Author Topic: The Jewish - Roman War  (Read 2528 times)

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Offline muman613

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The Jewish - Roman War
« on: May 10, 2015, 02:24:00 AM »
What can we learn from history? We recently remembered on Lag B'Omer the greatness of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochi and his illustrious teacher Rabbi Akiba.... The entire story revolves around the time of the great Bar Kochba Revolt.... The entire history of the Roman conquest and occupation of Jerusalem was recorded (albeit by the traitorous Josephus who joined the Romans).

I have found some interesting videos which teach about this history. Once again you must learn not according to one source or another as the first video is made by BBC which may influence somewhat it's opinion of the Jewish revolt.  But having watched it already I know that for the most part it is historically accurate according to Josephuses recollection.




I have not watched this talk about Bar Kochba but this professor did an excellent presentation on Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochi which I watched the other day.



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2015, 12:41:12 AM »
Just found this documentary on the 'Cave of Letters' which the professor mentioned in the previous video.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2015, 01:39:38 AM »
The Jewish view of who Josephus really was.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline shai77

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2015, 02:48:21 AM »
Josephous is an interesting character; it is hard to tell who he was or how one can judge him or if his reports were biased in his favor.

The sad thing to learn from the Jewish - Roman war is that it is a very, very difficult struggle; If people like Bar Kochba and Akiva couldn't finish the job and bring the Temple, I wonder who really could? Is it ever enough blood and conflict to get the Temple back?

It also tells of in-fighting and conflicts among the Jews themselves. Hearing that they called him son of a lie in the end just shows how precarious it is to pin messianic hopes on one person, even one as mighty as Bar Kochba; all men are mortals and prone to mistakes, ego and human nature and any man getting as wide acclaim as Bar Kochba (being hailed as the messiah) would have to have a supreme, almost superhuman level of character not to let it go to his head.

Moses had a very difficult task but he personally talked with and was led by God whereas it seems the leaders in these wars were maybe working on a higher level of free will?

I mean, imagine if you had routed larger enemy armies and everyone was calling you the greatest Israelite who ever lived;
I personally don't think anyone could handle it but I hope I'm wrong. If Bar Kochba was called a false messiah, I wonder what the true messiah would look like.

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2015, 04:32:43 AM »
he could have won to establish a Jewish kingdom.

Offline shai77

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2015, 04:44:18 AM »
he could have won to establish a Jewish kingdom.

Bar Kochba sounds like he was maybe the baddest m'fer in Jewish history; definitely the most hardcore potential moschiach. all the recent ones since his time have been these mystical kabbalist types who maimonides would call losers for being into astrology and charms and related garbage. at least bar kochba knew the real deal; military strategy and might mixed with some religious observance. it would have been fun rolling with a hero like that.

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2015, 08:11:06 AM »
all the recent ones since his time have been these mystical kabbalist types who maimonides would call losers for being into astrology and charms and related garbage.
Were they Jews? It is not Jewish at all!

Bar Kochba sounds like he was maybe the baddest m'fer in Jewish history; definitely the most hardcore potential moschiach. at least bar kochba knew the real deal; military strategy and might mixed with some religious observance. it would have been fun rolling with a hero like that.
For sure.

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2015, 09:59:46 AM »


The sad thing to learn from the Jewish - Roman war is that it is a very, very difficult struggle; If people like Bar Kochba and Akiva couldn't finish the job and bring the Temple, I wonder who really could? Is it ever enough blood and conflict to get the Temple back?
Spiritual weakness

Offline shai77

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2015, 01:27:54 PM »
Spiritual weakness
It would be definitely winnable if most of the Israelites were raised with education in what matters and worked together; there is little chance anyone could stand against a large group of unified Israelites working together towards a common clearly defined goal. I think it is much harder for a moshiach type leader to arise from a galut setting, like tzvi or any of the others from the latest exile; it seems unlikely for this type of leader to arise if he is not born in the land and doesn't know the land as a native.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2015, 05:47:40 PM »
Bar Kochba sounds like he was maybe the baddest m'fer in Jewish history; definitely the most hardcore potential moschiach. all the recent ones since his time have been these mystical kabbalist types who maimonides would call losers for being into astrology and charms and related garbage. at least bar kochba knew the real deal; military strategy and might mixed with some religious observance. it would have been fun rolling with a hero like that.

Im not sure what you are talking about here. As far as I learned Bar Kochba was the Moshiach according to the sages of the period (Rabbi Akiva among them). Aside from him the other false messiah I know of was Shabbatie Tzvi who ended up converting to islam. These are the two major false messiahs I can recall. And realize that Rambam is not the only opinion on who and what the Moshiach is. During his time his opinion was very controversial.

Concerning the mystical aspects of Judaism you seem to disrespect... They are fully part of Jewish belief. The Talmud discusses Astrology and Amulets although Rambam dismisses this...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline shai77

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2015, 07:45:17 PM »
Im not sure what you are talking about here. As far as I learned Bar Kochba was the Moshiach according to the sages of the period (Rabbi Akiva among them). Aside from him the other false messiah I know of was Shabbatie Tzvi who ended up converting to islam. These are the two major false messiahs I can recall. And realize that Rambam is not the only opinion on who and what the Moshiach is. During his time his opinion was very controversial.

Concerning the mystical aspects of Judaism you seem to disrespect... They are fully part of Jewish belief. The Talmud discusses Astrology and Amulets although Rambam dismisses this...

Well the Rambam said the wise ones studied military strategy and governing while the others turned to astrology and mystycism. I don't know what to think of amulets and such but I would not want to put too much faith in them but who knows maybe there is something to it. It seems that once you go down the path of amulets you can end up with red kabbalah bracelets to ward off the evil eye; it seems senseless.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2015, 09:13:53 PM »
Well the Rambam said the wise ones studied military strategy and governing while the others turned to astrology and mystycism. I don't know what to think of amulets and such but I would not want to put too much faith in them but who knows maybe there is something to it. It seems that once you go down the path of amulets you can end up with red kabbalah bracelets to ward off the evil eye; it seems senseless.

Obviously you are correect. Nobody says to put faith in amulets or astrology. Quite the contrary... I am familiar with the laws of kings you are referring and agree with the Rambam about this. Judaism clearly is against putting 'faith' or 'trust' in anything besides Hashem.

