Author Topic: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage  (Read 2601 times)

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Offline edu

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KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« on: September 07, 2015, 05:11:08 AM »
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/423579/kim-davis-jail-supreme-court-lawless

According to the above article, Kim Davis is going to jail rather than comply with Court imposed Orders to Require Government to recognize Gay Marriage.

Given how bad things have gotten concerning Gay Marriage, this is a step in the right direction. Waiting for Republicans to slowly win elections and appoint the right judges is a tactic that hasn't worked so far on other issues and I don't think it will solve the problem on this issue either.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 03:53:48 PM by edu »

Offline Zelhar

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2015, 06:02:26 AM »
She is not a republican but a dumb Democrat. Sending her to jail is way over-reaction however she should be removed from her position since she refuses to perform her job.

Offline Joe Gutfeld

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2015, 08:36:57 AM »
I hope that her case goes all the way to the supreme court.   And that I hope that she sues the state of Ketucky.

Offline eb22

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2015, 11:32:13 AM »
I hope that her case goes all the way to the supreme court.   And that I hope that she sues the state of Ketucky.

Considering the track record of this Supreme Court the last few months,  I'm not optimistic at all that the outcome will be favorable for Kim Davis and the United States of America.   
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

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Offline Joe Gutfeld

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2015, 07:31:34 PM »
I have to agree eb22

Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2015, 02:02:27 PM »
This is the government that now worships homosexuality which is sin and is trying to force others to accept this sin.  1 Corinthians 6:9-10....Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor swindlers, will inherit the Kingdom of God.    It has also never been proved that people are born homosexuals.  This is a choice to go off on the path of sexual perversion.

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2015, 02:04:38 PM »
what a mess. no wonder they call it a circus.
circus maximus.
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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2015, 08:49:37 PM »
She is not a republican but a dumb Democrat. Sending her to jail is way over-reaction however she should be removed from her position since she refuses to perform her job.

What she is doesn't matter, if she was a muslim communist, it would still be a good thing to do. Since the supreme court is illegally forcing her to do something in her work, she is doing her job, just not doing a crime against Hashem.
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2015, 05:19:20 AM »
She has a bureaucratic job to do as a clerk which she refuses to do, including signing marriage licenses for straits. It doesn't mean her signature gives a blessing or any sort of religious approval by her personally.

There is only one legitimate justification for her defiance, and it is possibly a big one, that is that the supreme court may have stepped beyond its constitutional jurisdiction in forcing gay marriage as the law of the land. So, her argument should be she defies the legitimacy of the supreme court's decision and hence continue to act according the the written law and disregard the supreme court instruction. It has nothing to do with religion.

What she is doesn't matter, if she was a muslim communist, it would still be a good thing to do. Since the supreme court is illegally forcing her to do something in her work, she is doing her job, just not doing a crime against Hashem.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2015, 06:54:40 AM »
She has a bureaucratic job to do as a clerk which she refuses to do, including signing marriage licenses for straits. It doesn't mean her signature gives a blessing or any sort of religious approval by her personally.

There is only one legitimate justification for her defiance, and it is possibly a big one, that is that the supreme court may have stepped beyond its constitutional jurisdiction in forcing gay marriage as the law of the land. So, her argument should be she defies the legitimacy of the supreme court's decision and hence continue to act according the the written law and disregard the supreme court instruction. It has nothing to do with religion.

It is common for Xtians to identify entirely with their religion. Having been in cults through everything in the middle to Jesuit school, on cults they're incapable of seeing themselves as anything but a "member", a tool in the system, and even the most intellectual and philosophical priest or parishioner will identify as Catholic first, a person second (in name only Catholics with no actual belief involved are a complicated exception, with different levels). This is hard to understand from a Jewish perspective (outside of certain "closest cult to Judaism" divergent cults) as mitzvot and practicing the religion is involved with virtually every aspect of life, but the difference is that since there's nothing to know for certain, there's no way to prove intellectually that they are doing the right thing (excluding deeds that are congruent with Torah, not that they will likely learn these intellectual justifications), so they have to embody their religion, and what is typically told to new missionaries before setting out to hunt is "let them see the love of Beesus inside of you" for cults, to cause lonely and broken people to desire to be less sad, and be drawn to them because they don't look like they are, and more mainstream groups follow "by their fruits you shall know them" as a missionizing tactic, being that standing for their religion shows strength, and since many of their attitudes are taken from Torah, and therefore are beneficial, they believe that others will be drawn to them through this.

