Author Topic: American first, Jew second  (Read 14947 times)

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Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2007, 12:15:10 AM »
Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.   


Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.

Actually, Israel pressured the U.S. to fund it. This is a fact. I read at the time that the U.S. was surprised and unpleased at Sharon's plan. Remember, Sharon was being investigated by Israel's AG for corruption at the time...

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2007, 12:27:39 AM »
Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.   


Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.

Actually, Israel pressured the U.S. to fund it. This is a fact. I read at the time that the U.S. was surprised and unpleased at Sharon's plan. Remember, Sharon was being investigated by Israel's AG for corruption at the time...

Where did you read this? Anyway prove it to be a fact. It is a fact that the US has been pressuring Israel over the years, this shouldnt make us look at the Israeli gov in any better way, in fact this is furthur proof why we only need a Religious Theocracy ( I think thats the right word for it).
 Anyway look at the hand of G-d at huricane Katrina- G-d doesnt send punishments if their is no sin (except very few precious Tzaddikim (I dont want to explain why right now).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2007, 12:36:48 AM »
Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.   


Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.

Actually, Israel pressured the U.S. to fund it. This is a fact. I read at the time that the U.S. was surprised and unpleased at Sharon's plan. Remember, Sharon was being investigated by Israel's AG for corruption at the time...

Where did you read this? Anyway prove it to be a fact. It is a fact that the US has been pressuring Israel over the years, this shouldnt make us look at the Israeli gov in any better way, in fact this is furthur proof why we only need a Religious Theocracy ( I think thats the right word for it).
 Anyway look at the hand of G-d at huricane Katrina- G-d doesnt send punishments if their is no sin (except very few precious Tzaddikim (I dont want to explain why right now).

Ehh. Bush and Rice were only lukewarm on it because it didn't conform to the Roadmap. I stand corrected.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2007, 01:31:49 AM »
Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.   


The US supported Israel's withdrawl from Gaza.  Maybe it was Sharon's idea, but the US government was not opposed to it. 


Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2007, 02:55:45 PM »
Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.   


The US supported Israel's withdrawl from Gaza.  Maybe it was Sharon's idea, but the US government was not opposed to it. 



I dont think it was Sharons idea, (not that it doesnt make him a criminal), but why would he be the person to initiate the opposite of what he was doing all of these years (to his credit we cant forget that he did build up many "settlements", and did a lot of great work, allthough since gaza, emotionally we forgot about that and cursed him, etc.).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline White Israelite

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2007, 03:59:32 PM »
What about those who do not believe Israel is supposed to exist until the Messiach comes?

Also I don't see what the problem is with identifying as an American. America is made up of immigrants from all over the world.

I consider my self a patriotic Jewish American, I don't necessarily agree with the current government. I would like things to be like they were in the past how our founding fathers intended. I also celebrate American holidays such as fourth of July because I was born in America and this feels like my home.

I support Israel as well but I do not agree with the current government (Olmert) or the way Israel is today with the secular supporting homosexual parades in Jerusalem and stuff like that.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 04:01:47 PM by Cohen »

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2007, 04:38:32 PM »


I support Israel as well but I do not agree with the current government (Olmert) or the way Israel is today with the secular supporting homosexual parades in Jerusalem and stuff like that.
The majority of us support Israel while still disagreeing with her policies. We can't agree with many of her policies because they are blatantly un-Jewish and too often anti-Jewish......
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Wayne Jude

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2007, 05:33:17 PM »
Exactly, Lou ,the same with the USA.I love our nation but hate our policies.

Offline Israeli Mouse

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2007, 10:52:02 PM »
1. Should we identify ourselves as American first, Jew second? No of course not. A Jew is a Jew, and they should always put that first. When we don't remember we are Jews, first and foremost, we begin to assimilate or vanish into nothingness like the Essenes, Sadducees and their likes. Or to worse things, much worse things; such as the Holocausts, Pogroms, Blood libels, Crusades, and expulsions, which we were tortured in while being expelled, just to name a few. One of Hitler's biggest problems with the Jews was our assimilation in to the German people, he believed we were contaminating the purity of the German race. Not to mention the ones who do put the country they are born into first before their Jewish heritage turn out to be traitors to their fellow Jews, and if they don't one of their descendants will, whether it is a child, or a grandchild, or anyone else down the line, it will happen at one point. And no, chances are if they didn't put the country they were born in first, and raised their child to do the same - even just by seeing their parent do it - and they have their child do the same or at very least influence them to do so, chances are they would not turn out to be a Teddy Kollek. 
Though putting the country you are born first in is not being self-hating, it is having a lacking of true respect for yourself which can lead to becoming self-hating. Just because you are born or raised in a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be revoked. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew. You will live Jew and you will die a Jew whether you like it or not and despite all your efforts to make it not so, and the world will always see you as one as well. By denying your heritage you are denying your true self and degrading your heritage which your ancestors died for and by doing so you are shaming and degrading them.

