JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. Dan on September 22, 2008, 11:59:57 AM
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but with a Sanhedrin. Is this righteous king, leader for life and only through familial lineage?
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That's the definition for monarchy. And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.
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so let's talk about it...
it's not an ideal form of govt for Jews to be ruled by one man...what makes sense is to have a change in leaders and chosen specially by the sanhedrin..
but then doesn't that type of theocracy sound like the way Iran does it?
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Muslims stole and perverted everything that came from Jewish people so of course the Muslims do it wrong and in an evil way. A Jewish monarchy would be different. It would be the genuine article.
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And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.
And now why is this? Are you just reacting on the basis of what our secular, Western culture has taught you, or do you have specific reasons for why you think this is bad (not that it's ever been tried)?
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And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.
And now why is this? Are you just reacting on the basis of what our secular, Western culture has taught you, or do you have specific reasons for why you think this is bad (not that it's ever been tried)?
First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.
Second, It is a fact of history that hereditary rule doesn't work well on the long term. One King may be good and capable leader, the next generation could turn out an absolute moron wicked incompetent.
Third, It is not an absolute requirement for the Jews to install a Monarch (while the Messiah lingers his arrival). In fact now that the Davidic line has disappeared, there is no legitimate contender for the throne anyway.
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Muslims stole and perverted everything that came from Jewish people so of course the Muslims do it wrong and in an evil way. A Jewish monarchy would be different. It would be the genuine article.
History proves otherwise. Most Heirs to the Throne of David were not following his footsteps. Even worse were the Hasmonai rulers, each generation more wicked and stupid than the preceding one. And I wouldn't like to use the usurper dynasties who ruled over the Kingdom of Israel after King Solomon...
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but then doesn't that type of theocracy sound like the way Iran does it?
I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with Iran. Judaism doesn't strive toward what Islam does, sunni or shia, so what does Iran have to do with this?
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First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.
This kind of attitude is the reason Israel's survival is stake. Far too many Israeli Jews have a secular, Westernized view of personal "rights" and entitlement. They would rather have the "right" to eat pork, kill their own unborn children, or work on the Sabbath than be safe from terrorism. But to answer this specific concern, Chaim has said before that a Jewish Torah state would not be a totalitarian regime. It would make sure basic moral principles of Judaism were followed (i.e. businesses would have to close for Shabbat, abortion would not be tolerated, etc.) and that's it.
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The Davidic line did not dissappear. Where do you get this from?
According to Torah, one might suggest that the period of the judges could be the model to strive for rather than monarchy. Once we started with kings, it was downhill after Solomon and fast. But in either case, a Sanhedrin is an absolute must. All successful governments are built on a balance of power. Israel's current governing system is completely lacking in this regard and this explains many of the country's political woes from its founding until now. It also helps to explain how the Israeli govt was able to become the tyrannical fascist (against Jews) entity that it is today.
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From what little I know, Jewish law leaves much flexibility in terms of determining a governing system for the nation.
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The Davidic line did not dissappear. Where do you get this from?
I agree. I have a friend (not on this forum) who is of the Davidic line.
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First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.
This kind of attitude is the reason Israel's survival is stake. Far too many Israeli Jews have a secular, Westernized view of personal "rights" and entitlement. They would rather have the "right" to eat pork, kill their own unborn children, or work on the Sabbath than be safe from terrorism. But to answer this specific concern, Chaim has said before that a Jewish Torah state would not be a totalitarian regime. It would make sure basic moral principles of Judaism were followed (i.e. businesses would have to close for Shabbat, abortion would not be tolerated, etc.) and that's it.
Most people are concerned more with petty things and immediate needs and completely lack strategic thinking. But you have a point, Kahanists have a very tough time to reassure Israelis that they are not planning to install a Jewish version of Iran.
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I specifically used the term 'disappeared' rather than 'died out'. Certainly there are living members of the Davidic line, but for no living Jew can it be proven beyond any doubt that he belongs to the Davidic line.
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First, I am secular and I would never agree to live under a religious rule. I would never give up willingly my civic rights and freedoms in favor of a theocratic, Monarchic or any other type of rule which takes away my vote.
This kind of attitude is the reason Israel's survival is stake. Far too many Israeli Jews have a secular, Westernized view of personal "rights" and entitlement. They would rather have the "right" to eat pork, kill their own unborn children, or work on the Sabbath than be safe from terrorism. But to answer this specific concern, Chaim has said before that a Jewish Torah state would not be a totalitarian regime. It would make sure basic moral principles of Judaism were followed (i.e. businesses would have to close for Shabbat, abortion would not be tolerated, etc.) and that's it.
Most people are concerned more with petty things and immediate needs and completely lack strategic thinking. But you have a point, Kahanists have a very tough time to reassure Israelis that they are not planning to install a Jewish version of Iran.
THe truth is you can't really "enforce" shabbat observance more than Israel already does to some extent. Roads have to be kept open because if a woman is pregnant or hatzalah gets a call, or somebody has to be rushed to the hospital driven by car, etc... these things are all permitted on Shabbat. The real key will be a non-self-hating Jewish education, which teaches Jewish belief, not in an atheist and mocking fashion but as a real living document (Torah, Tenakh), the way they would teach in an Orthodox school, whether people want to adopt the practices or not, at least giving over the Torah perspective to the youth. In personal and national sense. Over time people shown the beauty of Torah will take it up more. Indoctrinating people with "nakba" and that all religion is just another side of the same coin, (ie equating muslim terrorists with all other religions including, l'havdil, Judaism) and that the land we live on doesn't even belong to us, etc, only creates a more self hating and self destructive society with more and more leftists.
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Nobody wants a Jewish Iran. The idea behind a Torah state, at least according to Chaim, would be an absolute upholding of basic religious principles (i.e. commerce on Shabbat, abortion, the presence of pork in Israel, absolutely no compromise on terrorism, etc.). I don't think any of the above should be offensive to any Jew who is at least centrist.
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but then doesn't that type of theocracy sound like the way Iran does it?
I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with Iran. Judaism doesn't strive toward what Islam does, sunni or shia, so what does Iran have to do with this?
Iran is a theocratic state which uses it's mullahs to approve 1 or 2 leaders for the people to choose. IN Iran, however, this theocratic state is also a police type state...Will Israel, if it becomes a similar model govt with teh sanhedrin choosing two leaders and the people voting on the two, will they be living in a police state where in they can't do what they want to do in the privacy of their own home?
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Again I don't see what Iran has to do with it. Nobody aspires to be like a shiite mullah dictatorship. That wasn't what the Jewish kingdoms were (in what little time we actually had national sovereignty over the foreign occupying powers), and it's not what it will be. People use Iran as a boogey man of sorts. The Jewish idea is either a good one or a bad one. There's no sense in comparing it to an Islamic idea that sort of resembles it in one tiny fashion but is nothing alike.
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THe truth is you can't really "enforce" shabbat observance more than Israel already does to some extent. Roads have to be kept open because if a woman is pregnant or hatzalah gets a call, or somebody has to be rushed to the hospital driven by car, etc... these things are all permitted on Shabbat. The real key will be a non-self-hating Jewish education, which teaches Jewish belief, not in an atheist and mocking fashion but as a real living document (Torah, Tenakh), the way they would teach in an Orthodox school, whether people want to adopt the practices or not, at least giving over the Torah perspective to the youth. In personal and national sense. Over time people shown the beauty of Torah will take it up more. Indoctrinating people with "nakba" and that all religion is just another side of the same coin, (ie equating muslim terrorists with all other religions including, l'havdil, Judaism) and that the land we live on doesn't even belong to us, etc, only creates a more self hating and self destructive society with more and more leftists.
I think Chaim would agree to all of the above. I think the vast majority of religious Jews (i.e. excepting some of the more extreme haredim) would agree with it also. Chaim has never said that he wants to close all the roads or prevent people from attending to emergencies during Shabbat. He has said that he does think businesses should be required to close for Shabbat and that no pork should be tolerated in Israel, whatsoever--both of which I think are perfectly agreeable and fair. As far as I know, the concept of a modern Torah state does not include a "big brother" regime (i.e. the government monitoring what goes on in everyone's houses). Chaim would prefer, for instance, that Jews not own pets, but he would not make this a legal point, and I don't think any of the other voices who are seriously advocating a religious state would either.
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There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.
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The whole point of the Sanhedrin is that for 2000 years there has been no central Jewish religious authority on spiritual matters. This rebbe and that rebbe, and this interpretation and that, and more and more confusion...... and all the while no illusion of any national existence. Just fractionated communities. And more and more sheeplike behavior and defenselessness in the face of angry hoardes of antisemites (the curse of the galut).
JudeanonCapta's audio files in the Torah section explain some of this well - Rav Bar Chayim's shiur entitled "the breakdown of the halachic system." Being a rabbi requires courage. There will need to be enough immensely scholarly and righteous (middos included) chachamim with enough courage to reconstitute the Sanhedrin. At that point legally binding decisions can be made about how to apply the Torah law on the national level. Ie - how to run an army, an electrical grid, etc etc. All the modern concerns that must be approached within the framework of Jewish law and the scholarly interpretation of what the Torah permits and what it forbids. No more saying everyone is correct and valid and no decision can be made either way because I can't disagree with this one and can't disagree with that one and we can't be a nation until moschiach and G-d does it all for us. No more of that.
It's not about what an everyday Shlomo has in his possession or in his house or what he can do. It's about establishing the parameters to renew Jewish national existence in a faith based framework. And the Sanhedrin doesn't elect mouthpiece puppets like the shiite fanatics (again, I don't dignify this with a comparison to the nazi Iranian Muslim mullahs, but you keep insisting). The Sanhedrin is a balance of power with the executive branch, whether it's "nasi," king, set of judges, or what have you.
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There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.
Chaim has said that he would not try to do this.
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There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.
I don't think you could do that. It already happens in religious areas by request of the religious (ie, they have separate facilities supplied for them in addition to the mixed areas). There's no way you can impose this on a society unless a society arranged it themselves and people suddenly started going to separate areas. Any kind of change like this to societal fabric would only occur of its own volition over a long period of time.
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I don't think either that this is what Kahanists plan to Israel (But perhaps the Charedim do).
But lets discuss the biggest issue- it is the Judicial system. Chaim wants to replace the supreme court with the Sanhedrin. I don't really know what type of judicial system he proposes. I suppose it is some kind of a hybrid Torah-Secular legal system with Torah law prevailing in cases of conflict. This is going to be a real mess...
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With those concerned about a king having too much power, thus being corrupt. In the perfect Torah system it would not happen becuase the king himself has to follow the Torah, and if a King makes rulings that are agains't the Torah then his orders are not followed. A Jewish king is not above the law, and thus he would be subject to the rules as all of us, although he would be given certain privlidges (as do usual rulers have) and certain obligations. Also with the Sanhedrin it is a system of checks and balances where the King does give his word, but the Sanhedrin can step in and object or correct what is wrong and/or agains't the Torah.
In general this topic is very big (a Jewish government), but thier are different places to learn a little about it (for example Rav Kahane also includes a chaper on the government of Eretz Yisrael).
Also C.F.- No Haredim would not close roads on Shabb-t becuase roads are needed for ambulences (I guess, unless their is another system or something, but everyone holds by Pikuah Nefesh- the saving of a life overrides Shabb-t).
Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people. But maybe a transitionary type of government would maybe be a little reluctant not to cause a revolution or something, or not to push it too much where it would then be all or nothing. But definitly I believe that with time their would be a great Jewish nation and the Halacha would be enforced to a certain extent at least.
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Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people.
How? And by what legal precedent in Jewish law?
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Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people.
How? And by what legal precedent in Jewish law?
What do you mean? Dont you know how women are dressed at beaches? Obviously its not modest for Jewish women to be half naked in front of other men.
I dont know if their is an example from history, because in history it was assumed for a women to be dressed modestly and not show skin in front of other men. If a women would dress the way many dress and act today she would be concidered like a prostitute. (The Gemarah calls a lady who if fully dressed, but has a bell on her shoes- in order to draw attention from guys a prostitute- so you think a lady wearing a bikini in front of other men would be okay?)
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so you think a lady wearing a bikini in front of other men would be okay?)
I never said it was ok; you made an inappropriate inference. Of course it's not "ok," but that's besides the point isn't it?
You haven't answered how. And in terms of historical example, yes people in general were more tznius in their attire back then but what do you think happened when someone transgressed it? Or if there was an actual prostitute? Did they police it? And if so, what example from the gemara? And if so, how? Practically speaking how is it possible especially given a scenario when its so very common nowadays. It's not an exceptional case for women to dress immodestly, in general society. I just don't see how this can be policed. People have to be convinced and come to their own decisions for the better, but to police it? I'm skeptical.
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"It's not an exceptional case for women to dress immodestly, in general society."
That's why I said with time
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Zelhar, I can see your point. But I am gradually coming to a conclusion that in order to save Israel we need a Jewish Ahmadinejad. And I mean in in a good sense. We need someone absolutely crazy (in a good way, again) who would be willing to risk starting a nuclear war because he would be absolutely convinced that G-d would not allow Israel to perish. Rational leaders will not save us now. We need someone irrational (again, in a good sense). A total fanatic. Only then do we stand a chance.
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That's the definition for monarchy. And I hope we never have this form of government in Israel.
You already do. The Chief Justice of the Bagatz is as powerful as any monarch would be, perhaps more.
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I don't think either that this is what Kahanists plan to Israel (But perhaps the Charedim do).
But lets discuss the biggest issue- it is the Judicial system. Chaim wants to replace the supreme court with the Sanhedrin. I don't really know what type of judicial system he proposes. I suppose it is some kind of a hybrid Torah-Secular legal system with Torah law prevailing in cases of conflict. This is going to be a real mess...
The Bagatz today is the real mess. A permanent leftist oligarchy that rules ever aspect of Israeli life. Which also has the right to choose it's next member ensuring the permanent tyrannical rule of Israel by a leftist elite.
This is what you get when you reject the Torah, you become a slave.
Enjoy Tzippi Livni, by the way. She is a great example of what your secular culture produces.
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There are other issues other than just Education and Shabbat. For example, would a Kahanist government enforce dress code and separation of sexes at the beach ? I can assure you, people will rise up and revolt if anyone tried to revoke this sacred beloved right of theirs.
The fact that you have the nerve to call this "sacred" is quite revolting. Israeli girls dress like whores and you don't care about the honor of the jewish people. You just want your "sacred" right to behave like a pagan. Disgusting, Zellhar.
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Zelhar, I can see your point. But I am gradually coming to a conclusion that in order to save Israel we need a Jewish Ahmadinejad. And I mean in in a good sense. We need someone absolutely crazy (in a good way, again) who would be willing to risk starting a nuclear war because he would be absolutely convinced that G-d would not allow Israel to perish. Rational leaders will not save us now. We need someone irrational (again, in a good sense). A total fanatic. Only then do we stand a chance.
So sorry but I think irrationality is always a bad choice. If you meant for a a leader who can play an unpredictable zealot, than I agree sometimes there is a merit in such act, as long as it is a calculated act. I support a Jewish leadership to Israel because indeed the would stick to their principles whilst the secular leadership wouldn't, it has been proven too many times unfortunately. But I don't think Judaism encourages irrational behavior.
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@JudeaNonCapta:
The fact that you have the nerve to call this "sacred" is quite revolting. Israeli girls dress like whores and you don't care about the honor of the jewish people. You just want your "sacred" right to behave like a pagan. Disgusting, Zellhar.
I used a measure of cynicism, and I implied that this right is sacred to the secular public who loves attending the beaches in minimal dress; this is more sacred to some people, not just a few, than for example Jewish sovereignty in the Machpela, even the Temple mount. My personal opinion is that Israeli girls have every right to dress "like whores".
The Bagatz today is the real mess. A permanent leftist oligarchy that rules ever aspect of Israeli life. Which also has the right to choose it's next member ensuring the permanent tyrannical rule of Israel by a leftist elite.
I think that the Bagatz as we know it today should be canceled. I was raising an important point though. What would happen to the legal system if the Sanhedrin replaces the Bagatz- Is that mean that all the lawyers in Israel would lose their job and be replaced by Yeshiva guys ? When will the civic law be used and when will the Talmudic law be used ? And of course I don't think the Israeli public would agree to such act.
This is what you get when you reject the Torah, you become a slave.
I am not a slave. Israeli Jews have made very bad choices though, and they rip what they saw...
Enjoy Tzippi Livni, by the way. She is a great example of what your secular culture produces.
We are both on the same boat, and Livni is trying to sink us both.
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Muslims stole and perverted everything that came from Jewish people so of course the Muslims do it wrong and in an evil way. A Jewish monarchy would be different. It would be the genuine article.
History proves otherwise. Most Heirs to the Throne of David were not following his footsteps. Even worse were the Hasmonai rulers, each generation more wicked and stupid than the preceding one. And I wouldn't like to use the usurper dynasties who ruled over the Kingdom of Israel after King Solomon...
I am a republican right to the marrow of my bones and can't think of a more flawed form of government than a monarchy - I can't stand the concept of governing inheritance. I don't think that there is an alternative to democracy in a Greek or Roman style - only citizens who pay taxes, serve in the army can vote and serve. I think a president of Israel is an appropriate head of state.
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I used a measure of cynicism, and I implied that this right is sacred to the secular public who loves attending the beaches in minimal dress; this is more sacred to some people, not just a few, than for example Jewish sovereignty in the Machpela, even the Temple mount. My personal opinion is that Israeli girls have every right to dress "like whores".
Thank God that people who feel this way are having so few children. And we are having atleast 8 on average. We own the future.
I think that the Bagatz as we know it today should be canceled. I was raising an important point though. What would happen to the legal system if the Sanhedrin replaces the Bagatz- Is that mean that all the lawyers in Israel would lose their job and be replaced by Yeshiva guys ? When will the civic law be used and when will the Talmudic law be used ? And of course I don't think the Israeli public would agree to such act.
What the Israeli secular public would agree to is completely irrelevant. They will cease to be the majority in 50 years. Maybe even less.
Either way, the Israeli legal system is worse than any legal system in the western world. A system where you can be held without trial indefinitely, A system where you can be sued without your knowledge. A system that is nothing more than leftovers from the Ottoman and British Occupations. This system is rotting from the core. In a Jewish state, Jewish law prevails. There is no such thing as civic law. A Sanhedrin is simply a high court of Justice whose constitution is Torat Moshe. It rulings and laws ARE the civic laws.
As far as lawyers losing their jobs, I don't know why you think that is so terrible. But it's not true, anyway. They would just have to learn to play in a new ballpark. It will take some adjustment but I'm sure they will make it.
We are both on the same boat, and Livni is trying to sink us both.
True and she is able to do so because we are so divided as a people.
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I have to agree with Judeanoncapta here 100%. Virtually every single social problem in both America and Israel today exist because the majority of the publics of both nations have rejected G-d and the teachings of the Torah and Christian Bible in favor of the "enlightened" ideals of post-Renaissance Europe--namely, the false "rights" and entitlements of secular, humanistic philosophy. For the Christians who might be reading this, here is a verse from the N.T. that illustrates exactly what I intend; my apologies if this is at all troublesome to Jewish readers, but I still think the point of it can be had and agreed upon:
They exchanged G-d's truth for a lie and worshipped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.
I do think Zelhar might have intended his "sacred right to wear bikinis" comment to be taken tongue-in-cheek, but in any event, it's tragic that people do really feel that way. It's nothing less than abominable that Israelis seem to think that the "right" to wear bikinis in public is greater than the right to live and not be blown to pieces by modern-day Canaanite and Philistine savages. We have an Israeli Supreme Court that has all but imposed sharia on the Holy Land; can the secularists in this thread really say that a Torah king would be more oppressive than what we have now?
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A flexible practical leader like rabbi kahane, as oppose to a monarchy, would be more comfortable.. I don't think he would thought of going for a monarchy any time soon , and he wouldn't even have wanted to scare people with the idea. He said we are a sick people, and things have to be gradual, and he wouldn't want a civil war.
The way I see it. Since Israel is not meant to be a hebrew speaking portugal, it's a religious place and concept. If an oppressive jewish religious regime takes hold of it, enforcing halacha in public, then that's fine with me. I think anybody that doesn't like it should leave.(and if you like it a little bit then come as a tourist)
But rabbi kahane wouldn't have wanted such enforcement like that, not when it's not accepted.
note- the reality is changing with a religious majourity, rabbi kahane never really wrote about that reality. He only dealt with the immediate reality, unfortunately.
Now, although rabbi kahane didn't want enforcement if it would lead to civil war.. he would have started with a ban on intermarriage, and i'm sure some other halachic imperatives, in public.
Not total freedom to act against the torah in public.
Any religious jew, from non zionist to religious zionist, would say, that Israel is like the Kings palace, and one has to be on one's best behaviour there. Rabbi Kahane mentioned G-d's wrath, and we don't want that. Sinning in israel is extra bad and extra dangerous.
In primary school we had this really fanatical rabbi that would punish all of us for the sin of one person. And he would say -it's like a we're all in a boat and somebody starts drilling a hole in it- I think there's a gemara about that, to do with how G-d punishes us. The fact is that G-d punishes us like that. He also rewards us like that though.
Ezekiel Chapter 36, if I recall, (I read it once when I heard rabbi kahane quote from it in his speech to noachides). On my reading of it, and these aren't the verses of subject that rabbi kahane discussed, G-d put us in Galus because it's better that we sin in Galus than we sin in Israel, defiling the holy land.
Infact, some of the most extreme anti zionists take the position that Israel is SO holy, that it is too holy for regular religious jews. Only the greatest of the generation can live there!! Like the RAMBAM or Rashi or RAMBAN. Not even they themselves. Their argument was that the generation thrown out were far greater than us, and even they were thrown out.
Note- Judea in his program I think stated that the generation thrown out were worse than us, idolators and stuff.. something like that.. and they were still blessed with prophecy. (stated possible reason from shabbetai ben dov, as that they were normal and understood that we are a people in our land) I may have misremembered a bit but there was something like that. Hopefully he's reading!.
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"Thank G-d that people who feel this way are having so few children. And we are having atleast 8 on average. We own the future."
B"H, but at the same time we never know what they will throw at us next. Never underestimate the enemy. I think you know, that they know this reality and they do not like it (infact everything that happens till today is largly a result of that). They could import more goyim from Russia and from other places, G-d forbid.
Also believe me this could be a possibility expecially because America will go down completly very soon- that many of those reform, and not only that, but those who are not Jewish completly but who said they converted, or have a Jewish great great grandfather, or something like that would be let into Israel, because they- the secular entity knows that it will keep them in power longer. Infact I just learned that Ariel Sharon- is NOT a Jew becuase his mother had a fake "conversion". And then we wonder how someone who is the leader of Israel, how can they be soo cruel to the nation of Israel, like Amalik?
- And with the issue of inforcing Torah, after what I just wrote, i'm thinking about maybe that it should be done at a much quicker rate. Those who stay- are the best of the best. Those who leave- are those who cannot take it, and even better becuase they are more likly to be a liability, and only hurt the Nation of Israel.
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Also about beaches- a complete Jewish gov. would definitly seperate people.
How? And by what legal precedent in Jewish law?
What do you mean? Dont you know how women are dressed at beaches? Obviously its not modest for Jewish women to be half naked in front of other men.
I dont know if their is an example from history, because in history it was assumed for a women to be dressed modestly and not show skin in front of other men. If a women would dress the way many dress and act today she would be concidered like a prostitute. (The Gemarah calls a lady who if fully dressed, but has a bell on her shoes- in order to draw attention from guys a prostitute- so you think a lady wearing a bikini in front of other men would be okay?)
only if she isn't wearing a bell on her sandles it's fine by me :P :::D
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I think that in regards to modesty, male and female, it is something that has to be taught and change with time...it's not something one can force on people..look at what has happened Iran forcing women to wear what they wear? Drugs are everywhere..prostitution and promiscuous sex is everywhere!
Gd forbid that happen in Torah state...but I know the rabbis chosen for the San Hedrin would be thoughtful and compassionate enough to understand human nature...Chaim has the right idea with a gradual change in society..
Just the part about a monarchy..one single person for the rest of his life ruling over a nation...righteous or not...there are better options...I like the idea of a state that has Torah as law...but for the interpreters and usurpers of these laws...they can't be the type the scare people like myself and zelhar away..they can't be shas type Jews...They ahve to be people who understand human nature with proper compassion and tough love...
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"they can't be the type the scare people like myself and zelhar away..they can't be shas type Jews...They ahve to be people who understand human nature with proper compassion and tough love..."
Who do you want a real Rabbi or Reform? Or even many of the ones today- the generation of the dog, where they have to look back at their "masters"- the people, or the wealthy people, politicians, etc. and then say what they do, many times fearing about the consequences of what they say- they wont be popular, they will loose $, or even a good reason, but still not good enough- they will possibly turn people off by telling the truth.
The last sentence here you contradict. First you make it seem that you really want reform. Or someone who maybe says nice stories, etc. but no one serious, no one who would actually wake you up and by the influence make you change. And then you say tough love.
Anyway I dont think that it would really be a long time between for example their taking of power by religious people (who seriously love G-d) and people changing for the better. Becuase once religious people will take over, Torah will flow all over the land. Everyone will have greater exposure to Torah- whether its in school, in the community, in the army, all over. Today in Israel many of these things are greatly restricted, and heavily regulated. They purposly make it very difficult for Rabbis to speak to the public. For example to go to a high school, or to the army, its almost impossible.
I think that we need to expose more Jews to the Torah. And yes, even to the "fanatical Rabbis", becuase they are the ones who would and do actually make people change for the better. They awaken the soul that is in a slumber.
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But I don't think Judaism encourages irrational behavior.
What I mean by "irrational" is "irrational by secular standards." A secular person believes in compromise. He plans and calculates according to human reason. A religious Jew also uses reason. But his reason rests on G-d' promises. He believes that he has to do what the commandments demand of him. He will not compromise on important principles (he might pretend to do so, perhaps, for tactical reasons). He therefore will not allow himself to be blackmailed. And from a distance it might look like an irrational stance.
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are boys supposed to dress modestly all the time?
are shorts allowed?
I have seen young religious boys riding their bikes around in full black pants, jacket, hat garb and it seemed a bit unnatural.
When I was a kid, how could I go out and explore nature and have fun in black pants and a dress jacket? It seems a bit stilted.
Is this even authentic Judaism?
I think the debate is not whether authentic Judaism is correct, but whether these 'real rabbis' are interpreting Jewish standards of modesty correctly at all.
You think girls dressing trashy is bad? I agree...Many Jewish girls I've seen have styles that are atrocious and unclassy.
I prefer not to see women in very short items of clothing...(well I don't mind too much if they look good, but it makes me less attracted to them because they would probably not be a good type of pilegesh or wife material)
I personally prefer a girl who is somewhat modest (not wigs and head covering all the time) but maybe one who covers most of her legs.
However, you cannot legislate personal taste or minhag.
Minhag is not halacha is it?
Maybe it was in exile when communities wanted to remain separate...But I can understand an angry reaction to people who think those minhags should be eternal law in the land of Israel.
I won't say that they're idiots for dressing like that all the time...I respect some of the people who wear these outfits, certainly many are of great spiritual caliber...but I don't think I will ever change or see that as the correct way.
If someone can cite a clear, authoritative verse in early Judaism (which is the 'real Judaism') that says people should dress like this, that men should walk around in suits and hats all day and even hike Masada in them in 105 degree heat, I will listen. But until I hear something like this, I will reject it as absolute galus mentality, grade-A B.S.
So yes, I think compromise is in order. I think both sides have galus mentalities and both are wrong...The secularists got overly trashy from galus and the religious got overly modest.
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can the secularists in this thread really say that a Torah king would be more oppressive than what we have now?
Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)
9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.
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"they can't be the type the scare people like myself and zelhar away..they can't be shas type Jews...They ahve to be people who understand human nature with proper compassion and tough love..."
Who do you want a real Rabbi or Reform? Or even many of the ones today- the generation of the dog, where they have to look back at their "masters"- the people, or the wealthy people, politicians, etc. and then say what they do, many times fearing about the consequences of what they say- they wont be popular, they will loose $, or even a good reason, but still not good enough- they will possibly turn people off by telling the truth.
The last sentence here you contradict. First you make it seem that you really want reform. Or someone who maybe says nice stories, etc. but no one serious, no one who would actually wake you up and by the influence make you change. And then you say tough love.
Anyway I dont think that it would really be a long time between for example their taking of power by religious people (who seriously love G-d) and people changing for the better. Becuase once religious people will take over, Torah will flow all over the land. Everyone will have greater exposure to Torah- whether its in school, in the community, in the army, all over. Today in Israel many of these things are greatly restricted, and heavily regulated. They purposly make it very difficult for Rabbis to speak to the public. For example to go to a high school, or to the army, its almost impossible.
I think that we need to expose more Jews to the Torah. And yes, even to the "fanatical Rabbis", becuase they are the ones who would and do actually make people change for the better. They awaken the soul that is in a slumber.
Tzvi, if were a Rabbi, you would be the last person I would want..no offense..you don't understand human nature..you think the world is a bubble..you are a real fanatical Jew who might know books, but doesn't know world...
And absolutely no Reform rabbis either..
There are Orthodox and maybe certain Conservative Rabbis who get it...who know how to talk to people like me and Zelhar..These are the ones that belong high up.
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May be there is a need for a two-state solution- a religious Judea and a secular Israel.
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May be there is a need for a two-state solution- a religious Judea and a secular Israel.
no..maybe all Jews need to learn to suck it up and get along wtih eaach other and love one another...For the religious to see secular live the way they live and raise their fists is almost a type of jealousy..and for the secular to raise their fists at the religious at the way they try to impose good things on them is almost a type of jealousy.
NOBODY GETS IT!!!!! We are all brothers and sisters!!! >:(
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Zelhar, surely you are joking here. Otherwise, you just insulted the entire movement. Your saying that Kahanism would install an idol-worshipping king is nothing short of an abomination. I urge you to repent of such blasphemy.
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Zelhar, surely you are joking here. Otherwise, you just insulted the entire movement. Your saying that Kahanism would install an idol-worshipping king is nothing short of an abomination. I urge you to repent of such blasphemy.
My point is that if Kahanists were to install a hereditary rule, than it is a possible outcome to eventually have a wicked evil King like Menasseh, who was a legal heir to the throne of David.
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Zelhar, surely you are joking here. Otherwise, you just insulted the entire movement. Your saying that Kahanism would install an idol-worshipping king is nothing short of an abomination. I urge you to repent of such blasphemy.
My point is that if Kahanists were to install a hereditary rule, than it is a possible outcome to eventually have a wicked evil King like Menasseh, who was a legal heir to the throne of David.
That is why their is the Sanhedrin. And when the system is working correctly, then if their is a situation where the king goes agains't the Torah, then he is not listined? What is the problem? (and obviously at the time, the system didn't work correctly the way it should, or else the king would not have been followed if he was wicked).
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<snip>
That is why their is the Sanhedrin.
THERE
Any primary school child knows the difference between THERE and THEIR.
You get it wrong so frequently.
THERE <-- Point with your finger, Over There
THEIR <-- Belonging.
At least you spelt it right.. Thank G-d for small miracles. Or perhaps big miracles in this case.
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Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)
9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.
Zelhar please think for a minute. What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do? Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it. A lot like Manasseh huh? Do you really think he was following Torah? What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?
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<snip>
That is why their is the Sanhedrin.
THERE
Any primary school child knows the difference between THERE and THEIR.
You get it wrong so frequently.
