Author Topic: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?  (Read 3042 times)

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Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« on: September 03, 2014, 06:01:58 PM »
I know the a lot of people will think of the Basque nationalists, and their connection to the Irish nationalists, and both of them with the "Palestinian" terrorists. But the truth is it actually has more to do with right-left than separatist-unionist. The main Basque nationalist party is EAJ-PNV, which is Christian-Democratic and center-right, and supported the Spanish Army against the ETA Marxist terrorist scum, but unfortunately they also condemned Israel. Meanwhile the pro-Arab anti-Zionist Right in Spain believes that Zionists are Marxists and so are all Basque Nationalists, and that they influenced each other. On the other hand many right-wing Spanish nationalists probably do support Israel. There may be a right-wing Irish nationalist party that supports Israel. But the majority of Catalan nationalists are right-wing, and thus pro-Israel. I've personally supported the right of every people to have a nation, and Basque is the last language isolate left in Europe. They were there before the "Aryans"/Indo-Europeans came, in other words they're descendants of the original Europeans.

https://www.facebook.com/havtaja?fref=ts
http://grietaenelmuro.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/por-la-paz-contra-el-boicot-a-israel-manifiesto-desde-catalunya-euskal-herria-y-galiza/
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/viva-catalonia-viva-israel-1.467213
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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 06:21:29 PM »
They should stand outside it. If there are Spanish people that support Israel, G-d bless them. As for their country, it's deeply antisemitic and infested with mudrats, so in the end, I don't think either of those sides are going to end up on top.
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 06:27:01 PM »
The phony right wing in Spain (the PP which currently holds power) is less anti-Israel then the left. The separatists both the Basques and the Catalan are Socialists and Marxists hence inherently anti Israel as part of the unholy Red-Green alliance (Socialism + Islam). Moreover as long as they are locked into Spain they remain preoccupied with their own internal fighting and so perhaps they might leave us alone.

Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 06:47:45 PM »
The phony right wing in Spain (the PP which currently holds power) is less anti-Israel then the left. The separatists both the Basques and the Catalan are Socialists and Marxists hence inherently anti Israel as part of the unholy Red-Green alliance (Socialism + Islam). Moreover as long as they are locked into Spain they remain preoccupied with their own internal fighting and so perhaps they might leave us alone.
It says on Wikipedia that the Basque Nationalist Party is center-right and very Christian, and so is Convergence and Union for the Catalans. I wonder if there's any party in Spain that's pro-Israel, maybe some nationalists.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 07:11:47 PM »
The terrorist group ETA are marxists. There are "right wing" nationalist parties in both regions but they haven't been the leading force towards independence. Your wikipedia source seem to confirm that though I just skimmed through it.
It says on Wikipedia that the Basque Nationalist Party is center-right and very Christian, and so is Convergence and Union for the Catalans. I wonder if there's any party in Spain that's pro-Israel, maybe some nationalists.

Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 09:50:36 PM »
The terrorist group ETA are marxists. There are "right wing" nationalist parties in both regions but they haven't been the leading force towards independence. Your wikipedia source seem to confirm that though I just skimmed through it.
I wonder if anyone realizes the stupidity and evil of leftists and the "Palestinian" cause. I have always admired Basque culture. I certainly don't want to see it destroyed. By the way, are you from Spain? Are there any right-wing parties which support Israel? Perhaps Alternativa Española?

Offline Super Mentalita

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 04:22:20 AM »
The phony right wing in Spain (the PP which currently holds power) is less anti-Israel then the left. The separatists both the Basques and the Catalan are Socialists and Marxists hence inherently anti Israel as part of the unholy Red-Green alliance (Socialism + Islam). Moreover as long as they are locked into Spain they remain preoccupied with their own internal fighting and so perhaps they might leave us alone.

Basques, Catalan, ETA, IRA, Scottish Independence... What is the bloody diffrence... Leftwing marxist scumbags.
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We are in a new phase of a very old war.''

Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 05:00:13 AM »
Basques, Catalan, ETA, IRA, Scottish Independence... What is the bloody diffrence... Leftwing marxist scumbags.
I don't think all Basques are Marxist. A lot of the neo-Nazis in Spain are very racist towards Basques even though their land is part of Spain. You can see the neo-Nazi scumbags at Alerta Digital, who are against Eurabia, but support "Palestine"- yes, I'm serious, Islamophobes for "Palestine"! They also deny the Holocaust, etc. However I do like Spain and would not want to isolate Spanish nationalists.

Offline edu

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2014, 05:13:51 AM »
Question: A win by which side will make it easier for descendants of Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity, to do Teshuva (Repentance)?
Here is some background.
http://www.shavei.org/communities/bnei_anousim/articles-bnei_anousim/jews-of-majorca-reconnect-with-their-roots/
Quote
Jews of Majorca reconnect with their roots

Agence France Presse (AFP)
12/03/2012

Antonio Pina poses at the facade of the church Montesion built on one of the first synagogues in Palma, Majorca, Spain

Centuries after his ancestors were forced to convert to Roman Catholicism, Antonio Pina could still find signs of his family’s Jewish origins in his grandmother’s kitchen.

As a child he was puzzled that she had separate plates for some foods and used chicken fat instead of pork fat when cooking meals.

When, as an adult years later, he set out to find out why, the 60-year-old chef embarked on the long path to converting to Judaism.

“I like to say that I discovered my faith through pots and pans,” he said as he stood in the kitchen of the modest synagogue in Palma on the island of Majorca where he prepares kosher meals for the local Jewish community.

“Curiosity about my grandmother’s habits in the kitchen turned into interest in the religion, this interest turned into love and this love turned into faith.”

Pina belongs to the island’s community of Chuetas, the descendants of Majorcan Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity in the 14th and 15th centuries and kept Jewish traditions alive in secret at great personal risk.

The Chuetas — whose name comes from the Catalan word for pig — number an estimated 20,000 of the islands’ 860,000 residents.

Like other descendants of Jews forced to convert elsewhere in Spain and other nations, the Chuetas generally have been reluctant to identify themselves as Jews, a legacy of the secrecy and fear passed down over generations.

But encouraged by an atmosphere of greater religious tolerance and aided by Shavei Israel, a private Jerusalem-based organisation, a small minority of Chuetas like Pina are rediscovering and reaffirming their Jewish roots.

Since 2010 Pina, who sports a cross-cropped white beard and wears a kippah skullcap, has attended classes on Judaism organised by the group as part of his bid to formally convert to the religion.

About ten Chuetas have already converted to Judaism, according to Shavei Israel, which helps the descendants of Jews who converted in Spain and other countries return to the religion.

Dozens more have attended classes in Hebrew and Jewish history, culture and religion run by Shavei Israel to learn more about their background even if they have no plans at the moment to convert.

“I feel we the Jewish people have a historical and moral responsibility to the Chuetas and we have the opportunity now to help those who want to return to Judaism,” said Shavei Israel founder and chairman Michael Freund.


Antonio Pina is pictured at "The Olivar" market in Palma, Majorca, Spain

“The best revenge for what the Inquisition did to the Jews of Palma is to help as many descendants of Chuetas to return to the faith.”

Most Chuetas bear surnames of 15 families with ancestors who were executed as heretics by the clerical authority known as the Spanish Inquisition. The names have made it easy to identify them — and discriminate against them.

They have historically been shunned by Majorca’s Catholic majority as well as its tiny, mostly expatriate Jewish community.

“We have suffered a great deal,” said Pina, who recalls being bullied in school for being a Chueta.

But in July Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, the head of a religious court in the Israeli city of Bnei Brak, officially recognised the Chuetas as Jewish after years of campaigning by Shavei Israel.

The ruling does not automatically confirm the Jewish status of every member of the community.

Chuetas who want to make a return to Judaism will still have to be vetted by a rabbinical court that will examine their family histories to determine whether they are Jewish. But the ruling makes the process easier.

“After years during which Jews did not consider us to be one of them, and goys, that is non-Jews, saw us as Jews, this decision is a real recognition,” said Miquel Segura, a Chueta writer who converted to Judaism in a 2009 ceremony in New York at the age of 67.

“It is an arrival at safe port because we were castaways from two shores and it was very sad.”

Unlike other descendants of Jews who were forced to convert in other parts of the world, many Chuetas can prove their Jewish lineage back hundreds of years because of the longtime refusal of Catholics in Majorca to marry them.

