JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ulli on July 27, 2010, 11:33:08 AM
-
It was tested and the canidates were not able to differ between real meat and the imitation. I don't know if it is kosher and if it is imported to Israel or USA. Perhaps a business opportunity, who knows.
http://www.valess.de/
The advertising for it is a mother telling the people: Now I am able to feed my little raptors without meat. :::D
-
Since it contains dairy product I think the market for this product is very small. It must be either very tasty, or very cheap (which I doubt), to make a profit.
-
Since it contains dairy product I think the market for this product is very small. It must be either very tasty, or very cheap (which I doubt), to make a profit.
You are right. It is for shure not cheap. But the test persons said it is tasty.
Basically it is a kind of cheese.
Why is it a problem, that it is made from dairy?
-
I'm not a Jewish expert on this topic, but just so that you know, it can't have any meat powder flavoring in it either and the dairy has to come from a kosher animal.
Despite this, there might be some religious Jews who might argue that having something dairy that taste like meat and mix it with real dairy might give the wrong idea of mixing milk with meat...
-
Vegans don't eat dairy products and they are a major target to meat substitutes. Health-conscious carnivores are also a major target group. But processed milk- basically hard cheese, is not particularly healthy, nor lean.
-
I'm not a Jewish expert on this topic, but just so that you know, it can't have any meat powder flavoring in it either and the dairy has to come from a kosher animal.
Despite this, there might be some religious Jews who might argue that having something dairy that taste like meat and mix it with real dairy might give the wrong idea of mixing milk with meat...
There are kosher dairy restaurants that have "soy-based" fake meat products that they combine with cheese (ie "chicken" parmagian) , so probably if there is no meat whatsoever in this product, it's very possible it can be eaten or certified as kosher.
-
I'm not a Jewish expert on this topic, but just so that you know, it can't have any meat powder flavoring in it either and the dairy has to come from a kosher animal.
Despite this, there might be some religious Jews who might argue that having something dairy that taste like meat and mix it with real dairy might give the wrong idea of mixing milk with meat...
There are kosher dairy restaurants that have "soy-based" fake meat products that they combine with cheese (ie "chicken" parmagian) , so probably if there is no meat whatsoever in this product, it's very possible it can be eaten or certified as kosher.
But when you have imitation meat mixed with milk isn't it against the spirit of Kashrut to eat these things? What's the consensus of it?
-
Interesting thoughts on this issue. I think Zelhar, you have a very important point.
So basically mainly Jews could be interested in this product if at all.
Theoretically if you would use only this kind of meat you would need only one kitchen. So it would save lots of money.
But traditional people live nearly always traditional. So they would not go for artificial products and would prefer the real stuff.
You see Dr. Dan here. I think lots of others would have the same problems of consciousness conscience like him.
-
I'm not a Jewish expert on this topic, but just so that you know, it can't have any meat powder flavoring in it either and the dairy has to come from a kosher animal.
Despite this, there might be some religious Jews who might argue that having something dairy that taste like meat and mix it with real dairy might give the wrong idea of mixing milk with meat...
There are kosher dairy restaurants that have "soy-based" fake meat products that they combine with cheese (ie "chicken" parmagian) , so probably if there is no meat whatsoever in this product, it's very possible it can be eaten or certified as kosher.
But when you have imitation meat mixed with milk isn't it against the spirit of Kashrut to eat these things? What's the consensus of it?
Apparently not according to the Vaad of Kashrut of Greater Washington which certified such a restaurant where I once ate. There were many Torah Jews eating there and it had certification with the imitation meat products. I think kashrut is really about what you are actually eating, not a "spirit" of the law. If it's soy, it's soy.
-
Well there is a question of whether a Jewish observer might think that they are eating milk and meat and becoming confused. I believe that it should be well known that what is being eaten doesn't violate the mitzvot.
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,2220607/Can-I-drink-soy-milk-at-a-meal-with-meat.html
Mrs. Esty Davidson: Welcome. I'll be with you in a moment...
Chana: Is it okay to drink soy milk with a meal that has red meat?
Mrs. Esty Davidson: if it's non-dairy, it's okay, but serve it in the original container
Mrs. Esty Davidson: so that nobody at the table (or even you yourself) should think it's milk and meat
Mrs. Esty Davidson: or even imagine that it is
Chana: Okay, that's a good idea. Thanks for your help!
Mrs. Esty Davidson: you're welcome
Mrs. Esty Davidson: (it's not my idea - it's the law! :))1
-
I figured that is the case that it isn't about taste. But if it isn't about taste then why is poultry a prohibition with dairy? 8)
I'm not a Jewish expert on this topic, but just so that you know, it can't have any meat powder flavoring in it either and the dairy has to come from a kosher animal.
Despite this, there might be some religious Jews who might argue that having something dairy that taste like meat and mix it with real dairy might give the wrong idea of mixing milk with meat...
There are kosher dairy restaurants that have "soy-based" fake meat products that they combine with cheese (ie "chicken" parmagian) , so probably if there is no meat whatsoever in this product, it's very possible it can be eaten or certified as kosher.
