Author Topic: Happy Thanksgiving  (Read 1545 times)

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Offline Aluf Abir

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Happy Thanksgiving
« on: November 27, 2014, 12:06:23 PM »
Is it possible for true Torah Observant Jews to celebrate Thanksgiving and still remain true to Kahanist principles?

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/273594/halachically-speaking-thanksgiving-and-eating-turkey.html
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 02:58:23 PM by Aluf Abir »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 02:37:42 PM »
Is it possible for true Torah Observant Jews to celebrate Thanksgiving and still remain true to Kahanist principles?

Why not?   

As long as it doesn't condone remaining here instead of moving to Israel, what's the problem?

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 06:21:12 PM »
It's kind of Christian to celebrate thanksgiving. The Pilgrims were devout Christians were they not? They thanked "the lord" which means Jesus to them. Nothing inherently bad in itself but it's just too Christian to be celebrated by Jews in my opinion. Why hadn't the pilgrims "thanksgived" with a wild boar? That would make it so much easier on the Jews...

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2014, 02:28:28 PM »
may the horn of discounts bring happy sales this day.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline nessuno

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2014, 07:30:23 AM »
It's kind of Christian to celebrate thanksgiving. The Pilgrims were devout Christians were they not? They thanked "the lord" which means Jesus to them. Nothing inherently bad in itself but it's just too Christian to be celebrated by Jews in my opinion. Why hadn't the pilgrims "thanksgived" with a wild boar? That would make it so much easier on the Jews...
When I thank 'the Lord' it doesn't mean thank Jesus to me.  It means thank G-d.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 11:56:48 AM by bullcat3 »
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Online Lisa

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2014, 10:03:18 PM »
It's kind of Christian to celebrate thanksgiving. The Pilgrims were devout Christians were they not? They thanked "the lord" which means Jesus to them. Nothing inherently bad in itself but it's just too Christian to be celebrated by Jews in my opinion. Why hadn't the pilgrims "thanksgived" with a wild boar? That would make it so much easier on the Jews...

But it's customary to eat turkey on Thanksgiving.  I never heard anything about wild boars. 

Offline muman613

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 12:38:34 AM »
I posted about this last year, as I do every Thanksgiving and Halloween season... Read the entire article for more explanation and sources...




http://www.tfdixie.com/special/thanksg.htm



Thanksgiving at the End of November
A Secular or Religious Holiday?

Introduction

Thanksgiving is a uniquely American holiday. It is no longer (and perhaps never was) a celebration affiliated with any particular religion or faith, although some in America celebrate with religious ceremonies. On a social level, it is celebrated by Americans of a broad variety of religious backgrounds. This article discusses the halachic issues related to the different forms of celebrating (1) Thanksgiving that one witnesses in America currently. In particular, this article will focus on whether the holiday of Thanksgiving is essentially a religious holiday, a secular holiday, or an ambiguous one. (2)

 

The History of American Thanksgiving (3)

Before any halachic analysis can be done, it is necessary to place the observance of the holiday of Thanksgiving in America in the proper historical context. The first Thanksgiving day celebration was held in response to the survival by the pilgrims of the particularly harsh winter of 1622/3. Not only did the colonists themselves celebrate, but food was sufficiently plenty that even the Indians with whom the colonists were at peace were invited. This celebration took place on July 30, 1623 (in the middle of the summer). Similar such celebrations occurred throughout the New England area throughout the 1600's. (4) However, they were only local (rather than national or even regional) celebrations of Thanksgiving -- and only to mark the end of a particularly difficult winter -- until 1789. (5)

In 1789, Congressman Elias Boudinot of New Jersey proposed in Congress a resolution urging President Washington to:

* Recommend to the people of the United States a day of public Thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of the Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity to establish a Constitution of government for their safety and happiness. (6)

After quite a debate, President Washington issued the first National Thanksgiving Proclamation, setting November 26, 1789 as Thanksgiving and a national holiday. Washington stated in his proclamation:

* Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us. (7)

* Notwithstanding the religious eloquence of Washington's words (and even perhaps because of their overtly religious theme (8)) Thanksgiving did not become a national holiday. From 1790 to 1863 there were no national celebrations of Thanksgiving. Indeed, while proclamations of thanks were issued by some presidents, all of the presidents for more than the next seventy years chose to ignore the day as a national holiday of thanksgiving. (9)


It was not until 1846, when the unity of the country was again in controversy because of the Missouri Compromise and the problems of slavery, that the celebration of Thanksgiving as a national holiday returned to the national agenda. From 1846 to 1863, Ms. Sara Joseph Hale, the editor of Godey's Lady Book (10) embarked on a campaign to turn Thanksgiving into a national holiday during which workers would not be required to go to work. Her campaign culminated in President Lincoln's Thanksgiving proclamation of 1863 -- the first such proclamation of a national Thanksgiving holiday since 1789. Since 1863, Thanksgiving has been celebrated as a national holiday and a day of rest at the end of November, either the fourth or fifth Thursday of the month. (11)