Obviously, she made a political argument she put under the mantle of "because of my religion". This is tactical, I've seen it done before as a way of playing on fellow believers' loyalty to the religion, so they might stand with her, but primarily (besides the fact that if she says she does not recognize the authority of the supreme court, the supreme court won't be very nice, claiming religious freedom gives her something she can argue in court, ironically) it serves as a moral justification for the deed; "the supreme court has done all these things illegally, but because of my morals, this is where i take a stand".


Source where she won't issue license to normal couples. As a Jew, you know that signing such a document would mean you have a hand in it. I personally thought "why doesn't she resign" first, but it's the supreme court doing the illegal action, they're the ones that should be forced out. There is no change unless you take a stand. I personally talked an American who Xtian on the fence about the candidates, and he told me this decision by Ted Cruz to get her out of lockup has made him and his family agree with my assertion that he is the best candidate, and they'll be supporting him.

If every clerk refused to do it, and others with "bureaucratic jobs" refused to sign a paper to be handed to Hashem that reads "destroy here", America could fight off this illegal action.  So now to get back to my first point a stronger argument than the fact that it violates the law of America, though that's the one you're claiming is OK, is that it violates the laws of heaven. I'm not a posek to decide if signing a paper does anything, but I read the article that said the degenerates that wanted to "marry" were unable to because of one resilient clerk. She stopped American tax payers from proving money to pay for someone to engage in sinful acts, even if only for a short while. Maybe she should be fired from her job, someone brought up the argument of the tree humper who didn't want to issue conceal-carry permits, and while the argument has no bearing, since the clerk can only use as backing that he feels that's what right, he stands against the law, the court and G-d didn't leave any books around backing him, still I think a person that refuses to issue a conceal carry permit should be fired, and if this person refused to issue a licence to a straight person, they should be fired. If they live in a country like Canada where the majority does support paying homosexuals to sodomize each other, then she shouldn't take that job (that'd be outta the stage 1 jihad playbook) and if she had done this, she should be fired, which would be for her own good anyways.

She has taken a stand and said "i don't have to give up my job or my America, I want to do what is right and not sign my country's death warrant to Hashem (I know, but still better someone who "fears" his statue than someone who "fears" nothing), I believe that we can live in a country where government workers are not forced to violate G-d's laws (and she should rightfully add, the constitution) and I can do what is right without having to run from evil, I take a stand on this".

I don't care if she's a democrat, and I don't care what religion she said it for. She's being a better human than the clerks that are signing away Americans to a life of supporting degeneracy, and their country to destruction because they were "just doing their jobs".

Ted Cruz told entire states to ignore the supreme courts illegal decision and not to let them force them do this. Everyone should oppose this in any way possible in their daily lives. This woman is an example that America still has what it takes to fight for what is right. It does have to do with religion, just not the way she said it, but if she was a pastafarian, invented a verse of the magical unicorn that said she can't do that, and used that as her justification, I'd still side with her, because she already has the support of the law and the American people behind her, and we can get to all the things that are wrong with her and everyone and thing else in the solar system after we congratulate her for doing the right thing. Her religion argument is not "because i want to make my religion reign supreme, it's "you're forcing me to be a part of something that me or no one else wants or agrees with, and I won't give up my job or turn my job into an evil position".

If you were the clerk in a bureaucratic job, and a bill from Obama just passed with a 2/3 congress majority backing it, would you sign the Iran nuclear deal into existence, if you could stop it, or at least delay it while they're figuring out how to best humiliate you before throwing you in jail? You don't get the defense of the law, just Hashem on this one, would you morally justify your action and say it is right not to do this and what would you say to another man that does it and uses Judaism to back his decision?