But when you have imitation meat mixed with milk isn't it against the spirit of Kashrut to eat these things? What's the consensus of it?
Apparently not according to the Vaad of Kashrut of Greater Washington which certified such a restaurant where I once ate. There were many Torah Jews eating there and it had certification with the imitation meat products. I think kashrut is really about what you are actually eating, not a "spirit" of the law. If it's soy, it's soy.
-
There is an issue with Maris Ayin... Or there used to be...
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-kosher-cons-handbk.htm
9) Maris Ayin -
The Torah states, “V’heeyesem Niki’im”58 - a Yid must be “clean” in the eyes of his neighbors, and must not perform even permissible activities that appear to be incorrect. This is known as Maris Ayin. Therefore, a person should not serve something that appears to be dairy with meat59 and vice versa. However, if a commonly used substitute for dairy is being eaten it is permissible to serve it with meat, even though it looks like a dairy item.60 There was a time when serving pareve ice cream or sticks of margarine at a fleishig banquet was questionable, because people thought the caterer was serving real ice cream or butter with meat.
Nowadays, these pareve items are commonly used and, therefore, are
permissible at a meat meal. Similarly, soy based burgers and pareve non-meat hot dogs are readily available and may be eaten with dairy. However, if someone produced a pareve product that looks like steak, one would not be allowed to eat it with dairy, because of maris ayin.
-
sounds good, but maybe unhealthy. If that thing comes to India, theres a huge potential market for it
Vegans don't eat dairy products and they are a major target to meat substitutes. Health-conscious carnivores are also a major target group. But processed milk- basically hard cheese, is not particularly healthy, nor lean.
hmm, almost everyone in india who claim to be vegans, do eat dairy products.
-
I still hate veggie burgers.
(http://forladiesbyladies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/getty_rm_photo_of_veggie_burger.jpg)
-
this will also help the astronauts who like consuming meat, considering animal meat may not be available to them.
Scientists are also working on creating meat by cell culture, but it remains to be seen if our cultures will accept cultured meat ;D
-
sounds good, but maybe unhealthy. If that thing comes to India, theres a huge potential market for it Vegans don't eat dairy products and they are a major target to meat substitutes. Health-conscious carnivores are also a major target group. But processed milk- basically hard cheese, is not particularly healthy, nor lean.
hmm, almost everyone in india who claim to be vegans, do eat dairy products.
I think people who eat dairy (or eggs) but no meat are called vegetarians.
-
I figured that is the case that it isn't about taste. But if it isn't about taste then why is poultry a prohibition with dairy? 8)
I'm not a Jewish expert on this topic, but just so that you know, it can't have any meat powder flavoring in it either and the dairy has to come from a kosher animal.
Despite this, there might be some religious Jews who might argue that having something dairy that taste like meat and mix it with real dairy might give the wrong idea of mixing milk with meat...
There are kosher dairy restaurants that have "soy-based" fake meat products that they combine with cheese (ie "chicken" parmagian) , so probably if there is no meat whatsoever in this product, it's very possible it can be eaten or certified as kosher.
But when you have imitation meat mixed with milk isn't it against the spirit of Kashrut to eat these things? What's the consensus of it?
Apparently not according to the Vaad of Kashrut of Greater Washington which certified such a restaurant where I once ate. There were many Torah Jews eating there and it had certification with the imitation meat products. I think kashrut is really about what you are actually eating, not a "spirit" of the law. If it's soy, it's soy.
From what I understand, that was a gezera from the Talmudic times in which they counted poultry as "meat" even though it is really not meat, because of the worry of mixing it up with meat and accidentally eating meat with cheese instead of chicken with cheese. One of the tannaim states his opinion that we can eat chicken with dairy, but his view is rejected by the Talmud. Things back then were different, before the times of packaged foods, etc, so I'm not sure exactly what the issues were, but in any case, we don't extend that gezera (as with Talmudic gezerot in general) to include more than what the rabbis of the Talmud included as far as I know.
-
When I was not trying to consciously follow any Jewish precepts, I have eaten seafood and enjoyed it, but I cannot eat milk with meat, cannot. I dont know why. I dont think it has anything to do with it being forbidden, I just have never been able to think of it without having a negative reaction. Incidently, this is nothing against anyone on the forum who enjoys a Philly cheesesteak or cheeseburger.
-
I figured that is the case that it isn't about taste. But if it isn't about taste then why is poultry a prohibition with dairy? 8)
I'm not a Jewish expert on this topic, but just so that you know, it can't have any meat powder flavoring in it either and the dairy has to come from a kosher animal.
Despite this, there might be some religious Jews who might argue that having something dairy that taste like meat and mix it with real dairy might give the wrong idea of mixing milk with meat...
There are kosher dairy restaurants that have "soy-based" fake meat products that they combine with cheese (ie "chicken" parmagian) , so probably if there is no meat whatsoever in this product, it's very possible it can be eaten or certified as kosher.
But when you have imitation meat mixed with milk isn't it against the spirit of Kashrut to eat these things? What's the consensus of it?