But Astrology according to Jewish sources is just the way of nature, that the stars exert influence through gravity, etc. and thusly influence the way the creation moves forward (of course Hashem places the planets and stars in the heavens and controls their motions {as recited in the evening Maariv prayer})...

http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/amulets.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2015, 09:18:16 PM »
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/214/Q3/

Helen Block wrote:

Dear Rabbi,

I am intrigued by the age-old use of kemiot (amulets), particularly ones with the human hand. Apparently the Persian Jews especially used to employ quite a variety of kemiot for protection in marriage, childbirth etc. What is the halachic and rabbinical positions on these?

Dear Helen Block,

Amulets or kemiot are mentioned in the Talmud in many places and are not forbidden as superstitious. The amulets mentioned in the Talmud were parchments with prayers in them written by pious scholars, and they are like continuous prayers. An amulet which is just a symbol or hand, while not forbidden, does not have the same impact. Nevertheless they can serve to remind a person of Divine Protection and Providence (the 'Hand of G-d') and to focus on G-d. As Maimonides states in the Guide for the Perplexed, "The degree of Divine Providence is directly proportional to the degree of attachment of the person to the Divine."

It's said that the towering sage Rabbi Akiva Eiger once wrote a very effective amulet. Curious about what mystical letter permutations or Kabbalistic incantations lay within, someone opened the scroll. What did he find? A single paragraph of Tosefos's logical, straightforward commentary to the Talmud! The amulet was "powered" simply by the merit of Rabbi Eiger's sincere Torah study.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2015, 09:23:51 PM »
I thought this was interesting....

Philosophic Differences between Rambam & Ramban    | Print |     E-mail
'Korbanot', Sacrifices.
The Holiness of Hebrew, Lashon Hakodesh.
Astrology and Black Magic.
Lessons from a nazir.
Going to a doctor.
Use of 'occult' medicine.
'Sefeika de-oraitta le-humra'.

Korbanot', Sacrifices

Rambam in his 'Moreh Nevukhim,' The Guide for the Perplexed, discusses the philosophy of the korbanot (temple sacrifices) and the choice of the different species of animals. He states that the types of sacrificial animals to be used in the holy temple (Bet Hamikdash) were chosen specifically because they were considered to be gods by the pagan religions that abounded at that time and some that are still existent. We were told to sacrifice these 'gods' to the One and only true G-d to inculcate within us a firm belief in their impotence.

This is the reason why we were commanded to kill a lamb on Passover, and to sprinkle its blood on the doorposts. We had to free ourselves of evil doctrines and to proclaim the opposite, then the very act which was then considered the cause of death would be the cause of deliverance from death. "And the L-rd will pass over your door, and will not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to smite you." They were rewarded for performing openly a service that was objected to by the idolaters.

According to Rambam one of the objectives of G-d through the Torah is to wean the Jewish people away from idolatrous practices. One of the missions of the Torah is to destroy the idolatrous taboos and superstitions that are rooted in idolatry. This goal is to be achieved by advocating the very opposite of that demanded by the surrounding idolatrous cults.

Ramban in his commentary on the Torah disagrees and states that if the whole purpose of the sacrifices was to inculcate within us a revulsion of these 'gods' it would have been better if we were to eat [these animal-deities] to our full, which would be considered by idolaters forbidden and repugnant, and something they would never do. He brings proofs from the Torah that G-d desires korbanot, the most explicit in the cases of Abel and Noah.

He advances two reasons why korbanot are required and even desirable:

The sacrifices are basically atonement for our sins All these acts are performed in order that when they are done, a person should realize that he has sinned against G-d with his body and soul, and that 'his' blood should really be spilled and 'his' body burned, were it not for the loving-kindness of the Creator, Who took from him a substitute and a ransom, namely this offering, so that its blood should be in place of his blood, its life in place of his life, and that the chief limbs of the offering should be in place of the chief parts of his body. The portions [given from the sin-offering to the priests] are in order to support the teachers of the Torah, so that they pray on his behalf. The reason for the daily public offerings (Temidim) is that it is impossible for the public [as a whole] to continually avoid sin.

The second reason he advances is kabbalistic in nature and unexplained.
The Holiness of Hebrew, Lashon Hakodesh

Rambam is of the opinion that there is no intrinsic sanctity in 'Lashon Hakodesh' but rather its sanctity is derived from its lack of vulgar and coarse language. Though he speaks of the "kedushah" of Hebrew (Kedushat Halashon), Rambam does not mean that there is a sacred quality in the language. He uses "kedushah" in the sense of moral restraint, pointing out that Hebrew has avoided coining words for the reproductive organs nor for semen, nor for urination or excretion, excepting in indirect language or for the act of intercourse.

Ramban however states that Hebrew is a holy language because it was the vehicle used by G-d to create the world and communicate with man, through the Torah. He states that according to Rambam Hebrew should have been only been called the 'modest language' not a Holy Language. Ramban discusses the idea of the holiness of the Hebrew language in his commentary on the Torah while explaining the phrase "half a shekel 'beshekel hakodesh' - of the shekel of holiness."

"Since the standard shekel of valuation and the redemption of the firstborn, which are holy matters, were given in that coin, as also all shekels mentioned in connection with the tabernacle, and all moneys the amount of which is specified in the Torah, therefore the Torah calls it the 'shekel of holiness'.

I am of the opinion that this is the same reason why our Rabbis call the language of the Torah "The Sacred Language," because the words of the Torah, and the prophecies, and all words of holiness were all expressed in that language. It is thus the language in which the Holy One, blessed be He, spoke with His prophets, and with His people. In this tongue He is called by His sacred names. In that tongue He created His world, and called the names shamayim (heavens), eretz (earth) and all that is in them, His angels and all His hosts - he called them all by name. In that language He called the names of the holy ones that are in the earth: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Solomon, and others.
Astrology and Black Magic

In his famous Letter on Astrology, Rambam vigorously denounced belief in any astrological influence over human life. He described the philosophical opposition to astrology as a thoroughly naturalistic one, which did not allow for the influence of the stars. The correct Jewish belief, in his view, agreed with this and also accepted the notion of G-d's Providence, thereby utterly rejecting any astrological influences. Rambam declared that he had read all the extant astrological books, and decried the fact that people naturally give credence to any doctrine that is recorded in a text, even if it is nonsense. Yet most medieval philosophers, including Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra, believed in astrological influences and even went so far as to claim that empirical evidence supported this belief. No less a radical thinker than Rabbi Levi ben Gershon (Ralbag), was a firm believer in the effects of the stars upon human life, and based his position on empirical evidence.

