Author Topic: The Noahide Case Against Islam  (Read 139 times)

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Online Hrvatski Noahid

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The Noahide Case Against Islam
« on: May 14, 2018, 02:13:17 AM »
Some Rabbis claim that Islam is acceptable for Gentiles. They are woefully mistaken.

The main doctrine of Islam is not idolatry, since it calls for belief in one G-d. However, it is forbidden to uphold an innovated religion that people introduced after Mount Sinai (the Divine Code by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, Ask Noah International, 2011, p 195).

Traditional Islamic doctrine rejects the authenticity of the Five Books of Moses. However, the original text is to this day in all Torah-scrolls (the same, p 40). 

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 12:09:14 PM »
There is not one Orthodox Rabbi on Earth who would say such a lie. The most you can get in their favor is Rambam who said it's not complete idolatry, and then in the next sentence says he can't say what he wants, because informants will inform the muslims if he says anything against them and he will be murdered.

That's a good enough reason not to be a muslim, but like the laws of sexual immorality and murder would also become issues very quickly.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2018, 12:49:22 PM »
There is not one Orthodox Rabbi on Earth who would say such a lie. The most you can get in their favor is Rambam who said it's not complete idolatry, and then in the next sentence says he can't say what he wants, because informants will inform the muslims if he says anything against them and he will be murdered.

That's a good enough reason not to be a muslim, but like the laws of sexual immorality and murder would also become issues very quickly.

I do not wish to give names. Who those Rabbis are is well-known.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 03:19:54 PM »
I do not wish to give names. Who those Rabbis are is well-known.

No. And it's not lashon hara if they're saying publicly. Link me to any Rabbi who says Islam is good for gentiles.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 04:29:14 PM »
Islam is not idolatry. But it has other problems. It's not idolatry for anyone. Xtianity is idolatry for Jews but there is a debate whether it is idolatry for goyim. But whether it is idolatry or doesn't make it permitted. There are other problems with those religions such as false prophesy. In Islam, there is also theft and murder.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 04:57:40 PM »
Islam is not idolatry. But it has other problems. It's not idolatry for anyone. Xtianity is idolatry for Jews but there is a debate whether it is idolatry for goyim. But whether it is idolatry or doesn't make it permitted. There are other problems with those religions such as false prophesy. In Islam, there is also theft and murder.

Just as big Rabbis as Rambam, like Ramban who was in the same era said it's 100% idolatry, whoever says shahada has no share in the world to come without teshuva. Rambam is the minority opinion here. The evidence that it is idolatry is overwhelming, and in the sentence Rambam says "their error is not idolatry", he continues with "I can not say what I want to for fear of the Jewish informants", so it's as credible as the Rabbis in Europe who says Xtianity isn't.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 11:54:42 PM »
No. And it's not lashon hara if they're saying publicly. Link me to any Rabbi who says Islam is good for gentiles.

https://youtu.be/udYM4FuYdiA

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2018, 12:09:03 AM »
Islam is not idolatry. But it has other problems. It's not idolatry for anyone. Xtianity is idolatry for Jews but there is a debate whether it is idolatry for goyim. But whether it is idolatry or doesn't make it permitted. There are other problems with those religions such as false prophesy. In Islam, there is also theft and murder.

After the commandments of the Torah and their explanations were given by G-d at Mount Sinai, people do not have permission from G-d to create any new religions. This is an outcome of G-d's promise that the Torah of Moses is eternal, and His commandment that it must not be changed by mankind.

The main opinion is that a Gentile is liable for actually worshiping an intermediary.

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2018, 12:15:38 AM »
Just as big Rabbis as Rambam, like Ramban who was in the same era said it's 100% idolatry, whoever says shahada has no share in the world to come without teshuva. Rambam is the minority opinion here. The evidence that it is idolatry is overwhelming, and in the sentence Rambam says "their error is not idolatry", he continues with "I can not say what I want to for fear of the Jewish informants", so it's as credible as the Rabbis in Europe who says Xtianity isn't.

Believers in post-Sinai doctrines are deniers of Torah and deviant believers and are not among those who keep the Seven Noahide Commandments.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2018, 12:40:06 AM »
Believers in post-Sinai doctrines are deniers of Torah and deviant believers and are not among those who keep the Seven Noahide Commandments.

Right, we're talking specficially about idolatry though, is the religion promoting a clear path to G-d without idolatrous practices. Ramban would say yes vehemently.
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Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2018, 12:51:30 AM »
Right, we're talking specficially about idolatry though, is the religion promoting a clear path to G-d without idolatrous practices. Ramban would say yes vehemently.

Rambam Laws of Forbidden Foods 11:7; Tur Yoreh De'ah ch. 124 in the name of Rashba and the Gaonim; Beit Yosef and Rema Yoreh De'ah 146:5, all rule that Muslims are not idolaters.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 02:23:35 AM »
Rambam Laws of Forbidden Foods 11:7; Tur Yoreh De'ah ch. 124 in the name of Rashba and the Gaonim; Beit Yosef and Rema Yoreh De'ah 146:5, all rule that Muslims are not idolaters.

I side with the Ramban on this (not Rambam). I respect their opinion and disagree.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2018, 03:23:12 AM »
I side with the Ramban on this (not Rambam). I respect their opinion and disagree.

I respect that. I follow the Divine Code by Rabbi Moshe Weiner.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2018, 11:04:54 AM »
Islam originated from lunar worship. Allah was originally the lunar god. Chaim said that Islam is not idolatry and that since Islam began, Allah simply means G-d in Arabic. The Kaaba was originally a pagan shrine dedicated to lunar worship but the Muslims converted it to a Muslim shrine.

It's still wrong to start a new religion but that doesn't mean it's idolatry. As long as they believe in the G-d of the Bible, it's not idolatry. Their problem is that they changed around Biblical stories, but at least they didn't change who G-d is. Sikhism says they believe in one G-d but I think it's still idolatry since their god is not the G-d of the Bible. I think it's just a version of Hinduism that got rid of multiple gods.



Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2018, 12:17:46 PM »
The Kaaba was originally a pagan shrine dedicated to lunar worship but the Muslims converted it to a Muslim shrine.

See Responsa of Rambam ch. 160, where he explains that the Muslims who bow down to G-d around the Ka'aba stone in Mecca (and in Rambam's time they would throw rocks specifically at it, and not at any other statues) are not performing an act of idol worship, since their intention is only to bow down for G-d. In an earlier time (before Mecca was conquered for Islam), this stone was a Merculis, and people used to throw rocks at it as a worship ritual at that exact location. However, the Muslims who continued that custom had no intention for it to be a means of worshiping the stone as an idol.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2018, 11:40:29 PM »
OK, so new religion, I worship G-d. G-d is a six foot tall black guy named bubba. He eats cheetos, and is the only one. Is my new (fake) religion idolatry?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 11:42:40 PM »
Even just the concept that their fake idol is physically in hell torturing the mostly female inhabitants at all times has at least 10 points on the idolatry scale.
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Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2018, 04:01:33 AM »
OK, so new religion, I worship G-d. G-d is a six foot tall black guy named bubba. He eats cheetos, and is the only one. Is my new (fake) religion idolatry?

If G-d were to have body and form, He would be limited and defined, because it is impossible for there to be a body which has no limitation. Everything that has limitation and definition, by virtue of its body, also has a limited and bounded power. Since G-d's ability and power have no limitation or boundary, His power is not the power of a body. And since He does not have a body or any form, He cannot be affected by any circumstances that can affect a body. The six foot tall black guy named bubba has a human body and a human form, so he is not G-d. The new religion is idolatry because it worships a person. 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 04:13:00 AM by Hrvatski Noahid »

Online Hrvatski Noahid

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Re: The Noahide Case Against Islam
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2018, 04:03:53 AM »
If a religious statute is innovated to gather to the site of a specific pillar, this becomes the type of forbidden pillar that is mentioned in the Torah. An example is the Ka'aba stone at Mecca; since the congregating of people at this specific pillar, and the rituals, honor and holiness that were connected with it, were made into statutes of a religion, it is the type of pillar that is mentioned in the Torah (the Divine Code by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, Ask Noah International, 2011, p 195-196).