Pina traced his family tree all the way back to the year 1500 with the help of his genealogist brother and he hopes this will strengthen his request to convert to Judaism.

“There have been times where I have asked myself if all of this is worth it,” said Pina, who has lost several friendships due to his decision to convert.

“In the end reason prevailed. My roots are Jewish.”

Final comment. I haven't yet decided if I agree with Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, the head of a religious court in the Israeli city of Bnei Brak, who according to the story officially recognized the Chuetas as Jewish. I am worried of possibly  negative results of making such a statement (if the Shavei Israel quote is accurate).

Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 05:19:24 AM »
Question: A win by which side will make it easier for descendants of Jews who were forced to convert to Christianity, to do Teshuva (Repentance)?
Here is some background.
http://www.shavei.org/communities/bnei_anousim/articles-bnei_anousim/jews-of-majorca-reconnect-with-their-roots/
Final comment. I haven't yet decided if I agree with Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, the head of a religious court in the Israeli city of Bnei Brak, who according to the story officially recognized the Chuetas as Jewish. I am worried of possibly  negative results of making such a statement (if the Shavei Israel quote is accurate).
Sorry, I don't think I understood which side it was. I'm guessing the Spanish nationalists?

Offline Super Mentalita

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 06:17:42 AM »
I don't think all Basques are Marxist. A lot of the neo-Nazis in Spain are very racist towards Basques even though their land is part of Spain. You can see the neo-Nazi scumbags at Alerta Digital, who are against Eurabia, but support "Palestine"- yes, I'm serious, Islamophobes for "Palestine"! They also deny the Holocaust, etc. However I do like Spain and would not want to isolate Spanish nationalists.

Well i must say; We have in Belgium the Flamish side and the Walonian side. The Flamish (Dutch speaking Belgiums) want to be independent what i fully support. They are white nationalists (but yes they also have some anti-semites in their ranks. The only bad thing is is that they are into this pro-Irish nonsense of a united Ireland and they support the Scotish independence (Scotland will always remain a part of Britain by the way).
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We are in a new phase of a very old war.''

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2014, 09:20:29 AM »
I don't understand your question when mention "Zionist".  Why just Zionists?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2014, 10:34:06 AM »
Well i must say; We have in Belgium the Flamish side and the Walonian side. The Flamish (Dutch speaking Belgiums) want to be independent what i fully support. They are white nationalists (but yes they also have some anti-semites in their ranks. The only bad thing is is that they are into this pro-Irish nonsense of a united Ireland and they support the Scotish independence (Scotland will always remain a part of Britain by the way).
Hopefully the Vlaams Belang continues to support Israel.

Offline dimitry

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2014, 01:04:29 AM »
Why do you care about Spanish separatism? What does it have to do with Israel?

Offline AngryAnt

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2014, 05:27:06 AM »
Don't care either way as they're both scum.

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2014, 07:37:58 AM »
Hopefully the Vlaams Belang continues to support Israel.
I do not follow it that much at the moment but i believe they still do. They have a lot of Jewish voters.
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Offline Manch

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2014, 09:06:31 AM »
I don't think all Basques are Marxist. A lot of the neo-Nazis in Spain are very racist towards Basques even though their land is part of Spain. You can see the neo-Nazi scumbags at Alerta Digital, who are against Eurabia, but support "Palestine"- yes, I'm serious, Islamophobes for "Palestine"! They also deny the Holocaust, etc. However I do like Spain and would not want to isolate Spanish nationalists.

Being Islamophobe and supporting "Palestine" is not an oxymoron - it is just another way of sticking it to them Jews who are deeply despised throughout Spain. In fact, supoprting "Palestine" is never about islam or ayrabs.