Rambam's view on astrology is diametrically opposed to Ramban's view that part of G-d's plan was that higher celestial objects do have some control over human affairs. While Rambam superimposed his view of Divine Providence upon a naturalistic order that excluded any possibility of astrological influences, Ramban built his doctrine of "hidden miracles" upon an infrastructure of a world governed by the stars. "Nature," according to this view, included astrological influences.

Ramban's View


A far cry from the rational view espoused by the Rambam that astrology, sorcery and witchcraft: "are all imaginary and foolishness which attract only those that are deficient in knowledge" is the view of Ramban.

In his commentary on the Torah he discusses the prohibitions of sorcery and divination and concludes that there is some truth to them, they have a basis in nature and are part of G-d's design of the universe.

Know and understand concerning the subject of sorcery, that when the Creator, blessed be He, created everything from nothing; He made the higher powers guides for those below them. Thus He placed the earth and all things that are thereon in the power of the stars and constellations, depending on their rotation and position as proven by the study of astrology. Over the stars and constellations He further appointed guides, angels, and "lords" which are the souls [of the stars and constellations]. Their behavior from the time they come into existence for eternal duration, is according to the pattern the Most High decreed for them. However, it was one of His mighty wonders that within the power of these higher forces, he put configurations and capacities to alter the behavior of those under them. Thus if the direction of the stars towards the earth be good or bad to a certain country, people, or individual, the higher dominions can reverse it of their own volition, as they have said, "The opposite of the word oneg (pleasure) is nega (plague)." G-d ordained it because He, blessed be His Name, changes the times and the seasons; He calls for the waters of the sea to do with them at His Will, and brings on the shadow of death in the morning without changing the natural order of the world, and it is He Who made the stars and constellations move about in their order. Therefore, the author of the Book of the Moon, the expert in [the field of] necromancy, said, "when the moon, termed 'the sphere of the world' is, for example, at the head of Aries (the Ram) and the constellation thus appears in a certain form, you should make a drawing of that grouping, engraving on it the particular time [when this relative position appears] and the name of the angel - one of the names mentioned in that book - appointed over it. Then perform a certain burning [of incense] in a certain specified manner, and the result of the influence [of the relative position of the stars] will be for evil, to root out and to pull down, and to destroy and to overthrow. And when the moon will be in a position relative to some other constellation you should make the drawing and the burning in a certain other manner and the result will be for good, to bud and to plant." Now this, too, is the influence of the moon as determined by the power of its [heavenly] guide. But the basic manner of its movement is by the wish of the Creator, blessed be He, Who endowed it so in time past, while this particular action is contrary thereto.

This then is the secret of [all forms of] sorcery and their power concerning which the rabbis have said that "they contradict the power of the Divine agency," meaning that they are contrary to the simple powers [with which the agencies have been endowed] and thus diminish a certain aspect of them. Therefore, it is proper that the Torah prohibit these activities in order to let the world rest in its customary way, which is the desire of its Creator. This is also one of the reasons for the prohibition of kilayim (mixing seeds), for the plants resulting from such grafting are strange, giving rise to changes in the ordered course of the world for bad or good, aside from the fact that they themselves constitute a change in Creation, as I have already explained.

According to Ramban the Torah does not consider all the practices mentioned in these verses to be abominations. He singles out 'meonein' and 'menahesh' as not included among the abominations and although the Torah restricts their practice by Jews it would seem according to his view that there is no prohibition for gentiles to engage in these practices:

The Torah states, For 'all' that do these things are an abomination unto the Eternal, but it does not say "for those that do 'all' these things…" because the Torah [in calling the practitioner an abomination] refers to most [but not all] of these practices. For the 'meonein' who divines by observing the clouds and the 'menahesh' who divines by means of the wings or chirping of birds are not abominable, and G-d did not dispossess the Canaanites on their account, because all human beings desire to know things that are not come upon them, and engage in what they consider to be pursuits of wisdom.

In fact 'meonein' and 'menahesh' were considered by Ramban to be praiseworthy sciences for the pagans to delve into, and even a wisdom.

Now all this is not considered abominable for the nations, instead it is considered wisdom for them. Thus the Rabbis said: "And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east. What was the wisdom of the children of the east? They were wise and astute in divination of birds."... And Solomon learned all this as part of his wisdom. Now, the knowledge [referred to by the Midrash] is the understanding of the chirping of birds, and the ingenuity to explain a matter through spreading wings.

However, these activities, though allowed to be studied by Jews are prohibited to be acted on only because we are to have more direct access, through prophecy and the Urim Ve Tumim, to the Creator Himself.

Now, when the Torah included the diviner by clouds and the [other] diviners with the abominations mentioned, it explained that, these nations, that you are to dispossess, hearken to diviners [by clouds], and unto [other] diviners for their wisdom is to know future events, but as for you, the Eternal your G-d has not suffered you to do so. The Torah is thus stating, "G-d has prohibited you these specified practices [such as passing a child through the fire] because they are abominations before Him and because of them He drove these nations out from before you. He further forbade the enchanters and the diviners to you, because He gave you great eminence in setting you on high above all the nations of the earth, in that He will raise up a prophet in the midst of you and place His words in his mouth and you will hear from him what G-d will do. To know the future it will be unnecessary for you to resort to a diviner or soothsayer who receives [the knowledge] from the stars or from the lower powers among the lords of above, whose words are not all true and who do not provide all necessary information. But prophecy informs us of G-d's desire and not one of its words will fall to the earth." It is this, that the Torah explains [that if ever an ostensible prophecy does not come to pass], the Eternal has not spoken. Thus you are His portion and His treasure, hearing His counsel form His mouth, while theirs is the portion of the constellations which they follow, this being the sense of the verse, but as for you, the Eternal your G-d has not suffered you so to do. This is the meaning of, which the Eternal your G-d has allotted unto all the people, as I have explained. And in the Sifre the Rabbis have said: They listen to diviners [by the clouds] and [other] diviners. Perhaps you will say, "They have a source from which to inquire." The Torah therefore states, but as for you, the Eternal your G-d has not suffered you to do so. This is proof to all what we have explained that with respect to the diviners some root of the matter is found in them, and therefore Israel had a [legitimate] complaint in being enjoined from making use of them [i.e. the diviners].