THERE <-- Point with your finger, Over There
THEIR <-- Belonging.
At least you spelt it right.. Thank G-d for small miracles. Or perhaps big miracles in this case.
q_q_,
Your rebuke is a bit strong for such a small aveirah... It seems many people in this generation struggle with spelling errors. I have a good friend who runs a blog and I end up fixing his spelling and grammar errors.
muman613
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mum- "aveirah... "
:laugh: :P
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mum- "aveirah... "
:laugh: :P
:::D
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Monarchism is the last thing I would wan't for Israel.
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there already is "monarchism," only under a different name
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Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)
9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.
Zelhar please think for a minute. What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do? Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it. A lot like Manasseh huh? Do you really think he was following Torah? What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?
Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.
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Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)
9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.
Zelhar please think for a minute. What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do? Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it. A lot like Manasseh huh? Do you really think he was following Torah? What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?
Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.
zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?
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Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)
9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.
Zelhar please think for a minute. What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do? Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it. A lot like Manasseh huh? Do you really think he was following Torah? What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?
Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.
zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?
Probably true, but what he brings is true, and I have already answered his dilema in the posts- like I said before. During the time, the system wasn't functioning correctly. In the correct system that will be B"H one day. A wicked king, and the wrong orders, are NOT to be followed. A king is also obligated by the Torah.
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Here is an example to a 'Torah King': http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b21.htm#1
(2 Kings 21)
9 But they hearkened not; and Manasseh seduced them to do that which is evil more than did the nations, whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.
Zelhar please think for a minute. What does the secular anti-Torah government of Israel encourage the people to do? Or "seduce them" as another way of saying it. A lot like Manasseh huh? Do you really think he was following Torah? What makes him different in this passage from Olmert if he was encouraging idol worship or some other horrible sins (national suicide like Olmert encourages?) ?
Of course he wasn't following Torah, in fact he defied it completely and if I remeber correctly, had even made it illegal (which explains why a hidden Torah book was found at the days reign of his grandson Josiah). The difference is that Olmert can be overthrown by election, while with Menasseh they were stuck for 55 years.
zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?
I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.
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I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.
What's bikoret hamikra?
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zelhar, are you israeli and "taught tenach" by a non orthodox jew , in or when you were in school?
I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.
"Bikoret Hamikra"
Biblical criticism..
I asked because there do tend to be certain stories here and there in a pattern, that are familiar to secular israelis. I've heard them speak of a similar eposode to the one you mentioned. Kings of times when torah wasn't kept well. These must be a focal point for some reason.
My point is to point iut that people know things, not from a complete study, but elsewhere mentioning it or pointing them at one bit.
Like a reform minister quoting talmud.
That doesn't mean it's necessarily a wrong reading. But one should know that is how it has been "studied".
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I'm Israeli and my Tanach knowledge is mostly self-acquired. I went to a secular school and they teach there according to "Bikoret Hamikra", mainly.
What's bikoret hamikra?
now you would know, but google would have told you in a second
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Why would google tell me a different language
And also, maybe I wanted to hear from Zelhar because his answer wouldn't be a wikipedia article or a google site. It would be his own personal account based on his personal experience. You can't get that (experiential info) from a google search. Maybe I would have liked that.
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The story of Menasseh is taught in highschool but I used it as an example and I didn't bring up biblical criticism type of arguments (i.e that the source for the Priestly sources for the story were rebranding Menasseh as a kofer to excuse the religious reform that they were trying to install decades after his death...).
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We ask about Religious law being the law, and about religious enforcement in Israel, but why aren't we asking about the secular enforcement of their Kefira unto society?
I mean I just got reminded about the "Biblical study" they have in Israel- isn't that itself something that is imposing unto others (and bad becuase they are criticizing the Torah, while not allowing Rabbis to come speak to the people and at the same time allowing the xtian missionaries, jihadists and probably other cults come in and teach their kefira to the public- But a Rabbi coming to a high school- NOOO that is too much. Their must be a seperation between Shul and state.
Not only that, but what about the fact for example those people who would like, themselves and their children not being exposed to all the prostitues in the street. Or the billboards promoting products with immodesty, etc. Why should us and our children be made to pass by places with these things? At least with religious Coercion- the Boss is G-d Almighty. HE knows what is right and wrong, and thus commands it.
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I mean I just got reminded about the "Biblical study" they have in Israel- isn't that itself something that is imposing unto others
Yes, it's sick and evil and is one of the first and primary things that needs changing. They teach "torah" as if the real Torah is just some fairy tale that was cooked up.
And one can only wonder how to justify the existence of a place on the basis of a "fairy tale." No wonder they have stopped trying to justify it and instead have simply taken up the cause of the enemy instead.