Apparently not according to the Vaad of Kashrut of Greater Washington which certified such a restaurant where I once ate. There were many Torah Jews eating there and it had certification with the imitation meat products. I think kashrut is really about what you are actually eating, not a "spirit" of the law. If it's soy, it's soy.
From what I understand, that was a gezera from the Talmudic times in which they counted poultry as "meat" even though it is really not meat, because of the worry of mixing it up with meat and accidentally eating meat with cheese instead of chicken with cheese. One of the tannaim states his opinion that we can eat chicken with dairy, but his view is rejected by the Talmud. Things back then were different, before the times of packaged foods, etc, so I'm not sure exactly what the issues were, but in any case, we don't extend that gezera (as with Talmudic gezerot in general) to include more than what the rabbis of the Talmud included as far as I know.
I'm a little bit confused with what you wrote, KWRBT. I know that the Rabbis of the Talmud for some reason decided to canonize poultry as meat and it's signed and sealed, so irregardless of how we treat soy "meat" or soy "dairy", if a Rabbi says it's ok, it's ok.
On another issue. while the words of the written Torah can never be changed, what about rulings of Rabbis in the past? Can a ruling that is written in the Talmud be reversed, changed, or revised? Or once it's written, it's sealed for good?
-
From what I understand, that was a gezera from the Talmudic times in which they counted poultry as "meat" even though it is really not meat, because of the worry of mixing it up with meat and accidentally eating meat with cheese instead of chicken with cheese. One of the tannaim states his opinion that we can eat chicken with dairy, but his view is rejected by the Talmud. Things back then were different, before the times of packaged foods, etc, so I'm not sure exactly what the issues were, but in any case, we don't extend that gezera (as with Talmudic gezerot in general) to include more than what the rabbis of the Talmud included as far as I know.
I'm a little bit confused with what you wrote, KWRBT. I know that the Rabbis of the Talmud for some reason decided to canonize poultry as meat and it's signed and sealed, so irregardless of how we treat soy "meat" or soy "dairy", if a Rabbi says it's ok, it's ok.
[/b]
They didn't turn chicken into meat. They simply prohibited eating of chicken with dairy, as if it was meat, even though it is not meat. I don't think anyone claims that the rabbis turned poultry into meat. It was a fence around the prohibition to eat meat with dairy. They included chicken with that. Added it to the prohibition.
I didn't understand the part that I put into bold. Could you clarify that question?
On another issue. while the words of the written Torah can never be changed, what about rulings of Rabbis in the past? Can a ruling that is written in the Talmud be reversed, changed, or revised? Or once it's written, it's sealed for good?
This touches on a huge machloketh. In general, the traditional approach to halacha (which the deform movements separated themselves from and do not adhere to) is that the Talmud is binding, and all halachic authorities accept that as the framework for halacha. Varying interpretation of the Talmudic sources within the realm of plausible readings and possible understandings will come to underline halachic disputes, while no one will come to say a ruling in opposition to the Talmud itself which operates as a canon. But when there was a rabbinic gezera from the Talmud, based on reasons given by the rabbis enacting it there, and these reasons (whatever they were) are no longer relevant or no longer existing conditions in today's world, the question becomes, does the gezera remain in force, or can it be changed because the reason(s) it hinged on are no longer valid. That is a classic machloketh between the Rambam and Raavad. The Rambam says the gezera stays even if the original reason is no longer valid. I admit I have difficulty understanding that ruling. The Raavad says since the reasons no longer apply, neither does the gezera. However, this refers specifically to a derabanan gezera with reasons attached to it. The drashoth that underline Deoraita prohibitions and deoraita rulings are not negotiable except by a Sanhedrin, and even that is actually a difference of opinion, whether a future-formed Sanhedrin will have authority to contradict the Talmud... The Chazon Ish argued strongly against that when proposed by Rav Elchonon Wasserman. That the Oral Torah has not remained Oral and was put into writing greatly complicates this question. Without a Sanhedrin I think there is no question that we do not contradict the Talmud's halachic rulings (with possible exception for conditional gezerot), and I believe the Rambam elaborates on the methodology for psak halacha in which he includes multiple Talmudic sources being weighed against each other including Yerushalmi, Bavli, Sifre, Sifra, Tosefta, Braitot. However, some chachamim focus more strictly on Bavli and some later codifications of halacha including Shulhan Aruch.
Just as a tangent but this might be interesting, Lehavdil, the Deform movements came to reject Talmud in general and think they can cherry pick whatever they want for halacha. They don't operate within the rules of Jewish law and wanted to create Jewish law anew. For this the conservative scholars referred to a notion of "catholic Israel" which they invented and which has no basis in chazal or any sources before them. They explained this theological invention of theirs that the law is defined by what the Jewish people collectively decide to stop keeping or continue keeping. Therefore, if Jews start to eat shrimp (and they actually said this should go by majority of the observing community - how they define that is also specious) then shrimp has become permitted in Jewish law. Totally out of whack. That was a digression but I recently learned about that.
-
Anyone ever wonder why so many vegetarians and vegans seem to go out of their way to find products that LOOK like meat and TASTE like meat but aren't?
-
Anyone ever wonder why so many vegetarians and vegans seem to go out of their way to find products that LOOK like meat and TASTE like meat but aren't?
Some of them go vegan to avoid allergies. Others like the taste of meat but don't want to consume actual animals. They like it because that's what they grew up on.
-
judging that it came from Germany (Yuk) I doubt it's kosher.
-
I like the advertisement, especially how in the background they make the kids look ravenously hungry. :::D
I'd try it if they had it here. I like to try meat substitutes sometimes even though I'm not a vegetarian.
-
I like the advertisement, especially how in the background they make the kids look ravenously hungry. :::D
I'd try it if they had it here. I like to try meat substitutes sometimes even though I'm not a vegetarian.
Did you see the video?
http://www.valess.de/player/12786?width=820&height=442
-
Not until you posted it, I had just seen the site. That's funny how they're going after each other like dinosaurs :laugh:
-
judging that it came from Germany (Yuk) I doubt it's kosher.
They had an Advertisement in my newspaper that a famous German Cheese Company bought a farm and it's going or is now making Kosher cheese.They already have many orders from the U.S.,Israel, and some other European countries
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
Heres some site for kosher Germany http://www.ordonline.de//index.php?option=com_kosherlist&task=default&view=default
-
I keep waiting for the good cheese to go back on manager's special in the imported cheese section. It's expensive otherwise.
I wonder if they're still making those Obama chicken nuggets over there. :::D
-
I keep waiting for the good cheese to go back on manager's special in the imported cheese section. It's expensive otherwise.
I wonder if they're still making those Obama chicken nuggets over there. :::D
I forgot all about that :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
Heres some site for kosher Germany http://www.ordonline.de//index.php?option=com_kosherlist&task=default&view=default
I have never thought, that so many products in German markets are actually kosher. If I would be Jewish I think I would have no problem to live very cheap and well in my city.
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
Heres some site for kosher Germany http://www.ordonline.de//index.php?option=com_kosherlist&task=default&view=default
I have never thought, that so many products in German markets are actually kosher. If I would be Jewish I think I would have no problem to live very cheap and well in my city.
Yes and that's very orthodox
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
Heres some site for kosher Germany http://www.ordonline.de//index.php?option=com_kosherlist&task=default&view=default
I have never thought, that so many products in German markets are actually kosher. If I would be Jewish I think I would have no problem to live very cheap and well in my city.
Yes and that's very orthodox
Why don't they print a "kap" on the articles? I have never seen any sign on it.
It seems that you need the list to find the supervised products.
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
Heres some site for kosher Germany http://www.ordonline.de//index.php?option=com_kosherlist&task=default&view=default
I have never thought, that so many products in German markets are actually kosher. If I would be Jewish I think I would have no problem to live very cheap and well in my city.
Yes and that's very orthodox
Why don't they print a "kap" on the articles? I have never seen any sign on it.
It seems that you need the list to find the supervised products.
maybe they fear leftists and Greens would boycott their companies
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
Heres some site for kosher Germany http://www.ordonline.de//index.php?option=com_kosherlist&task=default&view=default
I have never thought, that so many products in German markets are actually kosher. If I would be Jewish I think I would have no problem to live very cheap and well in my city.
Yes and that's very orthodox
Why don't they print a "kap" on the articles? I have never seen any sign on it.
It seems that you need the list to find the supervised products.
maybe they fear leftists and Greens would boycott their companies
This could be probably the reason.
Not forget the Nazis and the Muslims.
-
I like Butterkase cheese. I wonder if there's a kosher version of that? It probably tastes good because it has a fat content of 50%. ;D
Heres some site for kosher Germany http://www.ordonline.de//index.php?option=com_kosherlist&task=default&view=default
I have never thought, that so many products in German markets are actually kosher. If I would be Jewish I think I would have no problem to live very cheap and well in my city.
Yes and that's very orthodox
Why don't they print a "kap" on the articles? I have never seen any sign on it.
It seems that you need the list to find the supervised products.
maybe they fear leftists and Greens would boycott their companies
This could be probably the reason.
Not forget the Nazis and the Muslims.
Yes that's true also
-
Kwrbt
I was told in the past that the reason poultry was ruled as if it were meat was because it looked and tasted like meat. If this were true there would be a contradiction with the soy products.
-
can somebody put more light on whats written here?
http://www.goveg.com/jsfkosher.asp
-
Kwrbt
I was told in the past that the reason poultry was ruled as if it were meat was because it looked and tasted like meat. If this were true there would be a contradiction with the soy products.
I never heard of that. I think it's not true on 2 counts. One, poultry was never "declared meat" and 2. Chicken does not taste like meat.
I do think it may have been added to the prohibition because it can look like meat and people could get confused and accidentally cook meat with dairy instead of chicken with dairy. Even if that is true, we don't have grounds necessarily to add to the prohibition additional things aside from chicken that the chachamim added to it. And labeled products may make a world of difference as well. But let's look into this.
-
Kwrbt
I was told in the past that the reason poultry was ruled as if it were meat was because it looked and tasted like meat. If this were true there would be a contradiction with the soy products.
I never heard of that. I think it's not true on 2 counts. One, poultry was never "declared meat" and 2. Chicken does not taste like meat.
I do think it may have been added to the prohibition because it can look like meat and people could get confused and accidentally cook meat with dairy instead of chicken with dairy. Even if that is true, we don't have grounds necessarily to add to the prohibition additional things aside from chicken that the chachamim added to it. And labeled products may make a world of difference as well. But let's look into this.
Did you see what I posted concering Maris Ayin?
There is an issue with Maris Ayin... Or there used to be...
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-kosher-cons-handbk.htm
9) Maris Ayin -
The Torah states, “V’heeyesem Niki’im”58 - a Yid must be “clean” in the eyes of his neighbors, and must not perform even permissible activities that appear to be incorrect. This is known as Maris Ayin. Therefore, a person should not serve something that appears to be dairy with meat59 and vice versa. However, if a commonly used substitute for dairy is being eaten it is permissible to serve it with meat, even though it looks like a dairy item.60 There was a time when serving pareve ice cream or sticks of margarine at a fleishig banquet was questionable, because people thought the caterer was serving real ice cream or butter with meat.
Nowadays, these pareve items are commonly used and, therefore, are
permissible at a meat meal. Similarly, soy based burgers and pareve non-meat hot dogs are readily available and may be eaten with dairy. However, if someone produced a pareve product that looks like steak, one would not be allowed to eat it with dairy, because of maris ayin.
-
I did see, but it doesn't address Dr. Dan's precise question. He is asking about the relation to the prohibition of eating chicken with dairy and what that is based on (ie, why that was added the prohibition on meat with dairy).
Also we don't make additional cases of "maris ayin" that are not specifically said in the Talmud. So when that kosher org cites a pasuk rather than a Talmudic source it leads me to believe that that particular maris ayin is not necessarily applicable in any case, even if there are other reasons it would be permitted nowadays. Does the Talmud relate this (something that looks like meat) as one of the specific examples of maris ayin?
-
Muman, do you know the talmudic source which speaks about chicken and dairy? I'm not sure where it's located but that would help us understand the subject.
-
Chaim answered Dr. Dan's question on a recent "Ask JTF" He said it was because in years past, the determination of what was actually beef by visible inspection was not always clear. I didnt quite follow this, but it does make sense with respect to pork. I have seen lean cuts of pork that would have fooled me as having been chicken. I think perhaps in days past when the processing of food was less to non-existent, it couldn't always be ascertained beyond a reasonable doubt if something was for sure NOT beef, if it was meat. But seriously Chaim answered this question recently from a user callled.....I forget... hold on..David Ben Zion
-
I did see that. Why wasn't Maris ayin applied to poultry if it wasn't meat?
Kwrbt
I was told in the past that the reason poultry was ruled as if it were meat was because it looked and tasted like meat. If this were true there would be a contradiction with the soy products.
I never heard of that. I think it's not true on 2 counts. One, poultry was never "declared meat" and 2. Chicken does not taste like meat.
I do think it may have been added to the prohibition because it can look like meat and people could get confused and accidentally cook meat with dairy instead of chicken with dairy. Even if that is true, we don't have grounds necessarily to add to the prohibition additional things aside from chicken that the chachamim added to it. And labeled products may make a world of difference as well. But let's look into this.
Did you see what I posted concering Maris Ayin?
There is an issue with Maris Ayin... Or there used to be...
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-kosher-cons-handbk.htm
9) Maris Ayin -
The Torah states, “V’heeyesem Niki’im”58 - a Yid must be “clean” in the eyes of his neighbors, and must not perform even permissible activities that appear to be incorrect. This is known as Maris Ayin. Therefore, a person should not serve something that appears to be dairy with meat59 and vice versa. However, if a commonly used substitute for dairy is being eaten it is permissible to serve it with meat, even though it looks like a dairy item.60 There was a time when serving pareve ice cream or sticks of margarine at a fleishig banquet was questionable, because people thought the caterer was serving real ice cream or butter with meat.
Nowadays, these pareve items are commonly used and, therefore, are
permissible at a meat meal. Similarly, soy based burgers and pareve non-meat hot dogs are readily available and may be eaten with dairy. However, if someone produced a pareve product that looks like steak, one would not be allowed to eat it with dairy, because of maris ayin.
-
I dont know Dr. Dan. I can read the entire thread and try and figure it out
-
i think muman or KWRBT are going to post something lengthy about how poultry came to be part of the fence...
I wonder if there is a contradiction to imitation meats and dairies.
-
Ok well it's Hullin Chapter 8 mishna 4 which speaks about it. It's somewhat complicated and based on different understanding of the verses. Also the subject is brought up in Shabbath 130a. I have the translation of the text of the mishna in hullin but not the gemara that discusses it, so I'm going to try to look that up. In the meantime, this article discusses very briefly what is referred to in Shabbath 130a.
http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=149
I must say I find reason to not agree with his footnote #3, and am pretty sure my rabbi would disagree with his conclusion as well, but I'm interested in what he wrote there. In any case it's more of a tangential discussion, I think the heart of the matter is expressed in hullin which this citation in Shabbath refers to.
-
Is it true that Sephardim don't have a prohibition on Chicken and Dairy? My Sephardic friend of Egyptian descent told us that his customs don't prohibit this combination...
-
Interesting, I just saw this explanation that eating Meat after eating Dairy does not require any waiting period. I was not aware of this, and I am interested in whether others have heard of this. This doesn't concern the question of Chicken and Dairy, but it is fascinating none the less....
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=98&ClipID=73
The Many Laws of Eating Meat After Milk
Today’s Halacha:
As we know, a person who eats meat must wait a certain period – according to Sephardim, six hours – before he may then eat milk or dairy products. What is the Halacha concerning the reverse case, of a person who ate dairy products and now wishes to eat meat? Is there any mandatory waiting period that must pass before he may partake of meat?
The Shulchan Aruch rules that there is no minimum time period that one must wait before he may eat meat after dairy products. It is permissible to partake of meat immediately after eating dairy foods, provided that one undertakes the following three measures:
1) One must carefully inspect his hands to make sure that they contain no residue of the dairy food. According to the Shulchan Aruch, it suffices to merely inspect one's hands, but later authorities recommend that one wash his hands before eating meat after partaking of dairy products. It should be noted that this condition applies only if somebody ate the dairy food with his hands. If he ate with a fork or a spoon, and he knows for certain that his hands did not come in contact with the dairy food, then he need not inspect or wash his hands before eating meat.
2) One must eat some non-dairy food before partaking of meat. This requirement is to ensure that if some of the dairy food had become stuck somewhere in the person's mouth, it will be dislodged by the food that he eats before partaking of meat. The Shulchan Aruch writes that all foods are suitable for this purpose, with the exception of leafy vegetables, flour and dates, which are not capable of dislodging food stuck in the person's mouth.
3) Finally, one must rinse out his mouth with water, wine, or some other beverage (other than milk, of course).
These conditions apply equally to red meat and poultry; the three conditions mentioned above must be followed before one may eat meat or poultry after eating a dairy food.
Summary: One who eats a dairy food may eat meat or chicken immediately thereafter, after he washes his hands, eats a food other than leafy vegetables, flour or dates, and rinses his mouth with any beverage (other than milk, of course).
-
Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,2195154/Are-chicken-and-fish-considered-meat-and-not-allowed-with-dairy.html
Are chicken and fish considered meat and not allowed with dairy?
The Short Answer:
Neither chicken nor fish meet the Torah's criteria for meat (in this context). Chicken1, however, is rabbinically considered meat and forbidden with dairy.
The Askmoses Answer:
The Torah says2 "do not cook a kid in its mother's milk".
The oral tradition3 tells us that (in the Torah's classic way of conveying many messages through limited words) the Torah is teaching us many laws through this enigmatic verse. For example: "kid in its mother's milk" is not limited to a young animal in its biological mother's milk, rather the Torah is describing the general definition of meat for this law. One of the criteria for "meat" in this context is that its mother gives milk.
This then does not include poultry or fish4. Thus technically speaking, there is no Biblical prohibition against eating chicken or fish with dairy.
However, this poses a problem: many people did, and continue to, consider chicken a form of meat. It was sold together in the market, and is sold together in butcher shops and at the deli counter of your local supermarket etc. It was/is thus easy to make the mistake that if chicken (which in the mind of the masses is meat) was being eaten with milk, that meant other meats, as long as they aren't the actual kid in its biological mother's milk, are also permitted with milk.
Obviously this is incorrect; you may not eat any "beef" (or lamb etc.) in any (animal's) milk.
This is a troublesome thought. People could innocently make the mistake and break a Torah law. The sages, who were commanded by the Torah to protect its laws, issued a decree that since people consider chicken to be a form of meat, it is in the category of meat and may not be eaten with dairy.
This confusion never applied to fish and fish is still not classified as meat. (There are other issues with fish, both regarding fish and milk and fish and meat. See each link respectively).
Footnotes
* 1. We are just using chicken as a common example. However, the same applies to all poultry.
* 2. Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21
* 3. See Talmud tractate Chullin 113a (and subsequent pages). Also see Rashi on above verses.
* 4. The difference is that chicken is considered a form of meat - but it is excluded because its mother doesn't give milk; whereas fish is not even considered a form of meat in the Torah.
