JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ on December 03, 2009, 11:41:06 AM
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I want to clear some concepts here. According to information i researched over the internet... The Haredims seem to be very close to Jewish belief, and they seem more pro-active. (In a way that they respond to injustice meted out on the jews). Given that Kahanists are not very much allowed to put their philosophy into actions in Israel today. Haredims do seem to bring some hope.
Unfortunately there is lot of propoganda on the internet. Read through some sources that Haredims are not exactly Zionists. Also that haredims are disconnected from the local israeli populace (is this true?). But they would do anything to protect jewish life, something that should be done by all means in Israel.
So where do Haredims and Kahanists stand when it comes to national key issues?
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I want to clear some concepts here. According to information i researched over the internet... The Haredims seem to be very close to Jewish belief, and they seem more pro-active. (In a way that they respond to injustice meted out on the jews). Given that Kahanists are not very much allowed to put their philosophy into actions in Israel today. Haredims do seem to bring some hope.
Unfortunately there is lot of propoganda on the internet. Read through some sources that Haredims are not exactly Zionists. Also that haredims are disconnected from the local israeli populace (is this true?). But they would do anything to protect jewish life, something that should be done by all means in Israel.
So where do Haredims and Kahanists stand when it comes to national key issues?
Ir really depends on who you talk to. There are levels of charedism. For the most part, the ones I know are pretty much Zionists, too. I mean all (normal) Jews want Israel to prosper and other Jews to be happy.
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Rabbi Kahane always said that "the Haredim are irrelevant!". And shame to tell, this is basically true!
Witness the 2005 Hitnatkut: apart from a handful of Lubavitchers, not one Haredi took part in the demonstrations against the dastardly Gaza Deportation of their fellow Jews.
Had even a few % of the Haredim with their vast numbers taken part, it would have blocked the whole deportation.
There were no calls at all by Haredi leaders, politicians, rebbes, ravs or roshei yeshivahs to demonstrate. And the Haredi parties kept Sharon's government afloat during it, in exchange for $$$!
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בס"ד
Rabbi Ya'akof Yosef Shalita, Rabbi Morechai Eliyahu Shalita HaShem Yishmerehu V'Yechayehu, Rabbi Dov Wolpe Shalita openly support Kahanism and admire Rabbi Kahana.
Also there is a large group called Charedim Leumi'im who are mostly Kahanists and Rabbi Kahana himself was a Chareidi Le'umi. There are many Charedim who live in Judea and Samaria and the Chabad, Breslvev etc Hasiduyot are awesome.
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Ron, the names you mentioned here.. DO they have political influence among the masses?
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There is a relatively small group of Charedim that are anti-zionist, isolated, and they don't even vote for the knesset. But even the other Charedim are politically very selfish. I mean they vote monolithically to the same two hideous parties (Yahadut hatorah- for ashkenazim, Shas- for sfaradim). They might send thousands of people to block the construction of a new rail road building or whatever if there is an old and likely not even Jewish burial site, but when the government destroys living settlements including their synagogues and grave yard, and expel righteous religious Jews from their homes- the Charedim are silent.
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They might send thousands of people to block the construction of a new rail road building or whatever if there is an old and likely not even Jewish burial site, but when the government destroys living settlements including their synagogues and grave yard, and expel righteous religious Jews from their homes- the Charedim are silent.
that is exactly what i observed from internet reports. Haredims would react strongly to Messanics activities, evengilical churches, but no protest over mosques or muslim settlements in gaza. Although i do endorse the stand taken by haredims against missionaries. But then why dont they apply the same yardstick to muslims?
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Ron, the names you mentioned here.. DO they have political influence among the masses?
I'm not too familiar with those guys, but anybody with the word "shlita" after his name usually has big impact with the masses.
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If that small group of Charedim are anti-zionist, why do they even bother living in Israel? Why don't they go live somewhere else?
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בס"ד
Ron, the names you mentioned here.. DO they have political influence among the masses?
Yes. Rabbi Ya'akov is already well known since he's the son of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shalita.
Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu is well known in the Dati-Leumi+Modern Orthodox+Haredi Leumi/etc groups. He's the spiritual leader of the Religious Zionists. Also he was he Sephardic chief Rabbi before Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. A HUGE Rabbi.
Rabbi Dov Wolpe is a huge Chabad leader, the head of an organization working for saving the Jewish people and the State of Israel aka "המטה להצלת העם הארץ". Also he's the leader of "Our Eretz Israel" movement which is a part of the National Union. MK Rabbi Michael Ben Ari is also a memeber of it.
PS: Rabbi Ya'akov Yosef is also a memeber of the spiritual leadership of the National Union, and also Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, Rabbi Dov Li'or Shalita, The huge Rabbi Baruch Zalman Melamed Shaltia.
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Unfortunately the Chassidic Rebbes like Belz, Bobov, Toldos Aharon, Satmar, Sanz, Vizhnitz, Trisk, Nedvorner, Lelover, Breslov, Klausenberg, Skver, Karlin, Sadigur, Bostoner, Slonim, Spinker, Gerer, even Lubavitch etc etc etc, who could instantly bring out untold thousands upon thousands of black coats, have been silent and indifferent.
But now that considerable numbers of Chassidic Haredi are perforce moving in to Yehuda & Shomron, they may have no choice but to act.
(http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/04062007/1144987/2_wa.jpg)
But as for them ever cooperating with the "knitted kippot" Orthodox - never the twain will meet!
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I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
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I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Incorrect. They are very learned in Torah (including Tancah) You can't learn The Oral Law without the Written Law or vice versa.
They do not join the military since they go to yeshiva instead.
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בס"ד
I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Incorrect. They are very learned in Torah (including Tancah) You can't learn The Oral Law without the Written Law or vice versa.
They do not join the military since they go to yeshiva instead.
Some do, some don't, don't generalize.
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בס"ד
I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Incorrect. They are very learned in Torah (including Tancah) You can't learn The Oral Law without the Written Law or vice versa.
They do not join the military since they go to yeshiva instead.
Some do, some don't, don't generalize.
After at least two decades of religious education, they all know Tanach.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Incorrect. They are very learned in Torah (including Tancah) You can't learn The Oral Law without the Written Law or vice versa.
They do not join the military since they go to yeshiva instead.
Some do, some don't, don't generalize.
After at least two decades of religious education, they all know Tanach.
I was talking about the joining military thing.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Incorrect. They are very learned in Torah (including Tancah) You can't learn The Oral Law without the Written Law or vice versa.
They do not join the military since they go to yeshiva instead.
Some do, some don't, don't generalize.
After at least two decades of religious education, they all know Tanach.
I was talking about the joining military thing.
I've never heard of somebody in a REAL Chareidi circle joining the army. When I say real I mean Meah Sharim, Ponovitch, payos down to their chest, anyone that grew up separated from the opposite sex, learning in Yeshiva at least 10 hours a day. I'm not talking about regular dati Jews from Beit Shemesh or the hesder, I'm talking actual charedim. It's against their circles to join the army. The have to be in beis medrash until they get married then kollel.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
בס"ד
I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Incorrect. They are very learned in Torah (including Tancah) You can't learn The Oral Law without the Written Law or vice versa.
They do not join the military since they go to yeshiva instead.
Some do, some don't, don't generalize.
After at least two decades of religious education, they all know Tanach.
I was talking about the joining military thing.
I've never heard of somebody in a REAL Chareidi circle joining the army. When I say real I mean Meah Sharim, Ponovitch, payos down to their chest, anyone that grew up separated from the opposite sex, learning in Yeshiva at least 10 hours a day. I'm not talking about regular dati Jews from Beit Shemesh or the hesder, I'm talking actual charedim. It's against their circles to join the army. The have to be in beis medrash until they get married then kollel.
No, a major part of Charedim really doesn't go to the army, but there are enough groups who joined the army, most of them Kahanist oldschool Haredis join or joined the army. Also there are some divisions especially for Charedim in the army.
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that grew up separated from the opposite sex
One of the fourty one reasons why I can't be a cheredi.
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בס"ד
that grew up separated from the opposite sex
One of the fourty one reasons why I can't be a cheredi.
And why's that? (answer me in a PM please)
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בס"ד
that grew up separated from the opposite sex
One of the fourty one reasons why I can't be a cheredi.
And why's that? (answer me in a PM please)
I'd like to see this, too, out of curiosity. Post it here, please.
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It was a joke. I could probably think of 284 reasons though. I can't be separated from the opposite sex though. I'd probably go insane living my life in a sausage fest.
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בס"ד
It was a joke. I could probably think of 284 reasons though. I can't be separated from the opposite sex though. I'd probably go insane living my life in a sausage fest.
And the question and the request I gave you remain the same.
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You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism. I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.
I can't be a Heredi because:
- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel
- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
- I can't live my life not having any fun
- Heredis aren't really stylish
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
- I'm a secular person
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
:laugh: :::D
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You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism. I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.
I can't be a Heredi because:
- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel
- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
- I can't live my life not having any fun
- Heredis aren't really stylish
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
- I'm a secular person
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
:laugh: :::D
what are you implying?
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You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism. I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.
I can't be a Heredi because:
- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel
- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
- I can't live my life not having any fun
- Heredis aren't really stylish
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
- I'm a secular person
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
- I like the ladies
:laugh: :::D
what are you implying?
Don't bother.
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בס"ד
You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism. I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.
I can't be a Heredi because:
- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel
- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
- I can't live my life not having any fun
- Heredis aren't really stylish
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
- I'm a secular person
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
- I like the ladies
Who tells you to be around men all the time? we're not Christian monks but there are limitations, we're not animals.
Ok, you need any proof/explanation for anything in Judaism, I can explain everything.
- So did "secular" Jews and at the time of th Holocaust there were more Haredis in Eretz Israel more than so-called "secular" Jews.
- So there are many other Jews from other groups and some of them are Rav Kahana, the ultimate Zionist.
- What does that have to do with the discussion? the prob is the definition of "having fun".
- Huh?
- Nobody tells you to do whatever he tells to do but when it comes to Halachic questions (for example, if I have a Halachic question I'll go to a Rabbi, if I have a question about the understanding of the geo-politic situation I'd to go to a military/security expert and/or go to library and to the History books.
- "Secularism" (what's that?) doesn't exist in Judaism.
- :::D :::D :::D Not living in Israel and knowing this about Haredis, there is a HUGE division especially for Haredis, Haredis WORK
(http://www.koogle.co.il/Images/News/F080206YZ02.JPG)
They're the number 1 charity attributers and they care about Jews more than you would ever in your life, etc. They pay texas (some not but they're not even Israeli citizens and they got NOTHING from the State).
- I love women too but I'm not getting my ebb inclinations into control of me, I'm a human not a beast.
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You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?
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בס"ד
You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?
Who lives his life seperated with society?????
Who's forbbiden to talk with girls (with modest limits of course but why would the very talking be forbbiden)???
Seems like your knowledge of Judaism is origined in the Bolshevik media and anti-Semitic cartoons and nothing further. How can you make sure they do that if you don't even know what Torah is???
And why are you mixing Christianity and Islam with Judaism?
what's "ultra Orthodox"? I don't know these definition.
Nobody makes you become a Haredi (I'm not), what does that have to do with the discussion? You know nothing about Torah so you choose between being an English speaking Gentile and something you don't know.
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You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?
It's not you, it's those people in your boat who are brainwashed by secular society/assimilation into becoming modern to the point of believing that there are doctrines of Judaism that are being dictated and are pointless and everybody who lives by them are miserable. It's hard for anyone to change, especially people raised in a certain way, but you must know that they are truly happy. You think you are happy with the physical/secular pleasures of life, which is common in today's society, but you have to understand that Judaism is based mostly on the World to Come and how to attain it using this world. If we lived our lives for ONLY this world, we would be worthless in the world to come. But like I said, nobody can expect somebody in your shoes to change. Just understand that Orthodox Jews believe in much more than the animal/physical temptations of this world .
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If that small group of Charedim are anti-zionist, why do they even bother living in Israel? Why don't they go live somewhere else?
Some communities have lived in Israel since the 18th century, some came during the late British and early independent. Essentially there has been a split in the Charedim- some chose an extreme reaction to zionism while most took a more moderate (and practical) stand.
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
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I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men. Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach. But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week). Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true. But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim. But this is only speaking in generalities. There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.
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I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men. Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach. But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week). Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true. But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim. But this is only speaking in generalities. There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.
There isn't Talmud learning without AT LEAST a somewhat strong background in written law.
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You need more explanations? I can't be around men all the time. Women are a gift to the world. Plus I have a Secular approach to everything, including religion, including Judaism.
Jewish men are not supposed to be constantly around only other men. We ARE supposed to devote ourselves faithfully to the woman we marry and focus our attention on her, not other women. That does not mean you can only hang with men. But once you are married, why would you want to be around other women? There is something seriously wrong with an attitude like that. And until that day when you're married, you can go on dates and try to find the right woman for you. Not sure what exactly you are saying here when you say sausage fests. You want to "hang out with women" ? If you are trying to say you would do so for the sake of variety and having nothing to do with wanting to have sexual encounters with these women, I do not believe you.