Are there friends of Israel on Spanish right? There should be. A movement similar to Farage(UKIP), Wilders (Party for Freedom) or to Viscount Philippe de Villiers (Movement pour la France)
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Offline Southern Noachide

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2014, 11:04:29 AM »
The nationalists of the various Spanish regions are indeed left wing, as are the Celtic nationalists.  Nationalism was unleashed by the French Revolution and was left wing long before it was right wing.  Today most left wingers are nationalists of one sort or another.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of nationalists of other peoples, left or right, are anti-Jewish and anti-Israel.  Somehow they have located in Zionism the "real power" behind globalism, internationalism, and modernity.  For this reason non-Jewish nationalists, even the most right wing, sound just like Communists when they talk about Israel ("oppression," "liberation," etc.).  Nationalists all support each other, seeing in other nationalisms sister movements to their own, but the oldest nationalism in the world, and the only BIBLICAL nationalism, is not only an enemy, but The Ultimate Enemy.  Why is this?

I believe the answer lies in the "palaeoconservative" doctrine of "ethnopluralism," aka "a planet of peoples."  According to this worldview, each nation should have its own particular "truth," have its own "gxd," and live in its own "holy land."  Xianity, despite its universalist pretensions, is radically local- and national-oriented, so it is easily co-opted by these anti-Jewish nationalists.

As CHaZa"L said, the great sin'ah comes from Sin'ai.  The election of Israel is an objective fact of history, and thus stands as a rebuke and a disproof of all the pretensions of the nations of the earth.  Small wonder that instead of hailing Zionism as a sister movement they hate and despise it, often seeming to regard the very presence of any Jew (even one) as a sort of "black hole" which draws all non-Jewish "national integrity" into the abyss.

And while I used to be flummoxed by palaeo-right identification of Communism with the Jews, I believe I can see one reason for it now.  Like the allegedly "science" based Communism, Judaism represents something objective and universal, something that corrodes subjective national mythologies in favor of Objective Universal Truth.  This is the only thing Judaism ever had in common with Communism, and the identification of the two tells us a great deal about the mentality of the people who believe this way.

As for the historically undeniable proclivity of non-religious Jews to drift into left wing movements and causes, I believe (and yes, this is just a personal theory) that this is because Jews don't have the local roots that other peoples do--roots based in false local "gxds" and mythologies.  The Jewish People are not numbered among the nations of the earth and their roots are quite literally in Heaven.  When (G-d forbid!) Jews lose faith in HaShem, they have no localized heathen traditions to anchor them and quite naturally and understandably drift into universalistic movements.  And what could be more universalistic than "science?"  Perhaps this is all related to the fact that 'ein leYisra'el mazzal, which can also be read 'ayin leYisra'el mazzal--while all the nations have their own mazzalot Israel has none, or "Israel's mazzal is nothingness."

At any rate, alliances with secular non-Jewish ideologies is always going to be a mistake.  If Zionists want to make their case to non-Jews then let them make the case for HaShem and the Torah, which is the true coin of which all the non-Jewish mythologies is the counterfeit.  This alone will answer the emptiness of non-Jewish life and will ensure the safety of Jews among non-Jews far more than the three hundred year old habit of allying with the European "enlightenment."

Just one person's thoughts.

Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2014, 12:28:06 PM »
Being Islamophobe and supporting "Palestine" is not an oxymoron - it is just another way of sticking it to them Jews who are deeply despised throughout Spain. In fact, supoprting "Palestine" is never about islam or ayrabs.

Are there friends of Israel on Spanish right? There should be. A movement similar to Farage(UKIP), Wilders (Party for Freedom) or to Viscount Philippe de Villiers (Movement pour la France)
I don't know that Farage is pro-Israel. He's kind of libertarian, and I'm not such a fan of libertarianism. Liberty GB, on the other hand, does support Israel. Mouvement pour la France is awesome as is PVV.

Offline dimitry

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2014, 07:32:33 PM »
I don't know that Farage is pro-Israel. He's kind of libertarian, and I'm not such a fan of libertarianism. Liberty GB, on the other hand, does support Israel. Mouvement pour la France is awesome as is PVV.

Why do you care about these little nationalist groups that no-one heard of, and which have nothing to do with Israel?

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2014, 09:42:35 PM »
Why do you care about these little nationalist groups that no-one heard of, and which have nothing to do with Israel?

Rabbi Kahane did write about this in They Must Go, and he said it showed how even people with similar backgrounds will fight eternally over land, showing how hopeless the situation in Israel is. It will not change much in the world whether tiny islands separate from Spain or not.
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Offline Ukrainian Jew

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2014, 12:54:12 AM »
I don't understand your question when mention "Zionist".  Why just Zionists?
Politically I'm only concerned with Zionists. I don't give a sh** what anti-Zionists think other than that I oppose them politically. However, I'm certainly not suggesting that all non-Zionists should be considered anti-Zionists because many of them could potentially be Zionists if they knew more about what we're fighting for.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2014, 05:12:22 AM »
That is an interesting thought.

From my impression and experience, Jews both secular and religious are much more predispose to think about and deal with issues of universal and absolute morality.

The nationalists of the various Spanish regions are indeed left wing, as are the Celtic nationalists.  Nationalism was unleashed by the French Revolution and was left wing long before it was right wing.  Today most left wingers are nationalists of one sort or another.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of nationalists of other peoples, left or right, are anti-Jewish and anti-Israel.  Somehow they have located in Zionism the "real power" behind globalism, internationalism, and modernity.  For this reason non-Jewish nationalists, even the most right wing, sound just like Communists when they talk about Israel ("oppression," "liberation," etc.).  Nationalists all support each other, seeing in other nationalisms sister movements to their own, but the oldest nationalism in the world, and the only BIBLICAL nationalism, is not only an enemy, but The Ultimate Enemy.  Why is this?

I believe the answer lies in the "palaeoconservative" doctrine of "ethnopluralism," aka "a planet of peoples."  According to this worldview, each nation should have its own particular "truth," have its own "gxd," and live in its own "holy land."  Xianity, despite its universalist pretensions, is radically local- and national-oriented, so it is easily co-opted by these anti-Jewish nationalists.

As CHaZa"L said, the great sin'ah comes from Sin'ai.  The election of Israel is an objective fact of history, and thus stands as a rebuke and a disproof of all the pretensions of the nations of the earth.  Small wonder that instead of hailing Zionism as a sister movement they hate and despise it, often seeming to regard the very presence of any Jew (even one) as a sort of "black hole" which draws all non-Jewish "national integrity" into the abyss.

And while I used to be flummoxed by palaeo-right identification of Communism with the Jews, I believe I can see one reason for it now.  Like the allegedly "science" based Communism, Judaism represents something objective and universal, something that corrodes subjective national mythologies in favor of Objective Universal Truth.  This is the only thing Judaism ever had in common with Communism, and the identification of the two tells us a great deal about the mentality of the people who believe this way.

As for the historically undeniable proclivity of non-religious Jews to drift into left wing movements and causes, I believe (and yes, this is just a personal theory) that this is because Jews don't have the local roots that other peoples do--roots based in false local "gxds" and mythologies.  The Jewish People are not numbered among the nations of the earth and their roots are quite literally in Heaven.  When (G-d forbid!) Jews lose faith in HaShem, they have no localized heathen traditions to anchor them and quite naturally and understandably drift into universalistic movements.  And what could be more universalistic than "science?"  Perhaps this is all related to the fact that 'ein leYisra'el mazzal, which can also be read 'ayin leYisra'el mazzal--while all the nations have their own mazzalot Israel has none, or "Israel's mazzal is nothingness."

At any rate, alliances with secular non-Jewish ideologies is always going to be a mistake.  If Zionists want to make their case to non-Jews then let them make the case for HaShem and the Torah, which is the true coin of which all the non-Jewish mythologies is the counterfeit.  This alone will answer the emptiness of non-Jewish life and will ensure the safety of Jews among non-Jews far more than the three hundred year old habit of allying with the European "enlightenment."

Just one person's thoughts.

Offline dimitry

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2014, 04:06:10 PM »
That is an interesting thought.

From my impression and experience, Jews both secular and religious are much more predispose to think about and deal with issues of universal and absolute morality.


Is better if we focus on our own country, rather than some irrelevant and unimportant movements in Spain.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Where should Zionists stand on the Spanish-Separatist issue?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2015, 06:45:36 PM »

Is better if we focus on our own country, rather than some irrelevant and unimportant movements in Spain.

It's not irrelevant or unimportant, and neither is knowing how the world works. I say as long as the basque movement is socialist, it is bad for their citizens to seperate, and as long as it is anti-Israel, it is bad to have another Jew-hatred-obsessed nation in the UN. I say unless you get a guy like IZ here who is sane from Spain, against.
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