Author Topic: What do you folks think of this article?  (Read 3749 times)

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Offline Southern Noachide

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What do you folks think of this article?
« on: January 27, 2015, 06:56:16 PM »
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/190580#.VMgcUSwsr-4

This article in Israel National News quotes "the head Nazi hunter at the Simon Wiesenthal Center" to the effect that Eastern Europe should not equate the atrocities of Nazism with those of Communism and seems to be implying (I could of course be wrong) that any museum or "memory" project that chronicles or memorializes the trepidations of Communism of necessity must be seen as belittling the sufferings of the victims of the Nazis.

As we all know, this is a very, very sensitive topic, and I know of no better place to discuss this issue than here at JTF.

I am aware that the Wiesenthal Center is a purely secular organization whose founder has often been criticized by Chaim.  I am also aware that the people of Eastern Europe are no saints.  But didn't the Communist governments of Eastern Europe already diminish the uniqueness of the Holocaust when they downplayed the Jews and victims, replacing them with "anti-fascists?"

I want to be careful as I have already been in a bit of trouble once today on Facebook...but it has always bothered me that in commemorations of Churban 'Europa' the Name of the G-d of Israel is never uttered.  Always it is implied that the Qedoshim were victims, not merely of Xianity, but of the religious impulse itself, and that the only thing that can prevent something like this from ever happening again is to wage war on the religious impulse via ever greater secularization.

I am a former Xian and a Noachide.  I simply don't understand why the Seven Laws of Noach are never brought up as a possible solution to anti-Semitism.  It's always religious and moral relativism that is recommended, implicitly or explicitly.  I'm also quite uncomfortable that a militantly anti-G-d movement is not considered a prime enemy of Judaism and something only Xians could possibly oppose.

I hope some of you will share your own thoughts on these issues.

Offline Lisa

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Re: What do you folks think of this article?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 07:43:31 PM »
Not surprising at all.

When anti-Semites are not denying the Holocaust, they're posting about how it was in response to communism, which in their view was invented by the JOOOS.  These people view Jew hatred as a valid response to decades of communist oppression at the hand of the JOOS (snort!).  They conveniently ignore the fact that Jews were despised in Europe for at least 2,000 years.

As for the Noachide laws, Jews don't actively encourage people to change their religion and become Noahides.  And if they for whatever reason did, they would most likely be victims of even more Jew hatred, along the lines of "You Jews control the media, the banks and the entertainment industry. And you killed our lord and savior," so how dare you tell us what to believe," etc.

So in a way, I think you inadvertently answered that age old question of why American Jews are so liberal and always vote Democrat. 


Offline Southern Noachide

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Re: What do you folks think of this article?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 10:10:29 PM »

As for the Noachide laws, Jews don't actively encourage people to change their religion and become Noahides.  And if they for whatever reason did, they would most likely be victims of even more Jew hatred, along the lines of "You Jews control the media, the banks and the entertainment industry. And you killed our lord and savior," so how dare you tell us what to believe," etc. 

Here is precisely where I disagree with you.  I believe Noachide proselytism would actually alleviate Jew-hatred.  In the absence of any message that HaShem has a message for non-Jews, Jews are perceived as simply being opposed to the religious impulse itself in non-Jews.  Jews seem to be demanding that non-Jews reject the idea of objective religious truth and sublimate it to a purely natural, rational morality.  Furthermore, while refusing to spread the Noachide Laws, many "Jewish leaders" insist on dictating internal changes to other people's religions--changes always bringing these religions into a more secular mindset.  Non-Jews cannot but resent this.  Wouldn't it be better to answer the deep religious hunger of non-Jews with Noachide Truth rather than with an implied (and sometimes outright stated) secularism?

Look...I admit that I'm a former Xian and that I'm a simple person.  I also admit that before my mind's eye at all times is the ancient Torah entity in all its fullness, complete with Qorbanot and other Commandments that simply cannot be justified by an appeal to secular reason alone.  This Theocratic entity (the only true Theocracy that has ever existed) should be the mental image of Judaism and the Jewish People--not Abe Foxman, not Simon Wiesenthal, and not secularism as an antidote to religious devotion.

Maybe I'm wrong.  I don't know.  But this is the only way I am able to see it.  I hope I don't wind up getting kicked off this forum, but I just can't take this Judaism-can-only-flourish-amidst-secularists nonsense any more.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: What do you folks think of this article?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 07:41:47 AM »
They shouldn't join together the crimes of Nazism and Communism. It is an attempt to deny their own responsibility for the holocaust becaus they ignore their part and just claim to be victims too like the Jews.

Bear in mind that over 75% of Jews in eastern and central Europe were exterminated with enthusiastic partisipation of local 'victims' like the Polez, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, and Hungarians. The Baltic countries are the boldest revisionists of all as they honor those Nazi allies who lec them in WW2 as national heroes- these are people who exterminated over 95% of the Jews in their countries. They even have the chutzpa to accuse Jewish partisans in war crimes.

Offline Southern Noachide

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Re: What do you folks think of this article?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 09:02:05 AM »
They shouldn't join together the crimes of Nazism and Communism. It is an attempt to deny their own responsibility for the holocaust becaus they ignore their part and just claim to be victims too like the Jews.

Bear in mind that over 75% of Jews in eastern and central Europe were exterminated with enthusiastic partisipation of local 'victims' like the Polez, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, and Hungarians. The Baltic countries are the boldest revisionists of all as they honor those Nazi allies who lec them in WW2 as national heroes- these are people who exterminated over 95% of the Jews in their countries. They even have the chutzpa to accuse Jewish partisans in war crimes.

Thank you, Zelhar.  I trust JTF'ers implicitly and appreciate your feedback.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: What do you folks think of this article?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 03:04:35 PM »
I should clear that I am not denying the communists were attrocious and their crimes need to be learnt and commemorized.

Offline Lisa

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Re: What do you folks think of this article?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 07:19:05 PM »
Quote
Jews are perceived as simply being opposed to the religious impulse itself in non-Jews.  Jews seem to be demanding that non-Jews reject the idea of objective religious truth and sublimate it to a purely natural, rational morality.  Furthermore, while refusing to spread the Noachide Laws, many "Jewish leaders" insist on dictating internal changes to other people's religions--changes always bringing these religions into a more secular mindset.  Non-Jews cannot but resent this.  Wouldn't it be better to answer the deep religious hunger of non-Jews with Noachide Truth rather than with an implied (and sometimes outright stated) secularism?

I think what you're trying to say in a round about way is that some Jews are perceived as being opposed to open Christian displays, such as nativity scenes, mangers, prayer in schools, etc. 

When you write about "Jewish leaders" dictating internal changes to other peoples religions, would one example be Abe Foxman's hoopla over that Passion Mel Gibson movie? 

I think I understand why you're trying to say.  I'm no fan of Abe Foxman and the other mainstream so-called Jewish leaders.  I think it's safe to say that no one here is.  The thing is, Christian Zionism/philo-semitism is a relatively new phenonemon.  Now don't get me wrong.  I like and respect the Christian members here.  But before there was Christian Zionism/philo-semitism, it was all Jews killed our lord and saviour, they're going to hell, they desecrated the host, their punishment is to wander from country to country, etc.  So in a way, I can understand how such public religious displays might scare some Jews.  The thing I disagree with is the dictating changes to other people's religions. 

As for Jews preaching Noachide laws, I still think it could get dicey. 


Offline maelgwyn

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Re: What do you folks think of this article?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2015, 02:23:19 PM »
Better   RED than  dead  ! :o