I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.
How is that a secular approach? Who says that religiosity is excluded by having such an approach?
I can't be a Heredi because:
- They had their own people killed in the Holocaust because they didn't want to go to Israel
What you say here is just plain stupid. No one "had their own people killed" in the holocaust except for the do-nothing worthless shmucks who looked on from the sidelines and did nothing when they could have helped. Or Ben Gurion and the Jewish agency (Those are secularists, einstein) that sabotaged rescue of Hungarian Jews. All the people who were actually murdered did not ask to be, and that you blame the victims is an atrocious crime.
Do you realize how many secular or less religious/traditional (read, non-haredi!) Jews were murdered in the holocaust? And they also refused to go to Israel, like the vast majority of Jews, religious or not. But that attitude existed and persisted for hundreds of years in Jewish life. Suddenly when the opportunity presented itself, the window closed very quickly and even if people wanted to go, they couldn't, beyond a certain time. What you say here is incomprehensibly stupid and idiotic.
There were many orthodox Jews that were murdered, but there were also secular and everything in between. And many of those "orthodox" would not be considered "haredi" by today's standards or even by the standards at that time. Because Orthodox was the bastion of tradition, while the modern yeshivish "haredi" is really a more extreme offshoot. Either way, what you say is illogical.
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- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
Many but not all. So what? Are you a zionist? And if so, are you in Israel? If you are not in Israel, you are not really living out any actual zionism. So what difference would it make anyway? But like I said, not all of them are anti-zionist. Not even the majority. The majority are so-called "non-zionist." And of course some are zionistic. Why can't you choose to be what you are?
- I can't live my life not having any fun
What is "fun" that you can't have in your life if you were haredi? Do you define "fun" as eating a cheeseburger or breaking some halacha? Or is it something else? I'm curious to know why you think "fun" is forbidden in haredi society, but first I must know what you define as 'fun.'
- Heredis aren't really stylish
That may be, but 1. who says you have to dress like them, and 2. that says nothing about whether or not their beliefs are true or not.
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
What's an individualist? Please define that. You don't have to 'do whatever a rabbi says.' Only if you ask a halachic shaila. Otherwise, you can take advice or not take advice, ask for it or not ask for it. It's always good to seek advice from a wise person whether you end up taking it or not. I'm sure you do do that for your big decisions, only instead of a rabbi, you call the person "friend" or "mom" or whatever else.
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
That's true for some but not all. So why can't you just be yourself? If you want to pay taxes pay them and you want to serve, serve. This is mostly shtuyot, and not the real essence of being "haredi" or a religious Jew. Even if some people think it is.
- I'm a secular person
- I like the ladies
What does it mean that you "like the ladies?" Does this mean that you have illicit relations with multiple females out of wedlock? If so, the problem is not that you can't be haredi, your problem is that you are unable to be JEWISH! There is no strain of Jewish religion that encourages this behavior, not even your local Deform rabbi.
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- Many of them are Anti-Zionist
Many but not all. So what? Are you a zionist? And if so, are you in Israel? If you are not in Israel, you are not really living out any actual zionism. So what difference would it make anyway? But like I said, not all of them are anti-zionist. Not even the majority. The majority are so-called "non-zionist." And of course some are zionistic. Why can't you choose to be what you are?
- I can't live my life not having any fun
What is "fun" that you can't have in your life if you were haredi? Do you define "fun" as eating a cheeseburger or breaking some halacha? Or is it something else? I'm curious to know why you think "fun" is forbidden in haredi society, but first I must know what you define as 'fun.'
- Heredis aren't really stylish
That may be, but 1. who says you have to dress like them, and 2. that says nothing about whether or not their beliefs are true or not.
- I'm an individualist so I don't want to be following whatever a Rabbi says
What's an individualist? Please define that. You don't have to 'do whatever a rabbi says.' Only if you ask a halachic shaila. Otherwise, you can take advice or not take advice, ask for it or not ask for it. It's always good to seek advice from a wise person whether you end up taking it or not. I'm sure you do do that for your big decisions, only instead of a rabbi, you call the person "friend" or "mom" or whatever else.
- They don't pay taxes or serve in the Israeli military
That's true for some but not all. So why can't you just be yourself? If you want to pay taxes pay them and you want to serve, serve. This is mostly shtuyot, and not the real essence of being "haredi" or a religious Jew. Even if some people think it is.
- I'm a secular person
- I like the ladies
What does it mean that you "like the ladies?" Does this mean that you have illicit relations with multiple females out of wedlock? If so, the problem is not that you can't be haredi, your problem is that you are unable to be JEWISH! There is no strain of Jewish religion that encourages this behavior, not even your local Deform rabbi.
pwned
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I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them".
You can talk to a girl without marrying her. You are forbidden to touch her or engage in sexual behavior with her without marrying her. If you have a problem with this, your problem is not with haredim, but with God. Take it up with Him?
Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?
Because you made a post that said:
"One of the fourty one reasons why I can't be a cheredi."
And then another one that said "It was a joke. I could probably think of 284 reasons though. I can't be separated from the opposite sex though. I'd probably go insane living my life in a sausage fest."
And then a third post where you proceeded to list your "reasons"
Look, nobody is saying you have to be "haredi" but it seems to me that your problem is with Judaism more than it is with any particular strain of haredism or the general haredi world.
Anyway, are you even Jewish? If not, this entire convo may have been pointless....
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You would love to lie your life separated with society? I don't like the whole reputation about Haredis as well. What's the point of this? I don't want to be Haredi. I can control myself as well but I'm still going to hang out with girls and not say "Oh I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to talk to girls unless I'm marrying them". They really sound like Jewish monks. They can do what they do but it's not for me. Why is this whole discussion turned to the reason why I wouldn't want to be ultra Orthodox?
It's not you, it's those people in your boat who are brainwashed by secular society/assimilation into becoming modern to the point of believing that there are doctrines of Judaism that are being dictated and are pointless and everybody who lives by them are miserable. It's hard for anyone to change, especially people raised in a certain way, but you must know that they are truly happy. You think you are happy with the physical/secular pleasures of life, which is common in today's society, but you have to understand that Judaism is based mostly on the World to Come and how to attain it using this world. If we lived our lives for ONLY this world, we would be worthless in the world to come. But like I said, nobody can expect somebody in your shoes to change. Just understand that Orthodox Jews believe in much more than the animal/physical temptations of this world .
re-read before you go on the defensive.
