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Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)
Dovid_2:
--- Quote from: Hrvatski Noahid on September 12, 2025, 04:22:53 AM ---I disagree, Chaim. It is Christianity which teaches that sincere repentance is not accepted and you need Jesus. You can ask the victim's soul for forgiveness and you can bring the victim back to life with reincarnation and resurrection.
--- End quote ---
It is the church which sold "indulgences" for any sin, not Judaism. Did one necessarily require Jesus for the allowance? No. You only needed to pay someone who was recognized as an authority by the church. Christianity will try and muddy the waters of debate on what exactly an "indulgence" was. But the fact is, at its very common denominator, it was payment for permission to commit a sin, and even if that's not what its original intention was, that's what it became, and it was approved by the Church even in its final form. And the only reason why they curtailed it is because it's embarrassing to them.
--- Quote ---Cain was an intentional murderer. But God came to him and said to him, "if you will improve yourself, you will be forgiven" (Genesis 4:7). As an eternal lesson for all generations, God instructed Cain about the ability to repent, which is in the hands of every person: to repent and return to God at any time one desires and makes the decision to do so, and God will forgive him.
--- End quote ---
Do I need to point out the obvious that verse 7 in Chapter 4 comes before the next verse in which Cain murders Abel? G-D is telling Cain in verse 7 to improve himself and if he does he will be successful. Cain was born with bad ethical faculties (I drew this inference from Ibn Ezra on this verse, who states that Cain committed sins), Abel had good ethical faculties.
I won't go into great detail, but the Student states that those born with bad ethical faculties "die young" and are "...cast out from the midst of man". But Judaism is not Calvinist Christianity (lehavdil elef havdalot) and we do not believe in predeterminism. Even one who is "cast out" (i.e. born with bad ethical faculties) is told by G-D to try hard. What precisely the mechanism of salvation is for such a person is beyond our knowledge. In medieval times, Jews adopted the theory of the "gilgul" (transmigration of souls). Not everyone accepts this theory, and this is beyond the scope of this discussion.
To conclude, G-D is not forgiving Cain for the sin, to the contrary, G-D goes on to curse him in the following verses.
Out of respect for Chaim I have held back my acerbic disposition and my acid tongue in my refutation, but please study your sources carefully next time before writing blindly.
Hrvatski Noahid:
--- Quote from: Dovid_2 on September 12, 2025, 02:25:15 PM ---Do I need to point out the obvious that verse 7 in Chapter 4 comes before the next verse in which Cain murders Abel? G-D is telling Cain in verse 7 to improve himself and if he does he will be successful.
--- End quote ---
There is no sequence of earlier and later incidents in the Torah, as Rashi explains on Exodus 19:11.
My worry is the major codifications of Noahide law teach there is no blemish of sin that cannot be washed away. It is true that sins against people will not be forgiven by God until the one who committed the sin makes restitution to the victim and asks for his forgiveness. But the murderer can ask for forgiveness from the victim's soul.
Dovid_2:
--- Quote from: Hrvatski Noahid on September 12, 2025, 03:03:31 PM ---There is no sequence of earlier and later incidents in the Torah, as Rashi explains on Exodus 19:11.
--- End quote ---
My goodness! How you misunderstand Rashi and apply such a coarse interpretation to the entire Torah! Rashi is speaking of chronology when it comes to explaining rote, per se. Heaven forbid one should apply this interpretation and introduce anachronisms into the most basic Biblical narratives.
--- Quote ---But the murderer can ask for forgiveness from the victim's soul.
--- End quote ---
Again, don't go around advertising this, just like you should not go around and advertise the halacha that one is permitted to kill a man who commits adultery with the specific intention of desecrating G-D's name.
Hrvatski Noahid:
--- Quote from: Dovid_2 on September 12, 2025, 03:14:51 PM ---Again, don't go around advertising this, just like you should not go around and advertise the halacha that one is permitted to kill a man who commits adultery with the specific intention of desecrating G-D's name.
--- End quote ---
If Chaim's video claims there is no forgiveness for murder, it is appropriate to mention the actual law.
cjd:
I have seen some bad threads on this forum during my time here ( which is from the very start) but this one takes the cake... There is no escape of punishment for willful murder in Christian doctrine... Its considered a mortal sin... There will be a price to pay in the so called next world... Lesser sins might be absolved but as Chaim pointed out murder is not one of them... I don't see how moving and a person changing their name could absolve a sin like willful murder no mater any amount of repentance.
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