Unbelievable Self-Hatred: "Orthodox" Jews in Israel Use Muzzies as Shabbos Goyim

[Shamgar]

Muman, q_q_, I take no offense, just good discussion. I am just trying to understand the perspective that the Rabbis percieve Christianity as idol worship. Not to make any of the Catholics here mad, thier reverance for Mary, the Crucifix and Saints etc might be mistaken for idolatry or polythiesm, but protestants place no special significance to these or do we worship them.

We worship one God who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only god in this world and that is the God of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.

Thanks

[q_q_]

Muman, q_q_, I take no offense, just good discussion. I am just trying to understand the perspective that the Rabbis percieve Christianity as idol worship. Not to make any of the Catholics here mad, thier reverance for Mary, the Crucifix and Saints etc might be mistaken for idolatry or polythiesm, but protestants place no special significance to these or do we worship them.

We worship one G-d who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only G-d in this world and that is the G-d of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.

Thanks

Different rabbinical opinions on the issue. Some say idolatry, some say not.

It's probably the worshipping a man (we believe no man is G-d) that would make a rabbinical opinion within jewish belief say it is idolatry. But don't be bothered by other peoples' beliefs.. For example, even if christians believe i'm going to hell for not accepting jesus, then that's fine with me!   'cos it's a belief they have, from their text or theology, it's not up to them. But it's not my belief so it doesn't bother me either.

[muman613]

Shalom,

Here is a good site with the Halachos of Shabbat Goyim : http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/goyim.htm .

As I said before, it is prohibited to ASK a goy to do any work. But there are ways to set up before hand how the non-Jew should know what is needed to be done...

A. General Principles

1) It is prohibited to tell, or even hint in a way that infers a command, to a goy to do any Melacha d'Orysa [activity prohibited by the Torah] or d'Rabbanan [prohibited by the Talmud] on Shabbos.

2) It is permissible, however, to hint in a way that does not infer a command to a goy to do a Melacha [prohibited activity] on Shabbos; and it is permissible to hint, even in a way that infers a command, to a goy either before Shabbos to do a Melacha on Shabbos, or on Shabbos to do a Melacha after Shabbos.

3) In any event, it is forbidden for a Jew to derive direct benefit from any Melacha done for him by a goy on Shabbos.
4) Examples:

a. It is permissible to say to a goy on Shabbos: "It's hard to sleep when the light is on in the room," but not: "Why didn't you turn off my light last Shabbos."

b. It is permissible to say: "I can't read because there isn't enough light," or: "The house isn't lit up enough because only one candle is burning," but not: "Do me a favor, there's not enough light in the room." If there was previously no light at all in the room, it is prohibited to derive benefit from the Melacha of the goy even bemakom mitzva [when doing so will enable the performance of a mitzva].

c. It is permissible to say: "I have no torn toilet paper" (since the paper may be used, albeit with difficulty, uncut).

d. Before Shabbos it is permissible to say to a goy : "Why didn't you want last week to open the letters which came for me on Shabbos?"

We worship one G-d who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only G-d in this world and that is the G-d of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.

Shamgar, that topic is very very confusing to a Jew. To us ONE means ONE, not three. G-d is indivisible to a Jew, though we relate to him through a variety of names. A name is not a separate entity, it is another way of looking at the same infinite identity. I dont think we should argue this issue and if you see unity in three, that is very good.

muman613

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

We worship one G-d who has 3 personnas - the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. All One, and I believe to be the same and only G-d in this world and that is the G-d of Abraham, Moses, David and Israel.

 That is also a big problem, but whatever I dont make any judgements, I only try to follow what the Giants in Torah wrote and said, for example the Rambam, Ramban, etc. (also brought down in modern day books/lectures by Rabbis like Rav Kahane, Rabbi Mizrachi, etc.

 And qq- their are always sites/ people who try to say- no that Rabbi doesn't really mean that, or they would change their mind because of this or that. For example I even heard once that Buddism and the things they practice in India is not really idolatry   because they really recognize one power being behind it all (which even the big time idolaters of thousands of years ago all have said that). It was laughable.

[Lisa]

That is also a big problem,

For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts.  But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry.  From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

That is also a big problem,

For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts.  But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry.  From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.

 I have heard differently, both in books (including Rav Kahane ZTL HYD) and in lectures (like Rav Mizachi Shlita) and in shul. It is completly politically correct to say something like- ooh for Jews its idolatry and for non-Jews it is allowed (like I read in the past by ppl like Dr. Dan)- or maybe its just a Persian/ Askenazi/galut mentality that you guys (and girls) have. Maybe its just the Bukharians and Sefaradim who speak in the non-politically correct/ non-polite way, i dont know.
  You are right that Rabbis do not focus on these things, BUT at the same time officially and religiously Jews should not promote it, nor say its okay. I agree that at the wrong times not to bring it up, but still. For example Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom, throughtout his life would speak to people telling them tha ttheir beliefs are wrong, that they should recognize the 1 and only, indivisible, true G-d, and was even thrown into a burning furnice for this. Do you think he would ever say- ooh for me it is wrong to worship fire, or worship the sun, etc. but for you (for example the king) it is okay?

[Shamgar]

Thanks all for the discussion, I recieved an unintentional enlightenment out of your explanations. A couple years ago I worked for a  Jewish man in Altanta. I acted as his personal administrator/asistant as well as responsible for all new technology that was brought into his businesses.

He is a very successful businessman and a multi, multi millionaire. He had hundreds of people that worked for him. He had a lot of power but never exerted or influences anyone with it. I always had a hard time understanding that he was asking me to do something or start some initiative. I was used to the business world where things were very direct and intent was in your face.  He would make an idirect statement just as you stated in your post. Sometimes I wouldn't catch his intent and later on he would very patiently try another tact.

He is one of the smartest and caring men I have ever known and I grew to love and respect him very much. He taught me empathy and patience and clipped the sharp corners off my Type A personality.

[muman613]

That is also a big problem,

For Jews it is, which is why we don't anthropomorphize G-d, or divide Him up to parts.  But having grown up belonging to an Orthodox Synagogue, I have yet to hear of any rabbi saying what other religious beliefs are or not idolatry.  From my experience, rabbis don't focus on that kind of thing.

 I have heard differently, both in books (including Rav Kahane ZTL HYD) and in lectures (like Rav Mizachi Shlita) and in shul. It is completly politically correct to say something like- ooh for Jews its idolatry and for non-Jews it is allowed (like I read in the past by ppl like Dr. Dan)- or maybe its just a Persian/ Askenazi/galut mentality that you guys (and girls) have. Maybe its just the Bukharians and Sefaradim who speak in the non-politically correct/ non-polite way, i dont know.
  You are right that Rabbis do not focus on these things, BUT at the same time officially and religiously Jews should not promote it, nor say its okay. I agree that at the wrong times not to bring it up, but still. For example Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom, throughtout his life would speak to people telling them tha ttheir beliefs are wrong, that they should recognize the 1 and only, indivisible, true G-d, and was even thrown into a burning furnice for this. Do you think he would ever say- ooh for me it is wrong to worship fire, or worship the sun, etc. but for you (for example the king) it is okay?

Tzvi,

I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November. In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. By always going the route of rebuke and harsh justice we may not be able to make it to the goal. As my highschool buddy wrote in my yearbook, "Moderation in all things.... Except for vodka! " .

Every soul is on a different level and it is wise to customize the lesson to the student. I am trying to learn from this Shabbats parsha of Devarim how Moshe was able to rebuke the Children of Israel in a moderate way so as to teach them, not push them away. Here I quote from http://www.torah.org/learning/dvartorah/5758/devarim.html :

"MOSHE SPOKE TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL...AFTER HE HAD SMITTEN SICHON KING OF THE AMORITES, WHO DWELT IN CHESHBON, AND OG, THE KING OF BASHAN, WHO DWELT IN ASHTASROS AT EDREI" (Devarim 1:3,4)

The sages teach that here when Moshe "spoke" to the Jewish People, it was words of rebuke. Rebuke is most effective when it can be perceived as being sincere. The Torah emphasizes that Moshe rebuked the Jewish people _after_ he had smitten Sichon and Og. Moshe reasoned, that if he rebuked them before they entered at least _part_ of the land, they might wonder what their leader had against them and what good he had done for them since "it must be that he does not have the power to bring us into the land". Moshe therefore waited until after he had conquered part of the land before giving the necessary rebuke. (a paraphrasing of Rashi)

"Had the people felt that Moshe's rebuke was insincere and that he had ulterior motives, his words would have been ineffective. A person will only accept rebuke if he feels that the rebuker has his best interest in mind."

"We also see from here that timing is a major factor in rebuke. In many instances by waiting for an opportune time to deliver admonition, a person will be more successful than he would have been had he admonished earlier."

Let us learn from Hashems words which he gave to Moshe at the threshold of Eretz Yisroel. The world was created for us to rectify. May we find the words to bring about the true redemption.

muman613

[q_q_]

<snip>
Tzvi,

I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November. In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. <snip>

Muman, Stop playing games here and be honest.  (And by the way, this is a topic YOU brought up anyway, for no good reason)

I said already on it - after you brought it up.

RAMBAM said it is idolatry.
Rashi said it is not idolatry.

Tzvi, if you have some ideas about stopping christianity being promoted amongst gentiles, then maybe JTF isn't the place for those ideas.   You're certainly not speaking from the RAMBAM or Rashi.
Infact, the RAMBAM said that christianity and islam were to pave the way for the way for the messianic era by spreading belief in G-d.

[muman613]

<snip>
Tzvi,

I am completely with you and would be in agreement except for the fact that right here, right now, we are in a political battle. We dont want to offend people who are in positions to help us achieve our goal, which is to see Obama defeated this November. In order to achieve this we may be required to not tell-it-like-it-is, if you know what I mean. I believe that in the end the light of the Jewish nation will shine bright again, and attract the admiration of the other nations. <snip>

Muman, Stop playing games here and be honest.

I said already.

RAMBAM said it is idolatry.
Rashi said it is not idolatry.

Tzvi, if you have some ideas about stopping christianity being promoted amongst gentiles, then maybe JTF isn't the place for those ideas.   You're certainly not speaking from the RAMBAM or Rashi.
Infact, the RAMBAM said that christianity and islam were to pave the way for the way for the messianic era by spreading belief in G-d.

q_q_,

I am being honest here. The issue is not what the others believe. You are saying that there are two different answers to the question and it is a matter of personal choice to choose which finding to follow? I am willing to accomodate both findings and still I say that being in a place where divine imagery is displayed is wrong. I understand this finding and it is what my personal rabbis have taught.

As I was the one who brought this issue up, I request that we politely stop discussion on this topic. I am not being politically correct. I am just trying to avoid un-necessary machlokes, being conflict not for the sake of heaven.

Let there be peace amongst all of us. Our beliefs are flexible and rigid at the same time. We must learn where to apply flexibility and when to stand firm. It is good to point to Avraham as a role model. But are we truly ready to be thrown into the furnace? I most certainly am not.

muman613

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

This is getting ridiculous. My thread was about a few demented Jews in Israel who use Muslim Nazis as shabbat goyim, not what religions are and aren't idolatry and who should be allowed to learn Torah. Why are you guys changing the subject?

Is all that some of you can do when I point out that any Jew who brings Arab Nazis into their homes to care for their loved ones is sick and twisted is turn the discussion around into attacks on other faiths?

For the record, once more, I very much doubt that most Jews (even the brainwashed ones) approve of using Muslim Nazis to do Sabbath work, but those who do are deranged. I am not going to apologize for this.

[muman613]

This is getting ridiculous. My thread was about a few demented Jews in Israel who use Muslim Nazis as shabbat goyim, not what religions are and aren't idolatry and who should be allowed to learn Torah. Why are you guys changing the subject?

Is all that some of you can do when I point out that any Jew who brings Arab Nazis into their homes to care for their loved ones is sick and twisted is turn the discussion around into attacks on other faiths?

For the record, once more, I very much doubt that most Jews (even the brainwashed ones) approve of using Muslim Nazis to do Sabbath work, but those who do are deranged. I am not going to apologize for this.

CF,

You are right... This thread has gone way off topic.

To summarize my position : YES IT WAS WRONG TO EMPLOY ARABS IN THIS LINE OF WORK

I believe that there are Rabbis in Israel who are trying to create new Halachas which will ban the use of Arab labor. I support those Rabbis.

muman613

PS: I fail to see any attacks on other faiths, at least from my postings. If you feel hurt by my posting I most certainly apologize because that was not my intent. Sometimes I forget the audience I am writing for and say things which may not be received very well. Please accept my apology.

[Shamgar]

I am not offended by Jewish beliefs nor will I argue Jewish beliefs, I like to ask questions in this forum because I am inquisitive. I respect your beliefs and I believe most Jews respect reightouse Christian beliefs. 

So can we all be happy and allies now??

 

[Lisa]

Of course we can be happy and allies Shamgar.  I think you've been a great JTF'er. 

[muman613]

I am not offended by Jewish beliefs nor will I argue Jewish beliefs, I like to ask questions in this forum because I am inquisitive. I respect your beliefs and I believe most Jews respect reightouse Christian beliefs. 

So can we all be happy and allies now??

 

Shamgar,

Yes, I never felt anything besides love for my fellow JTFers...

Smiles to you

muman613

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow     

You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Tina Greco fan:  

http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170

[Ulli]

Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow     

You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Tina Greco fan:  

http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170

Tzvi is no Greco fan. C.F, this is obvious. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Tzvi is no Greco fan. C.F, this is obvious. 

Did you actually read his exact quote on the splinter forum?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Well obviously an idolater is able to judge what Halacha is, what acts Jews can and should not do on the Shabbat, and say what makes a Jew a good Jew or a self-hater. Of-course according to him Jews should break the Shabbat, just to get back at the muzzies, somehow     

You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Tina Greco fan:  

http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170

Tzvi is no Greco fan. C.F, this is obvious. 

 Of-course I am, I dont agree with cf, so that makes me a nazi, or grinko or whoever els's fan, just because I dont approve and dont stand by silently while the so-called ally of the Jews, cf rants and paints a bad picture agains't soo many Jews.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

CF,

You are right... This thread has gone way off topic.

To summarize my position : YES IT WAS WRONG TO EMPLOY ARABS IN THIS LINE OF WORK

I believe that there are Rabbis in Israel who are trying to create new Halachas which will ban the use of Arab labor. I support those Rabbis.

muman613

PS: I fail to see any attacks on other faiths, at least from my postings. If you feel hurt by my posting I most certainly apologize because that was not my intent. Sometimes I forget the audience I am writing for and say things which may not be received very well. Please accept my apology.

A few people used the i-word, and debated whether or not it is acceptable to teach Gentiles Torah. Neither were called for or at all relevant to my thread (which, btw, was merely a Yahoo News item I randomly saw yesterday). I did not mean for this thread to attack the practice of using shabbas goyim in principle (which is something I know and care nothing about anyway, besides to say that if Jews are going to do this, I really, truly hope they only choose decent, trustworthy Gentiles)--that was not the point at all, but only to attack the self-hating losers who employ Fakestinians as shabbas goyim.

I agree with Shlomo that this was a propaganda piece meant to stir up sympathy for Israeli Arab Nazis, but sadly this phenomenon does go on. I don't think for a minute most orthodox Jews in Israel do this or approve of it, but those who are are demented traitors.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

cf rants and paints a bad picture agains't soo many Jews.

Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.

But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?

Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! 

[RationalThought110]

Did you actually read his exact quote on the splinter forum?

Stop it.  Just because you have a problem with Tzvi does not mean you should be personally attacking him.  He didn't support her and you should stop making accusations against him. 

[RationalThought110]

Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.

But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?

Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! 

Do you have any proof he defended her? 

[muman613]

cf rants and paints a bad picture agains't soo many Jews.

Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.

But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?

Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! 

CF,

I dont approve of your attacking Tzvi in this fashion. I have apologized for bringing up a sensitive topic. Can you please try to judge more favorably?

muman613

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Learn to punctuate correctly, bro.

But to get to your point here--are you asserting that lots and lots of Israeli Jews are using Muslim Nazis as shabbas goyim? Sorry--I don't buy it. What is the evidence you have that this is a widely-accepted practice? Does your family hire Muslims or something?

Plus, you still didn't tell us what happened to your wings or explain why you were defending Tina Greco! 

Do you have any proof he defended her? 

 He thinks he does, but he cant read correctly, that telling people that they should not go to myspace/ yourface (you know the other site) with their pictures and information, and then be suprised and angry that nazi's could see them is the same as supporting nazi's.