JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Raulmarrio2000 on February 02, 2010, 04:03:59 PM
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http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/584394380
Save Martin Grossman's Life!
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I have read the petition carefully and I signed it. It was terrible what he did, but I think that the death penalty is disproportionate if you look at the person and the circumstances of the crime. Specially if you consider the fact that he admitted the crime and feels guilty for it.
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Is this the same person
"On the night of December 13, 1984, Martin Grossman and a companion, Taylor, drove to a wooded area in Pinellas County, Florida, and were shooting a stolen handgun when they were approached by Margaret Park, a Florida Wildlife Officer.
Park confiscated the weapon and license of Grossman, at which point Grossman pleaded with her not report him for possessing a weapon and being outside of Pasco County, both of which were violations of his probation for a burglary charge.
Park picked up the radio to call the sheriff’s office, but was repeatedly struck on the head and shoulders by her flashlight by Grossman and then beaten by Taylor.
Park managed to draw her weapon and fired a wild shot within the vehicle, as well as disable Taylor with a kick to the groin. Grossman, who was one foot taller and one hundred pounds heavier than Park, wrestled the weapon away from her and shot her once in the back of the head.
Grossman and Taylor fled the scene with Grossman’s license, gun, and Park’s gun."
http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/ig/Florida-Death-Row-Inmates/Martin-Grossman.htm
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Nope. I can't say I feel sympathy for this man.
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Nope. I can't say I feel sympathy for this man.
I second that.
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I am not an expert on Hallacha. But I understand that we must try to save a Jew from a Gentile punishment, even a fine, when according to Torah he would have been judged differently. I doubt he'd have been condemned to execution 25 years later under any Jewish court in Israel if a Sanhedrin were in power.
If it is true that Ravs supported the petition, I cling to their rule. Besides, I consider that a life sentence, with 25 years suffering a pending execution, is by large enough punishment for him
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I really don't see why khalid sheik mohammed, abdul rahman and nidal hasan can't get the death penalty.
Just kill those degraded apes.
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I am not an expert on Hallacha. But I understand that we must try to save a Jew from a Gentile punishment, even a fine, when according to Torah he would have been judged differently. I doubt he'd have been condemned to execution 25 years later under any Jewish court in Israel if a Sanhedrin were in power.
If it is true that Ravs supported the petition, I cling to their rule. Besides, I consider that a life sentence, with 25 years suffering a pending execution, is by large enough punishment for him
I agree. They are not asking for clemency or release. They are asking for a life sentence with no parole instead of the death penalty. Given the circumstances, and for a guy who has repented of his ways, I see no problem with that and agree with rebbeim who are behind this petition.
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he doesn't look so great now
(http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/f/r/grossman_martin.jpg)
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There are worse criminals who deserve the death penalty instead of this guy but coming up with a list of excuses for his actions is wrong. He did what he did and now he's going to face the consequences. I don't have any sympathy for him.
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I am not an expert on Hallacha. But I understand that we must try to save a Jew from a Gentile punishment, even a fine, when according to Torah he would have been judged differently. I doubt he'd have been condemned to execution 25 years later under any Jewish court in Israel if a Sanhedrin were in power.
If it is true that Ravs supported the petition, I cling to their rule. Besides, I consider that a life sentence, with 25 years suffering a pending execution, is by large enough punishment for him
I agree. They are not asking for clemency or release. They are asking for a life sentence with no parole instead of the death penalty. Given the circumstances, and for a guy who has repented of his ways, I see no problem with that and agree with rebbeim who are behind this petition.
Yes.
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I will not sign the petition because I am a supporter of the death penalty. I don't know what Halacha is involved in this case and don't understand why the Rabbis are involved. This man may be born Jewish but he certainly did not live a righteous life.
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I will not sign the petition because I am a supporter of the death penalty. I don't know what Halacha is involved in this case and don't understand why the Rabbis are involved. This man may be born Jewish but he certainly did not live a righteous life.
If you admit that you don't know the Hallacha for this case, then you you should support the Rabbis who know better, except if your own Rav rules differently
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Another side to this that we should consider is how it would look, in the eyes of the world (the goyim) if a bunch of us Jews rallied to spare this man's life after what he did. It might reasonably be argued that this would constitute a Hillul haShem. He did NOT live his life as a Jew. He fell in with the wrong crowd. He got involved with drugs and now --- he's sorry. Well guess what. The same could be said for any number of blacks and Hispanics. They don't deserve clemency and neither does this man. My two cents, for what it's worth.
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It is true that Hashem accepts the Teshuva of all Jewish neshamas.... This being said the fact that one does Teshuva to Hashem doesn't negate the fact that he took a human life and should receive punishment for this sin. If his Teshuva is sincere and it is accepted {which I believe Hashem accepts all sincere repentance} then he has nothing to worry about. He will be judged in heaven and may have another chance at life.... But this life is ruined and he should die...