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I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men. Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach. But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week). Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true. But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim. But this is only speaking in generalities. There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.
There isn't Talmud learning without AT LEAST a somewhat strong background in written law.
Written Law, yes. Tanach, not so much.
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Btw "
I question everything and never take what somebody says to me face value.
How is that a secular approach? Who says that religiosity is excluded by having such an approach?
This is actually a good approach to learning Talmud well.
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I heard that the Heredim has little knowledge of the Tanach and seldom read it. Is that true?
Also another question: Do they participate in Israel's compulsory military services?
Chareidi women know it very well, in most cases better than Chareidi men. Because Charedi men's education is more focused on Talmud, while the women learn more on the Torah portion and more in Tanach. But the men do know those things as well (obviously the Torah portion because it is a mitzvah to read it several times with commentary each week). Maybe they are not as well versed in Tanach, that is likely true. But the Dati Leumi communities incorporated Tanach learning more into their yeshiva system so they are stronger there if less capable in Talmud relative to Charedim. But this is only speaking in generalities. There will always be exceptions to these general rules, there will be certain people who excel in all of these subjects and can become leaders of communities due to their expertise.
There isn't Talmud learning without AT LEAST a somewhat strong background in written law.
Written Law, yes. Tanach, not so much.
Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.
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Written Law, yes. Tanach, not so much.
Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.
Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly. I figured that is what he meant.
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Written Law, yes. Tanach, not so much.
Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.
Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly. I figured that is what he meant.
Regardless, they learn enough of it and know plenty. Not to mention, a lot of it is already used in the Talmud.
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Written Law, yes. Tanach, not so much.
Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.
Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly. I figured that is what he meant.
Regardless, they learn enough of it and know plenty. Not to mention, a lot of it is already used in the Talmud.
I think what they learn of it is mostly as kids, and you don't retain that much knowledge of it. The more operational knowledge is of talmud, the mode the yeshiva switches to at rather young age nowadays. You can't learn all your nach from Talmud and say that that is sufficient or adequate knowledge of those texts. (Although some will say "that's all you need to know!" - I don't think that's an intellectually honest position.) Nonetheless, the women know tanach rather well. And of course there are always exceptions. But for sure, the zionist yeshivot incorporated the tanach study for a reason.. Because it was lacking in the yeshivot. It is not a main focus. Some lament this, others celebrate it, others perhaps are indifferent or don't realize things can be different or don't find them worth changing even if they don't like it entirely.
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Written Law, yes. Tanach, not so much.
Tanach includes the 5 books of Moses. Maybe you guys are referring to Nach.
Yes I was referring to Naviim and Ketuvim mostly. I figured that is what he meant.
Regardless, they learn enough of it and know plenty. Not to mention, a lot of it is already used in the Talmud.
I think what they learn of it is mostly as kids, and you don't retain that much knowledge of it. The more operational knowledge is of talmud, the mode the yeshiva switches to at rather young age nowadays. You can't learn all your nach from Talmud and say that that is sufficient or adequate knowledge of those texts. (Although some will say "that's all you need to know!" - I don't think that's an intellectually honest position.) Nonetheless, the women know tanach rather well. And of course there are always exceptions. But for sure, the zionist yeshivot incorporated the tanach study for a reason.. Because it was lacking in the yeshivot. It is not a main focus. Some lament this, others celebrate it, others perhaps are indifferent or don't realize things can be different or don't find them worth changing even if they don't like it entirely.
Right, but the point is that they know enough even though they may focus more on gemara as they get older.
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What do you mean that the haredim are not stylish?! I think the peyot are cutest things ever!!!!!!!!!
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What do you mean that the haredim are not stylish?! I think the peyot are cutest things ever!!!!!!!!!
My Peyot are the cutest things ever..... I havent cut them in over 3 years...
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If it was accepted by my wife and family I woukd consider growing them except for the fact it be a chilool hshem because I don't wear a kippa nor shomer shabbat etc. But peyot are beautiful and I do have a fascination with them
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
They are strict about interacting with women that are not family, again to various levels according to their affiliation. But when it comes to marrying and producing children the Charedim are the Jewish champions.
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
They are strict about interacting with women that are not family, again to various levels according to their affiliation. But when it comes to marrying and producing children the Charedim are the Jewish champions.
i find nothing wrong in that, and i also read that liberal Jews are protesting against this. Let me tell you... In India 70% of the schools/colleges have segregated seating arrangements for boys and girls. While 90% of public transport services in India too have segregated seating arrangements. Maybe this is because of Hindu culture/ethics. But, we never felt it restricts our freedom or that it is too strict.
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
They are strict about interacting with women that are not family, again to various levels according to their affiliation. But when it comes to marrying and producing children the Charedim are the Jewish champions.
i find nothing wrong in that, and i also read that liberal Jews are protesting against this. Let me tell you... In India 70% of the schools/colleges have segregated seating arrangements for boys and girls. While 90% of public transport services in India too have segregated seating arrangements. Maybe this is because of Hindu culture/ethics. But, we never felt it restricts our freedom or that it is too strict.
I didn't know that India has segregated sitting arrangement in public transport. To be honest in my view it is too strict. In Israel there is seating segregation in some bus lines that serve mostly Charedim. But there is friction between the Charedim and the rest of Israel, including most religious Jews, regarding some of those lines that serve also the general population.
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
They are strict about interacting with women that are not family, again to various levels according to their affiliation. But when it comes to marrying and producing children the Charedim are the Jewish champions.
i find nothing wrong in that, and i also read that liberal Jews are protesting against this. Let me tell you... In India 70% of the schools/colleges have segregated seating arrangements for boys and girls. While 90% of public transport services in India too have segregated seating arrangements. Maybe this is because of Hindu culture/ethics. But, we never felt it restricts our freedom or that it is too strict.
I didn't know that India has segregated sitting arrangement in public transport. To be honest in my view it is too strict. In Israel there is seating segregation in some bus lines that serve mostly Charedim. But there is friction between the Charedim and the rest of Israel, including most religious Jews, regarding some of those lines that serve also the general population.
Infact in the labour industry the workplace is also sagregated for women and men. Its not strict considering men and women are allowed to come together during festives (eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCglJ023Rbo). And this is allowed in a Hindu Nationalist ruled state. So I'm thinking how would Kahanist government actually deal with the agenda of the Charedims. Because they seem to have united stand on national/religious issues, how bout cultural? I think this would be a good question to ask Chaim in Ask JTF. :)
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Nothing more hilarious than a 100% goy like Jean Claude van Damme with clip-on exaggerated peyos!
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/83/243084898_a35d83a87a.jpg)
What do you mean that the haredim are not stylish?! I think the peyot are cutest things ever!!!!!!!!!
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What movie is that from?
His beard is legit at least.
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"The Order": a mediocre film with Christological overtones, but with some good fight scenes, where Van Damme, dressed as a Haredi, uses his karate to duff over Arabs and overweight Israeli policemen in the Old City of Jerusalem!
(http://i33.tinypic.com/2u451eo.jpg)
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wonga66:
"Rabbi Kahane always said that "the Haredim are irrelevant!". And shame to tell, this is basically true! "
rabbi kahane never said this , and when this was raised at another forum (by i asume , you ?) lenny goldberg came and approved this is a lie .
"Witness the 2005 Hitnatkut: apart from a handful of Lubavitchers, not one Haredi took part in the demonstrations against the dastardly Gaza Deportation of their fellow Jews. "
the haredim arranged a huge prayer&demonstration on the wailing wall
"Had even a few % of the Haredim with their vast numbers taken part, it would have blocked the whole deportation."
there was blockades preventing the tousands from entering , many of those , indeed was charedim (and not just chabad)
berslovim are not charedim ? charedim spharadim are not charedim ? come on ...
"There were no calls at all by Haredi leaders, politicians, rebbes, ravs or roshei yeshivahs to demonstrate."
not true at all , like i said , they arranged mass prayer-protest , and all politicians of the charedi parties didn't voted for that plan
"And the Haredi parties kept Sharon's government afloat during it, in exchange for $$$!"
shas wasn't in the goverment ... and yahadut hatorah only joined after the vote (in which they didn't supported on the knesset voting assembly)
the reason they joined the goverment , is not to keep sharon's goverment afloat , it is because they wanted what they came there to do in the first place , get money for their toranical institutions , this is why they are they are in the knesset for in the first place , to get money for this goals , since , unlike secular institutions, who have a yearly budget anchored by legislation in the country's yearly budget , charedi institutions dont ...so they work for that aim , with any goverment who are willing to give it , they are sectorial paries , on the bottom line, and act according to that
shas however , chosed to not be a part of that criminal goverment , and i belive yahadut hatorah should have followed that path ..but i dont think its fair describing it with this simpilifaction kind of image , which might sound like , they actually joined the goverment because they suppoted what the goverment was doing g-d forbid ...that is absolutely not the case
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That R. Kahane said that "The Haredim are irrelevant" I heard this from R.Kahane himself in 1981. And you can call up his wife who'll confirm that that was one of his aphorisms, and also other of his mishpoche I've spoken to.
I do not view Lubavitch and Breslov as "Haredim". Lubavitch and Breslov are the closest of all the Hassidic groups in yichus to the Baal Shem Tov and to his Chassidic teachings, and therefore are 'truer' Chassidim ie probably have a higher % of correct ideology in them. The other Hassidic groups have tenuous connections to the Besht. And those like Satmar and Toldos Aharon, no connection at all.
Also the Lubavitcher Rebbe was right wing when it came to Eretz Yisroel and holding on to all territories and siezing those beyond, and most of his policies were in accord with Kahanism.
I define "Haredim" as the other 95% of black-garbed masses of Orthodox Jewry, Hassidic and non-Hassidic, who have little or no interest in Jewry or Eretz Yisroel outside of their own communities and narrow political agendas and financial interests, who totally disdain the "settlers' in Yesha, and whose rebbes and roshei yeshivah are as far from Kahanism as Shulamit Aloni.
There may have been paper notices for prayer meetings and expressing verbal opposition to the Hitnatkut by Ovadiya Yosef and Shas, who tried to make political capital out of it, but there was no mass Haredi turn out anywhere.
And even Breslovers and Lubavitchers were not to be seen at the actual physical demonstrations in Gush Kativ in July 2005. If only a few % of Haredim had turned out to join the non-Haredi protesters, which was too thin on the ground, in blocking the main Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway in May, in numbers that could not be moved, the story may have been different.
Today too, no Haredi will join a physical demo, unless he's actually ordered to by his rebbe or rosh yeshivah, or unless his home own home in Yesha is physically threatened.
Haredim are tough, heavyweight, strapping, healthy men. This is just a tiny fraction of the Belzer community in Jerusalem alone. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_d4zmqSfE-J8/SQ97yZdkGuI/AAAAAAAABo8/xnw_y_hJ6os/s400/Belz+-www.theyeshivaworld.com.jpg)
And here a small part of the Viznitz community
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k95DnR-pqGQ/Se3oZMH2_hI/AAAAAAAAEnM/yFaYYwzhWoQ/s400/2009226_0144121818_1.jpg)
Imagine if contingents from Belz, Bobov, Vizhnitz, Satmar, Toldos Aharon, Sadigur, Sanz, Ger, Ponovezh, Mirrer, Shas etc etc etc had all camped outside the Knesset to protest the Gaza Deportation and not moved: Sharon would have had no choice but to back down, or gun them down. I think he would have chosen the latter!
Rabbi Kahane's motto that "the Haredim are irrelevant" is as true as ever! Just like Noach took the entire reward of his generation, and Avraham of his, and R.Kahane likely of most of his, one day it may be shown that our little Chayim took a large chunk of the reward of all the these Haredi masses!
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
They are strict about interacting with women that are not family, again to various levels according to their affiliation. But when it comes to marrying and producing children the Charedim are the Jewish champions.
i find nothing wrong in that, and i also read that liberal Jews are protesting against this. Let me tell you... In India 70% of the schools/colleges have segregated seating arrangements for boys and girls. While 90% of public transport services in India too have segregated seating arrangements. Maybe this is because of Hindu culture/ethics. But, we never felt it restricts our freedom or that it is too strict.
Its not as simple as you think. Did you know that in the bet hamikdash (Solomons temple) men and women were not segregated. Its not about ethics. In Hamadan it was unheard of for a man and his wife to be separated in social functions like weddings yet, many charadi do this. I understand the topic of the "sausage fest" , yet I do agree we should not be animals. But if you think about it, if one is married, he will be with his wife (or should be if they like each other lol) If they are single, all the more reason for segregation not to be implemented so one can find his soul mate. Segregation for me personally is more for modesty such as bathrooms, changing rooms etc, not for being separated from your wife during dinner at a wedding.
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Another 100% goy with exaggerated clip-on peyos: Frenchman Louis de Funes
(http://www.cinemotions.net/data/films/0041/07/2/photo-Les-Aventures-de-Rabbi-Jacob-1973-1.jpg)
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
They are strict about interacting with women that are not family, again to various levels according to their affiliation. But when it comes to marrying and producing children the Charedim are the Jewish champions.
i find nothing wrong in that, and i also read that liberal Jews are protesting against this. Let me tell you... In India 70% of the schools/colleges have segregated seating arrangements for boys and girls. While 90% of public transport services in India too have segregated seating arrangements. Maybe this is because of Hindu culture/ethics. But, we never felt it restricts our freedom or that it is too strict.
Its not as simple as you think. Did you know that in the bet hamikdash (Solomons temple) men and women were not segregated. Its not about ethics. In Hamadan it was unheard of for a man and his wife to be separated in social functions like weddings yet, many charadi do this. I understand the topic of the "sausage fest" , yet I do agree we should not be animals. But if you think about it, if one is married, he will be with his wife (or should be if they like each other lol) If they are single, all the more reason for segregation not to be implemented so one can find his soul mate. Segregation for me personally is more for modesty such as bathrooms, changing rooms etc, not for being separated from your wife during dinner at a wedding.
Men and women did not dance together, even in the times of the Torah. You realize at the song of the sea that Miriam danced with the women... But aside from that, the only time that there should be separate seating is during davening, with a kosher mehitza.
I think if you look at the Halacha, and what we learn in the Shulchan Uruch {Code of Jewish law} you will discover that there is something wrong with even an unmarried man having unpure thoughts about an immodest woman.
I know that the seperation issue is a divisive one... But I do understand that there is danger in what we look at, as we are tempted by our eyes and our hearts, another reason that we should wear our tzit-tzits out so that we should see them and remember.
http://mobile.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/444101
But Why the Mechitzah?
There remains one burning question: If woman is the essence of prayer and song, why is she silent? Where is her creativity and inspiration? Where is her song? Fine, she won't be part of the protocol management. But why can't her voice and presence be an inspiration in the shul?
Things weren't always this way. In the tabernacle and in the First Temple, there was no separation between men and women. Only after matters got out of hand in the Second Temple, was the community forced to create a balcony for women above, while men stayed below. Perhaps, in the messianic era, when we return to our former spiritual status and more, we will return to the original format.
However, as human nature stands today, the reasoning of the sages of the Talmud is still very apparent: Men mingling with women, or listening to a woman's voice -- especially a woman that they know and can see -- are not necessarily carried to spiritual heights, but unfortunately often in the opposite direction. Women don't seem to understand this -- they seem to have very high opinions of us. But if you ask men, and if they're honest with you, they'll admit that they would not be able to pray with proper concentration in a situation where they can see and hear the fairer sex. (But this is a man speaking. Why not read this intriguing woman's view of how the mechitzah looks from her side?
There is a deeper perspective to all this: This is galut. Exile. The Shechinah is in captivity, not in her place. She is ignored and despised. And she is quiet there. But in the world-yet-to-come, the messianic era that we are poised to enter, then we will hear, "Once again in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of joy and the voice of rejoicing, the voice of the groom and the voice of the bride."7
The Shechinah will sing once again.8
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wonga66:
"Rabbi Kahane always said that "the Haredim are irrelevant!". And shame to tell, this is basically true! "
rabbi kahane never said this , and when this was raised at another forum (by i asume , you ?) lenny goldberg came and approved this is a lie .
Interesting. I had assumed that if the quote was true he was speaking of the haredi political parties, which in that case it is absolutely true. They are on the govt payroll and are given hush money, and that makes them irrelevant where they would otherwise be important.
"Witness the 2005 Hitnatkut: apart from a handful of Lubavitchers, not one Haredi took part in the demonstrations against the dastardly Gaza Deportation of their fellow Jews. "
the haredim arranged a huge prayer&demonstration on the wailing wall
To this ridiculous statement I will only quote Jacob Gur, a former commander of the Irgun, who puts it so aptly on his website:
Quote: "Rallies, demonstrations, whining, conferences, and raising funds, are not the way to depose the present pseudo democratic government of Israel, which leads the State of Israel in harm’s way. This government caves in to Arab thugs in the Land of Israel, and to “allies” who reek with petroleum.
It’s a government of pariahs, from left to right, who inflicted the Oslo Shoah upon us, and banished the Children of Israel from the Land of Israel. They are the lineage of those who caved in to the evil British regime in the 1940s, and delivered our freedom fighters to the British hangman. They shall be remembered in shame and everlasting contempt! "
That cannot be stressed enough in my opinion.
"There were no calls at all by Haredi leaders, politicians, rebbes, ravs or roshei yeshivahs to demonstrate."
not true at all , like i said , they arranged mass prayer-protest , and all politicians of the charedi parties didn't voted for that plan
This is a complete lie. United Torah Judaism/Degel HaTorah was offered 690 million Israeli shekels to vote in favor of this plan and they did so. Agudath Yisrael also supported it openly. Btw, UTJ only received about 200 or so million of those 690 they were promised. But they know where the bread is buttered, either way. And they did vote for it.
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If they are single, all the more reason for segregation not to be implemented so one can find his soul mate. Segregation for me personally is more for modesty such as bathrooms, changing rooms etc, not for being separated from your wife during dinner at a wedding.
I agree with you here and there are huge poskim who agreed with you as well, who encouraged mixed seating at weddings so that people could find potential shidduchim that way, and also big gedolim who sat with their own wives at weddings at a table with other people.
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Muman who said anything about dancing?
I don't see that anywhere until you brought it up. Mixed dancing is Vadae (Certainly) assur (forbidden).
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It is important to understand that there is a whole spectrum of religious variates in Israel. Charedism itself is a large various section on the spectrum.
i really hope their numbers grow, but i read somewhere here mention that Charedim men cannot interact with women? does that mean they have to live a celibate life? THen its really difficult for their numbers to grow.
They are strict about interacting with women that are not family, again to various levels according to their affiliation. But when it comes to marrying and producing children the Charedim are the Jewish champions.
i find nothing wrong in that, and i also read that liberal Jews are protesting against this. Let me tell you... In India 70% of the schools/colleges have segregated seating arrangements for boys and girls. While 90% of public transport services in India too have segregated seating arrangements. Maybe this is because of Hindu culture/ethics. But, we never felt it restricts our freedom or that it is too strict.
Its not as simple as you think. Did you know that in the bet hamikdash (Solomons temple) men and women were not segregated. Its not about ethics. In Hamadan it was unheard of for a man and his wife to be separated in social functions like weddings yet, many charadi do this. I understand the topic of the "sausage fest" , yet I do agree we should not be animals. But if you think about it, if one is married, he will be with his wife (or should be if they like each other lol) If they are single, all the more reason for segregation not to be implemented so one can find his soul mate. Segregation for me personally is more for modesty such as bathrooms, changing rooms etc, not for being separated from your wife during dinner at a wedding.