http://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/daf_yomi/weekly_dafootnotes/1679
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:_jduzxu7yfUJ:www.aishdas.org/ta/5764/reeh.pdf+%22chullin+113a%22+chicken&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShhoPzEm2Z7YuytCZlofV07Ma_wFZpAyYs7jjej2tmoQkVrowh7AvVxnavHgDDrCh6y5NHfIA7wn6ih3nNR6Zp-9bxPEeHU-0S4K_WtL8z9Io62GU9eB26zBXtJzFQm_V5_qAbw&sig=AHIEtbQsixGCznOu3irMhm5PPGoFU9MDQg (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:_jduzxu7yfUJ:www.aishdas.org/ta/5764/reeh.pdf+%22chullin+113a%22+chicken&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShhoPzEm2Z7YuytCZlofV07Ma_wFZpAyYs7jjej2tmoQkVrowh7AvVxnavHgDDrCh6y5NHfIA7wn6ih3nNR6Zp-9bxPEeHU-0S4K_WtL8z9Io62GU9eB26zBXtJzFQm_V5_qAbw&sig=AHIEtbQsixGCznOu3irMhm5PPGoFU9MDQg)
There is a dispute about whether milk and fowl is forbidden Biblically or Rabbinically (see Chullin 113a, where it only Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Yosi Hagelili who say that it is Biblically permitted, with Rabbi Akiva implying that it is Rabbinically prohibited—see Tosfos there, and on 104b where they conclude that milk is Biblically prohibited after fowl); we follow the opinion that it is only a Rabbinic prohibition (see Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Dayah 87:3).
-
Rashis comment on Shemot 23:19 is:
You shall not cook a kid: Heb. גְּדִי. A calf and a lamb are also included in [the term] גְּדִי, for גְּדִי is only an expression of a tender young animal. [This you know] from what you find in many places in the Torah where גְּדִי is written, and it was necessary to write after it עִזִים [to qualify it as a kid], for example, “I will send you a kid גְּדִי עִזִים ” (Gen. 38:17); “the kid גְּדִי הָעִזִים ” (Gen. 38:20); “two kids עִזִים גְּדָיֵי ” (Gen. 27:9); to teach you that wherever גְּדִי is mentioned unqualified, it also means a calf and a lamb. This [prohibition] is written in three places in the Torah, one for the prohibition of eating [meat with milk], one for the prohibition of deriving any benefit [from meat with milk], and one for the prohibition of cooking [meat with milk]. -[From Chul. 113b, 115b]
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=15564&p=5&showrashi=true
Rashis comment on Shemot 34:26
You shall not cook a kid: This is the warning against [cooking] meat and milk [together]. This commandment is written in the Torah three times (Exod. 23:19, Deut. 14:21), one for eating, one for deriving benefit, and one for the prohibition of cooking. -[from Chul. 115b]
a kid: Heb. גְּדִי. Any young offspring is meant, even a calf or a lamb. Since [the Torah] had to specify in many places גְּדִי עִזִּים [when a young goat is meant], you learn that [mention of] גְּדִי unqualified means all sucklings. -[from Chul. 113b]
in its mother’s milk: This excludes fowl, which has no milk, which is not prohibited by the Torah but by the decree of the Scribes [the Sages]. -[from Chul. 113a]
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=15567&p=6&showrashi=true
Rashis comment on Devarim 14:21
You shall not cook a kid [in its mother’s milk]: [This is stated] three times [here, in Exod. 23:19, and in Exod. 34:26], to exclude wild animals, fowl, and unclean animals [from the prohibition of cooking meat in milk]. — [Chul. 113a]
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=36235&p=4&showrashi=true
-
Interesting, I just saw this explanation that eating Meat after eating Dairy does not require any waiting period. I was not aware of this, and I am interested in whether others have heard of this. This doesn't concern the question of Chicken and Dairy, but it is fascinating none the less....
Did you assumed the waiting period was the same as for meat to dairy and is that what you've been doing? Man, that's a real toil. I love the fact that we can have meat right after dairy. All you have to do is drink something liquid in between and it can be right afterwards.
My Rosh yeshiva when his kids were younger used to have cheesecake as the appetizer for the Shavuot meal, then remove the disposable table cloth and have a meal with meat. He said he wanted to show his kids on the night of Shavuot (associated with the receiving of the Torah) that when we receive and observe the Torah we don't lose out on anything and we still get pleasure and have tasty food. Cheesecake before and good tasting meat for the meal, like a real king's feast to symbolize the majesty of Torah observance.
-
Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:
Hmm... Judging from his reply, I think he's very.... let's call it "creative." But it sounds as if the prohibition exists and he's trying to 'convince' the questioner that he must follow it by coming up with all sorts of explanations even if they were not originally mentioned. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get, and usually get, from that site and its replies.
-
When I was not trying to consciously follow any Jewish precepts, I have eaten seafood and enjoyed it, but I cannot eat milk with meat, cannot. I dont know why. I dont think it has anything to do with it being forbidden, I just have never been able to think of it without having a negative reaction. Incidently, this is nothing against anyone on the forum who enjoys a Philly cheesesteak or cheeseburger.
When I was aiming to convert, I was very carefull about al the kashruth rules and felt an special aversion to mixing meat with dairy. It bothered me even to seee others mixing it. I prefered not to watch them when preparing cheeseburguers.
Now that I decided to remain a Ben Noah, I don't intentionally mix them but I don't check all the ingredients of prepared food, neither do I generally observe the time between meals. However, I am still quite carefull not to eat seafood, pork or any other impure animal. My reason is that while the prohibition of mixing dairy and meat, eating the sciatic nerve or eating meat without kosher shchitah was revealed only to Jews, the rules about impure animals was revealed to Noah first. Impure animals were and are permitted to Noahides, the distinction was revealed only for ancient times when Noahides performed Sacrifices, not regarding eating. But, since many Gentile ancient peoples extended the prohibition to eating also for cultural reasons, I feel aversion to it even if it's permited.