Rabbi Shafier {who has a program @ A7 Radio} recently discussed this in his Shuir about Emmunah and Bitachon... Anyone who dies by violent means must have been judged for death by Hashem.... But the fact that Hashem has an evil decree on a person doesn't give any human the right to be the one to carry out the death sentence on the victim. But the victim is marked for death regardless of the murderers intentions. Free Will is one of Hashems most prime directives {Star Trek reference}.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1888
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Another side to this that we should consider is how it would look, in the eyes of the world (the goyim) if a bunch of us Jews rallied to spare this man's life after what he did. It might reasonably be argued that this would constitute a Hillul haShem. He did NOT live his life as a Jew. He fell in with the wrong crowd. He got involved with drugs and now --- he's sorry. Well guess what. The same could be said for any number of blacks and Hispanics. They don't deserve clemency and neither does this man. My two cents, for what it's worth.
In fact, drugs are not even an issue in Hallacha except for "Dina da malchuta dina" ( the religious obligation of a Jew to abide by the civil law in the Galut) and "Pikuach Nefesh" (the obligation to abstain from damaging one's own health), but niether of these mitzvot involve execution. Murder, in fact, involves execution according to Hallacha. But if Rabbis support the petition, they must have reason in this special case.
BTW, is US a moral authority to administer execution after they received Arafat ( a terrorist who murdered thosands of Jews) in the White House with the honours of a Haed of State?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams
Read about Tookie Williams, a black criminal who was executed in 2005... It was widely reported that he had repented {in a christian way}...
Stanley Tookie Williams III (December 29, 1953 – December 13, 2005), born in New Orleans, Louisiana was an early leader of the Crips, a notorious American street gang which had its roots in South Central Los Angeles in 1971. In 1979 he was convicted of four murders committed in the course of robberies, and he remained in prison for the rest of his life. Later on in his life, he became an author of several books including anti-gang and violence literature. In December 2005, he was executed.
Williams allegedly refused to help police investigate his gang, and was implicated in attacks on guards and other women, as well as multiple escape plots, however this was never proven. In 1993, Williams began making changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California. He renounced his gang affiliation and apologized for his role in founding the Crips. He also co-wrote children's books and participated in efforts intended to prevent youths from joining gangs.[1] A biographical TV-movie entitled Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story was made in 2004, and featured Jamie Foxx as Williams.
On December 13, 2005, Williams was executed by lethal injection after clemency and a four-week stay of execution were both rejected by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, amidst debate over the death penalty and whether Williams' anti-gang advocacy in prison represented genuine atonement. Williams was the second inmate in California to be executed in 2005.
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Another side to this that we should consider is how it would look, in the eyes of the world (the goyim) if a bunch of us Jews rallied to spare this man's life after what he did. It might reasonably be argued that this would constitute a Hillul haShem. He did NOT live his life as a Jew. He fell in with the wrong crowd. He got involved with drugs and now --- he's sorry. Well guess what. The same could be said for any number of blacks and Hispanics. They don't deserve clemency and neither does this man. My two cents, for what it's worth.
In fact, drugs are not even an issue in Hallacha except for "Dina da malchuta dina" ( the religious obligation of a Jew to abide by the civil law in the Galut) and "Pikuach Nefesh" (the obligation to abstain from damaging one's own health), but niether of these mitzvot involve execution. Murder, in fact, involves execution according to Hallacha. But if Rabbis support the petition, they must have reason in this special case.
BTW, is US a moral authority to administer execution after they received Arafat ( a terrorist who murdered thosands of Jews) in the White House with the honours of a Haed of State?
It's a very good point you bring up. An excellent point indeed and a good reason to oppose the death penalty. The State has no credibility to handle our money, run our nation or manage foreign affairs, let alone have the power of life and death over us (modified). That being said, I look at this not as just punishment by those who know best, rather as something bad that's happening to him as a result of his actions. It's like he got hit by a bus or struck by lightening. When bad things happen to bad people, I don't feel sorry for them.
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And I don't think there is any Hillul H" because Jews today don't use the capital punishment. PM Shamir conceded clemency to the only Arab terrorist that has ever been condemned to that penalty in the history of Israel. It would perhaps be a Hillul "H if Jews used capital punishment and then opposed it when a Jew is condemned. Besides, that petition is open to eveeryone, and I think it will be supported mostly by Gentiles who oppose capital punishment.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams
Read about Tookie Williams, a black criminal who was executed in 2005... It was widely reported that he had repented {in a christian way}...
Stanley Tookie Williams III (December 29, 1953 – December 13, 2005), born in New Orleans, Louisiana was an early leader of the Crips, a notorious American street gang which had its roots in South Central Los Angeles in 1971. In 1979 he was convicted of four murders committed in the course of robberies, and he remained in prison for the rest of his life. Later on in his life, he became an author of several books including anti-gang and violence literature. In December 2005, he was executed.
Williams allegedly refused to help police investigate his gang, and was implicated in attacks on guards and other women, as well as multiple escape plots, however this was never proven. In 1993, Williams began making changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California. He renounced his gang affiliation and apologized for his role in founding the Crips. He also co-wrote children's books and participated in efforts intended to prevent youths from joining gangs.[1] A biographical TV-movie entitled Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story was made in 2004, and featured Jamie Foxx as Williams.