And on the next verse Ramban continues this theme:

'You shall be whole-hearted with the eternal your G-d.' The meaning of this is that we are to direct our hearts to Him only, and believe that He alone does everything. It is He Who knows the truth about all future events, and from His prophets, or from His pious ones, in other words the Urim and Tumim we are to inquire about future events. We are not to inquire of the astrologers or from anyone else, or by any means to trust that their words will be fulfilled. Instead, if we hear any prediction [of the diviners] we should say, "Everything is in the hands of Heaven, for He is the G-d of gods Who is supreme above all, the Omnipotent One over everything, Who changes the set order of the stars and constellations at His Will, Who frustrates the tokens of the impostors, and makes diviners mad" and we are to believe that future events will occur according to man's drawing closer to His service. Therefore after the warning against inquiring about future events from diviners, and of seeking on behalf of the living from the dead, he stated that you are to be whole-hearted with G-d in all these matters and not be afraid of those who tell of things to come. Rather, you should inquire of His prophet and to him shall you hearken. And this is the opinion of Onkelos who translated, "You shall be whole-hearted in the fear of the Eternal your G-d," meaning that you should not be deficient in the fear of Him, for tamim (whole) indicates perfection in a thing, just as "seh tamim" (a lamb that is perfect) means one that is without blemish and any deficiency. This verse [before us] constitutes a positive commandment. I have already mentioned this in connection with the verse, and be you whole-hearted.

Ramban himself in his commentary quotes the contrary opinion of the Rambam and dismisses it, basing himself on what appears to be firsthand witness accounts of bird divination that were successful and on various Talmudic and other rabbinic statements:

Now many scholars dispose themselves to be liberal with regard to these enchantments by saying that there is no truth in them whatsoever, for who tells the raven or the crane what will happen? But we cannot deny matters publicly demonstrated before the eyes of witnesses. Our Rabbis also, acknowledged their existence, as they have said in Midrash Rabbah: "For a bird of the air shall carry the voice" - this refers to the raven and the craft of tiarin. Birds in Arabic are called tiar and those versed in the divination of birds are called tiarin. This subject is also mentioned in the Talmud.

But there is a secret to this matter. We have already made known that the constellations have lords that lead them, these being "the souls" of the circuits of the spheres, and the lords of the tail and [head of] Aries (the Ram) are near the earth, these being termed "the princes of the quiver," that make the future known. It is through them that the signs in the birds indicate things to come, not for long duration or distant future do they tell, but only of events that are about to happen. Some make them known by utterance of bitter sounds [resembling wailing] over the dead, and some by spreading their wings. This is what has been said, for a bird of the air shall carry the voice - a reference to those who suggest by their wings.

According to Ramban there is some truth in Divination, sooth-saying and astrology but we Jews are only to believe in G-d alone and inquire through prophecy and the Urim VeTummim of the Supreme being who is in control over the whole system and not through His celestial deputies who he appointed under Him. Ramban utilized the idea that the Jews are directly under G-d's Providence and are therefore not subject to the celestial constellations as are other nations to explain a large variety of biblical verses and laws. Yet, he maintained that this idea also assumed a universe determined by the stars.
Nazir

Generally a sin offering is brought for atonement of a sin committed in error. But the Nazirite has fulfilled his vow so why did the Torah obligate him to bring a sin offering. Ramban states that the reason why a Nazirite must bring a sin offering has not been explained and he offers the following explanation:

This man sins on completing his vow, for until now he was separated in sanctity and the service of G-d, and he should therefore have remained separated forever, continuing all his life consecrated and sanctified to G-d...instead of going back to be defiled by desires of this world.

According to Ramban's philosophical perspective being a Nazir is an ideal and spiritually elevated situation. A person should aspire to be one and at least after having tasted the holy lifestyle should desire for it to continue instead of lowering him or herself to the 'normal' more mundane and material lifestyle of 'common man'.

Rambam addresses this issue in two places. In 'Shemonah Perakim' his introduction to Pirke Avot Chapter 4 he discusses the virtue of charting a medium course in life and the danger involved in asceticism. Rambam explains that, at certain times, many of the pious adopted ascetic practices as a safeguard against excessive involvement in materialism. However, they never regarded such practices as a goal in their own right. Others observed their behavior and mistook asceticism for an end rather than a means to achieve the middle path.

From his statements, it would appear that there are two drawbacks to asceticism:

a) It might lead a person to poor health, illness, and a lack of strength, which would prevent him from serving God as the Rambam states in Halachah 3.
b) A person might err and feel that he has fulfilled his obligation to serve God through these ascetic practices. As a result, he may never feel the need to dedicate himself to the service of God as He prescribed in the Torah.

There is a third disadvantage hinted at by Rambam's statements in Hilkhot Deot that it defeats G-d's purpose in Creation.

He states:

A person engaged in asceticism will surely become ill. Similarly, such people will become spiritually ill from using remedies while they are healthy. Our perfect Torah leads to our fulfillment, as one who knew it states, G-d's Torah is perfect, granting wisdom to the foolish, restoring the soul. [It] does not command us to follow any of these paths. Rather it desires that man should live naturally, following the middle path, eating a moderate portion of food that he is permitted to eat, drinking a moderate portion of what he is permitted to drink, engaging in permitted sexual relations in a moderate way, and creating a society [based on] righteousness and justice.

He need not live in caves or on mountains, nor wear sackcloth and (coarse] wool. There is no need to weary the body, or to drain it or oppress it. Our oral tradition has warned us against [such an approach in its interpretation of the Torah's indictment of] a Nazirite as one who "sinned against [his] soul." Our Sages ask: 'How did the person "sin against his soul?" They explain: "He held himself back from [drinking) wine." Can we not extrapolate from this? If a person who refrains from drinking wine needs atonement, surely this would apply to one who holds himself back from involvement in other worldly things.

Similarly in Hilkhot Deot Chapter 3 Rambam elucidates this point as follows:

A person might say, "Since[the pursuit] of envy, desire, and the like, are a wrong path and drive a person from the world I shall separate from them to a very great degree and move away from them to the opposite extreme." For example, he will not eat meat, nor drink wine, nor live in a pleasant home, nor wear fine clothing, but, rather, [wear] sackcloth and coarse wool and the like - just as the pagan priests do.

This, too, is a bad path and it is forbidden to walk upon it. Whoever follows this path is called a sinner [as implied by Numbers 6:11] concerning a nazarite: "and he [the priest] shall make an atonement for him, for his having sinned because of the dead." Our sages declared: "If the nazarite who abstained only from wine requires atonement, how much more so does one who abstains from everything."

Therefore, our Sages directed man to abstain only from those things that the Torah denies him and not to forbid unto himself permitted things by vows and oaths [of abstention]. Thus, our sages stated: "Are not those things that the Torah has prohibited sufficient for you must you forbid additional things to yourself?"

This general statement also refers to those who fast constantly are not following a good path, [for] our sages have forbidden one to mortify himself by fasting. Of all the above, and their like, they directed and said: "Do not be overly righteous and clever; why make yourself desolate?" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).
Going to a doctor

Ramban in his commentary to the Torah in Parashat Behukotai offers his view on a person turning to doctors for healing.

Ramban discussed the halakhic imperative for a physician to heal. He understood the Talmudic statement 'she'ain darchai benai adam berephuot' - it is not in the manner of people to use medicines (Berakhot 60a) to mean that the pursuit of medicinal aids was once a deviation from the norm. The ideal procedure that was followed in Israel during prophetic times was for a sick man to realize that his illness was a punishment from G-d (one of his manifold "hidden miracles") and to respond by consulting a prophet. Eventually, however, the deviation became the norm, and the populace in general began to consult doctors. Responding in kind, G-d left the Jewish people to the vicissitudes of the elements. The responsibility of a doctor to heal came, therefore, only as a result of lack of faith to seek prophets.
Use of 'occult' medicine

While Rambam is unconditionally negative to assorted magical practices he is positive in certain of their application toward medical practice. For example, the Mishnah in Pesahim mentions a "book of cures" that was hidden by King Hezekiah. Rambam argued strongly against the view that Hezekiah hid the book because people were putting their faith in medical books and not in G-d as the ultimate Healer. He maintained that the book that Hezekiah hid contained magical cures based upon the use of amulets. The author of the book had intended only that readers of his work study the phenomena described in it and not apply the procedures suggested therein to real situations. However, when people began to make practical use of the text, Hezekiah decided to hide it. Rambam's refusal to countenance, the thought that the Rabbis would ever restrict the scope of beneficial remedies, and his declaration that the Torah is interested in the well being of the human body supplement his disavowal of sham magical cures.

Rambam did concede the validity of empirical medicine, i.e., cures that "worked" even though their causes remained unknown, and did not advocate the position of the Dogmatic physicians of antiquity who exclusively based their cures upon "principles" (i.e., treatments whose causes were fully understood in light of contemporary science) alone. In Moreh Nevukhim (3:37) he stated:

You must not consider as a difficulty certain things that they [the Rabbis] have permitted, as for instance the nail of one who is crucified and a fox's tooth. For in those times these things were considered to derive from experience and accordingly pertained to medicine and entered into the same class as the hanging of a peony upon an epileptic and the giving of a dog's excrement in cases of the swelling of the throat and fumigation with vinegar in cases of hard swelling of the tendons. For it is allowed to use all remedies similar to those that experience has shown to be valid even if reasoning does not require them. For they pertain to medicine and their efficacy may be ranged together with the purgative action of medicines.

Three categories of cures exist according to Rambam:

Effective ones based upon the laws of natural science.
Sham cures of occult virtue.
Cures of "empirical medicine," a category which itself exists only due to our current imperfect knowledge concerning the science of medicine.

Any cure that is part of the third category which truly "works" would be permitted, and ultimately, with advancement of scientific thought, will also be classified with cures of natural science. If a supposed cure would be shown in reality not to work, it would immediately fall into the second category above and, from a halakhic perspective, would be subsumed under the prohibited rubric of darkhei Emori (Emorite usage). Thus, the general rule that "anything which pertains to medicine does not pertain to Emorite usage" remains constant, even as the class of specific cures may not. Hence, Rambam could state that the fox's tooth, which the talmudic Rabbis assumed "worked", in fact did not.

In light of Rambam's categories of cures and in view of his attack in Moreh Nevukhim against the use of amulets his codification in Mishneh Torah of the law that permits one to wear an amulet on Shabbat poses a difficult problem. One may only wear an amulet, according to the Mishnah, which has been proven effective; since it has a legitimate purpose, the wearer would not violate the prohibition of carrying on Shabbat. In this sense, an amulet may be compared to apparel. Yet Rambam himself forcefully de-legitimized all use of amulets, as he claimed that they did not cause any effect. How, then, could he allow one to be worn on Shabbat?

Writing in Provence in the beginning of the fourteenth century, Rabbi Menahem ha-Meiri states that amulets "work," not because of any intrinsic property they possess, but because people believe that they can cure. In his view, amulets are, in effect, placebos effecting psychosomatic cures. Although the amulets are not intrinsically effective, and only objectively work because one subjectively thinks that they do, this is irrelevant with regard to the law of carrying on Shabbat. If one's subjective point of view is that he is wearing a "tried and true" amulet, this fact, which itself generates the objective efficacy of the charm, suffices to place the amulet into the category of apparel and other objects that may be worn on Shabbat. If one assumes that Meiri's view was Rambam's unarticulated assumption as well, the problem in Hilkhot Shabbat is solved. In any event, this issue does not alter Rambam's general perspective upon the matter.

Ramban on Healing

Ramban discussed the halakhic imperative for a physician to heal in his commentary on Parashat Behukotai. He understood the Talmudic statement 'she'ain darchai benai adam be rephuot' (it is not in the manner of people to use medicines (Berakhot 60a) to mean that the pursuit of medicinal aids was once a deviation from the norm. The ideal procedure that was followed in Israel during prophetic times was for a sick man to realize that his illness was a punishment from G-d (one of his manifold "hidden miracles") and to respond by consulting a prophet. Eventually, however, the deviation became the norm, and the populace in general began to consult doctors. Responding in kind, G-d left the Jewish people to the vicissitudes of the elements. The responsibility of a doctor to heal came, therefore, only as a result of lack of faith to seek prophets.

Hence, when Ramban discussed whether or not one could receive medical assistance from demons, he operated with assumptions that were vastly different from those held by Rambam. Can a potent supernatural agent with whom the Torah has forbidden consultation be used in the context of medicine, a pursuit itself advocated only as a concession to human nature? In Torat ha-Adam he permitted such activity, as long as the sorcerer did not invoke the names of other gods.

Rashba recorded that Ramban personally used the lion-amulet, an example of an astrologically based talisman. Ramban's action dovetailed with his position that as long as no idolatrous practice takes place, one may employ means of divination or sorcery to effect a cure, even in a case where one's life is not threatened."

http://etzahaim.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=29
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2015, 09:36:27 PM »
I didn't mean to post all of that!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 09:53:08 PM by Ephraim Ben Noach »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline shai77

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2015, 09:47:40 PM »
that is an interesting read. I bought some of the Rambams medical books; there is a 7 part set of books but they contained quite a bit of strange advice taken from greek physicians like Galen. Overall some of the rambams advice seemed a bit overdone, saying not to eat in certain positions, do this after eating etc...but I think if you exercise regularly and fairly vigorously these things become very small factors. It is easy to digest food if you have a high metabolism but if you don't, no amount of techniques really works. In retrospect I did not like all of his advice; I was always healthy in general because I exercised regularly but after reading some of Rambam he sort of takes a very scholarly view on things, but I understand the world was different at that time. I dunno; wrestle regularly, shoot some hoops, work up a sweat was the way I lived. As for amulets maybe they do work but it seems like putting your faith in an idol, the work of man; it seems like an idol could be said to have the same placebo effect.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2015, 12:13:08 AM »
Shalom,

Once again I was to clarify that a Jewish amulet has NO POWER of it's own. The only way amulets work is if they strengthen the belief and trust in Hashem. Some people consider the Mezuzah to be an amulet (as we believe it provides divine protection to the house) and the pasuks contained inside the Mezuzah contain the Shema prayer (which discusses the mezuzah 'write them on the doorpost, etc.') The divine protection does not come 'magically' from the mezuzah, rather the owner of the house and those inside know that Hashem protects the home (and the mezuzah strengthens that belief).

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline shai77

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2015, 12:21:36 AM »
I never had mezuzah's growing up; when I lived in places with them or around people who felt the should make a ritual everytime they pass one I found it a bit awkward; something you are either accustomed to or not but I could not get used to the idea of blessing it every time I walked through the door; it seemed similar to an amulet in this regard, bordering on superstition but if it is a commandment then I guess it is a very good thing to have.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2015, 12:25:51 AM »
This discussion of the Jewish concept of Mazel (as in Mazel Tov) explains some of what I am trying to convey.

Midrash

Mazal: getting the straight goods


What exactly is mazal? How does it work? Most importantly: what effect does it have on our lives and aspirations?

Lets search Talmudic literature for some clarity.

We must carefully distinguish between two very different forces - both called "mazal" in Torah sources. One is mazal as an independent representative or guide attached to or associated with every human being, and the other is a blind, purely mechanical and natural influence (sometimes associated with astrology). Later we'll explore the possibility of a third "mazal" force.

Personal Mazal

Despite the general prohibition against carrying objects in public places on Shabbos, the Gemara does permit certain protective amulets (קמיעות) to be worn as long as they have already been proven effective (מומחה). Nevertheless, even among those known to help people, they remain forbidden as long as they aren't proven effective on animals as well:

"...But is there such a thing as (an amulet) that is proven for people but not for animals? Yes: perhaps a man, with his mazal, can be helped (by an amulet), while an animal, that has no mazal, cannot be helped." (Shabbos 53b)

"Mazal: a man's angel (מלאך) who represents him." (Rashi)


It would seem that the mere existence of this representative - which, by the way, does not seem to have any personal power - protects a person from damage even in circumstances that could kill an animal.

Similarly, a human being's personal mazal can protect him from violence as can be seen in Rashi's second approach to this Gemara:

"Why, concerning (causing damage to) people, does the Torah (Shemos 21:28) use the expression 'gore' (יגח), while concerning animals, it (ibid verse 35) uses 'push' (יגוף)? About a man, who has mazal, it writes 'gore' (but about an) animal, that has no mazal, it writes 'push'." (Bava Kama 2b)

"A man who has mazal: that he has the intelligence to protect himself...alternatively, he has mazal and thus it isn't so easy to kill him by simply being pushed with an animal's horn, unless he is gored directly and intentionally with the horn penetrating the body." (Rashi)

Besides being somehow responsible for his safety, a man's mazal can also represent him in the spiritual world. As an example, the Gemara tells us that the Jews, once they stood at Mt. Sinai and received the Torah, were able to shed something called "zuhama". But what about those who converted to Judaism only later? How do we explain the absence of "zuhama" even among converts and their descendants?

"Rav Acha the son of Rava said to Rav Ashi...'even though (converts) were not present at Mt. Sinai, their mazal was." Shabbos (146a)

"Concerning Jews one could always (explain their absence of zuhama) by observing that even if their bodies were not at Mt. Sinai [i.e, those who were not yet born], their souls were already bound in the bundle of the living. But one can't say that of converts [as, presumably, they are given new souls upon conversion]. So it must be that their mazal was there (at Mt. Sinai)." (Meharsha)


This mazal-representative can also subtly link us to spiritual events and influences that we might otherwise entirely miss:

"'And I, Daniel, myself saw this vision but the men with me did not see the vision, but a great fear fell upon them and they ran and hid.' (Daniel 10:7) ...Since (the others) did not see (the vision), why were they frightened? Even though they didn't see it, their mazal saw it. Ravina said, 'from here we can learn that a person who is frightened, even if he can't see anything, his mazal sees.'" (Megila 3a)

"Their mazal: each man's officer (שר) above." (Rashi)


Mazal's protective strength is affected by a person's own spiritual level:

"Rabbi Yossi the son of Rabbi Chanina said: 'this (that a wine wholesaler is not responsible for post-sale product spoilage) was only true if the wine was transferred to the buyer's jugs. But if it (spoiled while still) in the wholesaler's jugs, (the buyer) can claim 'here is your wine and here are your jugs [i.e., take them back and refund me]...But this conflicts with (the opinion of) Rav Chiya bar Yosef that wine (spoilage) is caused by its owner's mazal, as it says (Chabakuk 2:5) 'For wine betrays an arrogant man.'" (Bava Basra 98a)

"The arrogance of a man who prides himself with qualities that aren't his, causes his wine to betray him: people will think it is wine but it will be found to be nothing more than vinegar, measure for measure." (Rashi)


In other words, Rav Chiya bar Yosef's position is that the nature of mazal-influence can change - for better or for worse - according to a man's behavior and attitudes. It should be noted that Tosafos (Bava Basra 96b "ושמואל אמר") limits this effect to reasonably predictable phenomena, but maintains that a man's behavior cannot force his mazal to cause wholly miraculous changes in nature.

