Author Topic: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians  (Read 2340 times)

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Offline Southern Noachide

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'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« on: February 10, 2015, 07:31:06 PM »
I would like to discuss something but must admit I'm not sure how to go about it.

Most of you know that I am a Noachide from a Southern Fundamentalist Xian background.  Unfortunately, this leaves me in a very uncomfortable and "schizophrenic" position with regard to my own people whom I oppose for their errors but love for their commitment to what they sincerely believe is the truth.

In all of Xendom American Fundamentalist Xians have a unique connection and attachment to the TaNa"KH.  The reason is simple: they reject historical Xendom (ie, medieval Europe, etc.) as a historical deviation and look to Biblical Israel as the only genuinely G-dly order that has ever existed.  This in turn gives them a deep-seated desire to somehow merge the two religions (G-d forbid!) into a single "Biblical" entity.  This makes them pro-Israel, but at the same time fanatically missionary, especially toward the Jewish People.

The thing is, I remember being one of them and being hurt at how our love of Israel was never acknowledged or always ascribed to some sinister anti-Semitic purpose.  And now even though I share the Jewish opposition to their erroneous religious beliefs and the horror at their proselytization of Jews, it still breaks my heart to see that it is still this one people, out of all the Xian communities of the earth, that are demonized--this time by genuinely Halakhic Torah Jews.

It is pointed out that there is an ancient prophecy that at the end of days 'Edom will cease his persecution of `Am Yisra'el and pose as a friend.  What hurts is that this prophecy is applied exclusively to pro-Israel American Fundamentalists and never to the stridently anti-Israel "indigenous Xians" of 'Eretz HaQodesh, whom Israel is so careful to treat well for "multiculturalism" points that it never seems to get.  Now members of these ancient anti-Semitic Xian communities are being recruited into the IDF with none of the vitriol being visited on them that is visited on pro-Israel evangelicals.

Again, I can understand the opposition to missionary activity.  But I cannot understand why the only Xians in the world to whom Biblical Israel is the one and only historical G-dly commonwealth (and who are deeply estranged from the older Xian communities) are singled out as the most evil, anti-Semitic, and dastardly of all.

Quite frankly, this hurts.

Orthodox Jews meet regularly with the anti-Semitic Catholic leadership.  Abe Foxman has had his photo taken with the anti-Israel Patriarch of Constantinople.  Greek Orthodox Xians in Israel join the IDF and no one says a word.  John Hagee sends money to Israel and he is treated as a soul-stealing demon.

Again, please do not misunderstand.  I am opposed to Xian missionary activity of any kind in Israel or any attempt to create a Judaeo-Protestant mongrel there (G-d forbid!).  But can't anyone see the pathos of attacking these people and these people alone as the unique enemies of everything Jewish?  Does anyone understand what I'm talking about?

Unfortunately no one, neither the enemies or friends of these Xians has the slightest interest in teaching them the Noachide Laws.  One hates and the other accepts them as they are, with no other alternative even acknowledged.

Sometimes it seems as if (and I truly hate to say this) Jews have some sort of instinctual ethno-cultural hostility to anyone and anything of Anglo-Celtic background from the southeastern United States.  We know that `Esav was the "huntin', fishin', farmin'" type.  Could "rednecks" REALLY be the pure 'Edom?  Or even worse (G-d forbid!), `Amaleq?

I just hope someone out there will understand what I'm asking and what I'm trying to say.

Feel free to send private responses if you'd rather not go on record.

Thank you.

Offline muman613

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2015, 01:09:22 AM »
There is not much to say about this without offending some people here at JTF.

I want to ignore the thread, but you pose an interesting question. JTF does encourage support from those who may fall into the category of Edom (The European Christianity which developed from Rome). Judaism doesn't have much good to say about Edom, except a few things.