On December 13, 2005, Williams was executed by lethal injection after clemency and a four-week stay of execution were both rejected by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, amidst debate over the death penalty and whether Williams' anti-gang advocacy in prison represented genuine atonement. Williams was the second inmate in California to be executed in 2005.
Muman, this is a totally different league. This black was a cold planning murderer who even threatened the jury. He was a professional criminal.
The other guy was in a situation, that got totally out of controll. I don't want to excuse what he did. But this two cases are not comparable.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams
Read about Tookie Williams, a black criminal who was executed in 2005... It was widely reported that he had repented {in a christian way}...
Stanley Tookie Williams III (December 29, 1953 – December 13, 2005), born in New Orleans, Louisiana was an early leader of the Crips, a notorious American street gang which had its roots in South Central Los Angeles in 1971. In 1979 he was convicted of four murders committed in the course of robberies, and he remained in prison for the rest of his life. Later on in his life, he became an author of several books including anti-gang and violence literature. In December 2005, he was executed.
Williams allegedly refused to help police investigate his gang, and was implicated in attacks on guards and other women, as well as multiple escape plots, however this was never proven. In 1993, Williams began making changes in his behavior, and became an anti-gang activist while on Death Row in California. He renounced his gang affiliation and apologized for his role in founding the Crips. He also co-wrote children's books and participated in efforts intended to prevent youths from joining gangs.[1] A biographical TV-movie entitled Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story was made in 2004, and featured Jamie Foxx as Williams.
On December 13, 2005, Williams was executed by lethal injection after clemency and a four-week stay of execution were both rejected by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, amidst debate over the death penalty and whether Williams' anti-gang advocacy in prison represented genuine atonement. Williams was the second inmate in California to be executed in 2005.
Muman, this is a totally different league. This black was a cold planning murderer who even threatened the jury. He was a professional criminal.
The other guy was in a situation, that got totally out of controll. I don't want to excuse what he did. But this two cases are not comparable.
In questions of repentence it doesn't matter how heinous the crime... The question, in my opinion, is whether it is possible for humans to be forgiven for murder. No matter how much repentance is done the victim will never be brought back.
PS: The perp in this case had prior criminal convictions if I read the story correctly {he was on probation for burglary and in possession of a firearm which he was discharging in public}.
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I can't say that I am moved by any of what the petition site lists as mitigating factors. Very, very few people have pleasant childhoods, and most don't grow up to kill. Deal with it. If he is really and truly repentant that's good, but G-d establishes governments to do justice, not blindly hand out mercy. Mercy is solely in the hands of the victims of a crime.
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Muman, this is a totally different league. This black was a cold planning murderer who even threatened the jury. He was a professional criminal.
The other guy was in a situation, that got totally out of controll. I don't want to excuse what he did. But this two cases are not comparable.
I have to agree with Muman on this one. Nobody forced this guy to fall in with the wrong crowd, get into drugs, and murder. This was of his own free will. The fact that he was not as prolific as Tookie only proves that negroes are better at mass murder than Jews are, not that this guy should receive pity.
The law needs to judge all murderers the same regardless of whether or not they have repented or had religious conversions. In Tookie's case I very much doubt that he did repent. In this guy's case, I do not know, but nonetheless the law must be impartial and just.
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Someone might ought to ask Chaim about this on ask JTF and then I might make a decision to sign this.
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I did not check out the site but I am wondering what the Halachic issue is.
Is it that we are supposed to redeem a Jew from punishment by a non-Jewish system of justice?
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Muman, you should ask your Rav about all your doubts about Hallachot. As a Jew, it's good for you to learn about all those Hallachot even when they not incumbent to your observance. I was only studying when I was in the conversion process which never completed.
As far as I know, perfect Teshuva can grant pardon for any crime, including the worst kind of murder. But the forgiven sinner is exempt only from punishment in afterlife (Gehinom), earthly punishments which are delivered by Heaven and, sometimes, earthly punishments which should be delivered by a Jewish court ( if the sinner ought to be judged by Hallacha, Jews and perhaps Gentiles in EY) if that court does not exist at the moment and the punishment is to be administered by Heaven due to the lack of that court. Teshuva does not grant clemency regarding earthly punishment administered by a Sanhedrin.
Regarding a Jew judged by a Gentile court, Jews should not provide assistance the Gentile party in any litigation or accusation in the trial if the way to prove him guilty or debtor or the punishment he may receive is different from the one Hallacha would give him. It is also forbidden to report a Jew to a Gentile authority because he might be judged disfavourably due to Jew-hatred, but I imagine Ravs might have issued some new ruling in the last case.
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This guy has spent 25 years in jail simply because of his continuous appeals (well documented on the internet). During this time he was maintained presumably at the considerable expense of the hard-working US taxpayer. In contrast, he didn't give the Park Ranger any time to appeal, and shot her promptly in the back of the head as soon as they had finished beating her up. The only possible reason now to support him is opposition to the death penalty per se, which is often considered a reasonable approach, but is not one to which I personally subscribe.
