JTF.ORG Forum
Israel => Save Israel => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on August 07, 2008, 05:38:52 PM
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>:( >:( Israeli Arab Muslim Works as "Shabbos Goy" in Jerusalem >:( >:(
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/46731.html
In Jerusalem, Muslim handles Sabbath chores for Jews
By Dion Nissenbaum
McClatchy Newspapers
JERUSALEM — In a city marinated in archaic traditions, rigid rituals and surreal customs, Abu Ali still has one of Jerusalem's oddest jobs.
Like Barack Obama, Colin Powell and Harry Truman, this 52-year-old Muslim serves Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community as a so-called Shabbos Goy.
From sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, when strictly observant Jews honor the holy day of rest by taking a break from work, TV, laptops, cell phones, shopping and the normal vagaries of life, Abu Ali is there to serve their emergency Sabbath needs.
He turns on air conditioners for families when it's hot. He turns off lights accidentally left on. And he rushes pregnant wives to the hospital. Lots of pregnant wives.
Abu Ali, who asked to be identified only by his nickname because he's kept his unusual job from friends and neighbors, is one of a select few Arab-Israelis working as a Shabbos Goy in Jerusalem. He's an atypical Muslim serving Orthodox Jews in a city where the two communities more often collide than connect.
"When I am here on the Sabbath, I am the king," he said one recent Friday at sundown as Orthodox men in black satin overcoats rushed by. "Everybody knows me. Everybody needs me."
"But after the Sabbath, nobody knows me," Abu Ali said with a shrug. "It's the nature of things."
Had he been born in the United States, Abu Ali seems like the kind of guy who'd play Santa Claus for New England shopping malls at Christmastime. He has a trim, white beard and smile lines around Paul Newman-blue eyes. He wears sandals and moves gingerly with the aid of a cane while he's recovering from heart surgery.
An unlikely array of American leaders also have performed Abu Ali's unusual religious duty.
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell used to collect a quarter a week turning the lights on and off at the synagogue in his boyhood Bronx neighborhood.
Growing up in Missouri, President Harry Truman used to light fires for the Jewish neighbors on cold Sabbath days.
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama used to open doors Friday evenings for his Jewish office-suite mate in the Illinois state Senate.
"I don't like using the term 'Shabbos goy,' but if I ever needed anything he was always there," said Illinois state Sen. Ira Silverstein, the Orthodox lawmaker who shared the suite with Obama.
This irregular Shabbos Goy trade grew out of a unique need in Orthodox communities for non-Jewish help on the Sabbath.
From sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, Jewish law calls on the observant to take a break from life. Cell phones are turned off. No one is allowed to drive. Meals must be cooked in advance. There's no TV. No computer. No shopping.
But times come when these observant families need help: A fuse blows. Someone accidentally leaves a light on in the bedroom. Someone needs to get to the hospital to give birth.
In those instances, Orthodox Jews call a Shabbos Goy.
Jerusalem's most conservative neighborhoods cordon off their streets with metal gates to make sure that no one who's breaking the Sabbath rules drives through. (At one point some years ago in Jerusalem, cars that accidentally drove into orthodox Jewish neighborhoods on the Sabbath were stoned.)
In one of these neighborhoods, not far from downtown Jerusalem, community leaders recently blessed Abu Ali as their Shabbos Goy.
For three years, Abu Ali set up an informal Shabbos Goy trade in the hospital emergency room of an adjacent neighborhood. When the medical center closed, he started anew, right down the street.
Two months ago, community leaders bought a small plastic shed for Abu Ali to work out of each week. It's big enough for a white plastic chair and a small refrigerator filled with soda.
Taped to the shed door, in big black Hebrew letters on fluorescent yellow paper: Shabbos Goy.
On authorized fliers that Abu Ali hands out, community leaders vouch for his character by noting that he's passed Israeli security checks and worked as a trusted Jerusalem bus driver for 25 years.
In a sign of the divisions, the fliers also urge community members to keep their business with Abu Ali to a minimum:
"Despite the fact that he is a known non-Jew (goy), parents are asked to please refrain from gathering around the booth and not to unnecessarily speak to the non-Jew."
One of those who use the service is Hershel Puretz, a young Brooklyn transplant who called Abu Ali to take his wife to the hospital two years ago to deliver their firstborn son.
In case of emergency, Puretz keeps Abu Ali's phone number in his cell phone address book, listed as "Goyim Shabbos."
Some Jews might have a problem using an Arab as a Shabbos Goy, Puretz said. But, for him, it's a fine option.
"You wonder if he loves us?" Puretz said. "Probably he does not. But if he's servicing me, so then I'm able to look over his shoulder. But I appreciate his service. And I'll pay him for it."
Like any archaic tradition, getting non-Jews to help on the Sabbath has evolved over time. Talmudic scholars, Jewish academics and Israeli lawmakers all have wrestled with how to balance religious devotion and modern life.
In this Jerusalem neighborhood, once the sun sets on Fridays and the streets are cordoned off, the only driver on the roads is Abu Ali, in his white taxi, with a red police light that he puts on the roof and special laminated signs he sticks in the front window so his car isn't mistakenly attacked.
Since observant Jews can't ask for help, they use a special code with Abu Ali. If they need the air conditioner turned on, they tell him that it's hot. If they need a light turned on or a fuse changed, they say that it's dark.
Abu Ali charges about $10 per visit. If he has to rush a pregnant woman to the hospital — something he said he sometimes has to do three or for times each Sabbath — it costs about $30.
The families aren't supposed to pay him for his services, so the community set up a box outside the neighborhood synagogue where people can put the money. If Abu Ali has to come collect directly, it costs an extra $5.
Though the ultra-Orthodox community might seem insular to the outside world, Abu Ali said he'd broken through the suspicions.
"If you don't know them, they're difficult," he said. "But when you get to know them, they're trustworthy."
Abu Ali doesn't talk much about his job to friends back in his predominantly Arab neighborhood between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. He knows that some people would laugh at him. He knows that some people think it's strange.
"But I don't tell them how much I make," Abu Ali said with a smile.
(McClatchy special correspondent Cliff Churgin contributed to this report from Jerusalem.)
>:( This s*** is exactly why Israel is being torn apart right now. The fact that so-called devout religious Jews see no problem with doing this needs no commentary. I could say what I wish would be done to Jews who hire Fakestinian Muslim Nazis to come into their own homes and do all of their work, but I would almost certainly get in trouble for it. >:(
Chaimfan
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Very, very dispicable... I agree...
But who will do the work of a Shabbos goy? Are there sufficient non-Jewish, bnei Noachs out there to do the work? I dont know the answer to this problem. But it is hard to judge others without being in their shoes.
muman613
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What are degenerates! BTW, why would you need a Shabbos Goy to "rush pregnant wives to the hospital."!? Shouldn't a husband do it, regardless of teh Shabbat?! Of course, for these degenerates a pretense is more important than saving Jewish life.
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The real irony is that the name of this guy "Abu Ali" is the same name to given by Haj Amin Al-Husseini to ADOLPH HITLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The real irony is that the name of this guy "Abu Ali" is the same name to given by Haj Amin Al-Husseini to ADOLPH HITLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I actually though of that, but for some reason didn't think to post it. Looks like this walking, talking camel turd is having the last laugh on all these moronic Jews who hire him. ::)
BTW, did you know that Adolf Hitler (ys"vz) is the ONLY non-Muslim in history to ever be declared an honorary Muslim?
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Are there sufficient non-Jewish, bnei Noachs out there to do the work? I dont know the answer to this problem. But it is hard to judge others without being in their shoes.
So if legally a Shabbos Goy has to be a Noahide, why do these losers hire Muslims? Aren't they violating Torah?
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Are there sufficient non-Jewish, bnei Noachs out there to do the work? I dont know the answer to this problem. But it is hard to judge others without being in their shoes.
So if legally a Shabbos Goy has to be a Noahide, why do these losers hire Muslims? Aren't they violating Torah?
Muslims are technically following Noachide laws too, I believe... I may be wrong. But I thought that they are not pagan according to halacha.
muman613
1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before G-d.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.
From http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/10/19/do-we-all-believe-in-the-same-g-d-do-muslims/
Rambam did not have much use for Christian theology, even though he had no personal reason to dislike Christians. He had every reason to hate Muslims (they ruined significant parts of his life), but still wrote that Muslims believe in a true monotheism. Traditional Jews (including at least two Israeli Chief Rabbis I am aware of) avoid stepping into Christian worship sanctuaries. I have heard that many do not have the same reluctance to walk into a mosque, although I have not investigated this thoroughly. I have some recollection of a psak to soldiers of the IDF that they could even use a mosque to pray. Behind this is the perception that Islamic monotheism is on target. (I know about the Ran who claims that Muslims worship Mohammed. I don’t know what to make of it. I asked a Muslim scholar friend about it, and he told me that there were non-mainstream groups at times that turned Mohammed into an object of veneration and worship, but they disappeared in time.)