What is true is that we believe that each human being is created in the image of Hashem our G-d, and each human being has intrinsic value which is essential for the unraveling of history leading toward the end of days. Each human being has been granted free will and it is his or her choice to love or hate Israel. How our free will is exercised is what we are being judged upon from heaven.

Jews have attempted (and still do attempt) to assimilate into every culture we have been exposed to (See Hellenism). While I believe a certain amount of assimilation is a good thing, I also hope that our host cultures can be understanding of the fact that Jews have special obligations which sometimes prevent us from being involved with certain events. No matter how much we assimilate though there are going to be Edomites who hate us for a plethora of reasons.

Anyway, I think that Christians who support Israel should do so without trying to proselytize. I realize it is not actually possible for a believing Christian do to this because their 'gospel' impels them to 'testify' and to bring non-believers into belief. I had this issue with my long-time Mormon friend who wanted me to agree with him of theological issues of 'Duality' and he suggested that we Jews were stubborn for not accepting his 'Savior'. Needless to say he found himself quickly outside my home and I did not speak with him for over a week. We have made up now, but I made him agree to never mention that man again in my home.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 01:28:24 AM »
Let me add the following.

I personally have no bad feelings toward Southerners. There is only one story my father told me about when he drove through the south when he was in the service. He related that a cop pulled him out of his car and started calling him 'Jew-boy'. To me that indicated an antisemitic attitude. But do I believe all Southerners are Jew haters? Not really. My father also told me that I should respect people of faith because they are more 'real' than people who have no faith. As I said above, each person has free-will and apparently my father ran into a 'stereotypical' southerner of the 1950s.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Southern Noachide

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 09:37:46 AM »
Before going any further, I realize that I made a mistake by not posting a link to the article that this is all about.  Here it is:

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/columns/fuchs-focus/cast-the-foreigner-out%E2%80%8F/2015/02/09/0/

Muman, I thank you for taking the time to reply, but if you will read the article you will see what I am objecting to.  It is not opposition to Xianity or Xian missionaries (as a former Xian Noachide, I am hardly sympathetic to the religion).  What I am sympathetic to are the American Fundamentalist Xian *people*.  They were born into their ethno-culture just as everyone else is.  They did not invent the religion they are saddled with.  They quite literally don't know any better and to their way of thinking are doing "the will of G-d."  There is very little Noachide outreach to them.  And the main point is that they and they alone have been made the object of the diatribe linked above while the ancient Xian communities (Catholic, Orthodox, Armenian, Syrian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Assyrian, Indian) are benevolently ignored and even welcomed into the IDF.  Notice that the article invokes the expulsion of "foreigners," yet this designation is applied only to pro-Israel American Fundamentalist Xians.  There is not a word about the ancient Xian communities in 'Eretz HaQodesh or even the plethora of Russian Nazis and Thai and Filipino workers.  Only American evangelicals are "un-Jewish."

I sincerely hope reading the article will help you to see what I am complaining about.

As to your father's experience, I am sorry.  Personally, I have never heard the expression "Jew boy" in my life other than when placed in the mouths of "typical Southern bigots" in movies, on TV, or in print.  Also, I never heard Jews blamed for the death of Yushqe (who was ben mavet for blasphemy anyway) until an episode of "CBS Young People's Theater" when a bigoted character made the charge.  The South is highly Calvinistic, and in Calvinism 1)everything was pre-ordained and 2)the death of Yushqe was carried out by "gxd" as an "atonement."  It is only the ancient (and for some reason "respectable") churches who hurl the "deicide" charge.

Offline Lisa

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 06:51:49 PM »
I think what Southern Noachide is getting at, since he refers to it in several posts is Jews preaching Noahidism to non-Jews. 

Offline muman613

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 06:57:03 PM »
I think what Southern Noachide is getting at, since he refers to it in several posts is Jews preaching Noahidism to non-Jews.

The Lubavitch (Chabad) Rebbe certainly advocated that Jews should inform all gentiles of the Noahide laws. He started a program which spread the teachings..



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/244376/jewish/All-Mankind.htm

For the longest time, man has been experimenting with a variety of ideologies, ostensibly to establish a truly civilized world in which he can live with purpose and in happiness.

The condition of the world today, however, bears testimony to his pathetic failure. Human logic alone simply cannot formulate a system of ethics and morality that will be universally acceptable and binding.

Witnessing the moral degeneracy of today’s society, what should the Jewish response be? Perhaps we should withdraw and become an isolationist community, concerned only with our own survival and developing our “chosenness” solely to our own advantage? That might indeed serve our own interests to a degree, but it has always been a key component of G-d’s plan that we, the People of Torah, should share with mankind the way towards hope and purpose.

No, Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. It does not seek converts. We believe that every person has a mission to fulfill in G-d’s creation, and can be deemed worth of the Almighty's rewards -- both in This World and in The World To Come -- providing, of course, that he or she accepts and follows the guidelines that have been Divinely ordained for him or her. For the Jew, this means the 613 commandments. For the non-Jew -- i.e. all “descendants of Noah” -- it means the basic program of ethical monotheism built on seven commandments, the universal moral code called “The Seven Laws for the Descendants of Noah.”

“The Seven Noahide Laws” begin with the prohibition against worship of anything but the One Supreme G-d, and contain an orderly system of ethical behavior, comprising the code by which all of mankind is obligated to live. The Rebbe launched a campaign to teach and disseminate the Noahide Code to the world at large.

There is an obvious question, “Why now?” Why embark upon this outreach program to the Gentiles at this particular time in history? Why have the great Torah-leaders of previous generations not appeared to consider this a priority? The answer is, that throughout his turbulent history, with very few exceptions, the Jew has not been in a position to communicate on this level with his non-Jewish neighbor. The Jew has been a victim of severe circumstances, and could not dare suggest that he had something to teach his contemptuous hosts about faith and morality.

Today, in most countries, the Jew is, thank G-d, free to speak his mind on almost every subject. He would therefore be failing in his religious obligation and moral duty were he to choose to be an “unconcerned bystander” and not share his knowledge and insights with others. The opportunity triggers the obligation.

The obligation, in turn, triggers action -- which has been highly successful on two levels, the governmental and the grass-roots. Some examples: Heads of State and government officials of various countries -- particularly the United States -- have issued proclamations encouraging their citizens to observe the Noahide moral code.

History repeats itself. As with many of the Rebbe’s past campaigns, the initial sense of “innovation” was total. The average non-Jew, though familiar with the Ten Commandments, had never heard of the Seven Noahide laws. Yet now, only a few years after the launching of the campaign, leaders in both government and education around the world are making increasing mention of the Noahide Laws as a cardinal foundation for ethical behavior. Seriously concerned by the erosion of morality all around them, they express warm appreciation of, and support for, the campaign.

Within the Jewish community, too, there is a greatly heightened awareness of the obligation to utilize one’s contacts with non-Jewish friends and acquaintances not only for material concerns but also to impart moral influence, to inform and educate about the Noahide Laws.

In summary: What is the Chabad-Lubavitch attitude to the non-Jewish world? Just this; that if we live our lives with Divine dignity and purpose, will inevitably inspire others; if we talk about a Supreme Being who created this world and continues to watch over it, others will begin to sense His presence; and if vociferously deny vulgarity and promote G-d-give decency and purposefulness, others will follow our example. In these times of moral crisis, an all-out attempt must be made to remind all people of their original purpose. The ultimate intention of G-d’s plan will be realized when everyone declares this world to be G-d Almighty’s dwelling-place, and recognizes that, “The earth and all in it is the L-rd’s, the world and its inhabitants” Psalm 24.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 07:31:35 PM »
Abe Foxman is a self hating Jew, he offends Judaism not just Christianity. With him I am more worried who he embraces not who he rejects.

Offline Southern Noachide

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 10:45:11 PM »
I wish to thank you all for your replies.  Yes, I am aware of CHaBa"D's role in spreading observance of the Noachide Laws (my own informal advisor is a CHaBa"Dnik).  But I still don't think anyone is really getting my point, and I'm really depressed about it.  Obviously it's not coming across and I don't suppose I'm going to be able to articulate it.  But I'll try one last time.

Has anyone read the article I linked to in an earlier post?  That is what this is all about.

The author, a Torah-true Jew (not "reform" or secular) has written a diatribe against pro-Israel American evangelical Xians.  I understand his concerns about missionary activity, but it hurts me deeply that he vents all his scorn and contempt on only this one solitary Xian community when Israel is full of Latins, Greeks, Maronites, Copts, Syrians, Ethiopians, Armenians, etc., who are the most anti-Jewish Xians on earth.  They get away scot-free.  He doesn't condemn them.  He doesn't call them "Brother `Esav."  Only people like John Hagee are the enemy.

I want to stress again that I do not share Hagee's Xian theology; however, I am a product of the tradition of which Hagee is a preacher.  It is what ultimately led me to becoming a Noachide.

Why is this author venting so much bile and spleen on American evangelicals alone?  Is there a sinister motive...to discourage "Xian Zionism" altogether?  To alienate such people?  To imply that the ancient churches are "not as bad" as evangelicals?  Because American evangelicals are an easy, politically correct target?  Because an attack on evangelicals is a symbolic attack on the concept of objective religious truth?  Because American evangelicals really are, G-d forbid, 'Edom?

Why is it American evangelicals and ONLY American evangelicals who are a threat to the Jewish soul?  What about all those Jews who meet with the Pope and with liberal Protestants?  Why is there never any Jewish outcry against this?  Why do so many people seem to hate us "rednecks" so much?  What is the cause of this monomaniacal hostility???

Does anyone understand now?

Again, here is the article that started the whole thing:

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/columns/fuchs-focus/cast-the-foreigner-out%E2%80%8F/2015/02/09/0/


I can't tell you all how depressed I am over this.

Offline muman613

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2015, 12:06:41 AM »
Southern Noachide,

I feel very sorry that you feel so upset about this one article and this issue. I have to admit I have not heard this opinion concerning evangelicals and as far as I know not many people hold this view (the one you say the author of the article expressed).

I will make a guess though, the name Evangelical itself gives off the impression that they Evangelize:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evangelize

Quote
verb evan·ge·lize

to try to convert (a group or area) to a different religion (especially Christianity)

Full Definition of EVANGELIZE

transitive verb
1
:  to preach the gospel to
2
:  to convert to Christianity


As such the name of the church itself is a turn-off to Jews. We do not proselytize. It is for this reason that I stated that it is only the few Christians who really get what supporting Israel means.

This is just my thought...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 03:59:28 AM »
Abe Foxman is a self hating Jew, he offends Judaism not just Christianity. With him I am more worried who he embraces not who he rejects.
I don't really think he is a classic SHJ, I think he is more along the lines of a (very evil) power-mad Jew, something like the Jewish equivalent of a Crusader. He will make alliances with anyone he thinks will help him temporarily.

Offline fibrogirl

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 07:13:12 PM »
The only negative thing I ever heard/read about Pro Israel Christians in Israel was a article by Moshe Feiglin written long ago. He wrote that he would not accept money from Christians in America because he believed the money came with strings attached i.e pressure to convert.

Until you linked to the article, that was the only negative thing I have seen about religious American Christians ever... in 17 years that I lived in Israel. That isn't much.

I did not have the patience to read all that article you have linked to. The writer was a bit long winded.

Point is that I don't think  Israelis (including the right wing)  are  negative about the Southern Christians.



Offline Southern Noachide

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Re: 'Edom and pro-Israel Xians
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 03:04:59 PM »
I thank you all for your patience and your replies.