2. "Judaism is a religion, not a nationality" - *Sigh* No Judaism is NOT just a religion, it IS a nationality and a way of life. Judaism is not like Christianity where you go to church on Sunday, listen to some sermon, accept Jesus as your savior, maybe eat a biscuit and drink some wine, and go on with your day and life. Judaism IS life, it tells you how to live from your diet to which shoe or sock to put on first and which to tie first, which to take off first, to making sure you are completely clean from waist after you go to the bathroom, to how you wash your hands after you go to the bath room, to how you raise your children, and how you speak, dress, behave and EVERYTHING else. Judaism is not just "Baruch atah hashem..." every now and then and going to Shul on Shabbat or Holidays it is so much more then that in fact it is everything.

3. "Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this." - Actually there IS genetic proof of Jews being connected and related to each other even from opposite ends of the world especially with Kohanim and Levim. If you take one from one end of the world and another from the other end of the world they will have some genetic markers in the Y-DNA. Do you have to have the genetic markers to be a Jew? No of course not. As long as you convert according to Halacha or were born one according to Halacha then you are a Jew, but there IS genetic evidence connecting many if not most Jews, so you can not say their isn’t.

4. "I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history." - The Torah is not a book, its not just a book at all and if you would really read it or study it then you would know that. Just as Judaism is not just a religion. 
Can a book even an amazing one when it was written down 3320 years ago just be amazing or just a book when it has correct historical evidence written down from different nations that the nations themselves didn't have recorded correctly and then turn out to be right? Historically just about everything that was recorded in it has been proven correct - not to say that the rest has never been proven wrong, they just haven't been proven one way or the other yet. Medically everything it’s said to do or not to do has been proven to be best health wise and mercifully. This so called "book" has been historically, medically and mathematically accurate on everything, even its calendar is the only one that is correct unlike the Julian Calendar, the Chinese calendar or the Arabic calendar or any other calendar that is not a copy of it. How can a book even an amazing one do that if it is just a book? The answer; It can't.
 
5. Israel is a Jewish state but it is not a religious one that is why Arabs are unfortunately in government.

6. "By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews."
- Let me guess you are against tribalism right? Do you know if it wasn't for Jews helping Jews and putting their own first there would be NO Jews. No one - other then the minority few who are so rare that they are practically not there at all - ever helps Jews unless to try to bring their prophecy of the "Second coming" in to effect. People should help their own first, if everyone did their would be no one left for others to help since everyone would make sure their own was taken care of. Just because you are born to a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be taken away. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew and you will die a Jew. Every action we make is reflected on and affects other Jews, that’s how it works whether we like it or not.

7. There are 5,275,000 Jews in the United States that is the most in the world after Israel it self but then again there were more in Arabic countries before they were exiled too. 
 
8. "America existed just fine before 1948." – Of course it did, there have always been Jews in America since the time of the Pilgrims. What is your point? When it says "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you," "You" means the Jewish people, not the state of Israel. But in times where we are living in Israel it obviously goes for the home country of the Jews as well.

9. "Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel." - I don't know were you get your facts but you are extremely off base. Bush himself even said at a joint press conference with Ariel Sharon on April 11, 2005 "I strongly support [Prime Minister Sharon's] courageous initiative to disengage from Gaza and part of the West Bank. The Prime Minister is willing to coordinate the implementation of the disengagement plan with the Palestinians. I urge the Palestinian leadership to accept his offer. By working together, Israelis and Palestinians can lay the groundwork for a peaceful transition." This is just one of many things he said to support it. Further more not only did America support Israels decision to give up Gaza they gave $50 million to the "Palestinian" Authority - which is like and connected to the PLO - to be used for new housing. Do you honestly truly think that the money went to housing and not weapons? Personally I believe they had much more a hand in the idea of giving it up then is known, but that’s just my opinion.

10. "Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat)." - How about when America didn't give a damn while Jews were being slaughtered in Europe? Or when Hitler first sent all the Jews out of Germany before he started the camps and Franklin Roosevelt sent them back and by doing so not only let a boat sink but gave the green light to wipe us out? Or in the way that when we were begging America to drop some bombs on the rail rode tracks they said they couldn't that they needed every last bomb, but ended up dumping them in to the sea?

11. America, like everywhere else, is not for Israel, it is for itself. Though, unlike many places they are not willing to risk harming themselves in order to destroy us, but don't fool yourself in to thinking they are our friend, or that a holocaust can not happen here. Just like what America did to the Japanese during WWII can happen to the Jews and worse. There already have been blood libels here in the United States. What ever happened in Germany can happen here.

12.
Being loyal to two countries will only get you so far; if you want to know where you stand, then figure out who you would be with if they went to war with each other.

13. G-d didn't punish the Jews of the Persian empire for celibrating a Goyish holiday, it was the fact that they were celbrating 70 years being up – or at least they thought it was - from Yirmiyahu's (Jeremiah's) prophecy of Israel returning back to their home and rebuilding the Beit Hamikdash which was a problem, along with the fact that everything there at the parties were braking Halacha. At the party the materials were made out of shatniss, the wine was forbidden, the food was not kosher, some of the cups used by the king and his court were from the Bait Hamikdash, along with MANY other things including the commentary that Achashverosh, and later on Vashti as well wore the Kohen Gadol's garments to the party.

14. "So what if someone is in and has a Gulut mentality?" - Tell me why do you think so many Jews go away? Or why the schools don't teach Torah properly? Or why we are still in Galut for that matter. If you can not answer these questions, or think that they don't matter, and that Galut is nothing then I'm sorry, but I have nothing further to say to you.
"Let us not suffer from a national amnesia that causes us to forget who and what we are."

-  Rav Kahane zt''l

Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2007, 11:11:57 PM »
1. Should we identify ourselves as American first, Jew second? No of course not. A Jew is a Jew, and they should always put that first. When we don't remember we are Jews, first and foremost, we begin to assimilate or vanish into nothingness like the Essenes, Sadducees and their likes. Or to worse things, much worse things; such as the Holocausts, Pogroms, Blood libels, Crusades, and expulsions, which we were tortured in while being expelled, just to name a few. One of Hitler's biggest problems with the Jews was our assimilation in to the German people, he believed we were contaminating the purity of the German race. Not to mention the ones who do put the country they are born into first before their Jewish heritage turn out to be traitors to their fellow Jews, and if they don't one of their descendants will, whether it is a child, or a grandchild, or anyone else down the line, it will happen at one point. And no, chances are if they didn't put the country they were born in first, and raised their child to do the same - even just by seeing their parent do it - and they have their child do the same or at very least influence them to do so, chances are they would not turn out to be a Teddy Kollek. 
Though putting the country you are born first in is not being self-hating, it is having a lacking of true respect for yourself which can lead to becoming self-hating. Just because you are born or raised in a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be revoked. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew. You will live Jew and you will die a Jew whether you like it or not and despite all your efforts to make it not so, and the world will always see you as one as well. By denying your heritage you are denying your true self and degrading your heritage which your ancestors died for and by doing so you are shaming and degrading them.

2. "Judaism is a religion, not a nationality" - *Sigh* No Judaism is NOT just a religion, it IS a nationality and a way of life. Judaism is not like Christianity where you go to church on Sunday, listen to some sermon, accept Jesus as your savior, maybe eat a biscuit and drink some wine, and go on with your day and life. Judaism IS life, it tells you how to live from your diet to which shoe or sock to put on first and which to tie first, which to take off first, to making sure you are completely clean from waist after you go to the bathroom, to how you wash your hands after you go to the bath room, to how you raise your children, and how you speak, dress, behave and EVERYTHING else. Judaism is not just "Baruch atah hashem..." every now and then and going to Shul on Shabbat or Holidays it is so much more then that in fact it is everything.

3. "Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this." - Actually there IS genetic proof of Jews being connected and related to each other even from opposite ends of the world especially with Kohanim and Levim. If you take one from one end of the world and another from the other end of the world they will have some genetic markers in the Y-DNA. Do you have to have the genetic markers to be a Jew? No of course not. As long as you convert according to Halacha or were born one according to Halacha then you are a Jew, but there IS genetic evidence connecting many if not most Jews, so you can not say their isn’t.

4. "I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history." - The Torah is not a book, its not just a book at all and if you would really read it or study it then you would know that. Just as Judaism is not just a religion. 
Can a book even an amazing one when it was written down 3320 years ago just be amazing or just a book when it has correct historical evidence written down from different nations that the nations themselves didn't have recorded correctly and then turn out to be right? Historically just about everything that was recorded in it has been proven correct - not to say that the rest has never been proven wrong, they just haven't been proven one way or the other yet. Medically everything it’s said to do or not to do has been proven to be best health wise and mercifully. This so called "book" has been historically, medically and mathematically accurate on everything, even its calendar is the only one that is correct unlike the Julian Calendar, the Chinese calendar or the Arabic calendar or any other calendar that is not a copy of it. How can a book even an amazing one do that if it is just a book? The answer; It can't.
 
5. Israel is a Jewish state but it is not a religious one that is why Arabs are unfortunately in government.

6. "By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews."
- Let me guess you are against tribalism right? Do you know if it wasn't for Jews helping Jews and putting their own first there would be NO Jews. No one - other then the minority few who are so rare that they are practically not there at all - ever helps Jews unless to try to bring their prophecy of the "Second coming" in to effect. People should help their own first, if everyone did their would be no one left for others to help since everyone would make sure their own was taken care of. Just because you are born to a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be taken away. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew and you will die a Jew. Every action we make is reflected on and affects other Jews, that’s how it works whether we like it or not.

7. There are 5,275,000 Jews in the United States that is the most in the world after Israel it self but then again there were more in Arabic countries before they were exiled too. 
 
8. "America existed just fine before 1948." – Of course it did, there have always been Jews in America since the time of the Pilgrims. What is your point? When it says "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you," "You" means the Jewish people, not the state of Israel. But in times where we are living in Israel it obviously goes for the home country of the Jews as well.

9. "Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel." - I don't know were you get your facts but you are extremely off base. Bush himself even said at a joint press conference with Ariel Sharon on April 11, 2005 "I strongly support [Prime Minister Sharon's] courageous initiative to disengage from Gaza and part of the West Bank. The Prime Minister is willing to coordinate the implementation of the disengagement plan with the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis. I urge the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi leadership to accept his offer. By working together, Israelis and PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis can lay the groundwork for a peaceful transition." This is just one of many things he said to support it. Further more not only did America support Israels decision to give up Gaza they gave $50 million to the "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi" Authority - which is like and connected to the PLO - to be used for new housing. Do you honestly truly think that the money went to housing and not weapons? Personally I believe they had much more a hand in the idea of giving it up then is known, but that’s just my opinion.

10. "Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat)." - How about when America didn't give a damn while Jews were being slaughtered in Europe? Or when Hitler first sent all the Jews out of Germany before he started the camps and Franklin Roosevelt sent them back and by doing so not only let a boat sink but gave the green light to wipe us out? Or in the way that when we were begging America to drop some bombs on the rail rode tracks they said they couldn't that they needed every last bomb, but ended up dumping them in to the sea?

11. America, like everywhere else, is not for Israel, it is for itself. Though, unlike many places they are not willing to risk harming themselves in order to destroy us, but don't fool yourself in to thinking they are our friend, or that a holocaust can not happen here. Just like what America did to the Japanese during WWII can happen to the Jews and worse. There already have been blood libels here in the United States. What ever happened in Germany can happen here.

12.
Being loyal to two countries will only get you so far; if you want to know where you stand, then figure out who you would be with if they went to war with each other.

13. G-d didn't punish the Jews of the Persian empire for celibrating a Goyish holiday, it was the fact that they were celbrating 70 years being up – or at least they thought it was - from Yirmiyahu's (Jeremiah's) prophecy of Israel returning back to their home and rebuilding the Beit Hamikdash which was a problem, along with the fact that everything there at the parties were braking Halacha. At the party the materials were made out of shatniss, the wine was forbidden, the food was not kosher, some of the cups used by the king and his court were from the Bait Hamikdash, along with MANY other things including the commentary that Achashverosh, and later on Vashti as well wore the Kohen Gadol's garments to the party.

14. "So what if someone is in and has a Gulut mentality?" - Tell me why do you think so many Jews go away? Or why the schools don't teach Torah properly? Or why we are still in Galut for that matter. If you can not answer these questions, or think that they don't matter, and that Galut is nothing then I'm sorry, but I have nothing further to say to you.


This is quite a bit of information and it will take me some time to read critically and ponder before I respond. Thanks for your interesting post.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 11:13:37 PM by Trumpeldor »

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2007, 11:39:15 PM »
please Jew by blood By faith Christian.

Have you never thought of returning to Judaism? You are fuly Jewish if your mother is a Jewess. You only need to say Shema Yisrael, and return!!!!

Offline maryjoe

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2007, 11:46:32 PM »
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
the problem is Hashem see's you as a Jew first who is in exil, and sooner or later will go back to Israel where he wants you.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2007, 12:40:18 AM »
Yacov is right.

I am Christian first, human second, American third.

I love my country but would still never put it above my basic faith identity.

Offline Israeli Mouse

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Re: American first, Jew second
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2007, 01:28:08 AM »
Quote
This is quite a bit of information and it will take me some time to read critically and ponder before I respond. Thanks for your interesting post.

No problem ;)
"Let us not suffer from a national amnesia that causes us to forget who and what we are."

-  Rav Kahane zt''l