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Which one of the Seven Laws do Muslims keep? ;D
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Are there sufficient non-Jewish, bnei Noachs out there to do the work? I dont know the answer to this problem. But it is hard to judge others without being in their shoes.
So if legally a Shabbos Goy has to be a Noahide, why do these losers hire Muslims? Aren't they violating Torah?
Muslims are technically following Noachide laws too, I believe... I may be wrong. But I thought that they are not pagan according to halacha.
muman613
<snip>
being a torah noachide is better than being a heretical one like a muslim(the rambam considers them noachides or abiding by the noachide laws).
This whole noachide law issue is *Completely irrelevant*
The idea of a shabbos goy is that he's not jewish. That's the requirement.
He can worship donald duck
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He can worship donald duck
ROTFLMAO :::D
Seriously, though, as a Walt Disney creation, Donald is probably an anti-Semite! :o ;D
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Are there sufficient non-Jewish, bnei Noachs out there to do the work? I dont know the answer to this problem. But it is hard to judge others without being in their shoes.
So if legally a Shabbos Goy has to be a Noahide, why do these losers hire Muslims? Aren't they violating Torah?
Muslims are technically following Noachide laws too, I believe... I may be wrong. But I thought that they are not pagan according to halacha.
muman613
<snip>
being a torah noachide is better than being a heretical one like a muslim(the rambam considers them noachides or abiding by the noachide laws).
This whole noachide law issue is *Completely irrelevant*
The idea of a shabbos goy is that he's not jewish. That's the requirement.
He can worship donald duck
That may be true, but wouldnt that be like bringing paganism into your house. I prefer my Shabbos Goy to be at least a Noachide... :)
muman613
PS: Is there really a cult of Donald Duck worship? I am not aware.
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Are there sufficient non-Jewish, bnei Noachs out there to do the work? I dont know the answer to this problem. But it is hard to judge others without being in their shoes.
So if legally a Shabbos Goy has to be a Noahide, why do these losers hire Muslims? Aren't they violating Torah?
Muslims are technically following Noachide laws too, I believe... I may be wrong. But I thought that they are not pagan according to halacha.
muman613
<snip>
being a torah noachide is better than being a heretical one like a muslim(the rambam considers them noachides or abiding by the noachide laws).
This whole noachide law issue is *Completely irrelevant*
The idea of a shabbos goy is that he's not jewish. That's the requirement.
He can worship donald duck
That may be true, but wouldnt that be like bringing paganism into your house. I prefer my Shabbos Goy to be at least a Noachide... :)
yea, but their are very very few real Noahides out there. Everyone is involved in doing the wrong thing whether it is idolatry, or thievery. And the case with the muslims- murder (or supporting those who murder, which is also being involved in murder).
And anyway if a goy happens to be in an area already and he is needed at the moment, I dont see why anyone would be upset for the fact that he or she is used, and Jews do not break the Shabb-t. (Its not like, if they are not asked, that will magically make all the arabs disappear).
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1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before G-d. (+)
But it depends. Because Allah is imo the ancien Moon idol al-illah. But there are different oppinions with good argumentations.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) (-)
Obviously not
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. (-)
They are stealing like the ravens and it is allowed to them by Islam (if the victim of their crime is a non-muslim)
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery. (-)
Muslims are often involved in prostitution business. Even in Israel. Rabbi Kahane speaks about this. And they are committing the vast majority of rapes in Europe. I have heard about cases in Israel too.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name. (-)
If you justify the offence of other laws from the bible with G-d's will, like raping, stealing and murdering. imo this is a violation of this rule.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
(+) Althrough if you assault sexually animals it is a violation.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly. (-)
Obviously not
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1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before G-d. (+)
But it depends. Because Allah is imo the ancien Moon idol al-illah. But there are different oppinions with good argumentations.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) (-)
Obviously not
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. (-)
They are stealing like the ravens and it is allowed to them by Islam (if the victim of their crime is a non-muslim)
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery. (-)
Muslims are often involved in prostitution business. Even in Israel. Rabbi Kahane speaks about this. And they are committing the vast majority of rapes in Europe. I have heard about cases in Israel too.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name. (-)
If you justify the offence of other laws from the bible with G-d's will, like raping, stealing and murdering. imo this is a violation of this rule.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
(+) Althrough if you assault sexually animals it is a violation.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly. (-)
Obviously not
Well, as I read on some other forum it seems that Islam today is not the Islam of Rambam. I have never touched a Koran {nor will I} and I dont know what it says, except for the KILL THE JEWS stuff. I thought it contained the 10 commandments as they believe we received them from Hashem. If they are not keeping at least these commandments they are most certainly doomed to suffer Hashems wrath. But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. This opinion may change as they realize the true nature of Islam.
muman613
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I think it is mainly because of the first point.
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"But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. "
Technically yes, (thats what I heard the Rambam wrote), BUT at the same time they have a big problem mainly with 2 things- stealing (like everyone else), and most of all Murder, if they support, or cheer or are even happy with murder they are held accountable. So technically all of the hamas-hezbollah, etc. crowds are Hayav Mita, and if they are killed (by us) we are not responsible for their blood.
BUT technically if their is a Muslim, who does not like to see for example Jews being blown up in buses, etc. Doesn't get a good feeling about it, doesn't support the terrorists and murderers in anyway (knowingly). Believes in G-d, doesn't steal, etc. Then they could be a Noahide in some opinions, and in another, maybe still not because a Noahide has to do soo in front of a Beit Din, and declare that they are doing it becuase G-d wants it, and not because the commandments are logical (but even a Muslim could maybe fall in this category) BUT, then another opinion might say still no, because a Muslim in essence could see himself as replacing the Jewish nation, etc. and the true G-d, is the G-d of Israel. So if a person is a noahide they cant have another religion to themselves because having another religion in essence says that they are replacing the G-d of Israel.
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Seriously, if you will trust an Arab to take your pregnant wife to the hospital so you don't break shabbat, then maybe you shouldn't be a parent at all!!
When I was seven-years old, I came down with a 102 degree fever on a friday night. Before my mom could get the thermometer out of my mouth, my father was dressed and ready to take me to the ER.
These "Orthodox Jews" would probably not fight in a war for fear of breaking Shabbat by engaging in military battle.
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Seriously, if you will trust an Arab to take your pregnant wife to the hospital so you don't break shabbat, then maybe you shouldn't be a parent at all!!
When I was seven-years old, I came down with a 102 degree fever on a friday night. Before my mom could get the thermometer out of my mouth, my father was dressed and ready to take me to the ER.
These "Orthodox Jews" would probably not fight in a war for fear of breaking Shabbat by engaging in military battle.
Gruznit,
Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.
muman613
PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.
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I dont see why anyone would be upset for the fact that he or she is used, and Jews do not break the Shabbat. (Its not like, if they are not asked, that will magically make all the arabs disappear).
Please tell me that you are not defending using Muslim Nazis as Shabbat flunkies.
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Gruznit,
Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.
muman613
PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.
Muman, Gruzinit is right on this. Hiring Muslim Nazis to take care of your wives and children is absolutely indefensible under any circumstances. The kind of Jews who do this aren't doing so because they care about following G-d's laws--these are the kinds of Jews who enjoy "cheap" Arab labor and doing business with these animals and pigs. These are kapos and traitors, pure and simple, and there is nothing that can undo that.
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Gruznit,
Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.
muman613
PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.
Muman, Gruzinit is right on this. Hiring Muslim Nazis to take care of your wives and children is absolutely indefensible under any circumstances. The kind of Jews who do this aren't doing so because they care about following G-d's laws--these are the kinds of Jews who enjoy "cheap" Arab labor and doing business with these animals and pigs. These are kapos and traitors, pure and simple, and there is nothing that can undo that.
So CF, are you calling all Ultra-Orthodox who live in Jerusalem nazi kapos and traitors? I hope not...
muman613
PS: A Jew is commanded to not be a talebearer against his own people. I will not engage in this lashon hara. It is sad this happened, but I will not condemn them because I am not aware of the particulars in the situation.
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Maybe this is a subtle way of making Muzzies subservient to them. ;D I still don't think it's a good idea though.
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Shame.
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So CF, are you calling all Ultra-Orthodox who live in Jerusalem nazi kapos and traitors? I hope not. A Jew is commanded to not be a talebearer against his own people. I will not engage in this lashon hara.