The Iranian nuclear deal and everything in the first place is all in G-d's control and will. If he doesn't think America should get nuked, America won't get nuked. G-d bless him, but that action does more to stop a nuclear holocaust than 10 perfect Ted Cruz speeches on Iran. Get a society that can stand up to sneaky judges, you might get one that can stand to sneaky Arabs that control the Persians.
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Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2015, 10:22:01 AM »
She is standing with God over man.  God is the creator of marriage not man in Genesis 2:24.  Marriage has already been established between man and woman by the Creator....(The One we should be pleasing)  This is a bunch of minority judges forcing Christians to go along with sin and sign these licenses.   She should resist or quit her job, let some other poor shmuck do it, and let them receive God's wrath.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 10:38:31 AM »
She is standing with God over man.  God is the creator of marriage not man in Genesis 2:24.  Marriage has already been established between man and woman by the Creator....(The One we should be pleasing)  This is a bunch of minority judges forcing Christians to go along with sin and sign these licenses.   She should resist or quit her job, let some other poor shmuck do it, and let them receive God's wrath.

Like I said, if she quits, then they win. I put forth the example, if you had to sign a document allowing the Iran nuke deal, and refusing to do so would delay it, say by 1 day, would you do it?
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Offline Joe Gutfeld

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 05:40:40 PM »
At least she's finally out of jail.  Even someone accoused with murder gets bail.  She didn't.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2015, 06:15:55 PM »
At least she's finally out of jail.  Even someone accoused with murder gets bail.  She didn't.

The supreme court is accused of breaking the law and overstepping their jurisdiction, so they showed they can do it as much as they want. This situation has very little to do with Kim Davis, and everything to do with corruption and abuse of power.
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2015, 08:00:06 PM »
So LKZ do you support this lady or not.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2015, 09:33:55 PM »
So LKZ do you support this lady or not.

I don't know anything about her and am in no position to support her, but i support that Ted Cruz supported her and what she did, because she took a stand on a good cause. I think the action of resisting this forcing of the homosexual agenda is good and I believe that other people in the same situation should emulate those actions, and that other ways to resist unconstitutional homosexual tyranny should be done with the same courage she's shown.
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Offline cjd

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2015, 03:47:33 AM »
At least she's finally out of jail.  Even someone accoused with murder gets bail.  She didn't.
She was in contempt of court... I am almost sure that a person held like that has to comply with the court order or more or less rot in jail... This woman was a clerk who's job it was to issue licenses... The people who she was turning away had the so called law on their side... If she felt so strongly about this issue she should have quit her job and moved on... The worse part of the picture is that she herself has not had a life that most bible believing grandma's would point to with admiration.
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2015, 03:48:40 AM »
It's an uber long post I cannot match :). I don't think the hypothetical question you brought near the end is equivalent- allowing gays to get married is not the same as allowing and enabling Iran to get nukes. I know some people believe that gay marriage is the end of civilization but that's their own faith/religion not a fact.

When a muslim waitress refuses to serve alcohol I think most of us here (I for sure) think that if they can't do their job then quit. So from my point of view the same goes to Kim Davis, if she can't fulfill her job then she should quit or be removed from office. The only legitimacy to her refusal is based on the argument that she in facts keeps the law as it is written and meant to be while the supreme court dictated a law which it has no constitutional power to do.

It is common for Xtians to identify entirely with their religion. Having been in cults through everything in the middle to Jesuit school, on cults they're incapable of seeing themselves as anything but a "member", a tool in the system, and even the most intellectual and philosophical priest or parishioner will identify as Catholic first, a person second (in name only Catholics with no actual belief involved are a complicated exception, with different levels). This is hard to understand from a Jewish perspective (outside of certain "closest cult to Judaism" divergent cults) as mitzvot and practicing the religion is involved with virtually every aspect of life, but the difference is that since there's nothing to know for certain, there's no way to prove intellectually that they are doing the right thing (excluding deeds that are congruent with Torah, not that they will likely learn these intellectual justifications), so they have to embody their religion, and what is typically told to new missionaries before setting out to hunt is "let them see the love of Beesus inside of you" for cults, to cause lonely and broken people to desire to be less sad, and be drawn to them because they don't look like they are, and more mainstream groups follow "by their fruits you shall know them" as a missionizing tactic, being that standing for their religion shows strength, and since many of their attitudes are taken from Torah, and therefore are beneficial, they believe that others will be drawn to them through this.