Mazal can be changed due to a person's physical circumstances. The Gemara relates a remarkable story about a messenger of the Angel of Death who accidentally "collected" the wrong woman. The angel was asked:

"How are you able to keep her here (before her time - rather than sending her back to earth to live out the rest of her alloted time)? (The Angel answered:) she was holding a hot poker in her hand while cleaning out her oven and it (fell) on her foot and she was burned, weakening her mazal." (Chagiga 5a)

Even the level of a person's confidence can affect the strength of his mazal:

"Someone who wants to embark on a journey and wants to know if he will return or not, should stand in a friend's house. If he sees his double shadow he should know that he will return. However, this isn't so: perhaps he will be upset and weaken his mazal." (Horiyos 12a)

"This isn't so: Because sometimes, even though there is no double shadow, he might return anyway. Nevertheless one should not perform this test because perhaps he will not see the shadow and become upset and his mazal will weaken and that might cause him not to return - and if he had not performed this test his mazal might never have weakened..." (Rashi)

"Because the Satan accuses (more vigorously) at a time of danger - like on a journey - and any little thing which can upset a person can (sufficiently) weaken his mazal (and provoke damage)." (ספר באר שבע)


Mazal as a blind, mechanical force of nature (astrology)

While God may certainly intervene at will, Chazal seemed to observe natural forces that, if left alone, would produce predictable effects on human beings and their environment. The Gemara (Brachos 59a), for instance, notes that the flood only began when God removed two stars from one constellation and only ended when He took two different stars from another constellation to fill the gap in the first. The implication is that the continued influence of the original stars, had they not been moved, would have ensured stable conditions.

Whether this influence is absolute or whether people - or at least Jews - can somehow escape its effects, would seem to be a debate between Rabbi Chanina (and others including Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi) and Rabbi Yochanan (along with a rather long list of like-minded sages including Rabbi Akiva) in the Gemara Shabbos (156a-156b).

"It was said: Rabbi Chanina says, 'Mazal causes wisdom, mazal causes wealth and mazal has an (inescapable) effect on Israel.' Rabbi Yochanan said, 'Mazal does not have an (inescapable) effect on Israel.'"

"Mazal causes wealth: because mazal is wisdom as was said (above) that (one born under the influence of) the sun will be bright and wise and (thus) mazal has an (inescapable) effect on Israel so that their prayers and charity cannot change it." (Rashi)

"Mazal does not have an (inescapable) effect on Israel: That through prayer and merits, mazal can be changed for the good." (Rashi)


The Gemara offers no obvious resolution to this debate. And even according to Rabbi Yochanan (who taught that the effects of mazal can be avoided), there are still limits to our self-determination:

"Rava said: '(maintaining) life, (and acquiring) children and sustenance do not depend on (a person's) merits but on his mazal..." (Moed Katan 28a)

"...That which the Gemara in Shabbos says 'mazal does not have an (inescapable) effect on Israel' (can be explained by saying) that sometimes (mazal) can change... (through some remarkable merit) but in a case like that of Rabbi Elazer ben Padas (Taanis 25a) it might not change at all..." (Tosafos אלא במזלא)


The mazal of nature also seems bound to natural cycles (This would also seem to be as clear an indication as any other that "mazal" has no power or free choice of its own, but is purely unconscious and mechanical.):

"Why should one not (have blood drawn) on Tuesdays? Because (the constellation) 'maadim' is in (the part of the sky dominated by) 'zavui'. (Why should that be a factor, after all) 'maadim is also in 'zavui' on Fridays (and we do have blood drawn then)? Since so many people ignore that risk, (we can apply the verse) 'God protects fools'(Tehilim 116:6)" (Shabbos 129b)

"Mazal maadim controls violence, plague and catastrophes and astrological confluences (involving maadim) invite demonic interference..." (Rashi)


And not only weekly cycles...

"Rav Papa said: Therefore, a Jew who faces legal proceedings involving a non-Jew should delay (any court appearance until after) the month of Av because his mazal is weak..." (Ta'anis 29b)

"As was mentioned previously: 'moral debts (naturally) find themselves paid up on a day of moral debt.'" (Tosafos)


Additionally, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi associated the influence of mazal with the day of a man's birth while Rabbi Chanina considered his birth-hour more decisive (Shabbos 156a).

The Rambam

Against this background let's take a look at the Rambam:

"In the days of Enosh humans made a great mistake and the generation's wise men gave foolish advice - and Enosh was among those in error. This was their error: they said 'since God created these stars and constellations to guide the world and (He) placed them in the heavens and honored them and they serve those who serve before Him, it is fit to praise and exalt and honor the stars themselves'." (משנה תורה פ"א עכו"ם ה"א)

The Rambam here possibly bases himself on passages in Chazal like Brachos 59a (which describes the stars' role in the onset and completion of the flood). He clearly identifies "guiding the world" as one of the stars' functions. However, we must be careful not to exaggerate his position.
Here's what he wrote near the end of the laws of idolatry:

"And anyone who acts in response to astrology and times his activities or journeys according to times determined by those who examine the stars, receives lashes..."
(משנה תורה פי"א עכו"ם הל' ט)


In adding further context to the various prohibitions of the chapter, Rambam concludes:

"And these things are all lies and falsehood which were used by early idolaters to mislead nations thereby to follow their (idolatrous) paths. And it isn't appropriate for Israel - who are a wise people - to be drawn after such foolishness and to even consider that there is any benefit to (these activities)...And anyone who believes these things or anything like them and thinks in his heart that they are true and wise except that the Torah forbids them, is certainly ranked among the fools and idiots..." (משנה תורה פי"א עכו"ם הל' ט"ז)

So, while the Rambam does accept that stars do exert some influence on nature, he clearly rejects any connection between them and the conduct of human society. This distinction is made much more clearly in Rambam's letter to the rabbis of Marseilles in which, while debunking the authenticity of astrology, he outlines the position common to all "philosophers":

"The general principle which they will all espouse is that all events involving people, animals, minerals or trees are all random. But the elements and all that is lifeless in the entire (physical) world all came to be through the the power of the constellations and stars which essentially came from God."

(see http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/mekorot/igeret-2.htm)

Rambam then writes that Torah belief differs with the philosophers only in that human events are not random, but are the result of Divine providence. They would all agree, however, that the stars have no influence on human life.

Now this most certainly seems to fly in the face of many of the quotations from Chazal we've referenced above. The Rambam was well aware of this problem and addressed it towards the end of his letter to Marseilles:

"Our opinion on this has always been that all astrology is false (in the eyes of) all men of science. And I know that it is possible you will search and find individual opinions among our rabbis, the sages of Truth of blessed memory, in the Talmud and Mishna and Midrash, that their words appear to show that the stars have such and such an influence at the moment of a man's birth. Do not consider this a problem, for (just as) it isn't appropriate to abandon practical halacha to chase after (obscure) challenges and responses. So too, it is not appropriate for a man to leave intelligent matters whose proofs have already been confirmed, and shake them from his sleeves to accept instead the words of one minority opinion from among the sages...for it is possible that (those words which seemed to validate astrology) were really only meant as a hint to some profound (Torah truth)."

The Third "Mazal"

Rabbi Meir, in the final Mishna of mesechte Kiddushin, teaches that a person should make every reasonable effort to find success in a trade...

"...and then pray to the One to Whom belongs all wealth and to Whom belongs all property. For there is no trade in which is not found both poverty and wealth, for poverty does not come from (a man's) trade and wealth does not come from (a man's) trade. Rather, everything flows from (a man's) merit (זכותו)."
Tosafos (Kiddushin 82a), while commenting on the Mishna, wrote

"Rather, everything flows from (a man's) merit: meaning, according to his mazal, for 'children, life and provisions do not depend on merit, but on mazal'."

But why, wondered the Tiferes Yisrael (echoing questions of the Tosafos Yom Tov), would Tosafos attribute wealth to mazal rather than merit (besides the fact that mazal and merit are quite distinct from each other): if mazal determines a man's financial fate, then why bother praying?

To this, the Tiferes Yisrael offers a creative solution. The term used by the Mishna (זכותו) doesn't actually mean "merit", but rather, its more common Talmudic translation: "possession" or "rights" (example: "<יש לו זכות בו"). In this case, the Mishna means to teach us that, besides prayer, our financial success or failure largely depends on the peculiar combination of circumstances into which God decreed each of us be born (that which can truly be said to be "ours"). After all, so much of a person's success does depend on his background and social standing. So, for instance, influences like one's inborn nature, family, environment, diet and education all play significant roles in his future chances at success.

This, of course, has nothing to do with any astrological influences (Tiferes Yisrael firmly follows the Rambam's approach), but is a direct result of God's specific plan for each human being. And, as did Tosafos, it is therefore quite reasonable to characterize it as mazal.

The Bottom Line

While it seems clear that our connection to the spiritual world is sometimes characterized by Chazal as "mazal", this knowledge would seem to have few, if any, practical applications - beyond the general need to care for our own physical safety and spiritual wellbeing.

It is certainly necessary to steadfastly avoid astrological advice - whether because Torah law forbids it or, according to Rambam, because common sense should guide us away from foolishness. Either way, in our search for financial success, there would seem to be very little room in Judaism for reliance on anything besides trust in God and hard work (in that order).

And we can take comfort in the knowledge that a great many of the crucial elements which will determine our success were given to us by our all-knowing and most-kind God.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2015, 12:26:25 AM »
I never had mezuzah's growing up; when I lived in places with them or around people who felt the should make a ritual everytime they pass one I found it a bit awkward; something you are either accustomed to or not but I could not get used to the idea of blessing it every time I walked through the door; it seemed similar to an amulet in this regard, bordering on superstition but if it is a commandment then I guess it is a very good thing to have.

Indeed Mezuzah is a commandment contained in the same section of Shema as Tefillin...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2015, 12:37:56 AM »
There are many Rambams which I can find opposing opinions for. For instance in the piece EBN posted above it discusses how Rambam states that 'asceticism' is not a path of Torah. And yet there is a famous Pirkie Avot which seems to advise (from Rabbis of the Talmudic period) that some asceticism may be good for the soul.

Chapter 6 Mishnah 4

"This is the way of the Torah: Bread and salt you will eat, measured water you will drink, on the ground you will sleep, a life of suffering you will live, and in the Torah you will labor. If you do this, 'You are fortunate and it is good for you' (Psalms 128:2). 'You are fortunate' -- in this world; 'and it is good for you' -- in the World to Come."

Learn how to rectify this opinion with Rambams @
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-4.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2015, 12:57:25 AM »
Back to the topic... Here is a talk about Roman - Jewish relations during this period.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yehudayaakov

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2015, 09:18:10 AM »
Reminder to all that...
What can we learn from history?


I have not watched this talk about Bar Kochba but this professor did an excellent presentation on Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochi which I watched the other day.



was first sentence...!!! and also vids no showing up  :'(

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2015, 10:32:00 AM »
Im not sure what you are talking about here. As far as I learned Bar Kochba was the Moshiach according to the sages of the period (Rabbi Akiva among them).

Well, no.  They thought he could be the moschiach and thought he was until they later figured out he wasn't.  They figured this out because he failed and did not get to build the Temple and thereby proved he was not moschiach.  That is absolute proof.  Of course, he could have if he succeeded but did not.

He was not a "false messiah" in the sense that shabtai tzvi or other cult leaders are.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Jewish - Roman War
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2015, 10:40:55 AM »

But Astrology according to Jewish sources is just the way of nature, that the stars exert influence through gravity, etc. and thusly influence the way the creation moves forward (of course Hashem places the planets and stars in the heavens and controls their motions {as recited in the evening Maariv prayer})...

http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/amulets.htm

Influence through gravity?  Astrology is an ancient subject far predating knowledge of the force of gravity.  There is a mathematical order to the stars and their movements involving the laws of physics, the study of which is called astronomy. But that is an actual science.

Does today's version of astrology try to incoporate modern day science into its explanations?  Doesn't seem likely.