Author Topic: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote  (Read 1837 times)

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Offline Dr. Dan

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Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« on: September 22, 2016, 08:09:15 PM »
Chaim and JTF has been right about a lot of things and I trust their intuition on this upcoming election.  I agree completely that Hillary is a disaster and I agree completely that Trump is not a conservative and really a liberal and therefore, the trojan horse to bring down the conservatism of the republican party, like Bibi and the Likud party has always been.

When Ted Cruz gave his speech at the RNC convention, what was he saying really?  He wasn't saying "Don't for Trump" or "Don't vote for Hillary"  He was saying for us to vote our conscience and to hold our anointed leaders accountable...eg Trump and his liberal values and decisions..or any other future republican who goes against their principles and promises.  He said nothing wrong really...and I fear that this message will largely go ignored should Trump get elected.  It's something I need to remind enthusiastic Trump supporters who I understand choose him as the lesser evils.

That's where my concern comes in.  We know Hillary is bad news. Pro muslim, anti semitic. Extremely corrupt and with lots of power.  Bad advisers and friends. In bed with Muslim terrorist money. etc etc etc. I know that if Israel had a strong leader, it wouldn't matter, but still, she will bring ISIS refugees into this country in a heart beat..there is no secret here.  Worse than Obama in every regard if that's even possible.

So isn't it fair to conclude that Trump, as terrible as he is, is the lesser of evils?  Yes, I have been reading the articles and watching the videos. I agree completely with most of the things being said..However, Hillary is really really bad and she will use executive orders like Obama to get her way..and she is really bad news...really really bad.  Trump can't be that bad..yes he's a moron..but how can he be worse or as bad?  That's where I'm lost and it hasn't completely convinced me that he is worse or as bad as Hillary.

As of now, I intend on writing in Ted Cruz's name because it is the right thing to do.  I don't want Hillary to be president though or her vice president to be president.  I don't trust the establishment with either Trump or Hillary either.  I admit it..if Hillary loses, i will be very happy because I can't stand her.  So will my vote be for Hillary if I write Ted Cruz's name but want Hillary to lose?  It's a common sense logical dilemma and I don't blame people who hate Hillary who will vote Trump because they hate her understandably.  As long as they understand that Trump is a defect and that his actions have to be held accountable..that he would need to be scrutinized with every decision he makes if it is a conservative value or not.

Comment are welcome. Please convince me which way is the right way:  to vote Ted Cruz in a write in OR to vote against Hillary by voting Trump.  Thank you.
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Offline eb22

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2016, 09:28:04 PM »
I think the only viable option in this Presidential election is to write in someone that you like,  which is what I plan to do with Ted Cruz as the write in choice.   None of the Presidential Candidates are acceptable,  at least on this end.

Regarding Donald Trump,  here are some major reasons why I won't vote for him in no particular order:

1.   Trump's presence in the race has legitimized Neo-Nazis in the Republican Party and on the right in general.  David Duke's candidacy for U.S. Senate out of Louisiana is exhibit A.   Even if Duke doesn't get elected,  it could open the door for a future Neo-Nazi to become President or a Congressman.

2.   Trump's positions consistently change.  No one truly knows what he stands for.  It's impossible to overlook his support for leftists in the past,  including Hillary Clinton.   Related to this is Trump's lies,  including against Ted Cruz during the primary season.   

3.   If Trump wins the election,  it will be more difficult to get opposition for his policies in Congress than if Hillary Clinton wins.  By no means is this a reason to vote for Hillary Clinton.   There is no acceptable reason to vote for her.  But it's a reason not to vote for Trump.

4.   If Trump wins the election,   he will very likely cause so much damage that it might be 20 or more years before a Republican gets elected President again.   It probably would be too late to save the USA by then.

5.   Trump's relationship with V. Putin suggests that Putin controls Trump and that could easily greatly endanger the USA and Israel.

6.  Trump is unwilling to rip up the Iranian Nuclear Agreement.

7.   Trump is a megomanic and seems determined to get Israel to agree to a ' peace' agreement with the Fakeastians.   Trump's Jewish advisors seem to want a ' peace' agreement.   Bibi's weakness could easily be exploited by Trump.

8.   Trump is comfortable with the Supreme Court decision legalizing ' Same Sex Marriage'  and considers himself a friend to the ' LGBT' community.   

9.  Trump's financial policies could cause a depression.

10.  Trump is probably even worse than Hillary Clinton on amnesty.   

11.  Trump could easily appoint NJ Governor Chris Christie to his administration.
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

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Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2016, 09:39:40 PM »
I have the same dilemma.  And I happen to literally hate Trump and I've known how bad he is for years and years now.  He's a true con man, no question about it.  But let's think about the Supreme Court and what their rulings can mean to this country.  Having liberal Supreme Court justices will be a disaster.  For that reason alone it will be better having Trump do the picking, as we know that a few Justices will be retiring -- not to mention the one spot needs filling now.  It looks like Hillary is going to win.  If we knew for a FACT that she'd win, then we can write in Cruz.  But we don't know for a fact that Hillary will win.  If it's close, then we want to do all we can to make sure that Hillary is NOT NOT NOT NOT our next President (Hashem forbid).  If you think that Trump is really a liberal then what does that make Hillary??  I think, therefore, that I'm going to have to hold my nose and vote for Trump, as despicable a decision as this is.  I can't see anyway around this, can you?  (Of course, I could stay home and not vote -- but that just helps Hillary.  And I DO NOT want to help Hillary!!)

Offline Lisa

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2016, 10:16:43 PM »
With all the trouble Black Lives Matter is causing, and given that Hillary supports them big time, I think if she wins it will be the equivalent of having a female David Dinkins as POTUS.

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2016, 10:47:59 PM »
With all the trouble Black Lives Matter is causing, and given that Hillary supports them big time, I think if she wins it will be the equivalent of having a female David Dinkins as POTUS.
Good point!  And let us NEVER FORGET Dinkins' response to the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum.

Hashem help us if Hillary is elected!  I think we'll really regret not doing all we can to stop her.

Offline Lisa

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2016, 10:50:02 PM »
Good point!  And let us NEVER FORGET Dinkins' response to the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum.

Hashem help us if Hillary is elected!  I think we'll really regret not doing all we can to stop her.

And remember how that jury acquitted the killers, then went out lunch with them?!?!

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2016, 11:05:27 PM »
And remember how that jury acquitted the killers, then went out lunch with them?!?!
Right!  Just horrible!  "Kill the Jew, kill the Jew," they screamed.  Those animal savages!

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2016, 06:39:36 AM »

I appreciate your response. Below I'm going to respond to each point:

I think the only viable option in this Presidential election is to write in someone that you like,  which is what I plan to do with Ted Cruz as the write in choice.   None of the Presidential Candidates are acceptable,  at least on this end.

Regarding Donald Trump,  here are some major reasons why I won't vote for him in no particular order:

1.   Trump's presence in the race has legitimized Neo-Nazis in the Republican Party and on the right in general.  David Duke's candidacy for U.S. Senate out of Louisiana is exhibit A.   Even if Duke doesn't get elected,  it could open the door for a future Neo-Nazi to become President or a Congressman.

☹️ Neo Nazis are a problem. Are they any different than the Muslim Nazis who continue to occupy congress and senate and administration?  How can a white Nazi get elected if black Nazis are winning in the elections. And should a white Nazi get into power, will he align himself with any black in congress or senate? Or perhaps they will neutralize each other. Perhaps all the white Nazis will come out and fight black Nazis (which I doubt since they are wimps and afraid of blacks).

Anyway, it's hard for me to buy into that argument although trump has said things about his wall and Mexicans to get white Nazis excited. I doubt he will follow through or will do a poor job and take a long time to build one.

And if he does build a wall, maybe it will keep new ones coming in illegally.?

2.   Trump's positions consistently change.  No one truly knows what he stands for.  It's impossible to overlook his support for leftists in the past,  including Hillary Clinton.   Related to this is Trump's lies,  including against Ted Cruz during the primary season.   

☹️ I agree

3.   If Trump wins the election,  it will be more difficult to get opposition for his policies in Congress than if Hillary Clinton wins.  By no means is this a reason to vote for Hillary Clinton.   There is no acceptable reason to vote for her.  But it's a reason not to vote for Trump.

☹️ I agree. But my counterpoint is that the same will be true if Hillary wins. The establishment hate trump and are sell outs. If they sold out to Obama, expect them to sell out for Hillary.

4.   If Trump wins the election,   he will very likely cause so much damage that it might be 20 or more years before a Republican gets elected President again.   It probably would be too late to save the USA by then.

☹️ My friend, I think we missed the bus. It's probably over.

5.   Trump's relationship with V. Putin suggests that Putin controls Trump and that could easily greatly endanger the USA and Israel.

☹️ This is possible but no different than Isis refugees being greeted in by Hillary and having pressure cookers with machetes and stabbings left in right. At least a Russian dictator will want to keep buildings intact as he takes over the country (if these speculations are fact). It will be bad either way.

6.  Trump is unwilling to rip up the Iranian Nuclear Agreement.

☹️ So is Hillary who will make it worse

7.   Trump is a megomanic and seems determined to get Israel to agree to a ' peace' agreement with the Fakeastians.   Trump's Jewish advisors seem to want a ' peace' agreement.   Bibi's weakness could easily be exploited by Trump.

☹️ So is Hillary with her endless political corruption. She owes a lot of favors to bad bad people too.

8.   Trump is comfortable with the Supreme Court decision legalizing ' Same Sex Marriage'  and considers himself a friend to the ' LGBT' community.   

☹️ Hillary would accept pedophilia if she had her way. That's next. But yes it's a problem

9.  Trump's financial policies could cause a depression.

☹️ Very true. Then again the stock market is a farce and so is a lot of other things. A Great Depression is due no matter who wins.

10.  Trump is probably even worse than Hillary Clinton on amnesty.   

☹️ Both will legalize illegals. Hillary will include the Muslim Nazis too  very very likely.

11.  Trump could easily appoint NJ Governor Chris Christie to his administration.

☹️ Yes he's bad news. Hillary will appoint plenty of Muslim Nazi Jew haters too.

It is a lose lose situation. I think Hillary has more going against her. One poison will lead to stabbings; the other eventual added anti Semitism. Trump will not make things better no prevent bad things. But Hillary is a nightmare.

You forgot to add the point about nuclear bombs to everyone. I think Hillary will do the same but more to Israel's enemies.
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2016, 09:15:09 AM »
Dr.  Dan it looks like you've made a decision

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2016, 12:13:52 PM »
Dr.  Dan it looks like you've made a decision

I haven't made one yet. I hope Chaim or anyone anti trump can respond to my responses to eb22 and convince me the opposite. That's what I'm looking for. If my rationale is incorrect I would like to know how letting Hillary is correct.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2016, 05:57:22 PM »
Ted Cruz wrote the following as to why he will vote for Trump.  I think they're all good and valid reasons why we need a Republican President at this time.

This election is unlike any other in our nation’s history. Like many other voters, I have struggled to determine the right course of action in this general election.

In Cleveland, I urged voters, “please, don’t stay home in November. Stand, and speak, and vote your conscience, vote for candidates up and down the ticket whom you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the Constitution.”

After many months of careful consideration, of prayer and searching my own conscience, I have decided that on Election Day, I will vote for the Republican nominee, Donald Trump.

I’ve made this decision for two reasons. First, last year, I promised to support the Republican nominee. And I intend to keep my word.

Second, even though I have had areas of significant disagreement with our nominee, by any measure Hillary Clinton is wholly unacceptable — that’s why I have always been #NeverHillary.

Six key policy differences inform my decision. First, and most important, the Supreme Court. For anyone concerned about the Bill of Rights — free speech, religious liberty, the Second Amendment — the Court hangs in the balance. I have spent my professional career fighting before the Court to defend the Constitution. We are only one justice away from losing our most basic rights, and the next president will appoint as many as four new justices. We know, without a doubt, that every Clinton appointee would be a left-wing ideologue. Trump, in contrast, has promised to appoint justices “in the mold of Scalia.”

For some time, I have been seeking greater specificity on this issue, and today the Trump campaign provided that, releasing a very strong list of potential Supreme Court nominees — including Sen. Mike Lee, who would make an extraordinary justice — and making an explicit commitment to nominate only from that list. This commitment matters, and it provides a serious reason for voters to choose to support Trump.

Second, Obamacare. The failed healthcare law is hurting millions of Americans. If Republicans hold Congress, leadership has committed to passing legislation repealing Obamacare. Clinton, we know beyond a shadow of doubt, would veto that legislation. Trump has said he would sign it.

Third, energy. Clinton would continue the Obama administration’s war on coal and relentless efforts to crush the oil and gas industry. Trump has said he will reduce regulations and allow the blossoming American energy renaissance to create millions of new high-paying jobs.

Fourth, immigration. Clinton would continue and even expand President Obama’s lawless executive amnesty. Trump has promised that he would revoke those illegal executive orders.

Fifth, national security. Clinton would continue the Obama administration’s willful blindness to radical Islamic terrorism. She would continue importing Middle Eastern refugees whom the FBI cannot vet to make sure they are not terrorists. Trump has promised to stop the deluge of unvetted refugees.

Sixth, Internet freedom. Clinton supports Obama’s plan to hand over control of the Internet to an international community of stakeholders, including Russia, China, and Iran. Just this week, Trump came out strongly against that plan, and in support of free speech online.

These are six vital issues where the candidates’ positions present a clear choice for the American people.

If Clinton wins, we know — with 100% certainty — that she would deliver on her left-wing promises, with devastating results for our country.

My conscience tells me I must do whatever I can to stop that.

We also have seen, over the past few weeks and months, a Trump campaign focusing more and more on freedom — including emphasizing school choice and the power of economic growth to lift African-Americans and Hispanics to prosperity.

Finally, after eight years of a lawless Obama administration, targeting and persecuting those disfavored by the administration, fidelity to the rule of law has never been more important.

The Supreme Court will be critical in preserving the rule of law. And, if the next administration fails to honor the Constitution and Bill of Rights, then I hope that Republicans and Democrats will stand united in protecting our fundamental liberties.

Our country is in crisis. Hillary Clinton is manifestly unfit to be president, and her policies would harm millions of Americans. And Donald Trump is the only thing standing in her way.
 A year ago, I pledged to endorse the Republican nominee, and I am honoring that commitment. And if you don’t want to see a Hillary Clinton presidency, I encourage you to vote for him.

Offline eb22

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2016, 05:59:43 PM »
I haven't made one yet. I hope Chaim or anyone anti trump can respond to my responses to eb22 and convince me the opposite. That's what I'm looking for. If my rationale is incorrect I would like to know how letting Hillary is correct.

Dr. Dan,  thanks for your reply.   Though I complete agree with you regarding the great dangers if Hillary Clinton becomes President,  I think the reality of the situation is choosing between the two is like picking your choice of poison.   The flavor of the poison is different in some respects but it's still poison.

Having said this,  whatever you and the other great JTF members decide between voting for Donald Trump vs. writing in a candidate ( or not voting for President this time around  ),  I think the most important thing is for all of us to unite against our numerous enemies.  This election will thankfully be over in several weeks.  After that,  regardless who wins the election,   we are going to have yet another horrific individual in the oval office.   Not to mention,  the concerns of the remainder of BHO's occupation of the oval office.

Shabbat Shalom!
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

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Offline briann

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2016, 07:03:44 PM »
Hi Dr. Dan.  I know JTF is really split on this,  It feels like we are torn about this as Cruz is/was.

I would make a recommendation that if you don't live in a swing-state, don't even give it a second though.  write in Cruz.  But if you do live in a potential swing state... do what you think is right.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Conflicted about Trump versus Hillary versus protest vote
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2016, 08:58:11 PM »
I appreciate your responses. I am registered in New York which will unlikely be a swing state. But you never know for sure.

I will reveal my decision as the time gets closer or day of.

As far as ted Cruz's endorsement, odd it came around this post.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein