Author Topic: Demons in Judaism?  (Read 8150 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Demons in Judaism?
« on: September 17, 2009, 12:25:38 PM »
A question inspired by a post by takebackourtemple in another thread:

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,37984.msg382842.html#msg382842

Interesting. Maybe she was a demon. Demon's are unfinished souls that were not completed before the day of rest. They often cause trouble, but often serve various purposes.

Is this an actual Judaic teaching? I thought that "demons" the way that Christianity understands them do not exist in Judaism. I thought that so-called "dark angels" and the devil in Judaism are merely obedient agents that Hashem uses to prosecute or judge mankind for sin or test its righteousness, but not players with free will and the ability to consciously choose evil.

What is the Jewish answer here?

Bonesfan

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 12:34:18 PM »
I'll let muman field this one.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 12:50:38 PM »
They exist according to the Talmud and definitely in kabbalah, but some people certainly do not believe in it.  I remember hearing that the Rambam said these things no longer exist.   (I guess rather than impugn the Talmud by saying they never did exist, he took the PC route and asserted that only now in our time they don't exist "anymore").   I think this is a philosophic point of dispute about whether there are such things.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10668
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2009, 02:00:28 PM »
They exists in Talmudic "fairy tales". Jews don't have to believe in this nonsense and most of us don't.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2009, 02:42:02 PM »
Demons or Sheidim, have been documented in Jewish literature. They are supposed to have chicken feet. I don't know exactly what they are or when they appear, but they are very scary. I've read about dybbuks as well. I believe in the supernatural and when I was child I was always afraid of the dark. I was always afraid of ghosts and all that. I still am, but I love the dark and now I can't sleep unless it's totally dark and I trust Hashem will protect me from whatever is lurking. I believe in the spiritual world and I believe the souls of our departed loved ones are always with us and they can see and hear us. I do admit though, sometimes the mind can play tricks on you and I've gotten worked up over weird things happening at critical times that are spooky and eerie.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2009, 03:03:23 PM »
Why are we discussing this topic just before Rosh Hashanah?

By mentioning the names of evil forces we give them strength.

There is no doubt that evil forces exist and it is a very deep topic. It is not just 'talmudic fairytails' as someone suggested...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10668
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2009, 03:47:25 PM »
The most familiar story about shedim in Judaism is the fable of King Solomon and Ashmedai.
http://www.classicalhebrewblog.com/2009/07/16/demons-in-jewish-mythology-ashmedai-part-2/
http://www.kingsolomonlegend.com/Solomon-and-Ashmedai.html

Anyway, this is just stories, fables, and if someone insist to take them literally... too bad.

Offline Hyades

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1417
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 04:05:52 PM »
I have already posted a link to an article from Wikipedia about that in the other thread. Read it.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2009, 07:04:24 PM »

Anyway, this is just stories, fables, and if someone insist to take them literally... too bad.

I agree.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2009, 07:24:22 PM »
From Ramchals "The Way of G-d":

http://www.torah.org/learning/ramchal/classes/class32.html


"The Way of G-d"
Part 1: "The Fundamental Principles of Reality"
Ch. 5: "The Spiritual Realm"


Paragraph 1

We're about to begin a rather long foray into the "backdrop" behind everything we know (and don't know)-- the spiritual realm. Let's remember from the outset, though, that we've already discussed G-d, who can be said to be the "backdrop *behind* the backdrop", if you will. So what we'll be focusing upon now are the various "paraphernalia" and "tools" G-d has set up and uses.

Ramchal starts off with a rather simple lay-out of a dualistic universe, indicating that there are *physical* things and *spiritual* things. Both realms have their own "laws" and fulfill their own objectives. (Note to those who'd argue that the world only appears to be dualistic, and that it's really a combination of material and spiritual: We'll soon see that only human beings are a true combination of material and spiritual.)

He then offers us some definitions.

Physical phenomena are things we can experience with our five senses (or with devices that expand on them), regardless of how vast or minute, blunt or subtle, they may be. They’re either close at hand, here on earth; or far off in the heavens.

Spiritual phenomena are things we can't experience with our five senses (nor by means of any devices), and they too are either "close at hand" (which is to say, they're either *souls* that connect to physical bodies); or they're "far off in the heavens" (or they’re *transcendent entities* that don't connect to physical bodies).

There are two types of transcendent entities: *forces* or *angels*. We'll explain forces later on in the course of this chapter. Angels are immaterial, celestial agents of change, rather than the sort of "fairies", "winged spirits", or the like they're often taken to be.

There's actually also a *third* sort of phenomenon that's neither specifically spiritual or physical but acts as an intermediary between the two, known as "sheidim" in Hebrew. That term is usually translated as "demons", which has a decidedly sinister ring to it. "Phantoms" or "ghosts" are closer to the sense of the word; but those terms also carry certain connotations that are off the mark.

Suffice it to say that "sheidim" are phenomena that can't be experienced with the five senses, so they might be thought to be spiritual; yet they interface with the material world, so they might be thought to be physical. But they're actually of a class all their own, and are neither spiritual nor physical. It's pointed out in the Talmud that sheidim are all around us all the time. They’re more numerous than we, and we'd in fact be thunderstruck and undone if we were actually able to see them (Tractate Berachos 6A).


And then there’s humankind. We are the only entities that are comprised of both a spiritual soul and a physical body. While other, lesser beings like animals *do* have a soul, it would be more accurate to characterize their "souls" as "energy fields" rather than actual souls. For while those energy fields are truly the most ethereal of all physical phenomena, they're nonetheless not spiritual.

Our human souls are utterly transcendent, and they don't express themselves in the course of our day-to-day experiences. For, again, they’re non-physical and hence can't be detected by any of our five senses. Hence when people speak of "being in touch with their souls" they mean to say that they're in touch with their deepest feelings, aspirations, or convictions. For the soul simply can't be experienced through the senses (or the heart-- since the things we sense in our hearts are rooted on a very deep and subtle level in the sense of touch).



http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5767/nitzvay67/navi.htm
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/pesachim/insites/ps-dt-109.htm


109b
2) "ZUGOS" AND "SHEIDIM"

    The Gemara discusses at length the concern of performing certain actions in pairs (such as eating or drinking a multiple of two of any item), and how doing so gives certain power to the Sheidim to do harm. What is the understanding behind the Gemara's concern for Zugos, and do the Gemara's statements apply to us, nowadays?

    [1] WHY "ZUGOS?"

        The Acharonim propose different rationalizations for the phenomenon of "Zugos," or pairs?

            (a) The SEFER MALKIEL teaches that the existence of Sheidim represents the forces of nature through which Hashem punishes those who demonstrate a lack of faith in Hashem. The primary description of Hashem that we know is that Hashem is One. He is the ultimate and only One, the pure Singularity in the world. When a person performs an act of Zugos, or "multiplicity," he gives the Sheidim a foothold by demonstrating a lack of Oneness in the world. When a person eats an odd number, such as three, then the even numbers pair and cancel each other out leaving a singular "one," and that is why the Sheidim have no power over odd numbers.

            (b) The MAHARAL (Gevuros Hashem, ch. 38; Be'er ha'Golah, Be'er ha'Sheni, p. 28; Nesivos Olam, end of Nesiv ha'Avodah) adds a reason to explain *why* the Sheidim dominate wherever there is a lack of Yichud Hashem.

            The Maharal explains that the Sheidim are a secondary consequence of the Creation of the world. That is, when Hashem created the world, a secondary outgrowth was the development of Sheidim. That is, they were not meant to be the purpose of Creation, like the other creatures of the world. Rather, they are a consequence of Creation, and they came into being since the world would not be complete without them. Since their whole existence is secondary, i.e. with a less direct connection to Hashem, they have power over anything that is secondary, i.e. which is less directly connected to Hashem.

            (c) Following the path of the Rambam, who, in Moreh Nevuchim, rationalizes most Mitzvos that seemingly lack purpose by connecting them to the practice of early idolators, the following may be suggested. One of the basic tenets of the belief of the polytheists, who believed that there were many gods, was that all of the gods stemmed from two basic forces, one of good and one of bad (Sanhedrin 39a). Therefore, they had a practice to make sure to eat two of everything to satisfy the forces of both good and evil. For this reason, the Rabanan decreed that the Jews should be careful not to eat two of everything, and certainly not to do so intentionally, for doing so demonstrates a trace of idolatry for which a person will be punished. (M. Kornfeld)

    [II] "ZUGOS" TODAY

        What is the Halachah? Do the stringencies of Zugos apply today?

            (a) The RASHBAM (110a, DH Rabah) writes that as time went on, the concern for Zugos decreased more and more. (According to the third explanation above this is very logical, because no one remembers nowadays how the idolaters used to conduct themselves.) We find that even in the times of the Amora'im, the concern for Zugos was decreasing, as the Rashbam explains.

            TOSFOS (Yoma 77b and Chulin 107b) explains that nowadays (that is, during the times of Tosfos), we no longer show any concern for Zugos at all. Apparently, he explains, the forces that had power over Zugos have become so diminished that they are extremely rare and do not warrant any concern.

            However, the TUR (OC 170) briefly writes that one should not eat or drink anything in pairs. He also mentions (OC 183) that a person should not recite Birkas ha'Mazon after drinking two cups of wine during the meal, because he will be so worried about Sheidim harming him that he will not be able to concentrate on the blessings. The BEIS YOSEF there writes that the Tur should have omitted this Halachah, because Tosfos writes that the Sheidim are no longer prevalent, and in the SHULCHAN ARUCH he indeed leaves them out. The Acharonim suggest various answers as to why the Tur mentions Zugos at all.

            Perhaps the TUR mentions the Halachah of Zugos with regard to Birkas ha'Mazon because in the case of Birkas ha'Mazon, it is a matter of one's ability to concentrate on the blessings. A person might not be able to concentrate if he drank two cups during the meal, because he is so worried about being harmed by Sheidim. Even though, in reality, there is no longer any concern for Sheidim, some people are still worried about them, and such a person's mind will not be clear and calm enough to concentrate when he recites Birkas ha'Mazon. Therefore, the Tur says that he should not recite Birkas ha'Mazon after drinking two cups.

            Why, though, does the Tur mention that a person should avoid eating or drinking in pairs? It could be that even though right now the Sheidim are no longer prevalent, and in everday practice we do not have to be concerned with eating Zugos, nevertheless, the Tur means to caution that we should never enact a decree or create a custom that involves eating or doing something in pairs. The reason for this is twofold. First of all, perhaps the Sheidim will return. Furthermore, the Gemara (110b) says that even when the Sheidim have no power, "Kishuf," witchcraft, still has power over Zugos. That is, if a sorceror sees someone eating Zugos, he can harm him more easily. Although, we are normally not concerned with the possibility of "Kishuf," since it is rather rare to meet up with a sorceror, nevertheless, a decree or custom that will put a person in danger of Kishuf should be avoided.

    QUESTION: We might ask, how could the Rabanan make an enactment to eat Lechem Mishnah -- two loaves -- on Shabbos? That should be a problem of Zugos just like drinking the Arba Kosos!

    ANSWERS:

        (a) When it comes to the Arba Kosos, the Rabanan decreed that one must drink the entire cup (and by drinking a majority of the cup, one is considered as if he had consumed the entire cup). In contrast, when it comes to Lechem Mishnah, there is no requirement to eat two *entire* loaves of bread. Just reciting ha'Motzi over Lechem Mishnah is not considered Zugos. (Y. Shaw)

        (b) Our Gemara (110b) says that loaves of bread does not have a problem of Zugos because they are "completed in the hands of man." (However, some old texts of the Gemara, as well as that of Rabeinu Chananel, do not have the Girsa there of "Kikaros.")

        (c) The MAHARSHAM cites the Zohar (Parashat Ekev, p. 273a) that asks this question and answers that Sheidim do not have dominion on Shabbos (although they apparently *do* have dominion on Yom Tov, as we see from the Gemara's question concerning the Arba Kosos). RAV YAKOV EMDEN asks that our Gemara (112b) concludes that the Sheidim are *more* prevalent on Friday night than during the week! In fact, this is why we do not recite the verses normally recited before Shemoneh Esreh (in Chutz l'Aretz) on Friday night; so that we will finish Ma'ariv late and have to return home after dark, and after the lamps have gone out (TUR OC 267, citing the Ge'onim).

        How is this to be reconciled with the Zohar, which says that the Sheidim have no power on Shabbos? Furthermore, He answers that the Zohar itself asks this question (Vayakhel 205a). The Zohar answers that the Rabim (public) have nothing to fear on Shabbos. Individuals, though, could be affected by the forces of the Sheidim on Shabbos. Since Lechem Mishnah was enacted for everyone, there is no concern for Sheidim. An individual, though, should not go out alone on Friday night, out of concern for the Sheidim that dominate then.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 07:30:55 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 07:36:59 PM »
Of course everyone can believe what he/she wants to believe about the spiritual world... But there is much to be learned from our sages.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 09:33:04 PM »
Of course everyone can believe what he/she wants to believe about the spiritual world...

Indeed.

Here is Mesora.org's Rabbi Moshe Ben-Chaim's explanation of "Shaydim" as they appear in Talmud Bavli.

http://www.mesora.org/shadim.html

Shadim - "Demons"




Moshe Ben-Chaim
 







Compared to the thousands of ideas in the Babylonian Talmud, there are relatively few instances of the term "shadim", usually translated as "demons". Regardless of this infrequent appearance, the concept deserves elucidation. As in all cases, especially when one approaches an area where the Rabbis discuss unusual and almost impossible phenomena, a rational and objective approach must be maintained. If we look into the instances regarding shadim, we find that the Rabbis tell us not to give greetings to others, if we are in a field, or at night, lest he be a "shade". Other cases where one is warned also include pits, and mountain tops.




Additionally, a Talmudic portion (Gittin 66a) states that if one hears a voice calling from a pit, (telling anyone who hears) to divorce his wife, we listen to him. The gemora asks, "perhaps it is a shade? No. It is when you see a shadow. But the shadim also can have shadows? No. You also saw a shadow of a shadow." On the surface, this is a very strange gemara indeed. But there must be an idea here.




There are a number of questions:

1) Can it be taken literally that there are demons running around the earth? Have any of us ever seen one?

2) Why are we not admonished from greeting our friends in the city? Why is the warning only in the fields, pits, night time, and mountain tops? Are shadim unable to enter cities? This is truly odd.

3) What is the warning about? Will they harm us? If so, what's the difference if we greet them or not? Can they not harm us equally whether or not we greet them?

4) In Gittin 66a, how does a shadow prove that it is not a shade?

 

I believe the answer to all these questions can be approached by first looking at one peculiar bit of information - that is, the location where we are warned not to greet friends. All the cases, pits, fields, mountain tops, night time, are cases where one is in a situation of isolation to some degree. Either geographical isolation (mountain tops. pits/caves, or fields) or psychological isolation: at night.




What does isolation do to a person?




Man, a social creature by definition, fears isolation more than anything. This is why solitary confinement is the worst type of imprisonment. Isolation is even recognized by the Prophets as one of the worst situations, and requires one to 'bench gomel', (praising G-d for being saved) as we read in Psalms, 107:4, "They wandered in the wilderness, in the desolation of the path, they found no inhabited city." Not finding inhabitants is utterly distressing, to the point that King David made mention of it here in Psalms.

When one is isolated, his desire to be around civilization causes him to project onto reality - he will think he sees someone. But it is all an illusion to satisfy his fear, his loneliness. Thus, what the Rabbis are telling us not to offer greetings to is in fact our 'psychological fantasies'. Greeting that which is a mirage, is crossing the line from fantasy to reality, one of man's worst crimes. The Rabbis, knowing that these shadim are truly daydreams or illusions, enjoined us not to 'talk to them'. Talking to a mirage elevates fantasy to  reality. There are so many areas of the Torah which deter man from living an illusory life, that the Rabbis saw it fit here too, to remove us from this behavior. Talking to a phantom of the mind gives credence to it. The Torah desires that man abandon all that is false, "midvar skeker tirchak", "from falsehoods, keep distant".

This now explains why the gemara in Gittin said that if there was a shadow, then it is a real person, and you can divorce the wife of this person in the pit, although you do not see him clearly. When a person creates these illusion to comfort himself, that people are in fact around, he only creates the minimal information needed to convince himself of this. That is, either a form of the person's face, his height, his hair color, or something else distinct to the person he desires to be around. But what is not needed, is not created, such as a shadow. This offers the person's psyche no comfort, and is therefore not created by the fantasy. Therefore, if one sees a shadow, it most probably is a real person. The gemara goes on to suggest that even shadim have shadows. This means that in some cases, one will create a more defined illusion. This is possible, so the gemora adds that when there's a "shadow of a shadow", then for certain, it is not a shade. This means that a completely detailed illusions do not exist, and hence, it must be a real person one is seeing, and greetings are then permitted, and divorced allowed.

It now makes sense that shadim don't enter cities. Deciphered, this mashal (allegory) means that images of friends are not created when they are in reality near to us, as is found when we are in cities. Here, no need exists in our psyches to create illusions. At night however, when we are psychologically alone, or in fields, we will create images to comfort us.

In summary, shadim, according to the Rabbis, are created to satisfy real concerns, but they are fantasies created in our minds. As the Rabbis warned us, we should not cross over the correct path of life by treating fantasy as reality, even when we 'see' it. How much more so when we don't.

 

Addendum

I would also mention the Rashi in parshas Noach, that Noach took two of every species, "even shadim" in to the ark. I believe this fits in well with our theory. Noach was now embarking on a state of isolation aboard the ark. Perhaps Rashi is intimating this aspect of isolation by suggesting euphemistically that Noach entered shadim into the ark.


Offline takebackourtemple

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 2449
  • May this be the year that the temple is liberated.
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 10:29:36 PM »
Why are we discussing this topic just before Rosh Hashanah?

By mentioning the names of evil forces we give them strength.

There is no doubt that evil forces exist and it is a very deep topic. It is not just 'talmudic fairytails' as someone suggested...



The Jewish view about demons is not the same as the Christian view. While demons often mischievous, they are not inherently evil. Like Angels, they serve a purpose for Hashem.
Does it bother you that you have to face the dome and the rock to say the sh'ma?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 11:23:32 PM »
Why are we discussing this topic just before Rosh Hashanah?

By mentioning the names of evil forces we give them strength.


I don't think I saw anyone 'naming' demons in this thread, but anyway it is good to talk Torah before, during and after Rosh Hashanah.     

That sounds really funny... Namin' Demons.... instead of "gone' fishin"   lol

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10668
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2009, 03:43:27 AM »
I wonder if there is a linguistic relation between Hebrew "shed" and English "shadow".

Offline Hyades

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1417
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2009, 04:17:28 AM »
I wonder if there is a linguistic relation between Hebrew "shed" and English "shadow".

No, there isn't.

Online Hrvatski Noahid

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5854
Re: Demons in Judaism?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2023, 09:27:22 AM »
The evil inclination and the power of desire that strains after forbidden things is a demon. (Seven Gates of Righteous Knowledge by Rabbi Weiner and Dr. Schulman, p 137)
Gentiles are obligated to fulfill the Seven Noahide Commandments because they are the eternal command of God, transmitted through Moses our teacher in the Torah. The main and best book on details of Noahide observance is "The Divine Code" by Rabbi Moshe Weiner.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCffOR1kc1bBK9HwP8kQdSXg
Telegram: https://t.me/JewishTaskForceChat
Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Noachide/