JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IslamIsCancer on June 17, 2008, 04:25:33 AM
-
1. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered Zionists if they support Israel's existence and expansion?
2. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered righteous individuals or is it necessary for them to believe in a higher power?
3. Is it better to be honest about one's disbelief in a higher power than to pretend that one is a believer?
I'm asking this because sometimes Christians accuse me of being a traitor when they hear that I don't believe in god.
Would they say the same thing if they knew that I'm on their side?
-
have not these questions been around not long ago? and you don't believe in G-d?
-
1. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered Zionists if they support Israel's existence and expansion?
Yes
pro christian doesn't change things.
Jabotinsky was an atheist, even a bit anti religious, but he was a zionist that went around lecturing jews trying to save them, to get them to go to israel, way before the holocaust, and perhaps during. Rabbi Kahane ztl hyd saw himself as continuing where jabotinsky left off.
Jabotinsky used to talk at rabbi kahane's father's house(house of rabbi charles kahane), and was a big influence on the young Meir.
2. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered righteous individuals or is it necessary for them to believe in a higher power?
believing in the Torah and thus following the 7 noachide laws, would be ideal.
there are gentiles that hid jews in their homes during the holocaust. Many may have been atheists, and they have been honoured by the major holocaust memorial organisation yad vashem, as righteous amongst the nations.
One might say that any gentile JTFer is a righteous gentile. Infact, that might just be an obvious thing..
3. Is it better to be honest about one's disbelief in a higher power than to pretend that one is a believer?
I'm asking this because sometimes Christians accuse me of being a traitor when they hear that I don't believe in G-d.
Would they say the same thing if they knew that I'm on their side?
Maybe telling them you're not sure that G-d exists, would be better. Don't make them think you're trying to take jesus away from them!!!!!! If you say flatly you're an atheist, they may take that as a challenge.
-
We are in WAR together. Schindler was (as a person, VERY unrighteous) What he DID made him a righteous man, and he is on the Avenue of the Righteous in Israel, and because of what he did, there are over 6,000 Jews today.
You and I, have had a disagreement in the past, but I would want YOU covering my back, if G-d forbid, I had a fatwah, etc... You, a traitor? I would stand with you, side by side, if we were in a battle- I would NOT think of you as: "Well I cant fight with HIM, because he is an atheist" THAT is RIDICULOUS. This is what I am always talking about on my audios, The Christian church nowadays, is the only army on the face of the Earth to wound its own, and they take prisoners on the way. Just ask THEM: "WHERE IS THE LOVE" Or, "IS THIS how the savior written of in the N.T. would actually talk to someone?" I, personally have a VERY CLOSE friend that is an atheist, in 1990, I was VERY ill, she was the ONLY one who showed me ANY compassion or empathy, and her righteousnes exceeded ANY persons righteousness of the people around me, most of whom were Jews, AND Christians. These people that you deal with are immature.. I have seen love and respect shown here to you in EXCELLENT form, by Jew and Christian alike. Just stick with people that have stuck with you, and CLEARLY here, they have stuck with you.
-
We are in WAR together. Schindler was (as a person, VERY unrighteous) What he DID made him a righteous man, and he is on the Avenue of the Righteous in Israel, and because of what he did, there are over 6,000 Jews today.
You and I, have had a disagreement in the past, but I would want YOU covering my back, if G-d forbid, I had a fatwah, etc... You, a traitor? I would stand with you, side by side, if we were in a battle- I would NOT think of you as: "Well I cant fight with HIM, because he is an atheist" THAT is RIDICULOUS. This is what I am always talking about on my audios, The Christian church nowadays, is the only army on the face of the Earth to wound its own, and they take prisoners on the way. Just ask THEM: "WHERE IS THE LOVE" Or, "IS THIS how the savior written of in the N.T. would actually talk to someone?" I, personally have a VERY CLOSE friend that is an atheist, in 1990, I was VERY ill, she was the ONLY one who showed me ANY compassion or empathy, and her righteousnes exceeded ANY persons righteousness of the people around me, most of whom were Jews, AND Christians. These people that you deal with are immature.. I have seen love and respect shown here to you in EXCELLENT form, by Jew and Christian alike. Just stick with people that have stuck with you, and CLEARLY here, they have stuck with you.
I agree with you, those Christians who harass me and call me a traitor ARE DOING NOTHING to stop Islam, at least I'm uploading videos and lecturing people. Those are the turn the other cheek WIMPS who love their enemies. And they call ME a traitor.
-
1. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered Zionists if they support Israel's existence and expansion?
Yes
pro christian doesn't change things.
Jabotinsky was an atheist, even a bit anti religious, but he was a zionist that went around lecturing jews trying to save them, to get them to go to israel, way before the holocaust, and perhaps during. Rabbi Kahane ztl hyd saw himself as continuing where jabotinsky left off.
Jabotinsky used to talk at rabbi kahane's father's house(house of rabbi charles kahane), and was a big influence on the young Meir.
2. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered righteous individuals or is it necessary for them to believe in a higher power?
believing in the Torah and thus following the 7 noachide laws, would be ideal.
there are gentiles that hid jews in their homes during the holocaust. Many may have been atheists, and they have been honoured by the major holocaust memorial organisation yad vashem, as righteous amongst the nations.
One might say that any gentile JTFer is a righteous gentile. Infact, that might just be an obvious thing..
3. Is it better to be honest about one's disbelief in a higher power than to pretend that one is a believer?
I'm asking this because sometimes Christians accuse me of being a traitor when they hear that I don't believe in G-d.
Would they say the same thing if they knew that I'm on their side?
Maybe telling them you're not sure that G-d exists, would be better. Don't make them think you're trying to take jesus away from them!!!!!! If you say flatly you're an atheist, they may take that as a challenge.
Very well put, q_q, thanks for the information, I didn't know Jaobtinsky was an atheist? In any event, he was righteous and militant so that's what counts. O0
-
1. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered Zionists if they support Israel's existence and expansion?
Yes
pro christian doesn't change things.
Jabotinsky was an atheist, even a bit anti religious, but he was a zionist that went around lecturing jews trying to save them, to get them to go to israel, way before the holocaust, and perhaps during. Rabbi Kahane ztl hyd saw himself as continuing where jabotinsky left off.
Jabotinsky used to talk at rabbi kahane's father's house(house of rabbi charles kahane), and was a big influence on the young Meir.
2. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered righteous individuals or is it necessary for them to believe in a higher power?
believing in the Torah and thus following the 7 noachide laws, would be ideal.
there are gentiles that hid jews in their homes during the holocaust. Many may have been atheists, and they have been honoured by the major holocaust memorial organisation yad vashem, as righteous amongst the nations.
One might say that any gentile JTFer is a righteous gentile. Infact, that might just be an obvious thing..