Men and women did not dance together, even in the times of the Torah. You realize at the song of the sea that Miriam danced with the women... But aside from that, the only time that there should be separate seating is during davening, with a kosher mehitza.
I think if you look at the Halacha, and what we learn in the Shulchan Uruch {Code of Jewish law} you will discover that there is something wrong with even an unmarried man having unpure thoughts about an immodest woman.
I know that the seperation issue is a divisive one... But I do understand that there is danger in what we look at, as we are tempted by our eyes and our hearts, another reason that we should wear our tzit-tzits out so that we should see them and remember.
http://mobile.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/444101
But Why the Mechitzah?
There remains one burning question: If woman is the essence of prayer and song, why is she silent? Where is her creativity and inspiration? Where is her song? Fine, she won't be part of the protocol management. But why can't her voice and presence be an inspiration in the shul?
Things weren't always this way. In the tabernacle and in the First Temple, there was no separation between men and women. Only after matters got out of hand in the Second Temple, was the community forced to create a balcony for women above, while men stayed below. Perhaps, in the messianic era, when we return to our former spiritual status and more, we will return to the original format.
However, as human nature stands today, the reasoning of the sages of the Talmud is still very apparent: Men mingling with women, or listening to a woman's voice -- especially a woman that they know and can see -- are not necessarily carried to spiritual heights, but unfortunately often in the opposite direction. Women don't seem to understand this -- they seem to have very high opinions of us. But if you ask men, and if they're honest with you, they'll admit that they would not be able to pray with proper concentration in a situation where they can see and hear the fairer sex. (But this is a man speaking. Why not read this intriguing woman's view of how the mechitzah looks from her side?
There is a deeper perspective to all this: This is galut. Exile. The Shechinah is in captivity, not in her place. She is ignored and despised. And she is quiet there. But in the world-yet-to-come, the messianic era that we are poised to enter, then we will hear, "Once again in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of joy and the voice of rejoicing, the voice of the groom and the voice of the bride."7
The Shechinah will sing once again.8
I never mentioned Dancing. This is a problem when people jump to conclusions , it is ironic the less one knows the more strict they have
to be to ensure not making a sin. It is interesting that you add That Aspect of the first temple this is why
there are places such as in Hamadan that ultimately came from the era of the first temple and not the second ,which is why they do not
segregate their women, however people in the second temple era were indeed so corrupt and immoral that the temple had
to be destined indefinably... you made an amazing point The Truth Is The Truth... And The Truth Hurts .....but i digress. on a lighter
side , if a woman really will disrupt a mans concentration in praying ..well , there are drugs to help with attention like aderall stratera or
ritalin haha.
And yes i agree in the messianic era things will return to the original Judaism ..so if you like women you better get your act together so
the Moshash will come.
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Haredim are tough, heavyweight, strapping, healthy men. This is just a tiny fraction of the Belzer community in Jerusalem alone. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_d4zmqSfE-J8/SQ97yZdkGuI/AAAAAAAABo8/xnw_y_hJ6os/s400/Belz+-www.theyeshivaworld.com.jpg)
And here a small part of the Viznitz community
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k95DnR-pqGQ/Se3oZMH2_hI/AAAAAAAAEnM/yFaYYwzhWoQ/s400/2009226_0144121818_1.jpg)
wow,great to see them united, focused to protect their culture. I hope they support Kahanists. I know they have some strong views, but that is what i admire about them(Haredims).
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What is Hamadan ?
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an area in Persia ..(unfortunately now Islamic republic )were Mordecai and Ester lived
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And not forgetting the 5% of Haredim who actually side with our mortal enemies!
(http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D311209/rabbi.jpg)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1139054.html
Ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist Jews protest the Gaza siege at the Erez border crossing on Thursday
These are referred to in the Zohar as the Erev Zeir (Mixed Minitude) as opposed to the Erev Rav (Mixed Multitude). The Erev Zeir are nominal Jews who believe in the Torah and keep the mitzvos, but are still dangerous mortal internal enemies of the Am Yisroel!
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As far as I am concerned, NK and Satmar are Jews who have converted to Islam.
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As far as I am concerned, NK and Satmar are Jews who have converted to Islam.
That's true for NK but not for all of Satmar. Some Satmar chassidim are good people who just have wrong beliefs.
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Yes, I know there are a couple righteous Satmar here and there (like that guy in the JDL), but they are being untrue to Teitelbaum's teachings. The Satmar cult is evil to the core.
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wonga- hello again
last time we discussed this,you told me to ask lenny , and i did , and he said he never said such a thing , if charedim was irrelevant to him , why would he bother go and speak to them, interview to charedi papers (and he did , more then once) , he himself , in fact ,was charedi , he learned at The Mir yeshiva and he is a charedi rabbi , who even was charedi rabbi in a charedi community , much before the days of the jdl (!!!) , he was against the term "dati leumi " he said it sounded as if people are trying to convert nationalism , etc .
perheps , you heard him say "natory karta" as in "anti zionist chardim" ,are irrelevant
that would be much more logical !
kahane believed that both dati leumi and charedim as "mega hashkfa's" have strong points ,and weak points , and offered his "harayon hayehudi" (jewish idea)hashkafa , "back to the roots" , But in the bottem line , he himself was more charedi-rooted orthodox, and a charedi rabbi , again i remind you , he was learning in charedi yeshiva and his semicha lerabbanut came from a charedi yeshiva , and he was a charedi rabbi (very zionist , true , just as 99% sphardi charedim , btw and many ashkenaz charedim this days )
"I do not view Lubavitch and Breslov as "Haredim""
ok , but they are,you know
why no connection at all? they are after all chasidim ,with chasidim ideology
about the rabbi menachem mendel schneerson alav hashalom , true , he was a great supporter of erets israel and torah zionism
in that chabad ,berslov ,sphardi charedim , differ alot from satmar who says shloshet hashvuut forbid building a country now
however, there are many "zionist" charedi , anti-zionists today are a minority
well , i'm charedi , and i'm a kahanist
i'm not saying there arn't charedim as you describe , what i am saying is, its not a true picture to claim most are anti zionist , the opposit is true
"who tried to make political capital out of it"
did they ? sharon offered them much in order to support it , and they refused . i think they should recieve respact for this , mainly because they actually took a "position" ... and like the anti-bagats demonstrations in 99 , and other cases , in which charedim did show their potential in the fight for torah causes , like look what they are doing now for shabbat in jerusalem , for months in a row
you know in jerusalem , in every purim , there are more beaten arabs then any other usual time of the year, usually arabs who are fool enough to walk near their neighborhoods , its actually how they celebrate purim , for few years now , kicking the daylight out of any arab who shows his face there
when rabbi binyamin kahane hy"d was killed , tousands of them came to the funeral (and beaten up any arab who was around , just search for media covrage and see for yourself)
overall , i agree more should be done about eretz israel ,and i'm not the only one , just a few months ago , new outpost (maahaz) was founded , by tens of kahanist charedim ! baruch hashem , and more should be built beezrat hashem
many charedi rabbi's show their support for eretz israel shelanu/hazit yehudit (rabbi baruch marzel and rabbi shalom dov wolpo shali"ta party ,part of the national union) and the "hamate haolami lehatsalat ha am ve ha aretz" , just check out the list on their site
many charedi rabbis show their support for rabbi meir kahane hy"d devray torah this days, just like many datiim leumiem ... so overall , things are building up and 'the jewish idea' (kahanism) gets much more support in both charedi and dati leumi hashkafot this days
anyway man , for years we have this discussions (if your the same guy) what i'm saying is , bro , i am a kahanist charedi , we do baruch hashem exist lol , like we say in hebrew "lo le'hakhlil" ,(dont stygmatize ) all charedim as anti zionist , g-d forbid ... anti-zionist charedim this days are the minority of the charedi world , just as "mamlachtim bli psharot" are a minority now in general settlers opinions .
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kahane was right bt-
if the qoute is true (and i'm not saying he's lying , i'm saying it defy's logic per say as it sound that rabbi meir kahane hy"d would have said it ) its likely about naturey karta
though the rabbi not only didn't ignored opinions of the anti-zionists , he wrote a toranical answer to their claims in his books , he considered satmar's view as a toranical view who should be answered correctly and not by mere "ze divray agada"
אבל הוא בהחלט דיבר נגד אלו שהולכים לערבים ומדברים נגד המדינה וכו' , וייתכן שזה כוון אליהם
(hopefully you understand hebrew , if not i'll write it to you in private )
"To this ridiculous statement I will only quote Jacob Gur, a former commander of the Irgun, who puts it so aptly on his website ...etc"
what would you suggest , uprising ?
demonstration is a good way to do "tochacha" ... and that what was done
i am all for - "block them with the masses" , unfortunately , even though THERE COULD BE ENOUGH MASSES , there were blockades and endless "walk around" instead of a charge forward
it is estimated that if 30 tousand people would have tried to simply defend with their bodies the settlements , this satanic plan wouldn't have been able to be done
there was many more then 30000 ... but they couldn't get in ...
and even if all charedim would have come , they still couldn't get in ...you know why ?
מועצת יש"ע , ונא לא לתרגם לאנגלית...הביזיון מספיק קשה גם בעברית, לא צריך שגם כל העולם ידע...
(hopfully you understood this , if not i'll send you on private)
your wrong they only sat in the goverment , in the actual knesset vote . shas voted against (all of them) and yahadut hatorah (degel and aguda) withhold (avoided , as in , didn't voted for it) , like i said"and all politicians of the charedi parties didn't voted for that plan "
check the knesset voting ,and see .
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people ,stop comparing satmar and naturay karta ... satmar are halachic based people who believe that jews need to be in the galut untill mosiach comes and have a toranical point of view .... they are not "anti zionists" for the sake of "anti zionists" , they have a toranical based idea (which we have answered to in a toranical way ,we believe they are wrong )
naturay karta , some of them are satmar , not all of them , and not all of them went to achmadenjad , it is a splinter group which dont even listen to their rabbis who tell them not to do this and people should know this , this people WAS BANNED in israel , by everyone in meah shearim including other anti-zionist chassidim !!!
charedim have something called pashkvil, its like a ads of news .... when that thing happened , many ads showing what they have done was placed all over meah shearim by kahanists and charedim who work with kahanists who's nickname are "siccarim" (a group of charedim who fight muslim employment in jewish neigberhoods ) , and most charedim there were shocked and outraged about this , and about going to a holocaust denying event ! they were put on "herem" , which is jewish banning , means no relationship with any of them ... no one speaks with them , in some torah evning done some time ago , one of them almost got lynched (the rabbi ordered those who wanted to punch him to stop , and said , tochacha(telling them they do wrong ) is enough - and the rabbi is not zionist charedi , just for the record!!!)
i'm telling this , because people should know , not all 'anti zionist" charedi (who are wrong regardless) are friends of arabs
rabbi Joel Teitelbaum alav hashalom , called the arab leaders like arafat yesh"u murderers ,he and other anti-zionist rabbi's forbade supporting them/shaking their filthy hands/or any self-hating beihavior like this
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R.Kahane's last book was "Revolution or Referendum".
What kind of "revolution" did he have in mind?
Something akin to the French or American Revolutions, with a large body count? ie where Jews man the barricades and are prepared to kill and be maimed, by fellow Jews, as happened in Biblical times?
If so, it's not gonna happen in this satiated, overfed generation, unless......the food supply is interrupted!
As for an electoral revolution, it's also not gonna happen: TPTB and the NWO's Israeli lackies are just too entrenched.
What might do it is....mega terror! Terror attacks on such a scale, with so many casualties, far far far beyond 911, that the evil of the Yishmoelim is open to all to see, even those like Yossi Sarid and Uri Avnery, so that the Jews actually become angry:
"And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not G-d; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled in Mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend Mine arrows upon them." (Devarim 32)
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United Torah Judaism was paid over 200 million Israeli shekels to go along with Sharon's expulsion plan. They were promised 690 million but were only paid 230 or so. To defend this evil is inexcusable. Bribery is assur.
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A few Haredim may yet merit to be present at the Hisgalus!
Here the start of a glimmer of acknowledgment to R.Kahane on the Haredish "Yeshivah World News" site!
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/44228/Arabs+Slowly+but+Steadily+Reveal+The+True+Agenda.html
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kwrbt- look man , i'm not defending that . what i'm saying is , they did not vote for it ,and thats a fact
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kwrbt- look man , i'm not defending that . what i'm saying is , they did not vote for it ,and thats a fact
Yes, they DID. You are misinformed.
http://machonshilo.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=29
Make no mistake about it. It was a betrayal based on bribery. If that is shocking, upsetting, disheartening, etc etc, well - Join the club. But let's deal with reality. What was done was done.