Obviously, she made a political argument she put under the mantle of "because of my religion". This is tactical, I've seen it done before as a way of playing on fellow believers' loyalty to the religion, so they might stand with her, but primarily (besides the fact that if she says she does not recognize the authority of the supreme court, the supreme court won't be very nice, claiming religious freedom gives her something she can argue in court, ironically) it serves as a moral justification for the deed; "the supreme court has done all these things illegally, but because of my morals, this is where i take a stand".


Source where she won't issue license to normal couples. As a Jew, you know that signing such a document would mean you have a hand in it. I personally thought "why doesn't she resign" first, but it's the supreme court doing the illegal action, they're the ones that should be forced out. There is no change unless you take a stand. I personally talked an American who Xtian on the fence about the candidates, and he told me this decision by Ted Cruz to get her out of lockup has made him and his family agree with my assertion that he is the best candidate, and they'll be supporting him.

If every clerk refused to do it, and others with "bureaucratic jobs" refused to sign a paper to be handed to Hashem that reads "destroy here", America could fight off this illegal action.  So now to get back to my first point a stronger argument than the fact that it violates the law of America, though that's the one you're claiming is OK, is that it violates the laws of heaven. I'm not a posek to decide if signing a paper does anything, but I read the article that said the degenerates that wanted to "marry" were unable to because of one resilient clerk. She stopped American tax payers from proving money to pay for someone to engage in sinful acts, even if only for a short while. Maybe she should be fired from her job, someone brought up the argument of the tree humper who didn't want to issue conceal-carry permits, and while the argument has no bearing, since the clerk can only use as backing that he feels that's what right, he stands against the law, the court and G-d didn't leave any books around backing him, still I think a person that refuses to issue a conceal carry permit should be fired, and if this person refused to issue a licence to a straight person, they should be fired. If they live in a country like Canada where the majority does support paying homosexuals to sodomize each other, then she shouldn't take that job (that'd be outta the stage 1 jihad playbook) and if she had done this, she should be fired, which would be for her own good anyways.

She has taken a stand and said "i don't have to give up my job or my America, I want to do what is right and not sign my country's death warrant to Hashem (I know, but still better someone who "fears" his statue than someone who "fears" nothing), I believe that we can live in a country where government workers are not forced to violate G-d's laws (and she should rightfully add, the constitution) and I can do what is right without having to run from evil, I take a stand on this".

I don't care if she's a democrat, and I don't care what religion she said it for. She's being a better human than the clerks that are signing away Americans to a life of supporting degeneracy, and their country to destruction because they were "just doing their jobs".

Ted Cruz told entire states to ignore the supreme courts illegal decision and not to let them force them do this. Everyone should oppose this in any way possible in their daily lives. This woman is an example that America still has what it takes to fight for what is right. It does have to do with religion, just not the way she said it, but if she was a pastafarian, invented a verse of the magical unicorn that said she can't do that, and used that as her justification, I'd still side with her, because she already has the support of the law and the American people behind her, and we can get to all the things that are wrong with her and everyone and thing else in the solar system after we congratulate her for doing the right thing. Her religion argument is not "because i want to make my religion reign supreme, it's "you're forcing me to be a part of something that me or no one else wants or agrees with, and I won't give up my job or turn my job into an evil position".

If you were the clerk in a bureaucratic job, and a bill from Obama just passed with a 2/3 congress majority backing it, would you sign the Iran nuclear deal into existence, if you could stop it, or at least delay it while they're figuring out how to best humiliate you before throwing you in jail? You don't get the defense of the law, just Hashem on this one, would you morally justify your action and say it is right not to do this and what would you say to another man that does it and uses Judaism to back his decision?

The Iranian nuclear deal and everything in the first place is all in G-d's control and will. If he doesn't think America should get nuked, America won't get nuked. G-d bless him, but that action does more to stop a nuclear holocaust than 10 perfect Ted Cruz speeches on Iran. Get a society that can stand up to sneaky judges, you might get one that can stand to sneaky Arabs that control the Persians.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2015, 12:29:57 PM »
She was in contempt of court... I am almost sure that a person held like that has to comply with the court order or more or less rot in jail... This woman was a clerk who's job it was to issue licenses... The people who she was turning away had the so called law on their side... If she felt so strongly about this issue she should have quit her job and moved on... The worse part of the picture is that she herself has not had a life that most bible believing grandma's would point to with admiration.
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Offline eb22