One might ask whether Jewish law should simply defer to the American law determination here that Thanksgiving is a "secular" and not a religious holiday. Once this conclusion is reached, the claim is made, little controversy remains. The simple answer is that American law adopts a definition of "secular" that clearly is "religious" in the eyes of Jewish law. For example, in Cammack v. Waihee,(12) a court determined that the holiday called "Good Friday" was a "secular" holiday. So too, the Supreme Court has ruled that both Christmas and Channukah are "secular" holidays and have "secular" displays that lack a religious theme. (13) Certainly Jewish law views neither of them as "secular" and would not accept American law's definition of "secular" as binding on adherents of halacha. (14)

 

A Halachic Analysis of Thanksgiving

Having reviewed the history of Thanksgiving, it is now necessary to turn to the question of halachic issues involved in its "celebration". The first, and most significant issue, is whether it is permissible to eat a Thanksgiving meal, with the classical foods that American tradition indicates one should eat at this meal: turkey (15) and cranberry sauce. Among the authorities of the previous generation, three different positions have been taken on this topic, and these three positions have each been accepted by various halachic authorities of the current generation.

However, before these three positions can be understood, a certain background into the nature of the prohibition to imitate Gentile customs must be understood. (16) Tosafot understands that two distinctly different types of customs are forbidden by the prohibition of imitating Gentile customs found in Leviticus 18:3. The first is idolatrous customs and the second is foolish customs found in the Gentile community, even if their origins are not idolatrous. (17) Rabbenu Nissim and Maharik disagree and rule that only customs that have a basis in idolatrous practices are prohibited. Apparently foolish -- but secular -- customs are permissible so long as they have a reasonable explanation (and are not immodest). (18) Normative halacha follows the ruling of the Ran and Maharik. As noted by Rama:

* Those practices done as a [Gentile] custom or law with no reason one suspects that it in an idolatrous practice or that there is a taint of idolatrous origins; however, those customs which are practiced for a reason, such as the physician who wears a special garment to identify him as a doctor, can be done; the same is true for any custom done out of honor or any other reason is permissible. (19)

As will be seen later, there are authorities who favor being strict for the opinion of the Gra, who rules that the only time "secular" customs are permissible is when they have a Jewish origin. (20) According to this approach, secular customs created by Gentiles are prohibited even when their origins are not religious.

Additionally -- and independent of the halachic obligation to avoid Gentile religious customs -- Jewish law forbids a Jew from actually celebrating idolatrous religious events himself. Thus, a Jew may not attend an idolatrous "Indian" (21) office party or directly facilitate its observance. (22) So too, a Jew may not attend a birthday party for an idol worshipper if the birthday party includes worship of idols. (23)

A. The Approach of Rabbi Feinstein

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein has four published responsa on the issues related to celebrating Thanksgiving, all of which conclude that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, but a secular one. The first responsum, written in 1953/5723, discusses the deliberate scheduling of weddings and the like on religious holidays of other faiths. Rabbi Feinstein states:

* On the question of celebrating any event on a holiday of Gentiles, if the holiday is based on religious beliefs [by the Gentiles], such celebrations are prohibited if deliberately scheduled on that day; even without intent, it is prohibited because of marit ayin (24) . . . The first day of year for them [January 1](25) and Thanksgiving is not prohibited according to law, but pious people [balai nephesh] should be strict. (26)

Rabbi Feinstein reinforces his understanding that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday in a responsum published in 1980/5741. He states:

* On the issue of joining with those who think that Thanksgiving is like a holiday to eat a meal: since it is clear that according to their religious law books this day is not mentioned as a religious holiday and that one is not obligated in a meal [according to Gentile religious law] and since this is a day of remembrance to citizens of this country, when they came to reside here either now or earlier, halacha sees no prohibition in celebrating with a meal or with the eating of turkey. One sees similar to this in Kiddushin 66 that Yanai the king made a party after the conquest of kochlet in the desert and they ate vegetables as a remembrance.

* Nonetheless it is prohibited to establish this as an obligation and religious commandment [mitzvah], and it remains a voluntary celebration now; in this manner -- without the establishment of obligation or religious commandment -- one can celebrate the next year too with a meal. But, I think, nonetheless it is prohibited to establish a fixed day in the year for the celebration and it is only in the first year of the event, like when Yanai conquered, and then they had a party, and not for permanence. There is also a problem of adding commandments . . . (27) Even though one can question the source, it is still a real prohibition. (28)


Thus, Rabbi Feinstein appears to rule that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, and there is no problem of "Gentile holidays" while observing it. Nonetheless he prohibits its ongoing celebration as an obligation on a particular day because he feels that it is a prohibited addition to the Jewish calendar or creates a problem of adding commandments. While Rabbi Feinstein's objections to adding observances will be discussed later on, it is clear that he sees no problem in Thanksgiving's celebration as a Gentile holiday, and he appears to see no problem with eating a turkey meal on that day as a matter of choice, and not obligation. (29)

As proof to the fact that Rabbi Feinstein rules eating turkey permissible, one sees that elsewhere in the same teshuva Rabbi Feinstein states:

* Thus, it is obvious in my opinion, that even in a case where something would be considered a prohibited Gentile custom, if many people do it for reasons unrelated to their religion or law, but rather because it is pleasurable to them, there is no prohibition of imitating Gentile custom. So too, it is obvious that if Gentiles were to make a religious law to eat a particular item that is good to eat, halacha would not prohibit eating that item. So too, any item of pleasure in the world cannot be prohibited merely because Gentiles do so out of religious observance. (30)

Rabbi Feinstein then applies this principle to going bare-headed, and rules that even if some Gentiles do so out of religious fervor, since many people do so out of concerns for comfort, this is not considered a religious custom.

Rabbi Feinstein, in a recently published teshuva also written in 1980/5741, seems to state that in fact there is a prohibition to celebrate Thanksgiving, even though he acknowledges that Thanksgiving has no religious content. In this teshuva he views such celebratory activity on Thanksgiving as irrational, and thus prohibited as a form of imitating secular society. However, a close examination of that letter reveals that the only time Rabbi Feinstein would consider that conduct prohibited is if it was done with celebratory rituals associated with actually celebrating Thanksgiving, (perhaps reciting a text or singing a song), and not merely eating a meal. (31) Indeed, Rabbi Feinstein, in his fourth teshuva on this topic, clearly recognizes that even this is a stricture, as it is predicated on the approach which argues that secular rituals that have no religious origins are prohibited by the prohibition of imitating Gentiles (see the Introduction to this Part), which he states is not the normative halacha, but a mere stricture. In this teshuva, he states that the responsa block quoted above is to be considered the normative one. (32)

Rabbi Ephraim Greenblatt also permits the celebration of Thanksgiving by the eating of turkey. (33) He states that he has a responsum set to be published (34) that rules that it is permissible to eat turkey on Thanksgiving, because Thanksgiving is "only a day of thanks, and not, heaven forbid, for idol celebration." Rabbi Greenblatt adds that he posed this question more than thirty years ago to Rabbi Eliezer Silver and that Rabbi Silver also ruled that it was permissible to eat turkey on Thanksgiving. (35)
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Conclusion

Three conclusions to this article are worth noting:

Three basic approaches are taken by contemporary decisors (poskim) on the question of celebrating Thanksgiving. Some rule that Thanksgiving is not a Gentile holiday, but yet limit "celebration." They would, apparently, permit eating a turkey meal. Others prohibit any form of involvement in Thanksgiving, as they rule it a Gentile holiday. Yet others view the day no different from Independence Day and allow any celebration appropriate for a secular observance.

Indeed, there remains a basic dispute that permeates this review and divide contemporary American halachic authorities of the last seventy five years. The relevant issue is whether it is appropriate to distinguish between "secular society", "Gentile society" and "idol-worshiping society" in modern American culture. The validity of this distinction -- which was not generally made by the decisors of Eastern Europe two hundred years ago for the society of that time and place -- is extremely relevant to a broad variety of halachic issues related to contemporary American society.

Like many areas of Jewish law where there is a diversity of legitimate approaches, individuals should follow the practices of their community, family or rabbi, all-the-while respecting and accepting as halachicly permissible other community's practices. It is for the ability to respect and accept as legitimate the conduct of fellow observant Jews -- sanctioned by rabbinic authority -- that true thanksgiving to the Almighty is needed.

This article has so far avoided any discussion of normative halacha. Such cannot, however, be avoided, at least in a conclusion. It is my opinion that this article clearly establishes that: (1) Thanksgiving is a secular holiday with secular origins; (2) while some people celebrate Thanksgiving with religious rituals, the vast majority of Americans do not; (3) halacha permits one to celebrate secular holidays, so long as one avoids doing so with people who celebrate them through religious worship and (4) so long as one avoids giving the celebration of Thanksgiving the appearance of a religious rite (either by occasionally missing a year or in some other manner making it clear that this is not a religious duty) the technical problems raised by Rabbi Feinstein and others are inapplicable.

Thus, halacha law permits one to have a private Thanksgiving celebration with one's Jewish or secular friends and family. For reasons related to citizenship and the gratitude we feel towards the United States government, I would even suggest that such conduct is wise and proper.

It has been recounted that some marking of Thanksgiving day was the practice of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, thus adding force to our custom of noting the day in some manner.

Elsewhere in this article it is recounted that Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik would reschedule shiur on Thanksgiving day, so that shiur started earlier, and ended earlier, allowing the celebration of Thanksgiving. It is important to note the Torah study was not canceled, or even curtailed. Rather, the day was rearranged to allow for a full compliment of Torah, hand in hand with the requisite "civil celebrations." That too is an important lesson in how we should mark Thanksgiving.

Torah learning must be an integral part of what we do, and how we function. Sometimes, because of the needs of the times or our duties as citizens, we undertake tasks that appear to conflict with our need to study and learn Torah. But yet we must continue to learn and study. Thus, Rabbi Soloveitchik did not cancel shiur on Thanksgiving. We, too, should not forget that leson. Torah study must go on.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 12:52:52 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2014, 05:22:20 PM »
It was a jest of sort. I meant to say, had it been a wild boar instead of the kosher Turkey, then perhaps it would serve as a clear sign that Jews aren't supposed to celebrate it.
But it's customary to eat turkey on Thanksgiving.  I never heard anything about wild boars.

Offline cjd

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2014, 05:39:26 PM »
Empire has been in the kosher turkey business for years... I have even bought one or two myself... They even come precooked for folks who don't want to spend hours at the stove tending a turkey... I am sure that plenty of Gentiles buy the Empire kosher bird however I think the company  markets it's birds for it's Jewish consumers... I think a great many Jewish folks actually do celebrate Thanksgiving.
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2014, 05:52:06 PM »
Jews apparently like Turkey. Israeli per capita consumption of turkey is the highest in the world.

Offline muman613

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2014, 06:37:52 PM »
I subscribe to the findings I posted above. I do not celebrate Thanksgiving as a religious obligation and have skipped Thanksgivings from year to year. I understand the prohibition to avoid imitating the ways of the gentiles and thus have our own special 'Thanksgiving' celebration. Religious Jews should look at the day as a special day to be thankful for the opportunity that America has given the Jewish people.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2014, 07:15:34 PM »
Hams are a Christmas food. I wish they were a Thanksgiving food too because turkey gets boring.

Offline Aluf Abir

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2014, 07:35:01 PM »
Hams are a Christmas food. I wish they were a Thanksgiving food too because turkey gets boring.
Maple Glazed Tofu is a kosher ham-substitute
http://allrecipes.com/recipe/maple-glazed-tofu/

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2014, 07:43:52 PM »
Hams are a Christmas food. I wish they were a Thanksgiving food too because turkey gets boring.
I thought geese were Christmas food?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 02:08:50 PM »
Whatever you want to eat the most should be what you serve on any holiday. You could even have a bowl of beef chili for your main Thanksgiving protein if you didn't feel like turkey.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 08:46:57 PM »
Whatever you want to eat the most should be what you serve on any holiday. You could even have a bowl of beef chili for your main Thanksgiving protein if you didn't feel like turkey.
Only a Texan would eat chili on Thanksgiving!  :::D :)
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 11:13:05 PM »
I subscribe to the findings I posted above. I do not celebrate Thanksgiving as a religious obligation and have skipped Thanksgivings from year to year. I understand the prohibition to avoid imitating the ways of the gentiles and thus have our own special 'Thanksgiving' celebration. Religious Jews should look at the day as a special day to be thankful for the opportunity that America has given the Jewish people.


We don't thank America just like the Pilgrims didn't thank the Indians. We thank G-d. Do you mean we thank G-d for giving us the opportunity that America has given us?

For me, Thanksgiving is to thank G-d for the food. Yet most Jews that don't think it's a religious holiday don't even say the brachot before or after the food. My family thinks it's to spend time with family. This year they went to my sister's Non-Jewish "fiancé's" family so I stayed home and had my own kosher meal with real brachot.

The main part of a holiday is to observe the holiday. If you want to spend time with family, you don't need holidays as an excuse. Everyday should be family day. I celebrate the holidays correctly whether my family agrees with me or not. On Jewish holidays, my sister never comes. Thanksgiving is the only holiday she cares about. My mom doesn't come on Jewish holidays except on Rosh Hashana and Passover (My parents are divorced.).

My sister doesn't even care about Hanukkah. Most self-hating Jews like Hanukkah even if it's for the wrong reason.


Offline ChabadKahanist

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Re: Happy Thanksgiving
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2014, 12:48:08 AM »
I personally never made a big deal about thanksgiving when I lived in America,however I had relatives in Brooklyn who did & who are religious so when invited I went why not?
I just couldn't pass up being with cousins I like & having a nice kosher turkey dinner!!!!!
 ;D