#1: Not all religious Jews in Jerusalem do this. I am sure that many are horrified by this practice. In fact, all GENUINE religious Jews are disgusted by this.
#2: Any Jew who hires Amalek to take care of his wife and children IS a kapo and a traitor, pure and simple. There is no defense for this in the past, present, or future. G-d commanded Jews to observe Shabbat. G-d also commanded Jews to exterminate Amalek--man, woman, and child. I realize that the latter cannot be accomplished right now, but is it really so hard not to pay devils to do domestic chores?
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Seriously, if you will trust an Arab to take your pregnant wife to the hospital so you don't break shabbat, then maybe you shouldn't be a parent at all!!
When I was seven-years old, I came down with a 102 degree fever on a friday night. Before my mom could get the thermometer out of my mouth, my father was dressed and ready to take me to the ER.
These "Orthodox Jews" would probably not fight in a war for fear of breaking Shabbat by engaging in military battle.
Gruznit,
Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.
muman613
PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.
I'm not afraid of offending people if I'm standing up for something I believe in muman613. My criticisms was never against Orthodox Jews in general, but against those(Religous and Secular alike) who entrust the lives of their families with Arabs because they are afraid G-d will punish them for turning on the air conditioner, or worse driving your wife to the hospital to deliever your baby when you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself.
I was simply contrasting this behavior to that of my father. While not fully observant, we did try our best to keep Shabbat, but when my father saw my health in jeopardy, he would never get a gentile to take me to the hospital because I was his responsibility!!!
And if you want a good example of the danger this can lead to, look at the tragedies at Mercaz HaRav Yeshiva and the Arab who used a bulldozer to kill 4 Jews. both being Arab workers who used their accessibility to inflict maximum damage. So be offended, I care more about the Jews who are being killed because of this idiocy.
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Gruzinit, did you see Tzvi stating that there is nothing inherently wrong with what these so-called observant Jews did?
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Seriously, if you will trust an Arab to take your pregnant wife to the hospital so you don't break shabbat, then maybe you shouldn't be a parent at all!!
When I was seven-years old, I came down with a 102 degree fever on a friday night. Before my mom could get the thermometer out of my mouth, my father was dressed and ready to take me to the ER.
These "Orthodox Jews" would probably not fight in a war for fear of breaking Shabbat by engaging in military battle.
Gruznit,
Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.
muman613
PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.
I'm not afraid of offending people if I'm standing up for something I believe in muman613. My criticisms was never against Orthodox Jews in general, but against those(Religous and Secular alike) who entrust the lives of their families with Arabs because they are afraid G-d will punish them for turning on the air conditioner, or worse driving your wife to the hospital to deliever your baby when you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself.
I was simply contrasting this behavior to that of my father. While not fully observant, we did try our best to keep Shabbat, but when my father saw my health in jeopardy, he would never get a gentile to take me to the hospital because I was his responsibility!!!
And if you want a good example of the danger this can lead to, look at the tragedies at Mercaz HaRav Yeshiva and the Arab who used a bulldozer to kill 4 Jews. both being Arab workers who used their accessibility to inflict maximum damage. So be offended, I care more about the Jews who are being killed because of this idiocy.
Gruzinit,
There are ways and there are ways. By inciting people to talk lashon hara you are doing a great sin. Do you think this kind of talk makes things better? Everyone knows that there are people who do things which are wrong. Also, there is no sin in driving your wife to the hospital when it is a matter of life and death. Do you think that Torah doesnt have the answer to these kinds of problems? Does Hashem ask us things to do which are too hard? I really dont think so.
So maybe you feel better by knocking these people. Also, according to this report it is the perspective of the arab. Who knows if he is lying or trying to make people look bad. Are there witnesses that this person actually does the things he says he does? In order for a Jew to condemn another it requires two witnesses and a rebuke before he does it. I am not willing in this case to come down on the side of severity.
muman613
PS: I may be in the minority decision here, but I have my reasons for judging favorably.
PPS: After re-reading it it seems some have come out to support him. Those should be taught that it is wrong to use people like this. I think a recent halachic ruling determined that Arabs should not be trusted for important work.
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Muman, can you provide a Torah defense for what these so-called religious Jews did?
Do you honestly believe that Torah teaches that Jews should pay Amalek to drive family members to the hospital during emergencies?
Can you show me what Gruzinit said wrong?
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A shabbos goy is not needed for life and death situations. Nobody thinks of a shabbos goy for that.
you can "break shabbat" if a life is at risk .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_under_Jewish_law "One is allowed to drive a woman to a hospital on Shabbat to give birth"
Things one cannot do on shabbat but kind of needs to, are little things, like turning off an alarm that probably shouldn't have gone off in the first place. Infact most cases of a shabbos goy just involve walking in and pushing a button. and not for a whole community but pehaps for a jewish neighbour. A rare occurrence, for when something goes wrong (alarm or light needs turning off).
i've never heard of a shabbos goy doing it as a paid job.. And because it involves rare little things, the idea of it being a paid job is a joke. It's just something done by a nice non-jewish neighbour. Though this is a bit different, it includes important jobs, and it's one guy that serves a large community.
they've obviously found some loophole to pay him..
I must say though, some jews would rather leave the alarm on or break shabbat and turn it off themselves than ask the gentile neighbour to turn the alarm off!!!!!!
Because of worry about what the gentile will think!
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Muman, can you provide a Torah defense for what these so-called religious Jews did?
Do you honestly believe that Torah teaches that Jews should pay Amalek to drive family members to the hospital during emergencies?
Can you show me what Gruzinit said wrong?
CF,
I dont want to get into the issue about WHO IS AMALEK. It is a question which requires answering for me to answer your question. According to Jewish belief the Arabs are descended from Ishmael, not Amalek. The last known Amalekites were the Persians, as Haman was a descendant of Amalek. Check out this link: https://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/?id=3254 or http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_cdo/aid/1369/jewish/Haman.htm .
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_16_-_King_Saul.asp
IDEOLOGY OF AMALEK
To this day, history continues to struggle with the consequences of Saul's mistake.
The Amalekite nation survives and Agag lives long enough to father a child before he is killed by the Prophet Samuel.
Today, we have no way of identifying the descendants of Amalek -- his descendents a mixed in amongst the nations, but we do know that the Amalekite ideology lives on. There has been more than one occasion when people have arisen bent on exterminating the Jews. The Bible itself mentions that the battle with Amalek represents the ultimate struggle in history between good evil with total victory achieved only at the End of Days.
...I [G-d] shall surely erase the memory of Amalek from under the heavens...G-d maintains a war against Amalek from generation to generation." (Exodus 17:14-16)
One such example was Haman, the Persian minister who tried to annihilate the Jews in the time of Queen Esther (355 B.C.E.). And Hitler certainly espoused Amalekite ideology:
Yes, we are barbarians! We want to be barbarians. It is an honorable title to us ... Providence has ordained that I should be the greatest liberator of humanity. I free man from ... the degrading self-mortification of a false vision called conscience and morality ... Conscience is a Jewish invention. (Hitler Speaks, pp. 87, 220-222.)
And looking at Hitler and the Holocaust we can understand that such intense hatred as the Bible ascribes to Amalek can exist in the world. The Nazis wanted to kill every Jew. A Jew could have been assimilated, intermarried with Christians for three generations but that didn't matter; the Nazis were bent on killing anyone with the slightest bit of Jewish heritage -- they were bent on wiping out any trace of the Jewish people and Jewish influence.
The only thing which I disagree with is talking lashon hara about people I dont know and I dont know the facts about. I think rebuke is good if done correctly. Actually, one of the lessons in this weeks Torah Portion is about giving rebuke to the children of Israel in a manner which is acceptable. Read Rashi on the Parasha of Devarim {which we read this Saturday}.
http://www.tachash.org/metsudah/d01r.html
RASHI ON DEVARIM
Verse 1: These are the words.
Because these are words of admonishment,1 and [because] he [Moshe] intended to recount here2 all the places where they [the Israelites] angered the Almighty,3 he therefore said these words in an obscure manner and only intimated [that they sinned in these places] to uphold the honor of Israel.
To all of Yisroel.
Had he admonished [only] some of them,4 those that were in the market place could have said, "You heard what the son of Amram said [about us] and did not refute him about anything; had we been there we would have refuted [his charges]." Therefore, he gathered all of them, and said to them, "You are all present here, he who can refute [me], let him refute [me].5
In the wilderness.
They were not in the wilderness but in the plains of Moav. What then is the meaning of {Hebrew Ref} ? It is mentioned here because6 they had angered G-d in the wilderness when they said "If only we had died [by the hand of Ad-noy,] etc."7
In the Arava plain.
Because it was at Arava8 that they had sinned through Baal Peor at Shittim9 in the plains of Moav.
I do agree it is wrong to employ people who may kill us in order to avoid doing Shabbos Melachos.
muman613
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the arabs claim descent from yishmael(Semite), and canaan(the Chamite/hamite) behave like amalek, and the ones in israel call themselves palestinians after the philistines.
That makes them like a 4 fold enemy!!
note- going down the father line, you either hit shem cham or yafet, not a combination! yishmael was a shemite, Canaan was a hamite. But spiritually.. In their minds, they are all these enemies rolled into one.
Maybe even 5 enemies.. maybe they are Magog too
(prophecy about Gog king of a nation, Magog, who attacks israel)..
Note- In islam, they have Gog and(not of) Magog, one muslim told me they are 2 giants in another dimension who are battling to get out and one day , muslims think, will!
“But when Gog and Magog are let loose and they rush headlong down every height (or advantage). Then will the True Promise draw near - (Qur'an 21:96-97) „
googling picked up some interpretation about alexander the great. Who by the way, many muslims seriously believe was a muslim prophet!!!
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I dont see why anyone would be upset for the fact that he or she is used, and Jews do not break the Shabbat. (Its not like, if they are not asked, that will magically make all the arabs disappear).
Please tell me that you are not defending using Muslim Nazis as Shabbat flunkies.
"shabbat flunkies" lol
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Gruznit,
Im sorry you feel that way. I am not going to sit here and speak lashon hara against them. Please be considerate and refrain from judging these people. HaSatan is waiting for your reply.
muman613
PS: I Know several very observant Orthodox who are very good parents for their children. To make generalizations like this is wrong.
Muman, Gruzinit is right on this. Hiring Muslim Nazis to take care of your wives and children is absolutely indefensible under any circumstances. The kind of Jews who do this aren't doing so because they care about following G-d's laws--these are the kinds of Jews who enjoy "cheap" Arab labor and doing business with these animals and pigs. These are kapos and traitors, pure and simple, and there is nothing that can undo that.
So CF, are you calling all Ultra-Orthodox who live in Jerusalem ...traitors? I hope not...
First off, it's not being a "traitor" or those other horrible terms CF used to do what these Jews are doing, but it is really STUPID and I think all of us here can agree on that, but let's be clear - NOT ALL ULTRA ORTHODOX JEWS in Jerusalem or anywhere, would TRUST A MUSLIM WITH DRIVING THEIR PREGNANT WIFE!!! The ones who do, I would have to say, are insane! But this does not mean all "ultra orthodox" do or are!
And as far as I know, you are allowed to break Shabbat to bring a pregnant woman to the hospital. Am I wrong?
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First off, it's not being a "traitor" or those other horrible terms CF used to do what these Jews are doing,
Excuse me? This goes WAY beyond stupid. These are not ignorant people--indeed, they are some of the most educated on the planet. My epithets for the individuals engaging in this behavior were COMPLETELY appropriate.
but it is really STUPID and I think all of us here can agree on that
No. "Stupid" is picking up some bum off the street to do your yard or giving your phone number out to some sleazeball in a bar. This is just morally perverse. Kahanist or not, you can't tell me that there are sincere religious Jews who are honestly not aware that Arabs aren't nice people.
NOT ALL ULTRA ORTHODOX JEWS in Jerusalem or anywhere, would TRUST A MUSLIM WITH DRIVING THEIR PREGNANT WIFE!!!
Agreed 100%. In fact, I actually said that all genuine religious Jews would consider that an abomination.
The ones who do, I would have to say, are insane!
They're more than insane, they're evil, and the blood the Jews that their workers murder is on their hands.
But this does not mean all "ultra orthodox" do or are!
Nobody here ever said that most Orthodox Israelis hire Arabs to do Shabbat work for them.
And as far as I know, you are allowed to break Shabbat to bring a pregnant woman to the hospital. Am I wrong?
I would have assumed this, and thought about saying it here, but figured that it wouldn't be appropriate for me to admonish this as a Gentile.
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Beyond stupid or not, the terms you used have actual definitions. When you call everyone and his brother the term that doesn't really apply to the situation, it ceases to have meaning at all....
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Just because they're being stupid doesn't make them traitors. They might not realize that by hiring this Muslim that they may be indirectly harming their own community. I'm sure this Muzzy puts himself off as a real upstanding guy. I don't think it's good to judge them, C.F., but I do think what we should do in this situation is try to help people see the nature of the Muslim for what he is, a dangerous element they're letting amongst their most vulnerable.
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Just because they're being stupid doesn't make them traitors. They might not realize that by hiring this Muslim that they may be indirectly harming their own community. I'm sure this Muzzy puts himself off as a real upstanding guy. I don't think it's good to judge them, C.F., but I do think what we should do in this situation is try to help people see the nature of the Muslim for what he is, a dangerous element they're letting amongst their most vulnerable.
Thank you for your understanding. It is ok to make personal judgement, I have no issue with that. But openly discussing such things only makes all Orthodox Jews look bad. At least in my opinion.
Thanks again,
muman613
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Here's how I see it.
My parents are fairly observant Jews, even though they drive, and turn lights on and off on Shabbat.
Now when I go to visit them some weekends, they'll use a hot plate to keep food made the previous day heated. My mother plugs the plate in on Friday night, leaves it plugged in all day Saturday, then turns it off Saturday night.
As for turning the lights on and off, that's still no excuse to employ a Shabbos Goy. During Yom Kippur, my parents would always tape certain lights on, and others off, so us kids knew not to touch them. So I don't understand why these people in Jerusalem couldn't do the same thing every Friday night for Shabbat.
And finally, using an Arab Shabbos Goy to drive your pregnant wife to the hospital to deliver a baby is ridiculous. You are allowed to break Shabbat if it's a matter of a life being at stake. So I'm going to have to agree with Gruzinit and C.F. on this one.
Personally, I think this Shabbos Goy business is just a way for some people to show off, and indirectly say "Ooh look how much more religious I am than everyone else!"
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I agree with Lisa. This light issue is really no good reason for it.
I am not fearful but I like it if the light burns during the night in the stairway, the entrance room and in the kitchen. I have bought for this special light bulbs.
This is totally enough to find the way in the house. And if you go in one room you can let the door open, so you see in it too.
For the sleeping room I have a small night light, that is only dimly lit, but always on too.
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Their is no need to have a shabbos goy to begin with. If someone has a medical emergency, a jew can take care of it during shabbos. This whole idea of a shabbos goy was concocted by chasidim in Boro Park and Williamsburg. They did it to enjoy yet another of the pleasures of living in America. As far as the using the muzzy as a shabbos goy, it's better to go with no light on shabbos than to bring a large arab turd into a home.
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Personally, I think this Shabbos Goy business is just a way for some people to show off, and indirectly say "Ooh look how much more religious I am than everyone else!"
Thank you Lisa. I couldn't have made a better point.
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I do not know of many situations where a goy was used on shabb-t, BUT I have seen one, and I see NO problem with it, no matter if it is an idolater, muslim or whoever else. For example the lights are turned off in shul (the only situation I have seen this happen) So the congregation needs a goy to turn on the lights for the services, soo one of the guys goes to the street, picks someone up and hints (or asks) that the light be turned on. What is the problem in this? Now if this would be in Israel, what would geniuses like C.F. say- no the congregation should not pray, just soo that a muslim doesn't turn on the lights for Jews? Or even worse, what would someone suggest that a Jew violate Shabb-t (G-d forbid), and not ask any goy to turn on the lights? (and it doesn't matter is it is a Noahide, an idolater or a Muslim). If they happen to be there, and are needed their is NO problem in using them for the moment, and its not like by doing soo anyone is promoting them being in Israel, so yess at the moment have them turn on the lights for the congregation, and then when the time is right and can be done kick them out of the Land.
This whole thread is rediculous, (just another one ::) ) BUT in the case of life and death yes a Jew can violate Shabb-t , ONLY if it is life and death risk.
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I have to agree with Gruzinit, Lisa, Pheasant, DownwithIslam, etc.
This is unconscionable. While I doubt that most Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem support this practice in any way, those Jews who do use Muslim Nazis to take care of their wives and children on the Sabbath (or to do any household chores at all) are diseased and sick people who deserve to be insulted.
Anyway my point in this story was to show how sick and insane some people are, and not in the least to imply that most Jews do that. My apologies if it came off that way--that was certainly not at all my intent.
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What is the problem in this? Now if this would be in Israel, what would geniuses like C.F. say- no the congregation should not pray, just soo that a muslim doesn't turn on the lights for Jews? Or even worse, what would someone suggest that a Jew violate Shabbat (G-d forbid), and not ask any goy to turn on the lights? (and it doesn't matter is it is a Noahide, an idolater or a Muslim).
Your beliefs need no comment, but please answer a question you have avoided for weeks--what happened to your wings, dude?
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Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabb-t, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabb-t, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow ??? ::)
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Shalom,
There has been occasions where a Shabbos Goy has been very helpful for me in order not to violate Shabbat. For instance about a month ago on Shabbat my plumbing in the house backed up. Since I have a room-mate who is my Shabbat goy, I didnt even have to ask him to fix the plumbing. There are several other times he has been able to turn on/off lights when needed.
My purpose here was just to say that the use of Shabbat Goyim is not WRONG. I am only sticking up for two principles here. The first is to avoid Lashon Hara against possibly righteous people who have done aveirahs/chets and bring the aveirah into our court. The second is to say that I see nothing wrong with having a helper to assist in keeping the many laws of Shabbat.
Also DownWithIslam, the Shabbat Goy was NOT invented in Boro Park. The job of the Shabbas Goy goes way back as they were responsible for lighting the stoves of Jews throughout history. I have found several links which explain just what a Shabbat goy is.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=518&letter=S
The Gentile employed in a Jewish household on the Sabbath-day to perform services which are religiously forbidden to Jews on that day. The Shabbat goy's duty is to extinguish the lighted candles or lamps on Friday night, and make a fire in the oven or stove on Sabbath mornings during the cold weather. A poor woman ("Shabbat goyah") often discharges these offices. The hire in olden times was a piece of ḥallah; in modern times, about 10 cents.
According to strict Jewish law, a Jew is not allowed to employ a non-Jew to do work on the Sabbath which is forbidden to a Jew. The rule of the Rabbis is "amirah le-goy shebut" (i.e., "to bid a Gentile to perform work on the Sabbath is still a breach of the Sabbath law," though not so flagrant as performing the work oneself); but under certain circumstances the Rabbis allowed the employment of non-Jews, especially to heat the oven on winter days in northern countries.
Legendary literature contains many instances in which the Shabbat goy was replaced by a Golem. The latest story in which the Shabbat goy plays a rôle is that of K. L. Silman Franco, in Hebrew, in "Aḥiasaf," 5665 (1904-5). Maxim Gorki, the Russian novelist, was once employed as a Shabbat goy by the Jewish colonists in the governments of Kherson and Yekaterinoslav.
I want to add that it is wrong via a torah mitzvah to ASK verbally a Shabbat Goy to do anything. Because he/she doesnt have the obligation to observe, there is no aveirah on either persons part. I do not ask my roommate do do anything on Shabbat, he is free to come and go as he wishes. But he knows if there is something wrong and just does what is best in the situation.
I have seen this done by my Orthodox role models too. While attending Shabbatons with my Rabbi there are times when lights need to be adjusted and a local non-Jew is responsible for taking care of it.
Once more I will say it is wrong to employ anyone who may have a propensity to kill you. But there are things which we are doing wrong too and all aveirah needs to be rectified.
muman613
More links:
Talmudic Responsa on Shabbos Goy : http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/shabbasgoy.html
How-To be a Shabbat Goy : http://www.ehow.com/how_2172569_be-shabbos-goy.html
PS: We cannot force non-Jew to observe Shabbat as there is a Talmud tractate which expressly forbids a non-Jew from observing the Shabbat. I have asked my room-mate to refrain from certain work in order to avoid the appearance that I am violating.
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1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before G-d. (+)
But it depends. Because Allah is imo the ancien Moon idol al-illah. But there are different oppinions with good argumentations.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) (-)
Obviously not
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. (-)
They are stealing like the ravens and it is allowed to them by Islam (if the victim of their crime is a non-muslim)
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery. (-)
Muslims are often involved in prostitution business. Even in Israel. Rabbi Kahane speaks about this. And they are committing the vast majority of rapes in Europe. I have heard about cases in Israel too.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name. (-)
If you justify the offence of other laws from the bible with G-d's will, like raping, stealing and murdering. imo this is a violation of this rule.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
(+) Althrough if you assault sexually animals it is a violation.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly. (-)
Obviously not
Well, as I read on some other forum it seems that Islam today is not the Islam of Rambam. I have never touched a Koran {nor will I} and I dont know what it says, except for the KILL THE JEWS stuff. I thought it contained the 10 commandments as they believe we received them from Hashem. If they are not keeping at least these commandments they are most certainly doomed to suffer Hashems wrath. But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. This opinion may change as they realize the true nature of Islam.
muman613
Muman, does your statement imply that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion?
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Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow ??? ::)
It's one thing insulting CF, it's another insulting all christians.
Regarding CF. I wouldn't take very seriously a comment (maybe said by CF) that only a traitor would allow a muslim to be a shabbos goy. A shabbos goy's purpose is so that a jew doesn't break shabbat.
As far as driving his pregnant wife to hospital. An action that -is- allowed on shabbat. I think if one can drive well and has a good sense of direction, and can get there fine, then he should do it himself.
I wouldn't call it traitorous to allow a muslim to do it, if the muslim has a record of being trustworthy in this.
I still don't like it though. . It's a muslim that doesn't live with these jews, he is just doing a job, he isn't close to them . Maybe one day he isn't paid so much or is angry.. it's not a good situation. But i'm sure they pay him quite well and he seems content. I don't like that situation. One doesn't need a muslim or even any shabbos goy for that. You can break shabbat when a life is in danger.
It's silly to call them traitors..
But I wouldn't take it too seriously.
It's not like people here are lapping up / poring over anti charedi press. Most of it is anti religious, and people here are generally religious and pro religious
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1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before G-d. (+)
But it depends. Because Allah is imo the ancien Moon idol al-illah. But there are different oppinions with good argumentations.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) (-)
Obviously not
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. (-)
They are stealing like the ravens and it is allowed to them by Islam (if the victim of their crime is a non-muslim)
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery. (-)
Muslims are often involved in prostitution business. Even in Israel. Rabbi Kahane speaks about this. And they are committing the vast majority of rapes in Europe. I have heard about cases in Israel too.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme G-d's name. (-)
If you justify the offence of other laws from the bible with G-d's will, like raping, stealing and murdering. imo this is a violation of this rule.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
(+) Althrough if you assault sexually animals it is a violation.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly. (-)
Obviously not
Well, as I read on some other forum it seems that Islam today is not the Islam of Rambam. I have never touched a Koran {nor will I} and I dont know what it says, except for the KILL THE JEWS stuff. I thought it contained the 10 commandments as they believe we received them from Hashem. If they are not keeping at least these commandments they are most certainly doomed to suffer Hashems wrath. But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. This opinion may change as they realize the true nature of Islam.
muman613
Muman, does your statement imply that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion?
I am not one to make a comment on this topic. In most cases I believe it is. In all truth, my Shabbos Goy is a lapsed Irish Catholic. As others here have stated all that is essential is that he/she not be of the Jewish faith. I have a great love for people of all faiths and will try not to say things to hurt others.
The issue can be answered by researching what the leading Poskims { Decider of religious issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poskim } of the Jewish people think about this issue. I am not a Poskim but I try to understand what they are saying.
I am sorry if there was an implication in what I said. It is of primary importance to a Jew who holds the unity of Hashem as the cornerstone of his faith to avoid any and all forms of imagery lest it appear he has violated the 2nd commandment.
I hope that explains my position satisfactorily.
muman613
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Well, as I read on some other forum it seems that Islam today is not the Islam of Rambam. I have never touched a Koran {nor will I} and I dont know what it says, except for the KILL THE JEWS stuff. I thought it contained the 10 commandments as they believe we received them from Hashem. If they are not keeping at least these commandments they are most certainly doomed to suffer Hashems wrath. But several Rabbis I talked to recently still gave over the opinion that Islam was a monotheistic religion and it is ok to go to mosque but not to church. This opinion may change as they realize the true nature of Islam.
muman613
Muman, does your statement imply that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion?
There is a rabbinical opinion, of RAMBAM, that christianity is idolatry , and another from Rashi, that it is not idolatry. They are both very big rabbis. From hundreds of years ago - almost a thousand years ago actually. But still extremely highly regarded today , and "authoritative" in the sense of trusting their judgement.
note- Most would say you cannot teach torah to gentiles.. this is relevant to the next thing..
Interestingly, Lisa posted a quote from the RAMBAM, written later I think, a letter he wrote, about teaching torah to christians being ok, but not to muslims. I think anybody would say it's forbidden to teach it to idolators. So that does suggest that the RAMBAM thought that christianity isn't idolatry.. One site suggested that maybe the RAMBAM changed his opinion on the issue - to saying it isn't.
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Muman, q_q_, I take no offense, just good discussion. I am just trying to understand the perspective that the Rabbis percieve Christianity as idol worship. Not to make any of the Catholics here mad, thier reverance for Mary, the Crucifix and Saints etc might be mistaken for idolatry or polythiesm, but protestants place no special significance to these or do we worship them.
We worship one God who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only god in this world and that is the God of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.
Thanks
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Muman, q_q_, I take no offense, just good discussion. I am just trying to understand the perspective that the Rabbis percieve Christianity as idol worship. Not to make any of the Catholics here mad, thier reverance for Mary, the Crucifix and Saints etc might be mistaken for idolatry or polythiesm, but protestants place no special significance to these or do we worship them.
We worship one G-d who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only G-d in this world and that is the G-d of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.
Thanks
Different rabbinical opinions on the issue. Some say idolatry, some say not.
It's probably the worshipping a man (we believe no man is G-d) that would make a rabbinical opinion within jewish belief say it is idolatry. But don't be bothered by other peoples' beliefs.. For example, even if christians believe i'm going to hell for not accepting jesus, then that's fine with me! 'cos it's a belief they have, from their text or theology, it's not up to them. But it's not my belief so it doesn't bother me either.
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Shalom,
Here is a good site with the Halachos of Shabbat Goyim : http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/goyim.htm .
As I said before, it is prohibited to ASK a goy to do any work. But there are ways to set up before hand how the non-Jew should know what is needed to be done...
A. General Principles
1) It is prohibited to tell, or even hint in a way that infers a command, to a goy to do any Melacha d'Orysa [activity prohibited by the Torah] or d'Rabbanan [prohibited by the Talmud] on Shabbos.
2) It is permissible, however, to hint in a way that does not infer a command to a goy to do a Melacha [prohibited activity] on Shabbos; and it is permissible to hint, even in a way that infers a command, to a goy either before Shabbos to do a Melacha on Shabbos, or on Shabbos to do a Melacha after Shabbos.
3) In any event, it is forbidden for a Jew to derive direct benefit from any Melacha done for him by a goy on Shabbos.
4) Examples:
a. It is permissible to say to a goy on Shabbos: "It's hard to sleep when the light is on in the room," but not: "Why didn't you turn off my light last Shabbos."
b. It is permissible to say: "I can't read because there isn't enough light," or: "The house isn't lit up enough because only one candle is burning," but not: "Do me a favor, there's not enough light in the room." If there was previously no light at all in the room, it is prohibited to derive benefit from the Melacha of the goy even bemakom mitzva [when doing so will enable the performance of a mitzva].
c. It is permissible to say: "I have no torn toilet paper" (since the paper may be used, albeit with difficulty, uncut).
d. Before Shabbos it is permissible to say to a goy : "Why didn't you want last week to open the letters which came for me on Shabbos?"
We worship one G-d who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only G-d in this world and that is the G-d of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.
Shamgar, that topic is very very confusing to a Jew. To us ONE means ONE, not three. G-d is indivisible to a Jew, though we relate to him through a variety of names. A name is not a separate entity, it is another way of looking at the same infinite identity. I dont think we should argue this issue and if you see unity in three, that is very good.
muman613
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We worship one G-d who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only G-d in this world and that is the G-d of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.
That is also a big problem, but whatever I dont make any judgements, I only try to follow what the Giants in Torah wrote and said, for example the Rambam, Ramban, etc. (also brought down in modern day books/lectures by Rabbis like Rav Kahane, Rabbi Mizrachi, etc.
And qq- their are always sites/ people who try to say- no that Rabbi doesn't really mean that, or they would change their mind because of this or that. For example I even heard once that Buddism and the things they practice in India is not really idolatry ::) because they really recognize one power being behind it all (which even the big time idolaters of thousands of years ago all have said that). It was laughable.
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That is also a big problem,
For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts. But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry. From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.
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That is also a big problem,
For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts. But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry. From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.
I have heard differently, both in books (including Rav Kahane ZTL HYD) and in lectures (like Rav Mizachi Shlita) and in shul. It is completly politically correct to say something like- ooh for Jews its idolatry and for non-Jews it is allowed (like I read in the past by ppl like Dr. Dan)- or maybe its just a Persian/ Askenazi/galut mentality that you guys (and girls) have. Maybe its just the Bukharians and Sefaradim who speak in the non-politically correct/ non-polite way, i dont know.
You are right that Rabbis do not focus on these things, BUT at the same time officially and religiously Jews should not promote it, nor say its okay. I agree that at the wrong times not to bring it up, but still. For example Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom, throughtout his life would speak to people telling them tha ttheir beliefs are wrong, that they should recognize the 1 and only, indivisible, true G-d, and was even thrown into a burning furnice for this. Do you think he would ever say- ooh for me it is wrong to worship fire, or worship the sun, etc. but for you (for example the king) it is okay?
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Thanks all for the discussion, I recieved an unintentional enlightenment out of your explanations. A couple years ago I worked for a Jewish man in Altanta. I acted as his personal administrator/asistant as well as responsible for all new technology that was brought into his businesses.
He is a very successful businessman and a multi, multi millionaire. He had hundreds of people that worked for him. He had a lot of power but never exerted or influences anyone with it. I always had a hard time understanding that he was asking me to do something or start some initiative. I was used to the business world where things were very direct and intent was in your face. He would make an idirect statement just as you stated in your post. Sometimes I wouldn't catch his intent and later on he would very patiently try another tact.
He is one of the smartest and caring men I have ever known and I grew to love and respect him very much. He taught me empathy and patience and clipped the sharp corners off my Type A personality.
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That is also a big problem,
For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts. But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry. From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.
I have heard differently, both in books (including Rav Kahane ZTL HYD) and in lectures (like Rav Mizachi Shlita) and in shul. It is completly politically correct to say something like- ooh for Jews its idolatry and for non-Jews it is allowed (like I read in the past by ppl like Dr. Dan)- or maybe its just a Persian/ Askenazi/galut mentality that you guys (and girls) have. Maybe its just the Bukharians and Sefaradim who speak in the non-politically correct/ non-polite way, i dont know.
You are right that Rabbis do not focus on these things, BUT at the same time officially and religiously Jews should not promote it, nor say its okay. I agree that at the wrong times not to bring it up, but still. For example Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom, throughtout his life would speak to people telling them tha ttheir beliefs are wrong, that they should recognize the 1 and only, indivisible, true G-d, and was even thrown into a burning furnice for this. Do you think he would ever say- ooh for me it is wrong to worship fire, or worship the sun, etc. but for you (for example the king) it is okay?
Tzvi,
I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November. In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. By always going the route of rebuke and harsh justice we may not be able to make it to the goal. As my highschool buddy wrote in my yearbook, "Moderation in all things.... Except for vodka! :) " .
Every soul is on a different level and it is wise to customize the lesson to the student. I am trying to learn from this Shabbats parsha of Devarim how Moshe was able to rebuke the Children of Israel in a moderate way so as to teach them, not push them away. Here I quote from http://www.torah.org/learning/dvartorah/5758/devarim.html :
"MOSHE SPOKE TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL...AFTER HE HAD SMITTEN SICHON KING OF THE AMORITES, WHO DWELT IN CHESHBON, AND OG, THE KING OF BASHAN, WHO DWELT IN ASHTASROS AT EDREI" (Devarim 1:3,4)
The sages teach that here when Moshe "spoke" to the Jewish People, it was words of rebuke. Rebuke is most effective when it can be perceived as being sincere. The Torah emphasizes that Moshe rebuked the Jewish people _after_ he had smitten Sichon and Og. Moshe reasoned, that if he rebuked them before they entered at least _part_ of the land, they might wonder what their leader had against them and what good he had done for them since "it must be that he does not have the power to bring us into the land". Moshe therefore waited until after he had conquered part of the land before giving the necessary rebuke. (a paraphrasing of Rashi)
"Had the people felt that Moshe's rebuke was insincere and that he had ulterior motives, his words would have been ineffective. A person will only accept rebuke if he feels that the rebuker has his best interest in mind."
"We also see from here that timing is a major factor in rebuke. In many instances by waiting for an opportune time to deliver admonition, a person will be more successful than he would have been had he admonished earlier."
Let us learn from Hashems words which he gave to Moshe at the threshold of Eretz Yisroel. The world was created for us to rectify. May we find the words to bring about the true redemption.
muman613
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<snip>
Tzvi,
I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November. In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. <snip>
Muman, Stop playing games here and be honest. (And by the way, this is a topic YOU brought up anyway, for no good reason)
I said already on it - after you brought it up.
RAMBAM said it is idolatry.
Rashi said it is not idolatry.
Tzvi, if you have some ideas about stopping christianity being promoted amongst gentiles, then maybe JTF isn't the place for those ideas. You're certainly not speaking from the RAMBAM or Rashi.
Infact, the RAMBAM said that christianity and islam were to pave the way for the way for the messianic era by spreading belief in G-d.
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<snip>
Tzvi,
I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November. In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. <snip>
Muman, Stop playing games here and be honest.
I said already.
RAMBAM said it is idolatry.
Rashi said it is not idolatry.
Tzvi, if you have some ideas about stopping christianity being promoted amongst gentiles, then maybe JTF isn't the place for those ideas. You're certainly not speaking from the RAMBAM or Rashi.
Infact, the RAMBAM said that christianity and islam were to pave the way for the way for the messianic era by spreading belief in G-d.
q_q_,
I am being honest here. The issue is not what the others believe. You are saying that there are two different answers to the question and it is a matter of personal choice to choose which finding to follow? I am willing to accomodate both findings and still I say that being in a place where divine imagery is displayed is wrong. I understand this finding and it is what my personal rabbis have taught.
As I was the one who brought this issue up, I request that we politely stop discussion on this topic. I am not being politically correct. I am just trying to avoid un-necessary machlokes, being conflict not for the sake of heaven.
Let there be peace amongst all of us. Our beliefs are flexible and rigid at the same time. We must learn where to apply flexibility and when to stand firm. It is good to point to Avraham as a role model. But are we truly ready to be thrown into the furnace? I most certainly am not.
muman613
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This is getting ridiculous. My thread was about a few demented Jews in Israel who use Muslim Nazis as shabbat goyim, not what religions are and aren't idolatry and who should be allowed to learn Torah. Why are you guys changing the subject?
Is all that some of you can do when I point out that any Jew who brings Arab Nazis into their homes to care for their loved ones is sick and twisted is turn the discussion around into attacks on other faiths?
For the record, once more, I very much doubt that most Jews (even the brainwashed ones) approve of using Muslim Nazis to do Sabbath work, but those who do are deranged. I am not going to apologize for this.
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This is getting ridiculous. My thread was about a few demented Jews in Israel who use Muslim Nazis as shabbat goyim, not what religions are and aren't idolatry and who should be allowed to learn Torah. Why are you guys changing the subject?
Is all that some of you can do when I point out that any Jew who brings Arab Nazis into their homes to care for their loved ones is sick and twisted is turn the discussion around into attacks on other faiths?
For the record, once more, I very much doubt that most Jews (even the brainwashed ones) approve of using Muslim Nazis to do Sabbath work, but those who do are deranged. I am not going to apologize for this.
CF,
You are right... This thread has gone way off topic.
To summarize my position : YES IT WAS WRONG TO EMPLOY ARABS IN THIS LINE OF WORK
I believe that there are Rabbis in Israel who are trying to create new Halachas which will ban the use of Arab labor. I support those Rabbis.
muman613
PS: I fail to see any attacks on other faiths, at least from my postings. If you feel hurt by my posting I most certainly apologize because that was not my intent. Sometimes I forget the audience I am writing for and say things which may not be received very well. Please accept my apology.
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I am not offended by Jewish beliefs nor will I argue Jewish beliefs, I like to ask questions in this forum because I am inquisitive. I respect your beliefs and I believe most Jews respect reightouse Christian beliefs.
So can we all be happy and allies now??
O0 O0
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Of course we can be happy and allies Shamgar. I think you've been a great JTF'er.
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I am not offended by Jewish beliefs nor will I argue Jewish beliefs, I like to ask questions in this forum because I am inquisitive. I respect your beliefs and I believe most Jews respect reightouse Christian beliefs.
So can we all be happy and allies now??
O0 O0
Shamgar,
Yes, I never felt anything besides love for my fellow JTFers...
Smiles to you :)
muman613
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Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow ??? ::)
You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Tina Greco fan: ::)
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
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Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow ??? ::)
You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Tina Greco fan: ::)
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
Tzvi is no Greco fan. C.F, this is obvious. :(
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Tzvi is no Greco fan. C.F, this is obvious. :(
Did you actually read his exact quote on the splinter forum?
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Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow ??? ::)
You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Tina Greco fan: ::)
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
Tzvi is no Greco fan. C.F, this is obvious. :(
Of-course I am, I dont agree with cf, so that makes me a nazi, or grinko or whoever els's fan, just because I dont approve and dont stand by silently while the so-called ally of the Jews, cf rants and paints a bad picture agains't soo many Jews.
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CF,
You are right... This thread has gone way off topic.
To summarize my position : YES IT WAS WRONG TO EMPLOY ARABS IN THIS LINE OF WORK
I believe that there are Rabbis in Israel who are trying to create new Halachas which will ban the use of Arab labor. I support those Rabbis.
muman613
PS: I fail to see any attacks on other faiths, at least from my postings. If you feel hurt by my posting I most certainly apologize because that was not my intent. Sometimes I forget the audience I am writing for and say things which may not be received very well. Please accept my apology.
A few people used the i-word, and debated whether or not it is acceptable to teach Gentiles Torah. Neither were called for or at all relevant to my thread (which, btw, was merely a Yahoo News item I randomly saw yesterday). I did not mean for this thread to attack the practice of using shabbas goyim in principle (which is something I know and care nothing about anyway, besides to say that if Jews are going to do this, I really, truly hope they only choose decent, trustworthy Gentiles)--that was not the point at all, but only to attack the self-hating losers who employ Fakestinians as shabbas goyim.
I agree with Shlomo that this was a propaganda piece meant to stir up sympathy for Israeli Arab Nazis, but sadly this phenomenon does go on. I don't think for a minute most orthodox Jews in Israel do this or approve of it, but those who are are demented traitors.
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cf rants and paints a bad picture agains't soo many Jews.
Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.
But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?
Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! ;)
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Did you actually read his exact quote on the splinter forum?
Stop it. Just because you have a problem with Tzvi does not mean you should be personally attacking him. He didn't support her and you should stop making accusations against him.
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Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.
But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?
Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! ;)
Do you have any proof he defended her?
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cf rants and paints a bad picture agains't soo many Jews.
Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.
But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?
Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! ;)
CF,
I dont approve of your attacking Tzvi in this fashion. I have apologized for bringing up a sensitive topic. Can you please try to judge more favorably?
muman613
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Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.
But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?
Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! ;)
Do you have any proof he defended her?
He thinks he does, but he cant read correctly, that telling people that they should not go to myspace/ yourface (you know the other site) with their pictures and information, and then be suprised and angry that nazi's could see them is the same as supporting nazi's.
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He thinks he does, but he cant read correctly, that telling people that they should not go to myspace/ yourface (you know the other site) with their pictures and information, and then be suprised and angry that nazi's could see them is the same as supporting nazi's.
Actually, that's not how it happened at all.
A group of people met in person one day for Vito Vaccaro's press conference announcing his candidacy for the Loyalist party. Several JTF'ers were there, and they decided to have a group picture. I made it very clear that I didn't want the pictures going on any other web site.
Anyway, to make a long story short, Jasmina sent the pictures to Tina Greco, not know that Greco is a nazi. The rest is history.
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OK ya'll. Don't make me lock this thread and...... >:(
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That is also a big problem,
For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts. But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry. From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.
I have heard differently, both in books (including Rav Kahane ZTL HYD) and in lectures (like Rav Mizachi Shlita) and in shul. It is completly politically correct to say something like- ooh for Jews its idolatry and for non-Jews it is allowed (like I read in the past by ppl like Dr. Dan)- or maybe its just a Persian/ Askenazi/galut mentality that you guys (and girls) have. Maybe its just the Bukharians and Sefaradim who speak in the non-politically correct/ non-polite way, i dont know.
You are right that Rabbis do not focus on these things, BUT at the same time officially and religiously Jews should not promote it, nor say its okay. I agree that at the wrong times not to bring it up, but still. For example Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom, throughtout his life would speak to people telling them tha ttheir beliefs are wrong, that they should recognize the 1 and only, indivisible, true G-d, and was even thrown into a burning furnice for this. Do you think he would ever say- ooh for me it is wrong to worship fire, or worship the sun, etc. but for you (for example the king) it is okay?
Tzvi,
I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November.