3. Is it better to be honest about one's disbelief in a higher power than to pretend that one is a believer?
I'm asking this because sometimes Christians accuse me of being a traitor when they hear that I don't believe in G-d.
Would they say the same thing if they knew that I'm on their side?
Maybe telling them you're not sure that G-d exists, would be better. Don't make them think you're trying to take jesus away from them!!!!!! If you say flatly you're an atheist, they may take that as a challenge.
Thanks for the comment, so basically I can call myself a Zionist!!
-
Thanks for the comment, so basically I can call myself a Zionist!!
and a Kahanist, which is a super zionist.
-
1. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered Zionists if they support Israel's existence and expansion?
Yes
pro christian doesn't change things.
Jabotinsky was an atheist, even a bit anti religious, but he was a zionist that went around lecturing jews trying to save them, to get them to go to israel, way before the holocaust, and perhaps during. Rabbi Kahane ztl hyd saw himself as continuing where jabotinsky left off.
Jabotinsky used to talk at rabbi kahane's father's house(house of rabbi charles kahane), and was a big influence on the young Meir.
2. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered righteous individuals or is it necessary for them to believe in a higher power?
believing in the Torah and thus following the 7 noachide laws, would be ideal.
there are gentiles that hid jews in their homes during the holocaust. Many may have been atheists, and they have been honoured by the major holocaust memorial organisation yad vashem, as righteous amongst the nations.
One might say that any gentile JTFer is a righteous gentile. Infact, that might just be an obvious thing..
3. Is it better to be honest about one's disbelief in a higher power than to pretend that one is a believer?
I'm asking this because sometimes Christians accuse me of being a traitor when they hear that I don't believe in G-d.
Would they say the same thing if they knew that I'm on their side?
Maybe telling them you're not sure that G-d exists, would be better. Don't make them think you're trying to take jesus away from them!!!!!! If you say flatly you're an atheist, they may take that as a challenge.
Very well put, q_q, thanks for the information, I didn't know Jaobtinsky was an atheist? In any event, he was righteous and militant so that's what counts. O0
Militant, yea, rightious- not soo sure, I do not want to judge him, expecialy because he is dead, and a Jew can make complete Tishuva even 1 second before their death, but I do not believe that we can lie (even to ourselves) in calling someone like him rightious, expecialy because he was athiest, and made anti-religious statements (as brought in the video by Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shlita "zionism and the zionists" or something like that.)
-
1. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered Zionists if they support Israel's existence and expansion?
Yes
pro christian doesn't change things.
Jabotinsky was an atheist, even a bit anti religious, but he was a zionist that went around lecturing jews trying to save them, to get them to go to israel, way before the holocaust, and perhaps during. Rabbi Kahane ztl hyd saw himself as continuing where jabotinsky left off.
Jabotinsky used to talk at rabbi kahane's father's house(house of rabbi charles kahane), and was a big influence on the young Meir.
2. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered righteous individuals or is it necessary for them to believe in a higher power?
believing in the Torah and thus following the 7 noachide laws, would be ideal.
there are gentiles that hid jews in their homes during the holocaust. Many may have been atheists, and they have been honoured by the major holocaust memorial organisation yad vashem, as righteous amongst the nations.
One might say that any gentile JTFer is a righteous gentile. Infact, that might just be an obvious thing..
3. Is it better to be honest about one's disbelief in a higher power than to pretend that one is a believer?
I'm asking this because sometimes Christians accuse me of being a traitor when they hear that I don't believe in G-d.
Would they say the same thing if they knew that I'm on their side?
Maybe telling them you're not sure that G-d exists, would be better. Don't make them think you're trying to take jesus away from them!!!!!! If you say flatly you're an atheist, they may take that as a challenge.
Very well put, q_q, thanks for the information, I didn't know Jaobtinsky was an atheist? In any event, he was righteous and militant so that's what counts. O0
Militant, yea, rightious- not soo sure, I do not want to judge him, expecialy because he is dead, and a Jew can make complete Tishuva even 1 second before their death, but I do not believe that we can lie (even to ourselves) in calling someone like him rightious, expecialy because he was athiest, and made anti-religious statements (as brought in the video by Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shlita "zionism and the zionists" or something like that.)
Tzvi please stop with the splinter group tendencies. Are you seriously saying that Jabotinsky was not righteous. He was much more righteous then all the religious jews at the time. Chaim talked about that in this weeks ask jtf. Jabotinsky was the only one operating to save jews during the holocaust. You better be careful when you address a person like this. He had real mesiras nefesh to save jews. We have rabbis today like ovadia yosef living in the utmost of luxury. You would thing a man like him who lives in Israel, has a comfortable life, collects a nice income from the fraud of his shas party, you would think he would at least try to save so jews from being rocketed to death. He wouldn't have to sacrifice very much at all unlike jabotinsky who was working with nothing during world war 2.
-
dwi - I did not call him "Wicked", but said that he was not rightious. Anyway he has nothing to do with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita, and stop always turning things around and just cursing everyone in almost all your posts.
You see rightious in your own way, I see it more closer from the Torah. The Torah defines what Jews need to do, and what might make someone rightious or not. For one being an athiest (denying the goodness G-d does) does not make one rightious, and in addition to that following Mitzvot expecialy like Shabb-t. Also Their was much more, expecialy in the video by the great Rav, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shlita (One of the greatest Rabbi's of today's generation).
-
Righteous does not mean religious. It means morally correct
according to http://dictionary.cambridge.org
and
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/righteous?view=uk
and you don't get more authoritative than that for a dictionary.
jabotinsky devoted his life to saving jews, that's very moral.
He was a revionist zionist, prob the first. In his time, the first secular zionists were against saving religious jews.. He was the first of the improved batch! He wanted to save jews religious or not.
He would have discussions with rabbi charles kahane, and young meir would listen, and admired him greatly.
-
Tzvi, I view the torah as righteous just as much as you do. My difference with you is that you feel that anyone who is a torah scholar is righteous when I dont. Jabotinsky risked his life to save jews when nobody including the religious would. How the hell could you call him anything other than righteous.
-
1. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered Zionists if they support Israel's existence and expansion?
2. Can pro-Jewish, pro-Christian atheists be considered righteous individuals or is it necessary for them to believe in a higher power?
3. Is it better to be honest about one's disbelief in a higher power than to pretend that one is a believer?
I'm asking this because sometimes Christians accuse me of being a traitor when they hear that I don't believe in G-d.
Would they say the same thing if they knew that I'm on their side?
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
Firstly, Herzl was not a zionist. He wanted a state un Uganda. Is far as the righteousness is concerned, I too feel that righteousness and g-d fearing are two seperate things.
-
We are in WAR together. Schindler was (as a person, VERY unrighteous) What he DID made him a righteous man, and he is on the Avenue of the Righteous in Israel, and because of what he did, there are over 6,000 Jews today.
You and I, have had a disagreement in the past, but I would want YOU covering my back, if G-d forbid, I had a fatwah, etc... You, a traitor? I would stand with you, side by side, if we were in a battle- I would NOT think of you as: "Well I cant fight with HIM, because he is an atheist" THAT is RIDICULOUS. This is what I am always talking about on my audios, The Christian church nowadays, is the only army on the face of the Earth to wound its own, and they take prisoners on the way. Just ask THEM: "WHERE IS THE LOVE" Or, "IS THIS how the savior written of in the N.T. would actually talk to someone?" I, personally have a VERY CLOSE friend that is an atheist, in 1990, I was VERY ill, she was the ONLY one who showed me ANY compassion or empathy, and her righteousnes exceeded ANY persons righteousness of the people around me, most of whom were Jews, AND Christians. These people that you deal with are immature.. I have seen love and respect shown here to you in EXCELLENT form, by Jew and Christian alike. Just stick with people that have stuck with you, and CLEARLY here, they have stuck with you.
I agree with you, those Christians who harass me and call me a traitor ARE DOING NOTHING to stop Islam, at least I'm uploading videos and lecturing people. Those are the turn the other cheek WIMPS who love their enemies. And they call ME a traitor.
There are people that are HAVES (you), and there are people who are HAVE NOTS, the people around you: HAVE NOT.
Christians are suppose to "Love one another"- that means "each-other" in their faith.. I have been reading in this N.T. today, and let me tell you- it does NOT say ANYWHERE to love ANYONE that is threatening to DEVOUR a WHOLE nation. There are although many scriptures making references to (swords, and he did not come to bring peace, but a sword, etc...)
So, without 'missionizing' sometimes you have to USE peoples words to bring THEM into THE REAL TRUTH. I did today with someone who is just like what you describe, and won my argument- VERY effectively.
I just used the WORDS that she 'believes', it SILENCED her after three hours of revealing her HYPOCRICY.
I HATE THAT, and in the words of Patton: SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND MEAN WHAT YOU SAY!!
Also- YES! YOU ARE A GREAT GREAT ZIONIST, not a religious one actually if you want to use the word RIGHTEOUS, it really IS better, however I can see your obvious fight for the sake of Zionism AND Righteousness, and you ARE in MY thoughts, CONSTANTLY. You are a HERO. A CHAMPION.
HERE: From a Portugee Crypto Jew gal:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sTeY7OQdupw These words of this SONG are FOR YOU. YOU KEEP FIGHTING. You will be in HISTORY as a person that fought off a huge Dragon And Beast. O0 ;) O0 & SLAYED the beast CONSTANTLY. Heros and Champions are always known AFTER they are GONE. :'(
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
I have no logic? Actually...it's logical what i say..it's you who doesn't understand my logic.
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
Firstly, Herzl was not a zionist. He wanted a state un Uganda. Is far as the righteousness is concerned, I too feel that righteousness and g-d fearing are two seperate things.
Let me clarify what I mean by "Gd fearling" and "righteous".
An old woman needs help crossing the street:
1. A righteous person goes and helps her across.
2. A wicked person mugs her and takes her purse.
3. A Gd fearing person will go and help her only because it is the right thing to do, he's afraid Gd will punish him if he doesn't help her, and is also afraid that a mugger will come and take her purse.
But why does #1 go and help? For what reason? He'll say, "It's the right thing to do." But why? Because an old lady is helpless and she needs help and it's the right thing to do. The thing is #2 can justify mugging her by saying, "well, she doesn't need the purse anyway because she will die anyday. I'm doing her a favor because it is the right thing to do."
#3 also helps her because he knows it is the right thing and knows why it is the right thing to do.
#1 can make an excuse to do what #2 would do. Therefore a "righteous" person who doesn't believe in Gd can be as easily inclined to do evil because he doesn't fear a god that doesn't exist to him. However, if #1 were truely righteous, he may not really understand why it is a good thing, but deep in his heart without him knowing, he is fearing Gd if he doesn't help her.
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
I have no logic? Actually...it's logical what i say..it's you who doesn't understand my logic.
Oh for goodness sake!!! MY GOSH! IslamISCancer is being called a TRAITOR. These are tremendous words that can really get to a person when in a fight for RIGHT. IslamIsCancer is a HUGE fan of Chaim ben Pesach & Rabbi Kahane, he NEEDS UPLIFTING. BOTH of you men are smart and VERY LOGICAL.
I know what it is like to be called these words, and being in the 'minority' It CAN get to a person, very badly, and it is indeed EVIL to be against someone who is FIGHTING for RIGHT, I saw his videos, pleading for Chaim to be able to go to Israel, and PLEADING even with the Authorities to let him make Aliyah- if this man is WRONG, I dont want to be RIGHT.
COME ON, please- he NEEDS words to ENCOURAGE him, and if he ever does see the strength and mercy, and compasion of G-d, then it is us who showed it to him!! PLEASE! Look at this mans WORK! They are CLEARLY righteous, and VERY Zionist, UNLIKE Wolfowitz who would sell Israel OUT. >:( IslamIsCancer, also now has the Rabbi Kahane's pic on his posting profile.
YOU GO IslamISCancer!!
You keep FIGHTING!!! O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
Firstly, Herzl was not a zionist. He wanted a state un Uganda. Is far as the righteousness is concerned, I too feel that righteousness and g-d fearing are two seperate things.
Let me clarify what I mean by "Gd fearling" and "righteous".
An old woman needs help crossing the street:
1. A righteous person goes and helps her across.
2. A wicked person mugs her and takes her purse.
3. A Gd fearing person will go and help her only because it is the right thing to do, he's afraid Gd will punish him if he doesn't help her, and is also afraid that a mugger will come and take her purse.
But why does #1 go and help? For what reason? He'll say, "It's the right thing to do." But why? Because an old lady is helpless and she needs help and it's the right thing to do. The thing is #2 can justify mugging her by saying, "well, she doesn't need the purse anyway because she will die anyday. I'm doing her a favor because it is the right thing to do."
#3 also helps her because he knows it is the right thing and knows why it is the right thing to do.
#1 can make an excuse to do what #2 would do. Therefore a "righteous" person who doesn't believe in Gd can be as easily inclined to do evil because he doesn't fear a G-d that doesn't exist to him. However, if #1 were truely righteous, he may not really understand why it is a good thing, but deep in his heart without him knowing, he is fearing Gd if he doesn't help her.
God has nothing to do with helping people on the street. Moreover, before going to steal a car some thieves say 'God help me and keep the cops away' so there are evil people regardless of their religious beliefs.
-
We are in WAR together. Schindler was (as a person, VERY unrighteous) What he DID made him a righteous man, and he is on the Avenue of the Righteous in Israel, and because of what he did, there are over 6,000 Jews today.
You and I, have had a disagreement in the past, but I would want YOU covering my back, if G-d forbid, I had a fatwah, etc... You, a traitor? I would stand with you, side by side, if we were in a battle- I would NOT think of you as: "Well I cant fight with HIM, because he is an atheist" THAT is RIDICULOUS. This is what I am always talking about on my audios, The Christian church nowadays, is the only army on the face of the Earth to wound its own, and they take prisoners on the way. Just ask THEM: "WHERE IS THE LOVE" Or, "IS THIS how the savior written of in the N.T. would actually talk to someone?" I, personally have a VERY CLOSE friend that is an atheist, in 1990, I was VERY ill, she was the ONLY one who showed me ANY compassion or empathy, and her righteousnes exceeded ANY persons righteousness of the people around me, most of whom were Jews, AND Christians. These people that you deal with are immature.. I have seen love and respect shown here to you in EXCELLENT form, by Jew and Christian alike. Just stick with people that have stuck with you, and CLEARLY here, they have stuck with you.
I agree with you, those Christians who harass me and call me a traitor ARE DOING NOTHING to stop Islam, at least I'm uploading videos and lecturing people. Those are the turn the other cheek WIMPS who love their enemies. And they call ME a traitor.
There are people that are HAVES (you), and there are people who are HAVE NOTS, the people around you: HAVE NOT.
Christians are suppose to "Love one another"- that means "each-other" in their faith.. I have been reading in this N.T. today, and let me tell you- it does NOT say ANYWHERE to love ANYONE that is threatening to DEVOUR a WHOLE nation. There are although many scriptures making references to (swords, and he did not come to bring peace, but a sword, etc...)
So, without 'missionizing' sometimes you have to USE peoples words to bring THEM into THE REAL TRUTH. I did today with someone who is just like what you describe, and won my argument- VERY effectively.
I just used the WORDS that she 'believes', it SILENCED her after three hours of revealing her HYPOCRICY.
I HATE THAT, and in the words of Patton: SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND MEAN WHAT YOU SAY!!
Also- YES! YOU ARE A GREAT GREAT ZIONIST, not a religious one actually if you want to use the word RIGHTEOUS, it really IS better, however I can see your obvious fight for the sake of Zionism AND Righteousness, and you ARE in MY thoughts, CONSTANTLY. You are a HERO. A CHAMPION.
HERE: From a Portugee Crypto Jew gal:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sTeY7OQdupw These words of this SONG are FOR YOU. YOU KEEP FIGHTING. You will be in HISTORY as a person that fought off a huge Dragon And Beast. O0 ;) O0 & SLAYED the beast CONSTANTLY. Heros and Champions are always known AFTER they are GONE. :'(
Thanks for the great words and comments Paulette.
In your audio program you said you write a lot, THATS TRUE :)
-
We are in WAR together. Schindler was (as a person, VERY unrighteous) What he DID made him a righteous man, and he is on the Avenue of the Righteous in Israel, and because of what he did, there are over 6,000 Jews today.
You and I, have had a disagreement in the past, but I would want YOU covering my back, if G-d forbid, I had a fatwah, etc... You, a traitor? I would stand with you, side by side, if we were in a battle- I would NOT think of you as: "Well I cant fight with HIM, because he is an atheist" THAT is RIDICULOUS. This is what I am always talking about on my audios, The Christian church nowadays, is the only army on the face of the Earth to wound its own, and they take prisoners on the way. Just ask THEM: "WHERE IS THE LOVE" Or, "IS THIS how the savior written of in the N.T. would actually talk to someone?" I, personally have a VERY CLOSE friend that is an atheist, in 1990, I was VERY ill, she was the ONLY one who showed me ANY compassion or empathy, and her righteousnes exceeded ANY persons righteousness of the people around me, most of whom were Jews, AND Christians. These people that you deal with are immature.. I have seen love and respect shown here to you in EXCELLENT form, by Jew and Christian alike. Just stick with people that have stuck with you, and CLEARLY here, they have stuck with you.
I agree with you, those Christians who harass me and call me a traitor ARE DOING NOTHING to stop Islam, at least I'm uploading videos and lecturing people. Those are the turn the other cheek WIMPS who love their enemies. And they call ME a traitor.
There are people that are HAVES (you), and there are people who are HAVE NOTS, the people around you: HAVE NOT.
Christians are suppose to "Love one another"- that means "each-other" in their faith.. I have been reading in this N.T. today, and let me tell you- it does NOT say ANYWHERE to love ANYONE that is threatening to DEVOUR a WHOLE nation. There are although many scriptures making references to (swords, and he did not come to bring peace, but a sword, etc...)
So, without 'missionizing' sometimes you have to USE peoples words to bring THEM into THE REAL TRUTH. I did today with someone who is just like what you describe, and won my argument- VERY effectively.
I just used the WORDS that she 'believes', it SILENCED her after three hours of revealing her HYPOCRICY.
I HATE THAT, and in the words of Patton: SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND MEAN WHAT YOU SAY!!
Also- YES! YOU ARE A GREAT GREAT ZIONIST, not a religious one actually if you want to use the word RIGHTEOUS, it really IS better, however I can see your obvious fight for the sake of Zionism AND Righteousness, and you ARE in MY thoughts, CONSTANTLY. You are a HERO. A CHAMPION.
HERE: From a Portugee Crypto Jew gal:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sTeY7OQdupw These words of this SONG are FOR YOU. YOU KEEP FIGHTING. You will be in HISTORY as a person that fought off a huge Dragon And Beast. O0 ;) O0 & SLAYED the beast CONSTANTLY. Heros and Champions are always known AFTER they are GONE. :'(
Thanks for the great words and comments Paulette.
In your audio program you said you write a lot, THATS TRUE :)
:::D ;D :::D ;D :::D ;D :::D ;D :::D ;D Look- I
am WITH ANYONE that is fighting this atrocious BEAST, NUFF SAID!
:P :-X
-
Dr. Dan,
if one does not do evil things just because he/she is afraid of a higher power then that person is evil.
One should try to be good regardless of any supervision.
-
paulette- nobody here is calling IslamIsCancer a traitor. I don't think he cares, anybody that says it are idiots.
-
paulette- nobody here is calling IslamIsCancer a traitor. I don't think he cares, anybody that says it are idiots.
No... I am NOT saying YOU folks, however, I KNOW for a FACT, that words like these are a DOWNER. I am a natural born Cheerleader, just ask David ben Moshe.
He just NEEDS uplifting in this battle, thats all. And I will encourage all of you younger and older men, to encourage him. NOBODY on this forum is a traitor. We have brave souls on the forum, He is amongst one of the MOST brave.
-
paulette- nobody here is calling IslamIsCancer a traitor. I don't think he cares, anybody that says it are idiots.
No... I am NOT saying YOU folks, however, I KNOW for a FACT, that words like these are a DOWNER. I am a natural born Cheerleader, just ask David ben Moshe.
He just NEEDS uplifting in this battle, thats all. And I will encourage all of you younger and older men, to encourage him. NOBODY on this forum is a traitor. We have brave souls on the forum, He is amongst one of the MOST brave.
I agree with Paulette O0
IslamIsCancer is a great member O0 :)
-
paulette- nobody here is calling IslamIsCancer a traitor. I don't think he cares, anybody that says it are idiots.
It's not people here, it's some other worms on other forums.
They are Orthodox Christians and for them being a Christian
and not fighting muslims is better than being like me and doing what I do.
Those people are imbeciles.
-
paulette- nobody here is calling IslamIsCancer a traitor. I don't think he cares, anybody that says it are idiots.
It's not people here, it's some other worms on other forums.
They are Orthodox Christians and for them being a Christian
and not fighting muslims is better than being like me and doing what I do.
Those people are imbeciles.
Those SCUM
-
Dr. Dan,
if one does not do evil things just because he/she is afraid of a higher power then that person is evil.
One should try to be good regardless of any supervision.
The opposite, if anything he is much much better then the person who isn't inclined to do so to begin with. Judaism does recognize Human nature, and BECAUSE we have an inclination, and on top of that do not follow our base desires because of G-d's will, then that is what truly is said to be righteous. Its like a great Rabbi said - we do not murder because that's what G-d said no to do. Also in a society that does not accept G-d, they then follow what SEEMS right, for example a lady might say, me murder G-d forbid (actual not that, but you get the expression) and then go to an abortion clinic the next day.
Right and wrong is not defined by what we feel is right or wrong, but by what G-d ordered to be the truth. For example sending a mother bird away from the nest might seem cruel, but we do it because G-d said, and also the same with visiting the sick, we do it because it is a Mitzva. Also it is said that One has to have an intention of doing Mitzvot (Kind deeds included) because G-d said to do it, or G-d said dont do it, because one can loose out (a lot) on a "kind deed" because one wasn't doing it for the right reasons.
Also you have to see this- would a person who is kind to all the people around him, gives charity, helps old ladies cross the street, being honest in business, but then goes home beats his wife for no reason, in ungrateful while she cooks him food, takes care of everything he needs, etc. Would that be concidered a righteous individual?
-
"דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה" good manners preceded the Torah.
I think everyone should try his best. I think that if someone believes that there is no G-d and he tries to preach his anti-faith to the believers, then in their eyes he couldn't possibly be righteous. If it just a personal belief than I think that there is not much of a difference between an atheist and a secular Jew.
BTW without G-d there is no absolute morality and therefore no absolute concept of righteousness.
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashe-m of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
I have no logic? Actually...it's logical what i say..it's you who doesn't understand my logic.
Oh for goodness sake!!! MY GOSH! IslamISCancer is being called a TRAITOR. These are tremendous words that can really get to a person when in a fight for RIGHT. IslamIsCancer is a HUGE fan of Chaim ben Pesach & Rabbi Kahane, he NEEDS UPLIFTING. BOTH of you men are smart and VERY LOGICAL.
I know what it is like to be called these words, and being in the 'minority' It CAN get to a person, very badly, and it is indeed EVIL to be against someone who is FIGHTING for RIGHT, I saw his videos, pleading for Chaim to be able to go to Israel, and PLEADING even with the Authorities to let him make Aliyah- if this man is WRONG, I dont want to be RIGHT.
COME ON, please- he NEEDS words to ENCOURAGE him, and if he ever does see the strength and mercy, and compasion of G-d, then it is us who showed it to him!! PLEASE! Look at this mans WORK! They are CLEARLY righteous, and VERY Zionist, UNLIKE Wolfowitz who would sell Israel OUT. >:( IslamIsCancer, also now has the Rabbi Kahane's pic on his posting profile.
YOU GO IslamISCancer!!
You keep FIGHTING!!! O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
Islam is Cancer is definately NOT a traitor!! no no no no..I'm saying that he is righteous and is a Zionist...But he's no athiest even though he says he is..that's all...
-
"דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה" good manners preceded the Torah.
I think everyone should try his best. I think that if someone believes that there is no G-d and he tries to preach his anti-faith to the believers, then in their eyes he couldn't possibly be righteous. If it just a personal belief than I think that there is not much of a difference between an atheist and a secular Jew.
BTW without G-d there is no absolute morality and therefore no absolute concept of righteousness.
there is the innate rule, don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself.
or rather. X hurts, and you know that the other person feels pain, and it hurts, so don't do it to them.
It's possible for man to figure that one out.
(of course, if you are dealing with a bad person, then often being nice is bad, and so the rule might be better put as.. "do to others as they would do to you" (though of course if they are bad, then do worse to them) )
Even bad people know that they're bad.. or not being nice. They are often just doing what they think is in their self-interest.
There was a hilarious scene I saw on tv, from a comedy. Where 2 german soldiers are talking, and one looks very uncomfortable, and says to the other.
soldier 1 "have you noticed the little picture on the side of our caps"
solder 2: "nope"
soldier 1: "the skull"
soldier 2: "oh yeah, that"
soldier 1: "do you think we're the baddies?"
And if you look at a german ww2 hat, you see the skull !!!!!
I won't embed the image, but you can click it and see. Found via google images
http://i1.iofferphoto.com/img/item/477/333/31/o_220GERMAN20SS20GOLD20SILVER20RINGS20191.jpg
-
1. The concept of zionism is a religious one. To call oneself an athiest and be a zionist woudl be an oxymoron. I can understand an agnostic being a zionist..But if someone really was a zionist but claimed to be an athiest i woudl say, no, "he's not an athiest."
so Theodore Herzl (founder of modern zionism) was not a zionist then.
2. Once again someone who i truely righteous but doesn't beleive in Gd is also an oxymoron. One who is truely righteous has a fear of Gd. Therefore, if someone is truely righteous and claims to be an athiest, he really isn't one.
so the oxford dictionary is wrong, and the cambridge dictionary is wrong.
righteous is a word.
3. It's best to be honest with oneself and others. One might think he doesn't believe in Gd, but through soul searching, something will make sense when he realizes some sort of higher power DOES exist.
Well, I hope something makes sense to you. You have no logic whatsoever.
Firstly, Herzl was not a zionist. He wanted a state un Uganda. Is far as the righteousness is concerned, I too feel that righteousness and g-d fearing are two seperate things.
Let me clarify what I mean by "Gd fearling" and "righteous".
An old woman needs help crossing the street:
1. A righteous person goes and helps her across.
2. A wicked person mugs her and takes her purse.
3. A Gd fearing person will go and help her only because it is the right thing to do, he's afraid Gd will punish him if he doesn't help her, and is also afraid that a mugger will come and take her purse.
But why does #1 go and help? For what reason? He'll say, "It's the right thing to do." But why? Because an old lady is helpless and she needs help and it's the right thing to do. The thing is #2 can justify mugging her by saying, "well, she doesn't need the purse anyway because she will die anyday. I'm doing her a favor because it is the right thing to do."
#3 also helps her because he knows it is the right thing and knows why it is the right thing to do.
#1 can make an excuse to do what #2 would do. Therefore a "righteous" person who doesn't believe in Gd can be as easily inclined to do evil because he doesn't fear a G-d that doesn't exist to him. However, if #1 were truely righteous, he may not really understand why it is a good thing, but deep in his heart without him knowing, he is fearing Gd if he doesn't help her.
G-d has nothing to do with helping people on the street. Moreover, before going to steal a car some thieves say 'G-d help me and keep the cops away' so there are evil people regardless of their religious beliefs.
Good point..but those evil people don't know Gd..therefore they are only religion to wickedness.
Islam is Cancer, I believe you are not an athiest, but more so an agnostic. Someone he doesn't believe in religion or a specific theology. But I believe that deep inside, you know it or not, that you believe there is some sort of Higher Being out there.
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
-
Dr. Dan,
if one does not do evil things just because he/she is afraid of a higher power then that person is evil.
One should try to be good regardless of any supervision.
I agree with that 100%. We should do righteous deeds because it is the right thing to do and the best thing to do. But most people who really understand that have a fear in Gd...Some religious righteous people have a huuuuuge known fear of Gd, while agnostics have a fear, but don't realize it. Same goes with less religious people...Less religious people don't freak out over ever little technicality like some do on this forum. But to each their own.
My posts for not believing in a religion are not meant to attack you. I honor and commend your work and bravery and in joining us, Islam is cancer. I do believe you are a good person. I might disagree wtih a few theological points with you, but still, it's just theology. The problems in this world is that peoples of differing theologies or ideas or opinions or politics cannot get along despite their disagreements...rather than simply agreeing to disagree.
As far as your "atheism". To me, in my opinion, I wouldn't consider you a real atheist. An agnostic maybe, but that's it.
It's not for me to tell you how you should believe in a higher being...you'll figure it out..and i know you'll come up with a conculsion that somethign much bigger than all of us exists some how.
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But religion doesn't have to be included into GD necessarily, in my opinion.
(The above is an edit)
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But Gd doesn't have to be included into religion necessarily, in my opinion.
??? If you mean that being a Noahide, as not being a religion, or that "Judaism is not a religion, but a way of life" then I agree, if not then one can G-d forbid loose out on his Mitzvot and be left with nothing, because then G-d will show him that he wasn't doing it for G-d, but because of many other things- for example feelings, conscious, to impress others, etc.
What is also connected to this discussion is that G-d tested the Avot specifically with a trait that is not associated with them. For example Avraham was a man of Hessed (kindness), even though he did Kindness all of his life, G-d told him to kill his son, even though everyone would agree that that act looks like cruelty and not kindness. When did Avraham merit, and prove that his Kindness was the right Kindness because that's what G-d wants and not his feelings (and also earn the title), when he was ready to sacrifice his son and do something cruel, because thats what G-d wanted at that time and place.
Same thing with Yakov who has the reputation of being honest. G-d tells him to say that he is Esav, and it is a lie, but he still does it because that's what has to be done, and its G-d's order and not only human logic.
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But Gd doesn't have to be included into religion necessarily, in my opinion.
I define righteousness the same as a dictionary. It's an english word. You look it up in a dictionary.
Yes, it sounds a bit like the word religious.. And it conjures up a picture of a pious man or woman for me(pious does mean religious). There may be some psycological reason for that, maybe my early encoutners with the word were examples of religious people. But it's irrelevant. The dictionary defines it..
I don't know what this nonsense you say that G-d doesn't have to be included into religion. What you mean by "religion". This idea of some generic word "religion" is usually some left wing nonsense about religion being a personal thing.. a thing of peace, blah blah blah.
G-d exists in judaism, that's for sure. We don't define our own religion and call it judaism.. Now I really can't continue a discussion about "religion" with you, i'll get a twitch in the neck. You are too left wing.. too illogical. It won't get anywhere. I can talk about a dictionary though. You don't have as much leeway there to wind me up and deny reality.
-
I am going to say this. It is usually rare for an atheist (agnostic) to be pro-christian and pro-jew. I think it is a shame that this JTFer does not believe in GOD, but if we are going to become a mass movement against radical Islam, we need to start accepting atheists (agnostics) and non believers. You are indeed considered to be righteous.
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But Gd doesn't have to be included into religion necessarily, in my opinion.
??? If you mean that being a Noahide, as not being a religion, or that "Judaism is not a religion, but a way of life" then I agree, if not then one can G-d forbid loose out on his Mitzvot and be left with nothing, because then G-d will show him that he wasn't doing it for G-d, but because of many other things- for example feelings, conscious, to impress others, etc.
What is also connected to this discussion is that G-d tested the Avot specifically with a trait that is not associated with them. For example Avraham was a man of Hessed (kindness), even though he did Kindness all of his life, G-d told him to kill his son, even though everyone would agree that that act looks like cruelty and not kindness. When did Avraham merit, and prove that his Kindness was the right Kindness because that's what G-d wants and not his feelings (and also earn the title), when he was ready to sacrifice his son and do something cruel, because thats what G-d wanted at that time and place.
Same thing with Yakov who has the reputation of being honest. G-d tells him to say that he is Esav, and it is a lie, but he still does it because that's what has to be done, and its G-d's order and not only human logic.
I agree wtih you Tzvi...Sometimes being part of a righteous organized religion will help people be more of a community and fmaily with one another and also help them have a set of theological rules to follow. One can say that it's not enough to just believe in Gd, but to also do acts of loving kindness etc. I do not deny that. But Tzvi, one needs to start from somewhere. The first commandment it is written, "I am the Lord your Gd who has taken you out of the land of Egypt......." Why would that be the very first commandment? To start out saying what's first is first..."I am Gd and there is only One of Me. If you get that, then you'll be able to understand the rest once it sinks in."
In Islam is Cancer's case, in my opinion, it starts with realizing Gd exists..and then the rest will follow...
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But Gd doesn't have to be included into religion necessarily, in my opinion.
I define righteousness the same as a dictionary. It's an english word. You look it up in a dictionary.
Yes, it sounds a bit like the word religious.. And it conjures up a picture of a pious man or woman for me(pious does mean religious). There may be some psycological reason for that, maybe my early encoutners with the word were examples of religious people. But it's irrelevant. The dictionary defines it..
I don't know what this nonsense you say that G-d doesn't have to be included into religion. What you mean by "religion". This idea of some generic word "religion" is usually some left wing nonsense about religion being a personal thing.. a thing of peace, blah blah blah.
G-d exists in judaism, that's for sure. We don't define our own religion and call it judaism.. Now I really can't continue a discussion about "religion" with you, i'll get a twitch in the neck. You are too left wing.. too illogical. It won't get anywhere. I can talk about a dictionary though. You don't have as much leeway there to wind me up and deny reality.
You misunderstood me! I was saying that one can walk around and believe in Gd and not believe in a specific religion. I WASN'T saying that one can follow a religion and NOT believe in Gd at the same time..that makes NO SENSE!
And I'm not saying that's the right way to just believe in Gd and not be part of a righteous religion. I'm saying it's a start for someone who has nothing and isn't ready to take and accept everything all at once from a specific religion. THAT might be a left wing and liberal concept..but to me, there nothing inhumane about this type of liberalism and left wingism. It's left wing on this forum. However, it's right wing to the current left wing socialism/communism in our government and society.
Now, some people do not like the "in your face you have to do like me" missionary mentality. However, some people need that type of reality check..but it's not for everyone to get punched in the face like that. You and Tzvi are at a different level than me. I am someone who is much less observant than the both of you. So it's easy for you to simply tell people in their faces what they should do and not do. I take the road that for some they need people like you. And for others a more gentle touch. If that's left wing, then I'M PROUD TO BE LEFT WING!!!!
But most normal people here on this forum will know that I'm right wing relative to society and perhaps left leaning relative to many of you who post on this forum and in this movement. My intention is not to convince them they are wrong or that I'm right. My intention is to share my ideals..and perhaps some here, who are more right wing than me, will be able to put a more human face for their beliefs! Maybe even be better at separating real evil from the innocent and misguided who are amongst them.
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But Gd doesn't have to be included into religion necessarily, in my opinion.
??? If you mean that being a Noahide, as not being a religion, or that "Judaism is not a religion, but a way of life" then I agree, if not then one can G-d forbid loose out on his Mitzvot and be left with nothing, because then G-d will show him that he wasn't doing it for G-d, but because of many other things- for example feelings, conscious, to impress others, etc.
What is also connected to this discussion is that G-d tested the Avot specifically with a trait that is not associated with them. For example Avraham was a man of Hessed (kindness), even though he did Kindness all of his life, G-d told him to kill his son, even though everyone would agree that that act looks like cruelty and not kindness. When did Avraham merit, and prove that his Kindness was the right Kindness because that's what G-d wants and not his feelings (and also earn the title), when he was ready to sacrifice his son and do something cruel, because thats what G-d wanted at that time and place.
Same thing with Yakov who has the reputation of being honest. G-d tells him to say that he is Esav, and it is a lie, but he still does it because that's what has to be done, and its G-d's order and not only human logic.
btw, very good Dvar Torah.
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But Gd doesn't have to be included into religion necessarily, in my opinion.
??? If you mean that being a Noahide, as not being a religion, or that "Judaism is not a religion, but a way of life" then I agree, if not then one can G-d forbid loose out on his Mitzvot and be left with nothing, because then G-d will show him that he wasn't doing it for G-d, but because of many other things- for example feelings, conscious, to impress others, etc.
What is also connected to this discussion is that G-d tested the Avot specifically with a trait that is not associated with them. For example Avraham was a man of Hessed (kindness), even though he did Kindness all of his life, G-d told him to kill his son, even though everyone would agree that that act looks like cruelty and not kindness. When did Avraham merit, and prove that his Kindness was the right Kindness because that's what G-d wants and not his feelings (and also earn the title), when he was ready to sacrifice his son and do something cruel, because thats what G-d wanted at that time and place.
Same thing with Yakov who has the reputation of being honest. G-d tells him to say that he is Esav, and it is a lie, but he still does it because that's what has to be done, and its G-d's order and not only human logic.
I agree wtih you Tzvi...Sometimes being part of a righteous organized religion will help people be more of a community and fmaily with one another and also help them have a set of theological rules to follow. One can say that it's not enough to just believe in Gd, but to also do acts of loving kindness etc. I do not deny that. But Tzvi, one needs to start from somewhere. The first commandment it is written, "I am the Lord your Gd who has taken you out of the land of Egypt......." Why would that be the very first commandment? To start out saying what's first is first..."I am Gd and there is only One of Me. If you get that, then you'll be able to understand the rest once it sinks in."
In Islam is Cancer's case, in my opinion, it starts with realizing Gd exists..and then the rest will follow...
??? , im sorry but I am getting confused, or you dont understand me. I never said to anyone, nor have I suggested that islamiscancer or anyone join a set religion, infact what you wrote kinda is what I was saying. (In fact if you want to know the truth from the Jewish perspective, it is probably best that gentiles do not- and following the 7 laws of Noah is not really a religion, its just following the 7 laws).
You are just proving my point that one needs to believe in G-d, I don't see how we are arguing? Unless you thought that I was implying that a non-Jew has to join a religious group, of which I would never encourage. Or unless you are referring about Jews having to have to keep Mitzvot like Shabb-t , etc.
-
Dr. Dan
"The first commandment it is written, "I am the Lord your Gd who has taken you out of the land of Egypt......." Why would that be the very first commandment? To start out saying what's first is first..."I am Gd and there is only One of Me. If you get that, then you'll be able to understand the rest once it sinks in."
You do realize that you are proving my point with that statement? Although I kinda disagree with the last part, because we don't really understand everything and were lucky if we even understand a little (in comparison of what could).
You are proving it because it is the foundation and main reason of why we do a "good" thing.
-
Dr. Dan
"The first commandment it is written, "I am the Lord your Gd who has taken you out of the land of Egypt......." Why would that be the very first commandment? To start out saying what's first is first..."I am Gd and there is only One of Me. If you get that, then you'll be able to understand the rest once it sinks in."
You do realize that you are proving my point with that statement? Although I kinda disagree with the last part, because we don't really understand everything and were lucky if we even understand a little (in comparison of what could).
You are proving it because it is the foundation and main reason of why we do a "good" thing.
yes! I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was agreeing with you. read my above post to q_q_
-
But whatever, just becuase one believes in this or that, does not automatically make one wicked, but I (and also Rabbi's, and Hashem of-course) wont call someone "rightious" - or Tzaddik in Hebrew, because it also is a form of flattery, which is very bad and also it in a way legitimizes people who might not be doin gthe right thing right now (but one not being righteous doesn't automatically mean that we should curse them, or that we have a right to automatically call one wicked.
But by the real standards their are really very few people who are technically Tzaddikim. But also their are levels. For example Jews in comparison to other nations are considered righteous. But I guess their are levels, soo we all are just seeing a different picture from different perspectives.
Righteous is a mistranslation of tzaddik then.
Righteous just means moral. Nothing to do with G-d
As I showed in another thread from those 2 dictionaries. oxford, and cambridge. oxford being the big authority.
maybe translate it as "man of G-d" , or maybe, maybe, "religiously righteous".
The baba sali was described as a man of G-d, a tzaddik would prob mean the same thing. He was a tzaddik.
that's where i disagree..I belive that true righteousness inately has something do with Gd. But Gd doesn't have to be included into religion necessarily, in my opinion.
??? If you mean that being a Noahide, as not being a religion, or that "Judaism is not a religion, but a way of life" then I agree, if not then one can G-d forbid loose out on his Mitzvot and be left with nothing, because then G-d will show him that he wasn't doing it for G-d, but because of many other things- for example feelings, conscious, to impress others, etc.
What is also connected to this discussion is that G-d tested the Avot specifically with a trait that is not associated with them. For example Avraham was a man of Hessed (kindness), even though he did Kindness all of his life, G-d told him to kill his son, even though everyone would agree that that act looks like cruelty and not kindness. When did Avraham merit, and prove that his Kindness was the right Kindness because that's what G-d wants and not his feelings (and also earn the title), when he was ready to sacrifice his son and do something cruel, because thats what G-d wanted at that time and place.
Same thing with Yakov who has the reputation of being honest. G-d tells him to say that he is Esav, and it is a lie, but he still does it because that's what has to be done, and its G-d's order and not only human logic.
I agree wtih you Tzvi...Sometimes being part of a righteous organized religion will help people be more of a community and fmaily with one another and also help them have a set of theological rules to follow. One can say that it's not enough to just believe in Gd, but to also do acts of loving kindness etc. I do not deny that. But Tzvi, one needs to start from somewhere. The first commandment it is written, "I am the Lord your Gd who has taken you out of the land of Egypt......." Why would that be the very first commandment? To start out saying what's first is first..."I am Gd and there is only One of Me. If you get that, then you'll be able to understand the rest once it sinks in."
In Islam is Cancer's case, in my opinion, it starts with realizing Gd exists..and then the rest will follow...
??? , im sorry but I am getting confused, or you dont understand me. I never said to anyone, nor have I suggested that islamiscancer or anyone join a set religion, infact what you wrote kinda is what I was saying. (In fact if you want to know the truth from the Jewish perspective, it is probably best that gentiles do not- and following the 7 laws of Noah is not really a religion, its just following the 7 laws).
You are just proving my point that one needs to believe in G-d, I don't see how we are arguing? Unless you thought that I was implying that a non-Jew has to join a religious group, of which I would never encourage. Or unless you are referring about Jews having to have to keep Mitzvot like Shabbat , etc.
Tzvi, we are agreeing with each other...
With Islam is Cancer..in my opinion, since no religion is in his heart and he thinks that Gd doesn't exist, he wants to do what is right. I am saying that the reason why he wants to do is right is because he knows Gd does exist, but doesn't want to admit to it..or simply doesn't realize it that he knows that Gd exists.
From that, I said that all one needs to start, if they have nothing else, to know and realize Gd exists. Someone doesn't need to join a religion also. If they believe in Gd, then it's a start..the rest follows.
Now, it is good to join a righteous religion. From a Jewish point of view, Jews shoudl join Judaism. Non Jews shoudl join Noahidism..but that's a Jewish theological way of looking at religion. Being part of a righteous religion has many more beneifts than just walking around and believing in Gd and trying to do the right thing on a personal level. And from a Jewish persepective that righteous religion woudl be Judaism for a Jew and Noahidism for a non-Jew.
And we agree on that, Tzvi.
But with Islam is Cancer, it's too much to go in his face and say, "Become a Noahide, or else!" Rather, in my opinion, I would rather say (and mean it when i say), "I like you, Islam is Cancer. I love what you do here. You are great person and a great friend. I think you are wrong in believing that Gd doesn't exist. However, since it is a very emotional topic for you, I will leave it at that. When you want to talk about it with me (us) one day, I woudl love to have a deep conversation with you about what's in our hearts and in yours."
btw..none of this is Lashon Hara...this post is for you too, Islam is Cancer.
-
For the record their is no such thing as "Noahidism" , it is not a religious thing or organization. And I am not necessarily preaching to IslamisC or anyone else right now, but I will say this maybe you will understand better- When my kids will be growing up and different people pass the street and they will ask me who is righteous or who is a good person, I will not point at an atheist, or point at a Jew who breaks Shabb-t for example. But that doesn't mean that I cant be friends with people like that (although it is also in a way disputed by Rav Mizrachi- when he says why from kids who's parent was a murderer parents keep away, but another's who's parents are Mihalel Shabb-t are welcomed easily, but thats another long discussion).
I will tell my children you see that great Rabbi who tells people that they have to keep G-d's laws, and he spends a lot of time lecturing many people in believing in G-d, following His Mitzvot, etc. OR you see that guy sitting in the corner saying Tehillim.
-
For the record their is no such thing as "Noahidism" , it is not a religious thing or organization. And I am not necessarily preaching to IslamisC or anyone else right now, but I will say this maybe you will understand better- When my kids will be growing up and different people pass the street and they will ask me who is righteous or who is a good person, I will not point at an atheist, or point at a Jew who breaks Shabbat for example. But that doesn't mean that I cant be friends with people like that (although it is also in a way disputed by Rav Mizrachi- when he says why from kids who's parent was a murderer parents keep away, but another's who's parents are Mihalel Shabbat are welcomed easily, but thats another long discussion).
I will tell my children you see that great Rabbi who tells people that they have to keep G-d's laws, and he spends a lot of time lecturing many people in believing in G-d, following His Mitzvot, etc. OR you see that guy sitting in the corner saying Tehillim.
ok that sounds noble...i would, however, approach differently with my own children. But with things you point out as very righteous i might put more emphasis that it is really awesome what they do...Like shooting for an A+ with extra credit instead of a B+ on an exam.
-
Dr. Dan I have a very good Shiur for you, where you will definitely understand and see things much better (he will explain it to you much better then me, although I see you understand me).
http://www.kolyakov.org/Rabbi/Ilan_Meirov/ - This is Rabbi Ilan Meirov, he's a very good guy, a great Torah scholar (He used to be my Havruta, and I do believe that I did influence him in some of the Halachot brought by Rav Kahane ZTL, in the discussions we had :D - dealing with the arab problem, etc.) Truly a righteous Tzaddik who does a lot of work in public and especially behind the scenes (I know of a few great things he does, but his brothers told me to not tell people because he just doesn't want the attention).
listen to "Commandments or Suggestions" - its very good, and its short (like 1/2 an hour).