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I signed the Petition as a result of what I read on the following Jewish site that focuses on the Torah:
http://www.aish.com/tp/ss/ssw/83226867.html
What stands out for me is Martin Grossman's IQ is only 77 AND that he probably didn't receive adequate legal representation during the trial process.
In terms of what was written in the article, the following is the goal:
"The goal is to stop the execution called for February 16th and to call for a proper clemency hearing to determine if the Death Penalty is truly appropriate in this case and to ask for a sentence of life in prison without parole".
In essence, the goal is to re-exam whether Martin Grossman should be executed, based on the circumstances of this case. I don't know the answer to that. But at the very least, I think it would be a huge mistake if he was executed without a proper clemency hearing.
Chaim, if you see this thread, your opinion on this situation would be greatly appreciated.
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I have also been asked to sign this by my Chabad Rabbis. Just about all Jewish organizations are going ahead and supporting this cause. At this time I guess I agree with eb22...
PS: Post '613'3
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I did not check out the site but I am wondering what the Halachic issue is.
Is it that we are supposed to redeem a Jew from punishment by a non-Jewish system of justice?
If they choose to live under a non-Jewish government then I would hope they would get the same punishment as anyone else who committed a heinous crime.
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I did not check out the site but I am wondering what the Halachic issue is.
Is it that we are supposed to redeem a Jew from punishment by a non-Jewish system of justice?
If they choose to live under a non-Jewish government then I would hope they would get the same punishment as anyone else who committed a heinous crime.
The question is not about what the Gentile Govt. does. The Hallachic question is that a Jew should not take part in or support any trial or punishment dictated in a way not according to Hallacha. The same applies to Gentiles, we must not support or assist any trial which is done not accordingly to the Noahide standards. The Noahide Code permits executions of Gentile murderers by Gentile courts outside EY even today when there is not Jewish Sanhedrin. The question here is whether execution applies in cases of partially mentally diosabled persons and whether the prodedures for trial and the method of execution fits the Noahide standards. Also what Gentiles must do wih a Jewish killer if they cannot have get him punished by a Jewish court.
Even if Grossman were not Jewish, I doubt execution is hallachically permited on him. Hallacha requieres two valid Torah observant Jews to execute a Jew. For a Gentile one eye witness is enogh if that witness is a perfect Noahide. If not, two eyewitness are neccessary. Pleading guilty generally is not enogh in a Jewish court, I don't know if it's valid in a Gentile court.
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I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.
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I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.
Noahide is not a religion, it's the Code for all Gentile nations and individuals.
Now, the US law trusts the Executive power of many States to administer clemency on special cases, after the crimnal has been legally condemned to capital punishment by the judiciary. If this were in fact one of those cases, and clemency is not awarded, the Executive could be guilty of murder befor H" for he would have had retained the clemency the State trusted him to deliver.
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I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.
Noahide is not a religion, it's the Code for all Gentile nations and individuals.
Not for me. I'm a Christian and so I follow Christian rules of behavior.
Now, the US law trusts the Executive power of many States to administer clemency on special cases, after the crimnal has been legally condemned to capital punishment by the judiciary. If this were in fact one of those cases, and clemency is not awarded, the Executive could be guilty of murder befor H" for he would have had retained the clemency the State trusted him to deliver.
If the person being executed is a murderer they shouldn't in most cases get any mercy.
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On this issue I have to agree with Rubystars. I do not know the passages to which Raul is referring but we don't live in a theocracy. This is not some random innocent victim, but a vile murderer.
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If the person being executed is a murderer they shouldn't in most cases get any mercy.
If the State aimed clemency to be limited to non-murderers condmned to capital punishment, then that State would have written it in its law. The fact that the State law gives the executive the power to grant clemency without excluding murderers shows that the State wants clemency granted also to murderers in some cases. If this were some of those cases and the Executive Power does not grant it, they would be blocking the clemency they received from the State to deliver. Since the Executive it's not a judge and has no power to condemn anyone, blocking clemency (if the case is one of those for which clemency was meant) would be murder.
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If the State aimed clemency to be limited to non-murderers condmned to capital punishment, then that State would have written it in its law. The fact that the State law gives the executive the power to grant clemency without excluding murderers shows that the State wants clemency granted also to murderers in some cases. If this were some of those cases and the Executive Power does not grant it, they would be blocking the clemency they received from the State to deliver. Since the Executive it's not a judge and has no power to condemn anyone, blocking clemency (if the case is one of those for which clemency was meant) would be murder.
99% of murderers in America and around the world get mercy, either in the form of a pardon or an absurdly lenient sentence.
The fact that this Grossman fellow is still breathing air is a testament to how weak our punitive justice system is.
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Attacking a law enforcement officer was bad enough he then killed her with her own gun. The way I see it he had 25 more years here on the Earth then his victim did. Its sad he didn't use them years in a more productive manor. If we start restraining the hands of the legal system to cater to religious whims the system will never survive. Here in America we have just to many different groups to start nonsense like that. We have one set of laws and they should pertain to anyone who commits a crime. The system has housed and fed this guy at tax payer expense for almost 30 years to allow his appeal. The appeal time is over and its time for the sentence to be carried out.
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99% of murderers in America and around the world get mercy, either in the form of a pardon or an absurdly lenient sentence.
If you admit that 99% of murderers are not executed, why should a man with an IQ of 77 and under medication for epilepsy be?
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We have one set of laws and they should pertain to anyone who commits a crime. The system has housed and fed this guy at tax payer expense for almost 30 years to allow his appeal. The appeal time is over and its time for the sentence to be carried out.
Very good post! :clap: :usa:
99% of murderers in America and around the world get mercy, either in the form of a pardon or an absurdly lenient sentence.
The fact that this Grossman fellow is still breathing air is a testament to how weak our punitive justice system is.
Yes he needs to pay!
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Rubystars, you are a Christian. I don't know which is your denomination but most Christian Churches believe that all men are born guilty and deserve Hell and they are pardoned freely by Jesus' sacrifice. If a clemency with no cost for the person who signs it is wrong, why would Jesus pay your debt when it cost Him suffering crucifixion?
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Rubystars, you are a Christian. I don't know which is your denomination but most Christian Churches believe that all men are born guilty and deserve Hell and they are pardoned freely by Jesus' sacrifice. If a clemency with no cost for the person who signs it is wrong, why would Jesus pay your debt when it cost Him suffering crucifixion?
I think if you commit a crime against other people then other people have a right to hold you accountable for it. It's up to the other people that you sinned against to show you mercy or not. Of course it's a good thing to show mercy in many cases, but in some cases, such as a vicious murder, showing mercy to the perpetrator betrays the victims of the crime. Justice needs to be served.
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I don't care what religion someone is, whether they're a Jew, a Noahide, or follow the flying spaghetti monster. If you murder someone you should be punished for it. If they don't like living under Gentile justice they should have gone to Israel.
Rubystars, I respect what you are saying. Yet, Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era ( 1948 through today ) doesn't base their laws on the Torah.
Tragically, it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel. The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government. G-d willing, a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.
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Rubystars, you are a Christian. I don't know which is your denomination but most Christian Churches believe that all men are born guilty and deserve Hell and they are pardoned freely by Jesus' sacrifice. If a clemency with no cost for the person who signs it is wrong, why would Jesus pay your debt when it cost Him suffering crucifixion?
Raul, Noachidism is a simplified form of Torah Judaism for Gentiles. I have heard of no Torah Jews making blanket arguments for why society should pity evil people, and certainly not Chaim.
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Tragically, it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel. The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government. G-d willing, a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.
Apart from the fact that Israel protects Arabs more than Jews, there are other reason why Israeli Govt. today cannot be considered a Torah based one. Torah Obeservant Jews are discriminated in many ways. If you want to work on the radio or TV, they make yopu work during Shabbat. Abortion is not properly prevented. About 50,000 unborn children are executed in Israel through abortion and the Govt does nothing.
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Rubystars, I respect what you are saying. Yet, Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era ( 1948 through today ) doesn't base their laws on the Torah.
I just get irritated when it seems like some people think that a criminal should get away with a crime they committed in a Gentile country just because they're Jewish. I would never say that someone should be let off the hook for a heinous crime just because they're a Christian or because they're white or because I have something else in common with them.
Tragically, it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel. The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government. G-d willing, a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.
I hope that Israel can become a more Jewish-friendly place and I think it's very sad that it's not as much as it should be at the moment. However if there is a problem halachically with a Jewish person being judged under a Gentile government then why do Jewish people live under a Gentile government? I think if someone commits a crime they need to pay for it without special treatment.
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Tragically, it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel. The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government. G-d willing, a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.
Apart from the fact that Israel protects Arabs more than Jews, there are other reason why Israeli Govt. today cannot be considered a Torah based one. Torah Obeservant Jews are discriminated in many ways. If you want to work on the radio or TV, they make yopu work during Shabbat. Abortion is not properly prevented. About 50,000 unborn children are executed in Israel through abortion and the Govt does nothing.
In addition to what you mentioned and arguably as much as anything, the Israeli Governments of the last several decades have been willing to give up Israeli land promised to the Jewish people by G-d, in exchange for so called peace. This shouldn't be acceptable to anyone.
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Rubystars, I respect what you are saying. Yet, Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era ( 1948 through today ) doesn't base their laws on the Torah.
I just get irritated when it seems like some people think that a criminal should get away with a crime they committed in a Gentile country just because they're Jewish. I would never say that someone should be let off the hook for a heinous crime just because they're a Christian or because they're white or because I have something else in common with them.
Tragically, it seems like the Arab Muslim Nazis having more rights than Jews in Israel. The fact that Yasser Arafat and 80,000 Arab Muslim Nazi Terrorists were allowed into Israel and Chaim is still not allowed speaks volumes about the Israeli Government. G-d willing, a Kahanist government will be elected in Israel before epic tragedy occurs.
I hope that Israel can become a more Jewish-friendly place and I think it's very sad that it's not as much as it should be at the moment. However if there is a problem halachically with a Jewish person being judged under a Gentile government then why do Jewish people live under a Gentile government? I think if someone commits a crime they need to pay for it without special treatment.
The way I'm viewing the situation, the issues are Martin Grossman's IQ is apparently only 77 and that he apparently didn't have adequate legal representation when he was on trial. I remain unsure whether he should be executed. But I'm uncomfortable if he doesn't get a clemency hearing.
The following is some additional info regarding IQ's in the 70's range. It helps illustrate why I believe the process shouldn't be rushed:
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http://www.kids-iq-tests.com/IQ-scores-70-79.html
IQ Scores 70 - 79 | Low Intelligence
According to the Wechsler Intelligence Scales, an IQ score in the range of 70 to 79 is classified as in the low intelligence range/mentally retarded. If you have arrived at this site because you or your child took an online IQ test and received an IQ score in the range of 70 to 9 do not be alarmed. It is not unusual to become nervous or distracted and perform less than what you or your child would normally score under less stressful or distracting situations. Furthermore, one IQ test whether taken online or in a clinical setting is not the final say in what is deemed a persons actual intelligence quotient. Many psychologists may perform up to three different intelligence tests to arrive at a definitive IQ score. Moreover, an IQ score can be off as high as 10 to 15 points depending on the test taken and the situation of the person sitting for the exam. So if you or your child scored a 70 on an IQ test, it is quite possible that the correct IQ score could be around 85 which is a low normal IQ score.
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If it's determined that Martin Grossman's IQ is indeed only 77, a FAIR Clemency hearing under State Law in Florida is all one can ask for under the circumstances.
One additional thought regarding the Jewish issue in general. Something that Chaim touched on many times. In the U.S., Gentile Judges have been more fair to Jewish defendents than Jewish judges. Tragically, Jonathan Pollard and Chaim found this out first hand.
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Rubystars, I respect what you are saying. Yet, Chaim has given the strong impression ( at least for me ) that the Israeli Government of the modern era ( 1948 through today ) doesn't base their laws on the Torah.
I just get irritated when it seems like some people think that a criminal should get away with a crime they committed in a Gentile country just because they're Jewish. I would never say that someone should be let off the hook for a heinous crime just because they're a Christian or because they're white or because I have something else in common with them.
I would say this and I have said this.
It is true, that I would never have mercy on a Somali quranimal who is within the IQ range of Grossman. But I will judge everytime in favour of a Jew, even a selfhating one (as long as he did nothing what would endanger my survival) and of cause I would do the same with a certain part of the Christians.
Before a not so long time ago, I shared your oppinion on this issue, but I think it is wrong. We have to be biased in order to survive. Ruby, the times that are coming will be very hard. I see it.
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I am quite confused over the reasoning why this killers sentence should not be carried out after being on death row for 25 years. Why does the fact that he is Jewish even play into the issue? As far as IQ half the monkeys in jail are not there because they are rocket scientists. Should all their sentences be commuted also? This was not some teenager in his first brush with the law that panicked. He had been through the system and should have known better then to violate parole. Its clear that this guy was well back on the old road to crime. Lets be reasonable here and not destroy the law more then it has already been destroyed. This guy took the cops gun and shot her in the back of the head. He was smart enough to know dead men tell no tales. I am sure after 25 years in the system if there was any question the prosecution of the case was faulty some hot shot liberal group would have used it to show how bad the death penalty is. From what I see this guy got fair treatment from the system. Better treatment then he gave his victim anyway.
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Rubystars, we are not discussing if he deserves more clemency for being a Jew. What we are discussing is whether Jews should be more concerned and ask for clemency for one of their brethren. Certainly, under equal circumnstances, people generally care more about those related to them. In the same way as we would help any relative who is in need, and that doesn't mean that we claim that others in the same situation in a far away country deserve less help.
Ulli, I am not biassed. If I had to decide for a Somali with a 77 IQ I'd also sign clemency.
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It's true that you should generally give people the benefit of the doubt if they are from your own group as a sign of loyalty. However once it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty of a heinous crime, is it still right to defend them?
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He had a gun in his hand and willfully let her confiscate it. If he had planned a murder, why didn't he use his own gun? And struggling with her after she had alredy produced her gun and shot was also dangerous for him. It's clear that he acted on panic, probably under the effect of medication or under a crisis due to his disease.
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He had a gun in his hand and willfully let her confiscate it. If he had planned a murder, why didn't he use his own gun? And struggling with her after she had alredy produced her gun and shot was also dangerous for him. It's clear that he acted on panic, probably under the effect of medication or under a crisis due to his disease.
He has been found guilty of murder in the country in which he chose to live. Repeated appeals failed to overturn this verdict. I cannot understand what there is to discuss, unless you really are hinting that Jews in the US should not have to share the same legal system as Gentiles.
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He had a gun in his hand and willfully let her confiscate it. If he had planned a murder, why didn't he use his own gun? And struggling with her after she had alredy produced her gun and shot was also dangerous for him. It's clear that he acted on panic, probably under the effect of medication or under a crisis due to his disease.
He has been found guilty of murder in the country in which he chose to live. Repeated appeals failed to overturn this verdict. I cannot understand what there is to discuss, unless you really are hinting that Jews in the US should not have to share the same legal system as Gentiles.
Of course the legal system should be the same for U.S. citizens regardless of their religion, race, creed, etc.
Having said that, how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77 ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 ) are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate? Basically, part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.
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It's true that you should generally give people the benefit of the doubt if they are from your own group as a sign of loyalty. However once it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty of a heinous crime, is it still right to defend them?
I think yes.
If a Muslim would have done such a crime in my country he would have set free after 3-4 years on parole. But if one of us would do the same crime he wouldn't see daylight again, like this poor Jew. There are explicit orders given to the courts and persecution officers to do so [1]. Why should we sacrify our people for so called "unbiased justice" if there is no justice at all? I hate the gouvernment and even a murderer from my own group or an allied group (as far he don't want to murder me or my friends) I love more than this bolschewik lying system of crooks. Now you know it.
[1] http://www.pi-news.net/2010/02/nrw-schoeffe-bestaetigt-migrantenbonus/
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Having said that, how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77 ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 ) are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate? Basically, part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.
On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.
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Apart from the fact that Israel protects Arabs more than Jews, there are other reason why Israeli Govt. today cannot be considered a Torah based one. Torah Obeservant Jews are discriminated in many ways. If you want to work on the radio or TV, they make yopu work during Shabbat. Abortion is not properly prevented. About 50,000 unborn children are executed in Israel through abortion and the Govt does nothing.
What does any of this have to do with Arabs and Israeli Bolsheviks?
This is a vile, scumbag murderer who is in my opinion even worse than an Arab. Arabs are like wild animals who don't know any better. This is a Jew who committed a premeditated, cold-blooded murder.
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Having said that, how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77 ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 ) are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate? Basically, part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.
On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.
I disagree. It's hard to imagine most U.S. Blacks having an IQ below 80. There are many blacks who commit crimes who have average or even above average IQ's. An example of this is the blacks who con people out of money in " 3 card Monte" games. There's absolutely no way that someone with an IQ below 80 can effectively manipulate a " 3 Card Monte" game.
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Before a not so long time ago, I shared your oppinion on this issue, but I think it is wrong. We have to be biased in order to survive. Ruby, the times that are coming will be very hard. I see it.
That's an interesting point, Ulli.
P.S. I don't have an opinion about this particular case.
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Having said that, how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77 ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 ) are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate? Basically, part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.
On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.
I disagree. It's hard to imagine most U.S. Blacks having an IQ below 80. There are many blacks who commit crimes who have average or even above average IQ's. An example of this is the blacks who con people out of money in " 3 card Monte" games. There's absolutely no way that someone with an IQ below 80 can effectively manipulate a " 3 Card Monte" game.
There have been a lot of studies about the connection between IQ and criminal tendencies. There IS a very strong correlation. The lower the IQ, the more likely the person is to be a criminal.
The IQ of American Blacks is 80 or 85 (depending on the study. THe IQ of Africans is 70.
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I think if you commit a crime against other people then other people have a right to hold you accountable for it. It's up to the other people that you sinned against to show you mercy or not. Of course it's a good thing to show mercy in many cases, but in some cases, such as a vicious murder, showing mercy to the perpetrator betrays the victims of the crime. Justice needs to be served.
According to the NT in which you are supposed to believe, not only private sins have been pardoned but also sins against others. Paul killed many Christians and was forgiven and made an Apostle and even a Saint (in those Churches who revere Saints)
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My take on this...... if G-d wants him to live, he will not be executed. If G-d wants him to die, he will be executed.
Sometimes we forget that G-d can intervien at any time, and if G-d does not, it was meant to be.
Shalom - Dox
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Having said that, how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77 ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 ) are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate? Basically, part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.
On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.
I disagree. It's hard to imagine most U.S. Blacks having an IQ below 80. There are many blacks who commit crimes who have average or even above average IQ's. An example of this is the blacks who con people out of money in " 3 card Monte" games. There's absolutely no way that someone with an IQ below 80 can effectively manipulate a " 3 Card Monte" game.
There have been a lot of studies about the connection between IQ and criminal tendencies. There IS a very strong correlation. The lower the IQ, the more likely the person is to be a criminal.
The IQ of American Blacks is 80 or 85 (depending on the study. THe IQ of Africans is 70.
A study that I came across several hours ago mentioned that the average IQ of American Blacks is 85. I'm skeptical of these results, if going under the assumption of measuring pure intelligence. The cultural factor with the majority of blacks could easily lead to the results in an IQ test being lower than the actual IQ. An example of the cultural factor is from Chaim's commentary regarding an Ice Cream Shop. Especially regarding the black individual who watched the other black individual lick the ice cream. Based on Chaim's description of that individual, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if his tested IQ measured 10 to 15 points lower than his actual natural intelligence:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,43051.0.html
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My take on this...... if G-d wants him to live, he will not be executed. If G-d wants him to die, he will be executed.
Sometimes we forget that G-d can intervien at any time, and if G-d does not, it was meant to be.
Shalom - Dox
Dox, I agree that G-d can intervene at any time. Yet, for those of us like myself who belief that Martin Grossman should get a clemency hearing to determine if life in prison is a more appropriate sentence than execution, I don't think we can depend on miracles. This is a world of action.
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I think if you commit a crime against other people then other people have a right to hold you accountable for it. It's up to the other people that you sinned against to show you mercy or not. Of course it's a good thing to show mercy in many cases, but in some cases, such as a vicious murder, showing mercy to the perpetrator betrays the victims of the crime. Justice needs to be served.
According to the NT in which you are supposed to believe, not only private sins have been pardoned but also sins against others. Paul killed many Christians and was forgiven and made an Apostle and even a Saint (in those Churches who revere Saints)
He made it up to the Christian people in some ways by doing a lot of important work after that. Don't you see that the others had to accept him as a leader in order for this to happen?
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its happening today at 6 pm
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Thank you to Pope Benedict XVI for your efforts in trying to grant Martin Grossman the opportunity for a clemency hearing:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/180712
Last-Minute Push to Save Martin Grossman's Life
Reported: 18:41 PM - Feb/16/10
(IsraelNN.com)
Pope Benedict XVI has joined the growing number of public officials asking for leniency for Martin Edward Grossman, scheduled to be executed in Florida on Tuesday for the 1984 murder of Margaret Parks, a 26-year-old wildlife park officer in Florida.
In a letter to Florida Governor Charlie Crist, Archbishop Fernando Filoni, writing on behalf of the Pope, said that Grossman "has repented and is now a changed person, having become a man of faith," and asked for "whatever steps may be possible to save the life of Mr. Grossman.''
With time growing short, a team of top attorneys made a final case for a stay of execution on Tuesday morning, based on the fact that Grossman was mentally impaired and that the murder was not premeditated. Efforts are still being made to seek an 11th-hour stay of execution for Grossman from Governor Crist. A phone number has been publicized at which the governor can be reached in the coming hours - 850-488-5603 - and asked to spare the life of Martin Grossman.
His Hebrew name is Michoel Yechiel ben Miriam Sorah.
Other public figures who have come to the defense of Grossman include Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, as well as the Chief Rabbis of Israel. The execution is scheduled for 6 PM Eastern time Tuesday.
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This is the letter that Florida Gov. Charlie Crist sent me and everyone else who wrote to him asking for a Clemency Hearing for Martin Grossman. Unless Charlie Crist has a change of heart in the next 2 minutes, his days as an elected official are coming to an end:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/48607/Gov+Crist+Responds+To+Emails+About+Grossman+-+30+Minutes+Before+Execution.html
Gov Crist Responds To Emails About Grossman – 30 Minutes Before Execution
February 16, 2010 5:30PM EST: Thousands of people have been emailing Florida Governor Crist about Martin Grossman for the past week. A response has just been emailed out by the Governor – just 30 minutes before the scheduled execution. YWN has received hundreds of emails from readers who have just received the response posted below:
Thank you for contacting me and sharing your concerns about the execution of Martin Grossman.
On December 13, 1984, Mr. Grossman violated the terms of his probation by leaving Pasco County and having a stolen firearm in his possession. In a routine stop, Florida Fish and Wildlife Officer Margaret Park found the weapon. When she reached for the radio in her patrol car to report him, Mr. Grossman attacked her with her own large flashlight, beating her over the head and shoulders 20 to 30 times. When Officer Park tried to fight back, Mr. Grossman took her .357 Magnum revolver and shot her in the back of the head, killing her.
Mr. Grossman took several carefully planned steps to cover up this horrible crime. The weapon was buried, and Mr. Grossman attempted to burn his clothes and shoes, which were later disposed of in a nearby lake. The following day, Mr. Grossman thoroughly cleaned the van and changed its tires to mislead law enforcement.
Officer Park’s autopsy revealed lacerations on top of her head, hemorrhaging inside the scalp and extensive fracturing of the skull. All of these injuries resulted from Mr. Grossman’s attack. The facts of this crime clearly meet the definition of heinous, atrocious and cruel, and his actions afterward demonstrate his well-reasoned attempts to cover it up.
The courts have fully reviewed Mr. Grossman’s legal claims, and his conviction and sentence have been affirmed by both the Florida Supreme Court and the United States Supreme Court. Based on the facts and exhaustion of legal proceedings, and in accordance with Florida law, I signed his death warrant on January 12, 2010.
Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.
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It's 6:01 PM. I'm not sure they did the right or the wrong thing.
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Ulli I've been thinking a lot about what you said and I have to admit you have a point.
The establishment will never treat whites fairly and gives enemies such as Muslims an unfair advantage in the justice system.
However I think if someone is proven to have done something wrong it really depends on the degree of how severe it is whether or not I would still have sympathy for them. If someone was "guilty" of "murdering" Muslims I would feel very differently than if someone was guilty of murdering innocent little children or murdering Christians or Jews.
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I don't know how clemency is exaclty understood in Florida, but if it is meant for special cases regardless the trial circumstances (as it is here in Argentina - for some life sentencies, not capital because it does not exist), being that the power was entrusted to the Executive by the people, blocking that clemncy arbitrarily might render them guilty of murder before Heaven.