JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DownwithIslam on February 27, 2009, 12:55:31 PM
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This is an article about a miracle that took place which saved the lives of Israeli soldiers. It really is a touching story which contradicts the Satmar's evil position on the zionists. Why would Rachel emeinu come to the aid of "Zionist soldiers" if they deserve to be punished as Satmar says? In any event, it's a truly touching story and a modern day miracle. The reason I am posting the article now is because they quoted Ovadia Yosef making a comment in praise of Smolmert. I will not attack a rabbi directly here so as not to upset Chaim but can someone explain to me the difference between that comment and those of a prostitute? Ovadia Yosef praises sMOLMERT who has been persecuting jews, spilling their blood, murdering Israeli Soldiers, torturing noam federman and more simply because Smolmert donated money to Ovadia Yosef's institution? Cmon, this just seems so wrong on all levels.
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef: A Beautiful, Young Rachel Saved IDF Soldiers
by Malkah Fleisher
(IsraelNN.com) A week after Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu confirmed the miracle story sweeping Israel – that the embodiment of the Matriarch Rachel saved the lives of soldiers in Gaza – Shas spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is now also declaring that the Jewish foremother came to the aid of the IDF.
A week ago, former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu revealed that despite his frail health, he had prayed three times at the tomb of the Matriarch Rachel prior to the Gaza war, telling the beloved wife of the Patriarch Jacob that she should beseech G-d to protect the Jews in the wake of an impending war.
Rabbi Eliyahu made the announcement after a story reached him of an old woman who reappeared before an IDF troop as they searched houses for Hamas terrorists. Appearing in a matter of moments in three separate buildings, the woman - who called herself Rachel - warned soldiers not to enter buildings which were later discovered to have been booby trapped.
Rabbi Yosef rendered a different rendition of the story in his weekly Saturday night sermon. He said that a beautiful young woman warned Jewish soldiers not to enter a Gaza building in which terrorists waited in ambush, whispering to the young men that her name was Rachel. Thanks to her warning, says the rabbi, the Jewish soldiers killed the terrorists inside.
Rabbi Yosef told his congregants that they should thank G-d for sending angels to save the Jewish people. He added words of praise for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who Rabbi Yosef said gives millions of shekels to Shas party yeshivas and Torah schools.
While Rabbi Yosef is the long-time spiritual guide of the largely Sefardic Shas religious party, Rabbi Eliyahu has openly expressed his support for the religious Zionist National Union party, which he says will do the best job supporting the Torah, the Jewish People, and the settlement of the Land of Israel.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129609
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POLITICS!
That is what this is about. In order to play the game of politics he needs to slap the back of those who gave his party the money it needed to support the yeshivas. This doesnt make the Rabbi evil, it makes him a good politician. Personally I dont think Rabbis should lower themselves by becoming politicians.
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POLITICS!
That is what this is about. In order to play the game of politics he needs to slap the back of those who gave his party the money it needed to support the yeshivas. This doesnt make the Rabbi evil, it makes him a good politician. Personally I dont think Rabbis should lower themselves by becoming politicians.
But Muman, a rabbi is not supposed to stoop low and do anything for a dollar. Rabbis should not be corrupt businessmen. It's one thing if Rabbi Yosef praised someone who happened to donate to his institution but who happened to be righteous. In this case, he is praising the sone yisrael Ehud "prostate" smolmert who has been butchering the jews of yesha non stop since being elected. Smolmert has been torturing the yesha jews both psychologically and physically since he was elected. Every single day he threatened to expel another settlement. How could anyone have kind words for smolmert at any price. Their is no excuse for this.
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At least Ovadia Yosef is being honest about receiving large cash sums from the Israeli establishment. Give him credit for that DownwithIslam!
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The story could be true.
I have discussed before a few monthes the first book of Samuel with an older friend of mine.
Some people believe, that this dead man who talked to Saul was not Samuel, but a demonic appearance.
But the bible is very clear here. There is written Samuel, so it was Samuel.
So the story of the soldiers and Rachel could be true too.
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While Rabbi Yosef is the long-time spiritual guide of the largely Sefardic Shas religious party, Rabbi Eliyahu has openly expressed his support for the religious Zionist National Union party, which he says will do the best job supporting the Torah, the Jewish People, and the settlement of the Land of Israel.
You missed this DownwithIslam. This speaks a thousand words.
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Some of you have to understand that when you are Chief Rabbi your comments are generally tempered by politics. Even Rav Eliyahu couldn't come out and say he was for Kahane back then even though he clearly supported him (Rav Eliyahu was Kahane's Rav).
The Shas run great yeshivas. I know many settlers who send their kids to those yeshivas. There is nothing wrong with giving thanks to those who help you.
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The Shas run great yeshivas.
I don't think that teaching next generations of Jewish children that "the Arabs are our brothers" and that it is halachically permissible to surrender Biblical land to Amalek counts as a "great yeshiva".
But anyway, the question would be why the Israeli government (especially far-left Labor and Kadima governments) has given such huge sums to Shas over the past several decades. Surely you would agree that that is a reasonable thing to wonder about and ask.
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Some of you have to understand that when you are Chief Rabbi your comments are generally tempered by politics.
I forgot to add--the opposite should be true. A Chief Rabbi, because of his huge and enormous position, can say many more things than an average rabbi or politician can in Israel. A Chief Rabbi could get away with saying "throw all the Arabs out" whereas anybody else would be jailed for "racist incitement" for saying that. The issue isn't whether ROY has the ability to say what he wants, but whether he has a monetary stake in holding the opinions that he does. It looks to me as though Yosef's constant towing of the Israeli government's line, and his longtime receipt of generous financial backing from it, just might be related. What do you think?
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Some of you have to understand that when you are Chief Rabbi your comments are generally tempered by politics.
I forgot to add--the opposite should be true. A Chief Rabbi, because of his huge and enormous position, can say many more things than an average rabbi or politician can in Israel. A Chief Rabbi could get away with saying "throw all the Arabs out" whereas anybody else would be jailed for "racist incitement" for saying that. The issue isn't whether ROY has the ability to say what he wants, but whether he has a monetary stake in holding the opinions that he does. It looks to me as though Yosef's constant towing of the Israeli government's line, and his longtime receipt of generous financial backing from it, just might be related. What do you think?
You are 100% correct about this Chaimfan. As chief Rabbi, ROY had the ability to save the entire jewish people from this ongoing slaughtering. He should of demanded that the arabs be thrown out. Instead, he comes out and expresses praise for a man who would of made hitler(yimach shmo) proud.
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And I might be mistaken, but didn't he once say Arafat was his friend (like around the time of Oslo)?
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Doing anything for a dollar is certainly not the way a rabbi should act. His comments should be based on the absolute truth, not dependent on who bribes him with gelt. If Mahmoud abbas gave a donation to him, would he say nice things about that hero as well?
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The Shas run great yeshivas.
I don't think that teaching next generations of Jewish children that "the Arabs are our brothers" and that it is halachically permissible to surrender Biblical land to Amalek counts as a "great yeshiva".
But anyway, the question would be why the Israeli government (especially far-left Labor and Kadima governments) has given such huge sums to Shas over the past several decades. Surely you would agree that that is a reasonable thing to wonder about and ask.
CF, they teach Torah not politics.
And why would they give large sums of money to Shas? Simple, Shas supports them on votes for some issues the leftists need to pass so in return they get their yeshivas funded. The age old scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. This is pure politics.
Some of you have to understand that when you are Chief Rabbi your comments are generally tempered by politics.
I forgot to add--the opposite should be true. A Chief Rabbi, because of his huge and enormous position, can say many more things than an average rabbi or politician can in Israel. A Chief Rabbi could get away with saying "throw all the Arabs out" whereas anybody else would be jailed for "racist incitement" for saying that. The issue isn't whether ROY has the ability to say what he wants, but whether he has a monetary stake in holding the opinions that he does. It looks to me as though Yosef's constant towing of the Israeli government's line, and his longtime receipt of generous financial backing from it, just might be related. What do you think?
Ideally yes, a Chief Rabbi should say what he wants but you have to understand that these Rabbis are voted by other Rabbis and approved by the government.
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Here is an article proving Ovadia Yosef enabled Oslo. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-67109445.html
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The Shas run great yeshivas.
I don't think that teaching next generations of Jewish children that "the Arabs are our brothers" and that it is halachically permissible to surrender Biblical land to Amalek counts as a "great yeshiva".
But anyway, the question would be why the Israeli government (especially far-left Labor and Kadima governments) has given such huge sums to Shas over the past several decades. Surely you would agree that that is a reasonable thing to wonder about and ask.
CF, they teach Torah not politics.
And why would they give large sums of money to Shas? Simple, Shas supports them on votes for some issues the leftists need to pass so in return they get their yeshivas funded. The age old scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. This is pure politics.
Some of you have to understand that when you are Chief Rabbi your comments are generally tempered by politics.
I forgot to add--the opposite should be true. A Chief Rabbi, because of his huge and enormous position, can say many more things than an average rabbi or politician can in Israel. A Chief Rabbi could get away with saying "throw all the Arabs out" whereas anybody else would be jailed for "racist incitement" for saying that. The issue isn't whether ROY has the ability to say what he wants, but whether he has a monetary stake in holding the opinions that he does. It looks to me as though Yosef's constant towing of the Israeli government's line, and his longtime receipt of generous financial backing from it, just might be related. What do you think?
Ideally yes, a Chief Rabbi should say what he wants but you have to understand that these Rabbis are voted by other Rabbis and approved by the government.
Nadav, a man needs to base his words on the truth, not on who gave him a few sheckels. Their is no excuse for this.
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The age old scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. This is pure politics.
So the holiest sages in Israel are plain and simple political wheeler-dealers? I don't think I could possibly add anything to your own admission about Shas and its leader.
Ideally yes, a Chief Rabbi should say what he wants but you have to understand that these Rabbis are voted by other Rabbis and approved by the government.
And once they are in that position they are virtually untouchable. By saying the word Yosef could command hundreds of not thousands, if not millions, of Israelis to rise up and overthrow the government right now. You notice that Muslim Nazi sheiks and imams in places like Egypt and Jordan are never afraid of their own governments, which are quite a bit nastier on average than Israel's.
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The Shas run great yeshivas.
I don't think that teaching next generations of Jewish children that "the Arabs are our brothers" and that it is halachically permissible to surrender Biblical land to Amalek counts as a "great yeshiva".
But anyway, the question would be why the Israeli government (especially far-left Labor and Kadima governments) has given such huge sums to Shas over the past several decades. Surely you would agree that that is a reasonable thing to wonder about and ask.
CF, they teach Torah not politics.
And why would they give large sums of money to Shas? Simple, Shas supports them on votes for some issues the leftists need to pass so in return they get their yeshivas funded. The age old scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. This is pure politics.
Some of you have to understand that when you are Chief Rabbi your comments are generally tempered by politics.
I forgot to add--the opposite should be true. A Chief Rabbi, because of his huge and enormous position, can say many more things than an average rabbi or politician can in Israel. A Chief Rabbi could get away with saying "throw all the Arabs out" whereas anybody else would be jailed for "racist incitement" for saying that. The issue isn't whether ROY has the ability to say what he wants, but whether he has a monetary stake in holding the opinions that he does. It looks to me as though Yosef's constant towing of the Israeli government's line, and his longtime receipt of generous financial backing from it, just might be related. What do you think?
Ideally yes, a Chief Rabbi should say what he wants but you have to understand that these Rabbis are voted by other Rabbis and approved by the government.
Nadav, a man needs to base his words on the truth, not on who gave him a few sheckels. Their is no excuse for this.
CF, DWI,
The Chief Rabbi doesn't vote on anything. He's giving thanks for the funding of yeshivas. Whats the problem here?
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You don't find it a wee bit coincidental that ROY's position on the land of Eretz Israel is completely identical to the Israeli government's, and that the yeshivas that he owns get the highest level of funding of any yeshivas?
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CF
All the Rabbis do not agree with each other. When Kahane was running Kach not a single one of the Torah parties in the Knesset agreed with him. In fact, there was very few Torah parties that agreed with each other! People have different interpretations of Torah. I obviously happen to disagree with Rav Ovadia Yosef on his stance of land for peace. For example, he approved the giving back of the Sinai to Egypt which the Israeli did after his ruling. Again, his interpretation of Torah, but I disagree completely.
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All the Rabbis do not agree with each other. When Kahane was running Kach not a single one of the Torah parties in the Knesset agreed with him
Which speaks volumes about the nature of the so-called "Torah parties".
I obviously happen to disagree with Rav Ovadia Yosef on his stance of land for peace. For example, he approved the giving back of the Sinai to Egypt which the Israeli did after his ruling. Again, his interpretation of Torah, but I disagree completely.
And Oslo, don't forget. You say that it's his intepretation of Torah, but what a coincidence that his "interpretations of Torah" have always completely coincided with what the Israeli government at the time was saying, and the level of funding his schools got subsequently. BTW, Sinai was not a case of "land for peace". The Egyptian front was completely quiet. There was total peace (peace by victory, that is) at the time that the Sinai was surrendered.
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CF
All the Rabbis do not agree with each other. When Kahane was running Kach not a single one of the Torah parties in the Knesset agreed with him. In fact, there was very few Torah parties that agreed with each other! People have different interpretations of Torah. I obviously happen to disagree with Rav Ovadia Yosef on his stance of land for peace. For example, he approved the giving back of the Sinai to Egypt which the Israeli did after his ruling. Again, his interpretation of Torah, but I disagree completely.
Absolutely true and a good point. I do recognize that Rabbi Yosef is an accomplished scholar, and on the merit of this, I respect his opinions.
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Are you saying his opinions are right?
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Uh oh. Here we go again with the fighting over R.O.Y.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about R.O.Y.
But I'll tell you what. If I ever hear of him coming to speak at a Synagogue, I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can come and hear him for themselves, and ask him questions. R.O.Y. was once actually a speaker/guest at this Sephardic Synagogue on the Upper East Side a while back. DownwithIslam, I'm sure you would love that.
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Yeah, if I could fly to New York I would do just that. Lisa, are Gentiles allowed in Sephardic Orthodox synagogues around where you live?
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Yeah, if I could fly to New York I would do just that. Lisa, are Gentiles allowed in Sefardic Orthodox synagogues around where you live?
Of course they are. Just put on a yarmulke when you go in.
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Never thought of that. I always thought that only actual Jews were supposed to wear the kippah.
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One last comment here that is worth making: it is not the case that the rabbinic community is in any way united behind R.O.Y. or agrees with his theology. Many Ravs are, even if they do not directly attack Yosef, going on record as holding different Torah interpretations than he has or even of not supporting the Shas party. The OP of this thread even mentioned this. Rav Eliyahu, a hugely influential and respected rabbi, is openly supporting the National Union Party as an alternative to Shas.
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Uh oh. Here we go again with the fighting over R.O.Y.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about R.O.Y.
But I'll tell you what. If I ever hear of him coming to speak at a Synagogue, I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can come and hear him for themselves, and ask him questions. R.O.Y. was once actually a speaker/guest at this Sefardic Synagogue on the Upper East Side a while back. DownwithIslam, I'm sure you would love that.
His son recently came to Queens, and he spoke to us. If one would see the genius of these men they wouldn't know where to run after speeking soo much nonsense here and other places.
For the record the garbage that is constantly spoken agains't the Rav is not true and worse then Lashon Hara. They're just picking to hate Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita and the Torah. I would also like to say to other's reading their statements not to take them seriously and not to take part in their punishments.
EDIT: Whoa! Let's tone down the heated rhetoric here.
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Uh oh. Here we go again with the fighting over R.O.Y.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about R.O.Y.
But I'll tell you what. If I ever hear of him coming to speak at a Synagogue, I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can come and hear him for themselves, and ask him questions. R.O.Y. was once actually a speaker/guest at this Sefardic Synagogue on the Upper East Side a while back. DownwithIslam, I'm sure you would love that.
His son recently came to Queens, and he spoke to us. If one would see the genius of these men they wouldn't know where to run after speeking soo much nonsense here and other places.
For the record the garbage that is constantly spoken agains't the Rav is not true and worse then Lashon Hara. They're just picking to hate Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita and the Torah. I would also like to say to other's reading their statements not to take them seriously and not to take part in their punishments.
EDIT: Whoa! Let's tone down the heated rhetoric here.
Why don't you explain the actions of a man who enabled oslo any better.
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Uh oh. Here we go again with the fighting over R.O.Y.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about R.O.Y.
But I'll tell you what. If I ever hear of him coming to speak at a Synagogue, I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can come and hear him for themselves, and ask him questions. R.O.Y. was once actually a speaker/guest at this Sefardic Synagogue on the Upper East Side a while back. DownwithIslam, I'm sure you would love that.
His son recently came to Queens, and he spoke to us. If one would see the genius of these men they wouldn't know where to run after speeking soo much nonsense here and other places.
For the record the garbage that is constantly spoken agains't the Rav is not true and worse then Lashon Hara. They're just picking to hate Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita and the Torah. I would also like to say to other's reading their statements not to take them seriously and not to take part in their punishments.
EDIT: Whoa! Let's tone down the heated rhetoric here.
I wonder what the rabbi would say when I question him about his illegal bribery scandals, shlomo ben iszri sitting in jail, aryeh deri, supporting oslo, enabling the destruction of the federman house, throwing chaim ben pesach out of israel, enabling the amona massacre etc........
Will he tell me that it was all ok because he pocketed a few sheckels for his institutions?
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Uh oh. Here we go again with the fighting over R.O.Y.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about R.O.Y.
But I'll tell you what. If I ever hear of him coming to speak at a Synagogue, I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can come and hear him for themselves, and ask him questions. R.O.Y. was once actually a speaker/guest at this Sefardic Synagogue on the Upper East Side a while back. DownwithIslam, I'm sure you would love that.
Lisa, I have to admit that I would never go to see him. I have never ever hurt a jew and in fact, I have helped many. ROY has trillions of gallons of jewish blood on his hands which he was willing to allow spilled simply because he could pocket gelt. He is not worthy of my presence. I am not the one who was sitting in the government enabling oslo.
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CF
All the Rabbis do not agree with each other. When Kahane was running Kach not a single one of the Torah parties in the Knesset agreed with him. In fact, there was very few Torah parties that agreed with each other! People have different interpretations of Torah. I obviously happen to disagree with Rav Ovadia Yosef on his stance of land for peace. For example, he approved the giving back of the Sinai to Egypt which the Israeli did after his ruling. Again, his interpretation of Torah, but I disagree completely.
Absolutely true and a good point. I do recognize that Rabbi Yosef is an accomplished scholar, and on the merit of this, I respect his opinions.
Exactly! In fact, I can say I cannot disagree with him on Torah since I cannot even compare my knowledge to such a Torah sage. I can however disagree with the political implications of such a ruling, for ex. giving back the Sinai to Egypt.
And Tzvi is right. G-d forbid a Jew should disrespect any Torah sage, the consequences won't be pretty.
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CF
All the Rabbis do not agree with each other. When Kahane was running Kach not a single one of the Torah parties in the Knesset agreed with him. In fact, there was very few Torah parties that agreed with each other! People have different interpretations of Torah. I obviously happen to disagree with Rav Ovadia Yosef on his stance of land for peace. For example, he approved the giving back of the Sinai to Egypt which the Israeli did after his ruling. Again, his interpretation of Torah, but I disagree completely.
Absolutely true and a good point. I do recognize that Rabbi Yosef is an accomplished scholar, and on the merit of this, I respect his opinions.
Exactly! In fact, I can say I cannot disagree with him on Torah since I cannot even compare my knowledge to such a Torah sage. I can however disagree with the political implications of such a ruling, for ex. giving back the Sinai to Egypt.
And Tzvi is right. G-d forbid a Jew should disrespect any Torah sage, the consequences won't be pretty.
So what is the price to be paid for enabling oslo and the slaughtering of jews that came along with it? Does someone get a pass and have his tuchis saved simply because he wrote seforim? Now I am not disrespecting anyone at all, I have been extra careful to say anything directly inflammatory.
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Uh oh. Here we go again with the fighting over R.O.Y.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about R.O.Y.
But I'll tell you what. If I ever hear of him coming to speak at a Synagogue, I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can come and hear him for themselves, and ask him questions. R.O.Y. was once actually a speaker/guest at this Sefardic Synagogue on the Upper East Side a while back. DownwithIslam, I'm sure you would love that.
His son recently came to Queens, and he spoke to us. If one would see the genius of these men they wouldn't know where to run after speeking soo much nonsense here and other places.
For the record the garbage that is constantly spoken agains't the Rav is not true and worse then Lashon Hara. They're just picking to hate Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita and the Torah. I would also like to say to other's reading their statements not to take them seriously and not to take part in their punishments.
EDIT: Whoa! Let's tone down the heated rhetoric here.
I wonder what the rabbi would say when I question him about his illegal bribery scandals, shlomo ben iszri sitting in jail, aryeh deri, supporting oslo, enabling the destruction of the federman house, throwing chaim ben pesach out of israel, enabling the amona massacre etc........
Will he tell me that it was all ok because he pocketed a few sheckels for his institutions?
Can you address the complaints I have raised in this post?
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What is really disgusting is that every time someone accurately points out the bloodsucking actions of certain religious figures, people dismiss the post instead of addressing the complaints. Telling someone that they will burn in hell for saying it only proves the complaints are valid and that answer are unable to be provided.
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Another gem from the shas party. It seems like they only exist to get jews killed while lining their pockets with kickbacks.
http://jta.org/news/article/2008/04/01/107834/benzirishas
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I wonder what the rabbi would say when I question him about his illegal bribery scandals, shlomo ben iszri sitting in jail, aryeh deri, supporting oslo, enabling the destruction of the federman house, throwing chaim ben pesach out of israel, enabling the amona massacre etc........
Will he tell me that it was all ok because he pocketed a few sheckels for his institutions?
1. Supporting Oslo.
Judaism says that we are obliged to save lives. Saving lives puts on hold ALL commanments (excluding idolatry, adultery and murder), including the commandment to settle the Land of Israel. It is now clear to us that "peace" agreements not save but, on the contrary, take lives of the Jews. But it became clear in late 90-ies with the increase of terror attacks. Before Oslo agreement, it was clear only to defense experts. Rabbi Ovadya Yosef is not a military/intelligence expert, neither he is a prophet. He made his decision based on the information he had. So Bolshevik establishment who poisoned all the country with the lies is to blame, not Rabbi Ovadya.
After the truth became clear, Rabbi Ovadya did never support further retreats. He ordered Shas MK's to vote against the withdrawal from Gaza.
2. Conviction of Deri and Ben Izri.
Who convicted them? Sodomist Bolshevik Israeli courts. I don't know whether the charges against them are a complete lie or exaggeration, but you should never trust Israeli courts when their desicions are against religious or nationalist people. The same courts detained 14-17 years old Israeli settler girls for several weeks without any charge.
3. Destruction of the Federman house, throwing Chaim ben Pesach out of Israel, enabling the Amona massacre..
Rabbi Ovadya is not an almighty tsar. Even if Shas party sits in a goverment, it doesn't mean it can do what it wishes. You must understand that Israel is ruled by Leftist Elite. So if they apply all their power to do something, it is very hard to stop them. Chaim ben Pesach is a very dangerous threat to them so even if the Interior minister had allowed him to enter Israel, they would find the way to block it (the easiest way is to appeal to Supreme Court, you now who are its judges).
I saw somebody said in this thread that Rabbi Ovadya should have ordred Israeli Jews to overthrow this corrupt ruling system. This is not right, becuase Israeli Jews wouldn't do it. Most of them are concerned with earing their living, etc. and they are afraid to struggle with the system which is ruthless to those who challenge it. You should understand that Israelis do not do all that rabbis say. Of course, there would be some heroes who'd follow it, but they would be a minority and the system surely kill them.
Halachic rule should take reality into account.
You can ask why we need Shas then?
Shas influences the system from within. Without Shas, they could have done much worse things. When Shas sees it can really do something, it does. For example, they prevented Livni to give half of Jerusalem to Arabs and caused her goverment to fall. Not to mention their support of Torah institutions.
Shas doesn't care how its actions look like, it cares about the results. And they have achieved much. That is why the Leftist establishment hates them.
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By the way, Israeli police is going to interrogate Avigdor Lieberman.
I disagree with him on sevreal serious issues. I also don't know whether he's really guilty and to what extent.
But I do notice that they started all this issue when his party has done well in elections, winning 15 mandates. Lieberman is also known to have the hard stance on so-called "Israeli Arabs" who now openly support Hamas. His views and charisma is inconvinient to the leftist establishment, that is why they opened this issue now, in order to force him to change his position or to send him to jail.
The same thing happened to Arye Deri 8 years ago. When the establishment sees a leader who has the potential to challenge them, they apply against him the law/court system where they are dictators and no one can oust them from there.
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Spectator, Ovadia Yosef just admitted that he supports Smolmert because Smolmert gave money to him. Israellnn mentioned it in the article I posted. I don't agree with anything you have posted. It was clear to everyone except those that want israel to be destroyed that giving away land does not lead to peace.
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Spectator, Ovadia Yosef just admitted that he supports Smolmert because Smolmert gave money to him. Israellnn mentioned it in the article I posted. I don't agree with anything you have posted. It was clear to everyone except those that want israel to be destroyed that giving away land does not lead to peace.
I agree with Spectator who basically said the same thing I said originally "POLITICS"...
The Rabbi did use Halachic opinion to determine that Pekui Nefesh was applicable to the situation, he has since reconsidered that position. To say that he appreciates the money which he recieved from Olmerts government doesn't make him a criminal. It is important in Judaism to be thankful to those who have supported you.
I do not share your condemnation of Rabbi Yosef.
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Spectator, Ovadia Yosef just admitted that he supports Smolmert because Smolmert gave money to him. Israellnn mentioned it in the article I posted. I don't agree with anything you have posted. It was clear to everyone except those that want israel to be destroyed that giving away land does not lead to peace.
I agree with Spectator who basically said the same thing I said originally "POLITICS"...
The Rabbi did use Halachic opinion to determine that Pekui Nefesh was applicable to the situation, he has since reconsidered that position. To say that he appreciates the money which he recieved from Olmerts government doesn't make him a criminal. It is important in Judaism to be thankful to those who have supported you.
I do not share your condemnation of Rabbi Yosef.
But Muman, have you not heard Chaim address him over and over again? Chaim pointed out much more eloquently than I ever could, all the evil that he has done. This is a man who had his shas puppet throw chaim ben pesach out of Israel on the same day that he met with Arafat. The defense of this evildoer makes no sense to me.
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Spectator, Ovadia Yosef just admitted that he supports Smolmert because Smolmert gave money to him. Israellnn mentioned it in the article I posted. I don't agree with anything you have posted. It was clear to everyone except those that want israel to be destroyed that giving away land does not lead to peace.
I agree with Spectator who basically said the same thing I said originally "POLITICS"...
The Rabbi did use Halachic opinion to determine that Pekui Nefesh was applicable to the situation, he has since reconsidered that position. To say that he appreciates the money which he recieved from Olmerts government doesn't make him a criminal. It is important in Judaism to be thankful to those who have supported you.
I do not share your condemnation of Rabbi Yosef.
But Muman, have you not heard Chaim address him over and over again? Chaim pointed out much more eloquently than I ever could, all the evil that he has done. This is a man who had his shas puppet throw chaim ben pesach out of Israel on the same day that he met with Arafat. The defense of this evildoer makes no sense to me.
Certainly that is an opinion which I object to. But my issue is that there are reasons which these things happen. It is called Politics and I object to the Rabbi being involved in politics. But there is much Jewish thought on respect of Torah Scholars. In this particular case I would rather err on the side of Jewish wisdom than on political ideas. Certainly the hardship and bitterness which results from any leaders decisions will be reckoned by the heavenly tribunal. In a democratic system the leaders are the responsibility of the voters. If the Rabbi represents the wishes of the Shas party and is democratically elected the only thing to do would be to oppose his policies.
My only objection is to using slurs and insults against a man who is recognized as a Torah scholar. I have heard reputable, zionist rabbis quote halacha which was decided by Rabbi Yosef and as a result I will suspend harsh judgement. If he is so evil he will be exposed.
Regarding the decision of Chaim in Israel do you refer to any particular statement he made on the matter? Or is it just that he has not stood up and demanded that Chaim be allowed into Israel? I suspect he was not able to affect the outcome of the decision because it was not politically acceptable.
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Spectator, Ovadia Yosef just admitted that he supports Smolmert because Smolmert gave money to him. Israellnn mentioned it in the article I posted. I don't agree with anything you have posted. It was clear to everyone except those that want israel to be destroyed that giving away land does not lead to peace.
I agree with Spectator who basically said the same thing I said originally "POLITICS"...
The Rabbi did use Halachic opinion to determine that Pekui Nefesh was applicable to the situation, he has since reconsidered that position. To say that he appreciates the money which he recieved from Olmerts government doesn't make him a criminal. It is important in Judaism to be thankful to those who have supported you.
I do not share your condemnation of Rabbi Yosef.
But Muman, have you not heard Chaim address him over and over again? Chaim pointed out much more eloquently than I ever could, all the evil that he has done. This is a man who had his shas puppet throw chaim ben pesach out of Israel on the same day that he met with Arafat. The defense of this evildoer makes no sense to me.
Certainly that is an opinion which I object to. But my issue is that there are reasons which these things happen. It is called Politics and I object to the Rabbi being involved in politics. But there is much Jewish thought on respect of Torah Scholars. In this particular case I would rather err on the side of Jewish wisdom than on political ideas. Certainly the hardship and bitterness which results from any leaders decisions will be reckoned by the heavenly tribunal. In a democratic system the leaders are the responsibility of the voters. If the Rabbi represents the wishes of the Shas party and is democratically elected the only thing to do would be to oppose his policies.
My only objection is to using slurs and insults against a man who is recognized as a Torah scholar. I have heard reputable, zionist rabbis quote halacha which was decided by Rabbi Yosef and as a result I will suspend harsh judgement. If he is so evil he will be exposed.
Regarding the decision of Chaim in Israel do you refer to any particular statement he made on the matter? Or is it just that he has not stood up and demanded that Chaim be allowed into Israel? I suspect he was not able to affect the outcome of the decision because it was not politically acceptable.
Muman, it's more than shas not doing anything to help Chaim. What happened was that the Shas interior minister threw Chaim ben pesach out of the country on the same day that the shas shmucks met arafat. The reason why Ovadia Yosef is to blame is because their is a shas council of torah sages which has to approve every action the party makes. Ovadia Yosef is the head of the council of torah sages so he is 1000% responsible for every evil thing shas has done including throwing chaim ben pesach out of israel. Their is no excuse for the evil actions of the party and its leaders.
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DWI, I think the best you can do is to visit Ovadia Yosef. I mean it.
Take a plane and go to Israel. Then you should make an appointment with him.
We have lots of members here from Israel, who will accommodate you during your visit. So your expenditures will be modest.
Tell him your oppinion and then listen to his response.
You are his brother in faith. I am shure he will agree to meet with you.
Then you should report your fellow Jews here what he has said and what his reasons were to do so.
:)
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DWI, I think the best you can do is to visit Ovadia Yosef. I mean it.
Take a plane and go to Israel. Then you should make an appointment with him.
We have lots of members here from Israel, who will accommodate you during your visit. So your expenditures will be modest.
Tell him your oppinion and then listen to his response.
You are his brother in faith. I am shure he will agree to meet with you.
Then you should report your fellow Jews here what he has said and what his reasons were to do so.
:)
I know simple jews who I can learn more from than him.
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DWI, I think the best you can do is to visit Ovadia Yosef. I mean it.
Take a plane and go to Israel. Then you should make an appointment with him.
We have lots of members here from Israel, who will accommodate you during your visit. So your expenditures will be modest.
Tell him your oppinion and then listen to his response.
You are his brother in faith. I am shure he will agree to meet with you.
Then you should report your fellow Jews here what he has said and what his reasons were to do so.
:)
I know simple jews who I can learn more from than him.
I think it is not about learning from him.
It is about talking things out between two brothers.
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DWI, I think the best you can do is to visit Ovadia Yosef. I mean it.
Take a plane and go to Israel. Then you should make an appointment with him.
We have lots of members here from Israel, who will accommodate you during your visit. So your expenditures will be modest.
Tell him your oppinion and then listen to his response.
You are his brother in faith. I am shure he will agree to meet with you.
Then you should report your fellow Jews here what he has said and what his reasons were to do so.
:)
I know simple jews who I can learn more from than him.
I think it is not about learning from him.
It is about talking things out between two brothers.
Pheasant, how could I face a person who enabled the slaughtering of AT LEAST 1800 jews? That is the bare minimum figure due to oslo. It would not of passed without him. He is responsible for much more death too but the figure is at least 1800. I would think about all the parents who have an empty seat at their shabbos table because this guy enabled the slaughtering of their son. I could never face him.
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So the tablecloth is cut already.
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DWI, I think the best you can do is to visit Ovadia Yosef. I mean it.
Take a plane and go to Israel. Then you should make an appointment with him.
We have lots of members here from Israel, who will accommodate you during your visit. So your expenditures will be modest.
Tell him your oppinion and then listen to his response.
You are his brother in faith. I am shure he will agree to meet with you.
Then you should report your fellow Jews here what he has said and what his reasons were to do so.
:)
I know simple jews who I can learn more from than him.
I think it is not about learning from him.
It is about talking things out between two brothers.
Pheasant, how could I face a person who enabled the slaughtering of AT LEAST 1800 jews? That is the bare minimum figure due to oslo. It would not of passed without him. He is responsible for much more death too but the figure is at least 1800. I would think about all the parents who have an empty seat at their shabbos table because this guy enabled the slaughtering of their son. I could never face him.
DWI, your problem is you try to act holier than Hashem. I don't understand your zealotry.
First of all, I assume you are not even religious correct? I can't imagine a pious Jew having this kind of nerve. You don't follow the mitzvots, let alone keep Shabbos. I want to understand how someone coming from this kind of background even has the nerve to speak such lashon hara against this great sage. If you want to dissect any Rav's opinion based on Torah you must first be religious (obviously), be an educated Jew, and be completely immersed in Torah in order to retort any Rabbinical opinion. It's like a reserve soldier telling a General how to run things, or an intern telling Bill Gates how he should run his business. It's way out of your league. Save yourself the embarrassment.
This is all I'll say on the matter because your actions have made it clear you don't want this argument to end. I won't waste my time going back and fourth. Besides, Tzvi and Muman have addressed this more eloquently than I ever could, so take note of their posts.
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DWI, I think the best you can do is to visit Ovadia Yosef. I mean it.
Take a plane and go to Israel. Then you should make an appointment with him.
We have lots of members here from Israel, who will accommodate you during your visit. So your expenditures will be modest.
Tell him your oppinion and then listen to his response.
You are his brother in faith. I am shure he will agree to meet with you.
Then you should report your fellow Jews here what he has said and what his reasons were to do so.
:)
I know simple jews who I can learn more from than him.
I think it is not about learning from him.
It is about talking things out between two brothers.
Pheasant, how could I face a person who enabled the slaughtering of AT LEAST 1800 jews? That is the bare minimum figure due to oslo. It would not of passed without him. He is responsible for much more death too but the figure is at least 1800. I would think about all the parents who have an empty seat at their shabbos table because this guy enabled the slaughtering of their son. I could never face him.
DWI, your problem is you try to act holier than Hashem. I don't understand your zealotry.
First of all, I assume you are not even religious correct? I can't imagine a pious Jew having this kind of nerve. You don't follow the mitzvots, let alone keep Shabbos. I want to understand how someone coming from this kind of background even has the nerve to speak such lashon hara against this great sage. If you want to dissect any Rav's opinion based on Torah you must first be religious (obviously), be an educated Jew, and be completely immersed in Torah in order to retort any Rabbinical opinion. It's like a reserve soldier telling a General how to run things, or an intern telling Bill Gates how he should run his business. It's way out of your league. Save yourself the embarrassment.
This is all I'll say on the matter because your actions have made it clear you don't want this argument to end. I won't waste my time going back and fourth. Besides, Tzvi and Muman have addressed this more eloquently than I ever could, so take note of their posts.
It doesn't take a mathmetician to know that 2 + 2 = 4
Any rabbi who throws has Chaim ben pesach thrown out of israel on the same day that he orders a meeting with arafat certainly needs to be questioned harshly. Their are many people who wear the title "rabbi" as a way to escape scrutiny.
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I am not observant. I am poorly versed in Torah. So perhaps my opinion on this matter will be dismissed. But I will offer it for consideration anyway.
Let's assume we have two acknowledged Torah sages who often differ on what the proper Torah response should be regarding matters of political decisions the Israeli government must make.
For convenience we will call Torah sage A, Rav Kahane. We will call Torah sage B, Rav Yosef.
With the benefit of time and hindsight we come to realize that Rav Kahane's interpretation of Torah Law - in regards to political decisions - proves to be more beneficial to Israel and the Jewish People than Rav Yosef's. Indeed, over the course of time we discern a pattern that Rav Yosef's political decisions appear to oft times ultimately be detrimental to Israel's well being. We might even suspect that Rav Yosef's interpretation of Torah has been corrupted by material considerations and expediencies.
It is easy to see how an impartial observer could conclude that although Rav Yosef's knowledge of Torah must be respected, his political decisions which are supposedly based on that knowledge might not deserve the same respect.
At least that's the opinion of this non-observant Jew. I understand why it might not carry any weight with my observant brothers and sisters here.
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I am not observant. I am poorly versed in Torah. So perhaps my opinion on this matter will be dismissed. But I will offer it for consideration anyway.
Let's assume we have two acknowledged Torah sages who often differ on what the proper Torah response should be regarding matters of political decisions the Israeli government must make.
For convenience we will call Torah sage A, Rav Kahane. We will call Torah sage B, Rav Yosef.
With the benefit of time and hindsight we come to realize that Rav Kahane's interpretation of Torah Law - in regards to political decisions - proves to be more beneficial to Israel and the Jewish People than Rav Yosef's. Indeed, over the course of time we discern a pattern that Rav Yosef's political decisions appear to oft times ultimately be detrimental to Israel's well being. We might even suspect that Rav Yosef's interpretation of Torah has been corrupted by material considerations and expediencies.
It is easy to see how an impartial observer could conclude that although Rav Yosef's knowledge of Torah must be respected, his political decisions which are supposedly based on that knowledge might not deserve the same respect.
At least that's the opinion of this non-observant Jew. I understand why it might not carry any weight with my observant brothers and sisters here.
No one is asking you or anyone else to accept the halahic decision of every single Rav. All their is asked is for their to be some respect. And 2- Even what many think is the Halahic decision of this particular Rav is also NOT true and is a twist of what the Rav really stands for.
Just look at the evil interpretation and spinn of an article that has a Rav mentioning thanks (Hakarat Hatov) to someone who did something good (and we as Jews have to give credit, thanks and encouragement to all for the good that they do no matter how and what other bad things they do).
The slanderers went from a Rabbi saying thanks for supporting Yeshivot, to making it as is the Rav now supports Olmert to the be king of Israel or something.
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Okay guys, this is getting out of control here. I was very careful to avoid any kind of insults--I just said what is public fact--that it seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government and that he receives enormous funding for his yeshivas whenever he makes a halachic ruling that supports the government position. Why do ROY and his party, Shas, receive so much more funding for their yeshivas than HaRav Cook, HaRav Dov Lior, HaRav Eliyahu, etc.? Do you really all think that it is unreasonable to surmise that because the three latter-mentioned Rebbes do NOT consistently tow the Bolshevik government line, they don't get the funding that Shas does?
I am very familiar with the rules of the forum. It's against the rules to INSULT Torah scholars, not to question their decisions and motives. Somebody said that it is impermissible to even disagree with the Torah interpretation of a "Torah Scholar". That's absolutely ridiculous and borderline idolatrous (I know full well Judaism does not support deifying anybody) and even as a Gentile I know that that is not actually found in Judaism. Moreover, the person who made that statement has often made attacks on the Catholic definition of papal authority, which is little different than the way he defined the authority of a Torah Scholar.
Some people said that it couldn't possibly be known that land-for-peace endangers Jewish lives back in the early 90s. Gimme a break guys. After Egypt handed over the Sinai, the PLO began launching lethal attacks out of Lebanon and started the Second Intifada. It was always obvious. How can a brilliant Torah genius not have understanding of the realities of life in Israel, particularly if you all say that he has to be a shrewd political pragmatist in order to survive in the Holy Land? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth!
EDIT: It seems oddly coincidental that the Shas interior minister wanted Chaim kept out of Israel considering that Chaim's main target audience, at that time, would have been ultra-religious Sephardi youth who traditionally follow Shas by default. Hmmm, I wonder if Shas feared that Chaim would get huge and take all of their votes.
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It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government
In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
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But since then he has continued to voice support for the Israeli government in general and still to this day believes in land-for-peace in theory, if he is "really convinced" it will save Jewish lives. He has never once taken that back. How can we forget when ROY, a year ago, called Shimon Peres "a friend of Torah Judaism" shortly before receiving a very generous check for his yeshivas?
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ROY is not above selling voting power for shekels and meddling in all sort of political activities. Therefore he is not above criticism when it comes to his politics and vote selling. I think he is a terrible political leader. He is not just a spiritual leader, he is The sole and final decider in his party on every important issue.
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It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government
In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.
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It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government
In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.
Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.
Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:
Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
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It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government
In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.
Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.
Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:
Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
If only he was consistent with this opinion.
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What I like about Rabbi Yosef is his lack of political correctness.
In March 2000, shortly before Purim, Rabbi Yosef attacked then-Education Minister and Meretz Party chairman Yossi Sarid. Yosef referred to Sarid as "the 'Dark Side", a term synonymous in Jewish parlance with the demonic realm of existence. Rabbi Yosef continued, saying, "He is Satan, may his name and memory be erased. How long do we have to suffer this wicked man? G-d will extirpate him, the way He will extirpate Amalek. Cursed is Haman, cursed is Yossi Sarid. He will be uprooted from the seed of Israel. Just as revenge was wrought on Haman, so it will be wrought on him." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
(Yossi Sarid was then the leader of the pro-Arab and pro-gay/lesbian extremist Meretz party)
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It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government
In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.
Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.
Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:
Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
If only he was consistent with this opinion.
He is, the only reason you think otherwise is because of the great magnitude of lashon hara that has been spread again and again agains't him (making him look like a leftist). When some repeat and repeat something wrong and not only the wrong things but also the twists and spinns that they pull, people begin to accept and believe what is said. (That is how propoganda works).
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It seems oddly coincidental that ROY's positions are always identical to those of the Israeli government
In March 2005, Rabbi Yosef made comments that have been interpreted as praying for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's death: "Let G-d strike him down... he is torturing the people of Israel... The Holy One wants us all to return to the Torah, and then he will strike him with one blow and he will die. He will sleep and never wake up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
Incidentally, Shas was left out of Sharon's coalition. Sharon chose the anti-religious 'Shinoy' (=Change) party over Shas.
Rabbi Yosef said that in the context of his strong opposition to the Sharon's plan to uproot the Jews from Gaza.
Moreover, Shas was in Barak's goverment when Rabbi Yosef said the following:
Rabbi Yosef also generated controversy in 2000 when he declared that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has "no sense" because he is trying to make peace with the Palestinians, which he likened to another senseless act, attempting to make peace between a human and an animal such as a "snake", which is motivated by instincts that cannot be overridden, asking, "Will we make peace with a snake?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
If only he was consistent with this opinion.
He is, the only reason you think otherwise is because of the great magnitude of lashon hara that has been spread again and again agains't him (making him look like a leftist). When some repeat and repeat something wrong and not only the wrong things but also the twists and spinns that they pull, people begin to accept and believe what is said. (That is how propoganda works).
He is consistent in his opinion that surrendering Israel piecemeal is acceptable if it keeps the Arabs pacified for a while. That is why he supported surrendering the Sinai, the Oslo accords, the Hebron accords, and the Wye plantation accord.
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Tzvi, do you personally think it's OK to give up Jewish land for so-called Peace with the Arabs?
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What I like about Rabbi Yosef is his lack of political correctness.
In March 2000, shortly before Purim, Rabbi Yosef attacked then-Education Minister and Meretz Party chairman Yossi Sarid. Yosef referred to Sarid as "the 'Dark Side", a term synonymous in Jewish parlance with the demonic realm of existence. Rabbi Yosef continued, saying, "He is Satan, may his name and memory be erased. How long do we have to suffer this wicked man? G-d will extirpate him, the way He will extirpate Amalek. Cursed is Haman, cursed is Yossi Sarid. He will be uprooted from the seed of Israel. Just as revenge was wrought on Haman, so it will be wrought on him." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef
(Yossi Sarid was then the leader of the pro-Arab and pro-gay/lesbian extremist Meretz party)
But then he turned around and called Shimon Peres (y"s), a ferociously pro-faggot leader, a huge friend of Torah Judaism. My guess is that Sarid wanted to cut subsidies to Shas institutions.
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Tzvi, do you personally think it's OK to give up Jewish land for so-called Peace with the Arabs?
NO.
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Tzvi, her question to you was completely fair. Your getting angry at her is uncalled for. You have often said that "the anti-Zionist halachic position is a perfectly legitimate one" and defended and complimented the Satmar sect. That, combined with your posts in this thread, are legitimate basis to make someone wonder.
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Tzvi, her question to you was completely fair. Your getting angry at her is uncalled for. You have often said that "the anti-Zionist halachic position is a perfectly legitimate one" and defended and complimented the Satmar sect. That, combined with your posts in this thread, are legitimate basis to make someone wonder.
I wasn't angry actually. And how in the world would you know that?
Once again you do not know what you are talking about, I dont know how your brain functions, but by seeing your posts I would like to recommend you to stay out of any Jewish related subjects and topics, you take everything the wrong way.
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"He is consistent in his opinion that surrendering Israel piecemeal is acceptable if it keeps the Arabs pacified for a while. That is why he supported surrendering the Sinai, the Oslo accords, the Hebron accords, and the Wye plantation accord. "
If Rav Yosef did offer his support for the political decisions mentioned above, it seems to me he has some explaining to do.
One would assume that members of Shas (and people outside of Shas) asked the Rav how he justified his support for these political accords.
I'm certain Rav Yosef didn't say 'these decisions don't exactly jibe with what the Torah would advise us to do, but we need funding, so let's go for it anyway'.
He must have given Torah inspired reasoning which made his support for these actions permissable.
Does the Torah support 'land for peace' under certain circumstances ? Or does it rule it out entirely ? I don't know with any certainty.
Since I'm ignorant about these matters I wouldn't feel qualified to comment about Rav Yosef's reasoning, interpretations or justifications. But I'd still like to hear what they were.
The bottom line question here is - does Rav Yosef support political actions that seemingly contradict Torah when it benefits Shas ?
Some might consider it disrespectful to ask such a question, but I think it needs to be asked. And honestly answered.
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I also think it's a fair question to ask.
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And who can honestly answer that question other than the Rav himself? NO ONE!
Don't argue just for the sake of arguing. There needs to be some substance. Which is why this thread went down the toilet many pages ago.
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Nadav has a point about where this thread is going. So DownwithIslam, why not try and find out when R.O.Y. might be speaking in New York, then go and see him? I'm sure he'll be happy to take questions. This way, you can have closure, when he answers your questions. The the thing is, right now, this stuff seems to be eating away at you.
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Lisa, he had every right to post a news item about ROY. He is one of the biggest rabbis in Israel and his name came up again. He has a high opinion of Olmert, and Shimon Peres, who both happen to be in favor of funding Shas at a high level. That's fair to discuss.
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Lisa, he had every right to post a news item about ROY. He is one of the biggest rabbis in Israel and his name came up again. He has a high opinion of Olmert, and Shimon Peres, who both happen to be in favor of funding Shas at a high level. That's fair to discuss.
I agree, C.F. But since DownwithIslam feels so strongly about R.O.Y., I think it would be a good idea for him try and see the Rabbi, and to find out what ROY has to say.
Because as it is now, these types of threads just turn into arguments between you and DWI, on the one hand, and the more observant Jews. We never end up changing each others minds, and the threads just end up getting locked. So that's why I'm saying DownwithIslam should take some action by trying to meet with ROY in person.
If I hear of ROY coming to speak in Manhattan, I'll let you all know.
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Yeah, I wish he would change his mind and go see ROY and tell him what his concerns are. (DownwithIslam I mean.) Being in California I can't readily do that, but certainly would.