Other people's religious beliefs are their own and I'm not offended by them. I support Israel because I think the Jews have both a Divine and secular right to it. That's their homeland and they should be able to live there among their own people without enemies or people who cause trouble for them.
In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. By always going the route of rebuke and harsh justice we may not be able to make it to the goal. As my highschool buddy wrote in my yearbook, "Moderation in all things.... Except for vodka! :) " .
If you believe something to be true then I don't mind if you say so. Tzvi and you are telling how you believe and I don't think anyone should really take offense to that. You guys didn't make it up, it came down from earlier rabbis who believed this, yes? Now I agree with you on one point, you shouldn't go up to random Christians and shout "idolater" at them, and I know you're too nice of a person to do that. ;) Plus it might not be the best idea to make that your whole focus if you want to draw Christian support. However if someone asks you how you believe you shouldn't dodge around it, just say so. We're all adults here and I'm sure the vast majority of Christians who support Israel and the Jewish people would continue to do so. We all know there are major gaps between the religions and that's just one of them. It's not a big deal to me. I love you guys anyway and we have so much in common as far as who our enemies are and what we want the world to look like that differences like that don't matter much to me. :) O0
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That is also a big problem,
For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts. But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry. From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.
I have heard differently, both in books (including Rav Kahane ZTL HYD) and in lectures (like Rav Mizachi Shlita) and in shul. It is completly politically correct to say something like- ooh for Jews its idolatry and for non-Jews it is allowed (like I read in the past by ppl like Dr. Dan)- or maybe its just a Persian/ Askenazi/galut mentality that you guys (and girls) have. Maybe its just the Bukharians and Sefaradim who speak in the non-politically correct/ non-polite way, i dont know.
You are right that Rabbis do not focus on these things, BUT at the same time officially and religiously Jews should not promote it, nor say its okay. I agree that at the wrong times not to bring it up, but still. For example Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom, throughtout his life would speak to people telling them tha ttheir beliefs are wrong, that they should recognize the 1 and only, indivisible, true G-d, and was even thrown into a burning furnice for this. Do you think he would ever say- ooh for me it is wrong to worship fire, or worship the sun, etc. but for you (for example the king) it is okay?
Tzvi,
I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November.
Other people's religious beliefs are their own and I'm not offended by them. I support Israel because I think the Jews have both a Divine and secular right to it. That's their homeland and they should be able to live there among their own people without enemies or people who cause trouble for them.
In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. By always going the route of rebuke and harsh justice we may not be able to make it to the goal. As my highschool buddy wrote in my yearbook, "Moderation in all things.... Except for vodka! :) " .
If you believe something to be true then I don't mind if you say so. Tzvi and you are telling how you believe and I don't think anyone should really take offense to that. You guys didn't make it up, it came down from earlier rabbis who believed this, yes? Now I agree with you on one point, you shouldn't go up to random Christians and shout "idolater" at them, and I know you're too nice of a person to do that. ;) Plus it might not be the best idea to make that your whole focus if you want to draw Christian support. However if someone asks you how you believe you shouldn't dodge around it, just say so. We're all adults here and I'm sure the vast majority of Christians who support Israel and the Jewish people would continue to do so. We all know there are major gaps between the religions and that's just one of them. It's not a big deal to me. I love you guys anyway and we have so much in common as far as who our enemies are and what we want the world to look like that differences like that don't matter much to me. :) O0
Thank you very much Ruby, your understanding is inspiring.
muman613
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Thank you very much Ruby, your understanding is inspiring.
You're welcome!
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He thinks he does, but he cant read correctly, that telling people that they should not go to myspace/ yourface (you know the other site) with their pictures and information, and then be suprised and angry that nazi's could see them is the same as supporting nazi's.
Once again, the boy who defends the Satmar and Jews who hire Muslim Nazis to take care of their kids--the boy who lost his wings--lies. Like Lisa said, Tzvi's heroine Tina Greco got those pics because Jasmina and the retard Yacov trusted her and thought she was a real JTFer. Like the porn-posting wetback Jesus Rivera, Jr. (who Tzvi is probably a fan of as well), Tzvi is hellbent on defending that Whorefront harpie.
For the record this is what esteemed JTF member Tzvi Ben Roshel says about Tina Greco and the people she tried to have murdered over at the kennel club:
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
One thing I do not understand with all of these people who complained that their pics were posted or address was posted and felt their lives were/are in danger, why did they post the pictures online to begin with? And what is the difference if they are on the Kahane forum or the JTF forum or wherever, or if they are on myspace/yourface and wherever grinko or whoever else got the information. Same goes for Chaim's old address. Yes tino is a nazi, etc. but why the big commotion I do not understand if expecialy that address appeared on all the JTF T.V. shows, where anyone in Queens with a telivision could have viewed it?
* sorry correction- it was the P.O. Box which is different, but still the people with the pictures, those who post their pics online should know that they could be seen by anyone including nazis, soo get out of all the nonsense on myspace/yourface.
Care to talk your way out of this one, wingless one? :)
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He thinks he does, but he cant read correctly, that telling people that they should not go to myspace/ yourface (you know the other site) with their pictures and information, and then be suprised and angry that nazi's could see them is the same as supporting nazi's.
Once again, the boy who defends the Satmar and Jews who hire Muslim Nazis to take care of their kids--the boy who lost his wings--lies. Like Lisa said, Tzvi's heroine Tina Greco got those pics because Jasmina and the retard Yacov trusted her and thought she was a real JTFer. Like the porn-posting wetback Jesus Rivera, Jr. (who Tzvi is probably a fan of as well), Tzvi is hellbent on defending that Whorefront harpie.
For the record this is what esteemed JTF member Tzvi Ben Roshel says about Tina Greco and the people she tried to have murdered over at the kennel club:
http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170
One thing I do not understand with all of these people who complained that their pics were posted or address was posted and felt their lives were/are in danger, why did they post the pictures online to begin with? And what is the difference if they are on the Kahane forum or the JTF forum or wherever, or if they are on myspace/yourface and wherever grinko or whoever else got the information. Same goes for Chaim's old address. Yes tino is a nazi, etc. but why the big commotion I do not understand if expecialy that address appeared on all the JTF T.V. shows, where anyone in Queens with a telivision could have viewed it?
* sorry correction- it was the P.O. Box which is different, but still the people with the pictures, those who post their pics online should know that they could be seen by anyone including nazis, soo get out of all the nonsense on myspace/yourface.
Care to talk your way out of this one, wingless one? :)
Soo? What is wrong in telling people not to post their pics on myspace and online, also my apoligies to Lisa, I didn't know that was exactly how it happened, and I didn't really get involved in that episode, but I do remember someone else complaining a lot that his pic was takin from myspace and that nazis could see it, my point is/was that a Jew should not post his pictures on that or other sites if he or she doesn't want or is afraid that nazi's will see the pictures.
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also my apoligies to Lisa, I didn't know that was exactly how it happened, and I didn't really get involved in that episode
Ri-ight. ::) And that's also why you think it was no big deal for her to post Chaim's personal information (since it supposedly appeared on one of his old shows).
BTW I seem to recall that you owe Lisa 20 smackeroos.
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C.F. please stop this.
Tzvi is no Rivera fan. Rivera works together with Greco and had supplied her with informations about Jews, who are active on JTF.
Tzvi would never inform about a fellow Jew and he would never support this behaviour.
Let's end this discussion here. We have had enough trouble in the past. :)
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OK I have locked the thread!!! Don't make me have to ban anyone.
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Pheasant, Tzvi's behavior is completely out of line--calling people idolaters, "Mexicans", etc--not to mention his actual positions, such as defending the Satmar and saying that what Tina Greco did was no big deal.
He should have been banned after his first five posts.
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Oh ohhh. My lock thread button has failed. My super powers have failed. I can no longer exert far reaching and vast influence over others from afar.... I am mere mortal. What we need here is an all powerful Jewish Ninja. I think a well-place throwing Star of David would be great right about now.
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I don't care about the money, C.F., so please let it go.
Also, Greco posted DownwithIslam's picture on a nazi website referring to him as a k--e. I have no idea how she got a hold of it.
Greco also posted Rubystars' name, address and phone number on the same nazi site. And as far as I know, Rubystars never put up pictures of herself on this forum.
Greco then did the same thing with Lubab and Yacov. Now as C.F. said, Yacov trusted her and had no idea of what she was when he gave her the address of his Geocities webpage. Now Lubab has never posted pictures of himself anywhere. So how she got his info., I don't know.
And I happen to agree with Tzvi about not putting up your picture online. I wouldn't do it here, or on my blogs at all. I don't even blog using my real name. I know some non-Jews who keep a very open profile, yet they are armed to the teeth.