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2015, 01:02:19 PM »
I'm not sure what Kim Davis' reason ( s ) is for not wanting those working under her to issue marriage licenses to ' homosexual couples' .   But if I were in her position,   I wouldn't let them issue the licenses for one reason above all else.   I wouldn't want to cause someone else to help commit a sin that is considered an abomination by G-d.
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: KIM DAVIS : Civil Disobedience over Gay Marriage
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2015, 02:34:59 PM »
She was in contempt of court... I am almost sure that a person held like that has to comply with the court order or more or less rot in jail... This woman was a clerk who's job it was to issue licenses... The people who she was turning away had the so called law on their side... If she felt so strongly about this issue she should have quit her job and moved on... The worse part of the picture is that she herself has not had a life that most bible believing grandma's would point to with admiration.

She was in contempt of an unconstitutional court order. She is right to fight it. It is her job to issue licenses, the people she turned away want a license that violate everything the vast majority of Americans believe in or not.

She should have quit her job by your opinion. Cake makers should also quit their jobs, because it's the law they have to make cakes for whoever comes, and if they have to put two men on it, which is a serious travesty, then they have to quit their jobs. Churches should also quit their jobs, because they're forced to do homosexual weddings, and when someone goes to your shul for a faggot wedding, the shul should shut down and people can pray in their homes, because either way no Jew can even step into the prayer area again.

Teachers never fought, they say "I disagree with teaching nonsense evolution and insane "shape words" that will both turn your brain to mush, but I have to". Your education system has gone from the top in the world, to a pile of detrimental garbage.

Also, it's petty, and emotional manipulation to disregard her fight and the concept of what is happening here because of her life. She has nothing to do with the Kim Davis fiasco, and even if she did, If a muslim refused to sign the Iran nuclear deal, it would in no way lessen the goodness of the action or the fight, which would have absolutely nothing to do with the muslim.

At this rate, rabbis will be held in contempt of court and imprisoned because they won't officiate over an abomination. The deform will cheer it.


When the federal government decides to turn your honest job into a filth peddler's position, besides fighting for your right to not become "an outcast" as Chaim said by leaving your job, in this economy, you should have enough respect for your position not to leave it to someone who will certainly make that job an evil un-G-dly job, and you should have enough respect for your nation to hold to its laws, not follow the tyrant trying to subvert it. Take a stand while you're strong, because an army of jobless outcasts will be real easy for the leftists to marginalize, and then they can destroy the country unfettered by the whimpy hypocrites who help them destroy the country while saying "it's just my job", and the completely powerless.

It's an uber long post I cannot match :). I don't think the hypothetical question you brought near the end is equivalent- allowing gays to get married is not the same as allowing and enabling Iran to get nukes. I know some people believe that gay marriage is the end of civilization but that's their own faith/religion not a fact.

When a muslim waitress refuses to serve alcohol I think most of us here (I for sure) think that if they can't do their job then quit. So from my point of view the same goes to Kim Davis, if she can't fulfill her job then she should quit or be removed from office. The only legitimacy to her refusal is based on the argument that she in facts keeps the law as it is written and meant to be while the supreme court dictated a law which it has no constitutional power to do.


I said it's not the same on a level, and neither is saying that it's hypocritical to support her and not support the clerk who refused to give concealed carry permits, but there is a common vein, read the thing again, and respond to the questions, OR EXPLAIN WHY IT IS NOT THE SAME. I'll respond to the rest of your statement when you provide a legitimate response to mine, I don't think you writing letters is the same as typing or talking, and from my point of view, I don't think your last sentece is really the same as your second last sentence. Also, I doubt what you say, and can't say I really support you in it. Do you know what you're talking about? This doesn't seem entirely accurate.

I can play the doubt crapper politician too, and I'll win.

You don't believe people can repent and be forgiven of whatever they've done?

Who gives a crap. If she says "babies should be aborted at 6 years old if they are not tall", now do you say "oh she was wrong to do that", or "oh a bad person wants to do a good thing? Stop her!"? You people are obsessed with people. Let's debate ideology and politics, and not turn this into a grade school popularity contest.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge