JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shamgar on July 14, 2008, 01:47:04 PM
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Now please, I am not trying to recruit or proselytise to anyone. I have a full time job just keeping myself and my children righteous; So please don't ban me I love this forum way too much.
But, in regards to the idol worship comments, I think many Christians view God as a Triune God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One God with three personas. Jesus was not a unique detached individual/being but a manifestation of God.
An analogy that helps me explain would be computers. God is the operating system. Very complex and powerful and completely beyond the comprehension of 99.9% of us. Jesus is the desktop. Our main interface, puts things in perspective and helps us understand what the operating system can do and teach us.
I guess that would make the Holy Ghost like a wireless network, it can reach out everywhere.
I am certainly no scholar so forgive my inelegant attempt to explain my belief.
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I am glad, that you brought this issue up.
We have to clarify, that we have here two religions.
Judaism and Christianity.
The vast majority of Jewish theologians believe, that Christianity is idol worship. Because among other passages in the "New Testament" of the clear statement of the Gospel according to John. Because of this it is for practizing Christians in their oppinion in fact impossible to enter the world to come.
The vast majority of Christian theologians believe, that it is for Jews in fact impossible to enter the world to come, because in their oppinion is nobody able to keep the laws given at mount Sinai. So they have to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to get salvation.
There is no possibility to "melt" this two Religions together. The theological systems are totally different.
We have to accept this fact and we have to respect the others, like they are. We should not try to convince each other in this points. Every discussion will escalate and hurt us in the end.
In this way we can work together.
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Now please, I am not trying to recruit or proselytise to anyone. I have a full time job just keeping myself and my children righteous; So please don't ban me I love this forum way too much.
But, in regards to the idol worship comments, I think many Christians view G-d as a Triune G-d. G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Spirit. One G-d with three personas. Jesus was not a unique detached individual/being but a manifestation of G-d.
An analogy that helps me explain would be computers. G-d is the operating system. Very complex and powerful and completely beyond the comprehension of 99.9% of us. Jesus is the desktop. Our main interface, puts things in perspective and helps us understand what the operating system can do and teach us.
I guess that would make the Holy Ghost like a wireless network, it can reach out everywhere.
I am certainly no scholar so forgive my inelegant attempt to explain my belief.
Your post to elaborate on christian theology.
And bash christians here by calling them idol worshippers.
It is not JTF policy. We work together here.
Certainly, we each have disagreements, but we are not here at JTF to argue theology with each other. We are here to work together for a common cause.
Your post calling christians idol worshippers is inappropriate.
And bad for the movement.
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Now please, I am not trying to recruit or proselytise to anyone. I have a full time job just keeping myself and my children righteous; So please don't ban me I love this forum way too much.
But, in regards to the idol worship comments, I think many Christians view G-d as a Triune G-d. G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Spirit. One G-d with three personas. Jesus was not a unique detached individual/being but a manifestation of G-d.
An analogy that helps me explain would be computers. G-d is the operating system. Very complex and powerful and completely beyond the comprehension of 99.9% of us. Jesus is the desktop. Our main interface, puts things in perspective and helps us understand what the operating system can do and teach us.
I guess that would make the Holy Ghost like a wireless network, it can reach out everywhere.
I am certainly no scholar so forgive my inelegant attempt to explain my belief.
Your post to elaborate on christian theology.
And bash christians here by calling them idol worshippers.
It is not JTF policy. We work together here.
Certainly, we each have disagreements, but we are not here at JTF to argue theology with each other. We are here to work together for a common cause.
Your post calling christians idol worshippers is inappropriate.
And bad for the movement.
I don't understand your response??? I am a Christian and these are my own beliefs. I am not bashing anyone, Jew or Christian.
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I am glad, that you brought this issue up.
We have to clarify, that we have here two religions.
Judaism and Christianity.
The vast majority of Jewish theologians believe, that Christianity is idol worship. Because among other passages in the "New Testament" of the clear statement of the Gospel according to John. Because of this it is for practizing Christians in their oppinion in fact impossible to enter the world to come.
The vast majority of Christian theologians believe, that it is for Jews in fact impossible to enter the world to come, because in their oppinion is nobody able to keep the laws given at mount Sinai. So they have to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to get salvation.
There is no possibility to "melt" this two Religions together. The theological systems are totally different.
We have to accept this fact and we have to respect the others, like they are. We should not try to convince each other in this points. Every discussion will escalate and hurt us in the end.
In this way we can work together.
THe best that can happen is that, especially scholars from both groups, if they wish to have an understanding with each other..and honest respectful discussions.
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shamgar, sorry for jumping to that conclusion
But your subject/title is very misleading , it suggests that christians are idol worshippers.
This is not what you wanted to suggest.
I suggest editting it.
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I think that the trinity belief in Christianity is not considered idol worshiping just for itself. It is a violation of the concept of a single unique God in Judaism (it is not pure monotheism according to Judaism). I think the what might be seen as idol worshiping is praying to portraits and statues of Jesus, marry and the saints.
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I think that the trinity belief in Christianity is not considered idol worshiping just for itself.
Depends on who you ask. If you ask one who believes in it they would say no it is not, if you ask someone who doesn't follow that religion they would say otherwise.
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q_q, Shamgar was trying to defend his religion against being labeled idolatrous by another member in a thread I locked a little while ago. Take another look at his post.
So to sum things up, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to how montheism is defined. Again, we need to focus on areas where we're in agreement, rather than what we disagree on.
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Strictly for the record, the true definition of the Trinity is that a single, undivided G-d, with one nature, has three eternal and uncreated aspects or persons that are always manifested simultaneously. The best and most accurate analogy for the Trinity is that of the human mind. All at once, a person possesses rational (pragmatic), emotional (feelings or passion-driven), and philosophical (intellectual) faculties. Nobody would say that we are all schizophrenic because we possess all three sides at once.
The divine Trinity is far more united and indivisible than that, though, because the three Persons in it never have any disagreements or conflicts in purpose (unlike the tensions and divisions that are constantly in our own minds).
I fully respect/accept, of course, that most forum members will never believe in the Trinity, but I just felt that it was germane, and an opportune time, to explain just exactly what it is for the public record.
Chaimfan
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Thanks CF. Much more elegant than my feeble attempt. Just as a side note. As a Baptist I don't worship pictures, crucifixes, Mary or Saints. Respect for all. No worship. Only worship God.
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I apologize, I should not have brought this topic up. I am not offended by people who think Christians are idol worshippers, but I know some people are. The priority should, however, be to work together despite any theological differences. Jews and Christians (and others) are friends here, working together for common goals.
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How can Jews and Christians defend one another if they do not understand one another? I find the Christian viewpoint interesting even if it's incompatible with my beliefs.
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JTFers have to act like family. Because we are family.
Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.
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Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.
I think he meant it in the sense that we're all human beings with similar hopes, fears, goals, etc.
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Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.
I think he meant it in the sense that we're all human beings with similar hopes, fears, goals, etc.
It still is a false impression. This is actualy something talked about in this weeks parsha.
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Incompatibility of faith shouldn't be a detriment to non-religious cooperation. I am against attempts to create artificial unification of religions. There are many such attempts that are supposed to bring together the Abrahamic religions, including Islam.
I have no problem to cooperate with Buddhists who might be idol worshipers but are pacifists. There is no way I can reach understanding with Islam even if they have a more similar concept of God.
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There is no possibility to "melt" this two Religions together. The theological systems are totally different.
We have to accept this fact and we have to respect the others, like they are. We should not try to convince each other in this points. Every discussion will escalate and hurt us in the end.
In this way we can work together.
True Pheasant, we have to respect other people's religious choices and work together regardless of differences.
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Allies! I like that.
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Trinity is really something that is not easy to understand, even Christians have a hard time I guess.
Someone once said it is like a point in the three dimensional space. It has got three dimensions but still is one single point.
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I think the main problem in this discussion is that most Christians and Jews here talk at cross-purposes.
To put it in a nutshell:
We have to agree on the fact that we are different.
Perhaps we can cover the distance with a "floor" for a short time.
But this floor will disrupt over the theological differences.
So Tzvi is right on the brother issue. Allies on common goals is the right expression.
We have to face "theological reality" and not what our wishes may be. :)
So we can work in respect of each other together.
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Thanks CF. Much more elegant than my feeble attempt. Just as a side note. As a Baptist I don't worship pictures, crucifixes, Mary or Saints. Respect for all. No worship. Only worship G-d.
I'm not a Catholic either, but I don't think these comments were necessary.
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Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.
Sorry Tanach disagrees with you, dude. The whole purpose of Judaism is to be a light and example to all of the nations.
Not that it matters. It's not like I regard your opinions any more highly than Barack Hussein Obama's anyway.
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Thanks CF. Much more elegant than my feeble attempt. Just as a side note. As a Baptist I don't worship pictures, crucifixes, Mary or Saints. Respect for all. No worship. Only worship G-d.
I'm not a Catholic either, but I don't think these comments were necessary.
C.F. You are right this is not necessary and Shamgar you can't also tell Catholics how they should worship their faith.
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Incompatibility of faith shouldn't be a detriment to non-religious cooperation. I am against attempts to create artificial unification of religions. There are many such attempts that are supposed to bring together the Abrahamic religions, including Islam.
I have no problem to cooperate with Buddhists who might be idol worshipers but are pacifists. There is no way I can reach understanding with Islam even if they have a more similar concept of G-d.
I know that I am getting very nitpicky and technical, but I do not think Buddhists actually worship their icons. Buddhism is not a polytheism. Depending on the variety (Therevada, Mahayana, or Zen), Buddhism is either somewhat pantheistic, monotheistic, or even atheistic.
As a Christian, I do not think Buddhism is a true religion (I would call it very lovely human philosophy, but nothing more), but let's not mischaracterize them either.
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Thanks CF. Much more elegant than my feeble attempt. Just as a side note. As a Baptist I don't worship pictures, crucifixes, Mary or Saints. Respect for all. No worship. Only worship G-d.
I'm not a Catholic either, but I don't think these comments were necessary.
C.F. You are right this is not necessary and Shamgar you can't also tell Catholics how they should worship their faith.
Sorry if it sounded like I was telling someone else how to worship. I meant to only state my practice. Cheers!!
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Okay
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To be clear, it IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN for a Jew to believe any other kind of god or any religion other than Torah Judaism. Which we do have a number of ways of going about.
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I agree with Pheasant 100% this is a movement about respecting and accepting differences in belief in uniting with one another toward common goals of righteousness.
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If we argue over our theological differences, we can never work together. We have very real differences here. Does that mean that we cannot work together? Does that mean we cannot respect each other and care about each other as fellow human beings? In JTF, we do work together, we do respect each other, and we do care about each other despite being brought up in all types of different religions.
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Amen
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Sorry, but Jews should not and cannot refer to other nations as "family". This is not an insult to anyone else, but we are not family, nor are we brothers. You wanna call allies, okay, people working together for a common goal, okay, but never should Jews get the impresion of family, and brothers.
Sorry Tanach disagrees with you, dude. The whole purpose of Judaism is to be a light and example to all of the nations.
Not that it matters. It's not like I regard your opinions any more highly than Barack Hussein Obama's anyway.
No Tannach clearly states for their to be Havdalah. In fact this week's parsha is what the theme is all about, how Jews should not get to close to other nations, and the bitter consequences of that. And light unto nations is not an argument, no one is talking about light unto nations, infact Rabbi Kahane and Hazal taught the exact opposite, only through Havdalah will we be a light unto the nations (he wrote a whole chapter in Ore Harayon on Havdalah).
Even noahides we do not call our brothers, their is a different level in Ger Toshav, but that is another discussion. And just because someone is not our brother it does not mean that they should necessarily be disrespected, or whatever, BUT no Jew should fall into the trapp of being too close to other nations and getting this false impression of "One World One unity".
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infact Rabbi Kahane and Hazal taught the exact opposite
Citations please. We need a better source than what your hero Guzzy says at his puppy mill.
BUT no Jew should fall into the trapp of being too close to other nations and getting this false impression of "One World One unity".
Chaim, here you see it for your own eyes. He is likening JTF to New World Order globalism. Please ban this individual.
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jews are a family.
but just as a person can care for people outside his family, so too jews can care about gentiles, particularly and very obviously, righteous gentiles.
So this is not something CF should get upset about.
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infact Rabbi Kahane and Hazal taught the exact opposite
Citations please. We need a better source than what your hero Guzzy says at his puppy mill.
BUT no Jew should fall into the trapp of being too close to other nations and getting this false impression of "One World One unity".
Chaim, here you see it for your own eyes. He is likening JTF to New World Order globalism. Please ban this individual.
I don't think that's what he meant. It is an important concept to remain separated from the nations to a degree, Chaim also talks about this in his latest English video. I think Tzvi is arguing over technicality, as to what word is appropriate and what word isn't, but the bottom line is we are allies in this movement towards common goals. So if he doesn't want us to use the word "brother" ok I understand that. The Jews ARE a separate nation. We all know that. But that doesn't change anything about what we're doing here. Yes, the Jews are not to DEPEND on the other nations, or look at them as a crutch etc, but we are not forbidden to work together towards righteous goals.
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infact Rabbi Kahane and Hazal taught the exact opposite
Citations please. We need a better source than what your hero Guzzy says at his puppy mill.
BUT no Jew should fall into the trapp of being too close to other nations and getting this false impression of "One World One unity".
Chaim, here you see it for your own eyes. He is likening JTF to New World Order globalism. Please ban this individual.
Shut up, I didn't say that, I was referring to what you were saying how everyone is everyone els's brother, etc (something that is NWO type thinking, and is agains't the Tannach and Rav Kahane who is agains't assimilation and for Havdalah.
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infact Rabbi Kahane and Hazal taught the exact opposite
Citations please.
" Or Harayon" "The Jewish Idea"
The WHOLE Chapter named Havdalah" -Seperation. Also found and mixed in other chapters, for example why Jews should live in Israel and that the land is a place of Havdalah.
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there is a classic comment from a modern day rabbi, that all jews should pay attention to.
If We(jews) do not make havdalah(separation), then the goyim will do it for us.
It is so true..
We know what that means.
We saw that during the time of the holocaust, which occurred once jews had become very very assimilated.
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I liked Pheasant answer the most! I am not offended by any Christian beliefs. Heck, I wasn't even offended by Ann Coulter interview with Donny Deutch. But I don't think that the nature of this forum is appropriate for this type of discussions. If you are interested in a Jewish point of view, there is an Outreach Judaism series of lectures http://outreachjudaism.org/?clientid=1305 .
It makes no difference to me what your religion is or whether you believe at all - we are here to unite against a common enemy and we should have love for one another.
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The only context of jews dealing with christianity itself, is for anti missionary purposes only.
Purely for that.
Manch, I have no idea why you advertise an anti missionary site in a thread about christianity. Jewish anti missionary sites are for jews, not christians .
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Sorry that I started this thread. Know better now.
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I think we'll all have to agree to disagree when it comes theology. So don't make me lock this thread.
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Agreed.
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Incompatibility of faith shouldn't be a detriment to non-religious cooperation. I am against attempts to create artificial unification of religions. There are many such attempts that are supposed to bring together the Abrahamic religions, including Islam.
I have no problem to cooperate with Buddhists who might be idol worshipers but are pacifists. There is no way I can reach understanding with Islam even if they have a more similar concept of G-d.
I know that I am getting very nitpicky and technical, but I do not think Buddhists actually worship their icons. Buddhism is not a polytheism. Depending on the variety (Therevada, Mahayana, or Zen), Buddhism is either somewhat pantheistic, monotheistic, or even atheistic.
As a Christian, I do not think Buddhism is a true religion (I would call it very lovely human philosophy, but nothing more), but let's not mischaracterize them either.
Buddhists sometimes make offerings to their icons. I read a story about one kosher restaurant losing its certification because a buddhist working in the kitchen was splashing alcohol as an offering to a buddha. Also some of them pat Buddha's belly for luck.
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The only context of jews dealing with christianity itself, is for anti missionary purposes only.
Purely for that.
Manch, I have no idea why you advertise an anti missionary site in a thread about christianity. Jewish anti missionary sites are for jews, not christians .
I did not advertise the anti-missionary website, I simply provided a relevant to the thread link that both Christian and Jews, who are interested in this subject, can explore so that they can take this discussion elsewhere. I've listened to the lectures and I know that a great deal, sometimes majority, of the audience are Christian who are interested in the subject. I don't think it was inappropriate, however, if admins disagree, I would support removing my reply from the thread.
Regards,
Manch
PS Please capitalize Christian, Jews, Christianity, Judaism - this is an accepted form.
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jews are a family.
but just as a person can care for people outside his family, so too jews can care about gentiles, particularly and very obviously, righteous gentiles.
So this is not something CF should get upset about.
I'm not a family member to evil leftists Jews many of them hate Israel,i feel closer to my Christian friends who have morals and love Israel ,where as the leftist Jews are not my family. BTW leftist Jews worship idols all the leading leftists they look upon like their G-DS
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Incompatibility of faith shouldn't be a detriment to non-religious cooperation. I am against attempts to create artificial unification of religions. There are many such attempts that are supposed to bring together the Abrahamic religions, including Islam.
I have no problem to cooperate with Buddhists who might be idol worshipers but are pacifists. There is no way I can reach understanding with Islam even if they have a more similar concept of G-d.
I know that I am getting very nitpicky and technical, but I do not think Buddhists actually worship their icons. Buddhism is not a polytheism. Depending on the variety (Therevada, Mahayana, or Zen), Buddhism is either somewhat pantheistic, monotheistic, or even atheistic.
As a Christian, I do not think Buddhism is a true religion (I would call it very lovely human philosophy, but nothing more), but let's not mischaracterize them either.
Buddhists sometimes make offerings to their icons. I read a story about one kosher restaurant losing its certification because a buddhist working in the kitchen was splashing alcohol as an offering to a buddha. Also some of them pat Buddha's belly for luck.
That's what i meant also. I don't know what Buddhism has to say about it, but in reality the Buddhists worship Buddha as a god, and sometimes also their Gurus or Lamas. And they are allowed to worship any other deity. I know it is also a philosophy and sometimes Buddhists say that one can be an X and a Buddhist at the same time. But it is not compatible with monotheism in my opinion since Buddhism at list allow the belief and worship of other deities, which is strictly barred at list according to Judaism and probably by any monotheistic religion.
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That's what i meant also. I don't know what Buddhism has to say about it, but in reality the Buddhists worship Buddha as a G-d, and sometimes also their Gurus or Lamas. And they are allowed to worship any other deity. I know it is also a philosophy and sometimes Buddhists say that one can be an X and a Buddhist at the same time. But it is not compatible with monotheism in my opinion since Buddhism at list allow the belief and worship of other deities, which is strictly barred at list according to Judaism and probably by any monotheistic religion.
It is probably the Mahayana (Chinese) Buddhists that you are thinking of. They are the ones most likely to view Buddha as a g-d. Therevada Buddhists believe that everything is G-d or that G-d is an omnipresent life force and that Siddhartha was only a great teacher (if I recall correctly) and Zens don't really believe in the existence of any deity and that Buddha was just a great man who showed us the way to inner peace.
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:) O0 O0
jews are a family.
but just as a person can care for people outside his family, so too jews can care about gentiles, particularly and very obviously, righteous gentiles.
So this is not something CF should get upset about.
I'm not a family member to evil leftists Jews many of them hate Israel,i feel closer to my Christian friends who have morals and love Israel ,where as the leftist Jews are not my family. BTW leftist Jews worship idols all the leading leftists they look upon like their G-DS
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I'm not a family member to evil leftists Jews many of them hate Israel,i feel closer to my Christian friends who have morals and love Israel ,where as the leftist Jews are not my family. BTW leftist Jews worship idols all the leading leftists they look upon like their G-DS
Interesting points. By the way, congratulations on achieving nearly 9000 posts!
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jews are a family.
but just as a person can care for people outside his family, so too jews can care about gentiles, particularly and very obviously, righteous gentiles.
So this is not something CF should get upset about.
I'm not a family member to evil leftists Jews many of them hate Israel,i feel closer to my Christian friends who have morals and love Israel ,where as the leftist Jews are not my family. BTW leftist Jews worship idols all the leading leftists they look upon like their G-DS
mord,
I am so sorry for you. Why dont you move to a nice Jewish neighborhood and be with your people. It was my african american neighbor saying "Go back to your people" when I was depressed and low which brought about my TESHUVA {Return to Judaism}. That along with three horrible tragedies in my family.
Where I live there is a minimal community {just enough to get a minyan when we need one}. I have three Rabbis {One Orthodox, One Liberal Progressive, and one Chabad}. I mostly follow the Orthodox Rabbi. The only synagogue in town is a liberal progressive synagogue {so I dont go often}. I daven with the Orthodox minyan.
All I am saying is that only you are forcing yourself to abandon your Jewish people. We are family... I feel the connection with each and every Jew whose Neshama shines.
Shalom,
muman613
PS: It is great to have all kinds of friends. I am not suggesting your existing friends are not wholesome or good. But you can learn more about Judaism from the Jews who truly try to come close to Hashem.
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jews are a family.
but just as a person can care for people outside his family, so too jews can care about gentiles, particularly and very obviously, righteous gentiles.
So this is not something CF should get upset about.
I'm not a family member to evil leftists Jews many of them hate Israel,i feel closer to my Christian friends who have morals and love Israel ,where as the leftist Jews are not my family. BTW leftist Jews worship idols all the leading leftists they look upon like their G-DS
mord,
I am so sorry for you. Why dont you move to a nice Jewish neighborhood and be with your people. It was my african american neighbor saying "Go back to your people" when I was depressed and low which brought about my TESHUVA {Return to Judaism}. That along with three horrible tragedies in my family.
Where I live there is a minimal community {just enough to get a minyan when we need one}. I have three Rabbis {One Orthodox, One Liberal Progressive, and one Chabad}. I mostly follow the Orthodox Rabbi. The only synagogue in town is a liberal progressive synagogue {so I dont go often}. I daven with the Orthodox minyan.
All I am saying is that only you are forcing yourself to abandon your Jewish people. We are family... I feel the connection with each and every Jew whose Neshama shines.
Shalom,
muman613
PS: It is great to have all kinds of friends. I am not suggesting your existing friends are not wholesome or good. But you can learn more about Judaism from the Jews who truly try to come close to Hashem.
I do have many Jewish and Christian friends all i'm saying some Jews that are anti Israel and leftist i don'nt look at as family i look at those leftist Jews as the Erev Rav
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jews are a family.
but just as a person can care for people outside his family, so too jews can care about gentiles, particularly and very obviously, righteous gentiles.
So this is not something CF should get upset about.
I'm not a family member to evil leftists Jews many of them hate Israel,i feel closer to my Christian friends who have morals and love Israel ,where as the leftist Jews are not my family. BTW leftist Jews worship idols all the leading leftists they look upon like their G-DS
mord,
I am so sorry for you. Why dont you move to a nice Jewish neighborhood and be with your people. It was my african american neighbor saying "Go back to your people" when I was depressed and low which brought about my TESHUVA {Return to Judaism}. That along with three horrible tragedies in my family.
Where I live there is a minimal community {just enough to get a minyan when we need one}. I have three Rabbis {One Orthodox, One Liberal Progressive, and one Chabad}. I mostly follow the Orthodox Rabbi. The only synagogue in town is a liberal progressive synagogue {so I dont go often}. I daven with the Orthodox minyan.
All I am saying is that only you are forcing yourself to abandon your Jewish people. We are family... I feel the connection with each and every Jew whose Neshama shines.
Shalom,
muman613
PS: It is great to have all kinds of friends. I am not suggesting your existing friends are not wholesome or good. But you can learn more about Judaism from the Jews who truly try to come close to Hashem.
I do have many Jewish and Christian friends all i'm saying some Jews that are anti Israel and leftist i don't look at as family i look at those leftist Jews as the Erev Rav
That's true, but not to get into technicalities Jews as a whole are a family, and a Jew should seek the welfar of another Jew, and since we are a family we should seek the benifit of eachother EXPECIALLY when it comes to helping each other make Tishuva and earn great things in Olam Haba (and even benifits in this world too). BUT on the other hand it would be a Mahlokit about which Jews are concidered as family and with who'm are we supposed to feel that connection, etc. Some might say it applies to those who are Shomer Mitzvot in general (expecially the Shabb-t which is a yardstick) or others might give the benifit and concider Jews who are not Shomer Shabb-t really as having the status of "kidnapped children". But either way it is somewhat complicated, and might depend on who you ask. BUT also with those who are not doing the right things, we should hate their actions and not them (except for a small minority).