-
Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:
Hmm... Judging from his reply, I think he's very.... let's call it "creative." But it sounds as if the prohibition exists and he's trying to 'convince' the questioner that he must follow it by coming up with all sorts of explanations even if they were not originally mentioned. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get, and usually get, from that site and its replies.
It appears that most of what that Chabad Rabbi said comes from Rashi and Tractacte Chullin 113a/b... I believe you also found something in Chullin {Chullin 8 Mishnah 4}... I have not been able to find that on the web though...
-
:dance:
Is it true that Sephardim don't have a prohibition on Chicken and Dairy? My Sephardic
friend of Egyptian descent told us that his customs don't prohibit this combination...
Not necessarily. My family mixes my wife's family doesn't. My father in law used to when he lived in Iran. I used to but out of respect for my wife I no longer do. I'm trying to find a logical Jewish justification that I can use so when I have kids they'll understand. However just because the rabbis said so is not enough to justify it. While those rabbis are beyond smart they are still human.
-
U didn't know?
Interesting, I just saw this explanation that eating Meat after eating Dairy does not require any waiting period. I was not aware of this, and I am interested in whether others have heard of this. This doesn't concern the question of Chicken and Dairy, but it is fascinating none the less....
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=98&ClipID=73
The Many Laws of Eating Meat After Milk
Today’s Halacha:
As we know, a person who eats meat must wait a certain period – according to Sephardim, six hours – before he may then eat milk or dairy products. What is the Halacha concerning the reverse case, of a person who ate dairy products and now wishes to eat meat? Is there any mandatory waiting period that must pass before he may partake of meat?
The Shulchan Aruch rules that there is no minimum time period that one must wait before he may eat meat after dairy products. It is permissible to partake of meat immediately after eating dairy foods, provided that one undertakes the following three measures:
1) One must carefully inspect his hands to make sure that they contain no residue of the dairy food. According to the Shulchan Aruch, it suffices to merely inspect one's hands, but later authorities recommend that one wash his hands before eating meat after partaking of dairy products. It should be noted that this condition applies only if somebody ate the dairy food with his hands. If he ate with a fork or a spoon, and he knows for certain that his hands did not come in contact with the dairy food, then he need not inspect or wash his hands before eating meat.
2) One must eat some non-dairy food before partaking of meat. This requirement is to ensure that if some of the dairy food had become stuck somewhere in the person's mouth, it will be dislodged by the food that he eats before partaking of meat. The Shulchan Aruch writes that all foods are suitable for this purpose, with the exception of leafy vegetables, flour and dates, which are not capable of dislodging food stuck in the person's mouth.
3) Finally, one must rinse out his mouth with water, wine, or some other beverage (other than milk, of course).
These conditions apply equally to red meat and poultry; the three conditions mentioned above must be followed before one may eat meat or poultry after eating a dairy food.
Summary: One who eats a dairy food may eat meat or chicken immediately thereafter, after he washes his hands, eats a food other than leafy vegetables, flour or dates, and rinses his mouth with any beverage (other than milk, of course).
-
This thread reminds me of a lady I was talking to on Pal Talk one day. She said she didn't like the taste of pareve cakes and she wanted to serve real cake with dairy ingredients to her guests after dinner, but the waiting time was so long and they might not stick around for it. She said it wasn't such a long time if dairy was consumed first. So I said why not serve the cake first? She thought that was very strange, but it made sense to me!
-
This thread reminds me of a lady I was talking to on Pal Talk one day. She said she didn't like the taste of pareve cakes and she wanted to serve real cake with dairy ingredients to her guests after dinner, but the waiting time was so long and they might not stick around for it. She said it wasn't such a long time if dairy was consumed first. So I said why not serve the cake first? She thought that was very strange, but it made sense to me!
I think German Jews wait less time even orthodox
-
Yes I'm correct http://www.myjewishlearning.com/practices/Ritual/Kashrut_Dietary_Laws/Keeping_Kosher/Waiting_Between_Meals.shtml
Some say one hour is sufficient time, and this has been the accepted tradition of Dutch Jews. German Jews follow a tradition of waiting three hours. Forst says this may be based on the idea that in winter the time between meals is shorter; therefore, it is acceptable to wait a shorter amount of time year round.
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146%2C2095378/How-long-must-one-wait-after-eating-meat-before-eating-dairy.html
most Jews wait six hours, though Dutch Jews wait one hour, and German Jews wait three hours.
-
Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:
Hmm... Judging from his reply, I think he's very.... let's call it "creative." But it sounds as if the prohibition exists and he's trying to 'convince' the questioner that he must follow it by coming up with all sorts of explanations even if they were not originally mentioned. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get, and usually get, from that site and its replies.
It appears that most of what that Chabad Rabbi said comes from Rashi and Tractacte Chullin 113a/b... I believe you also found something in Chullin {Chullin 8 Mishnah 4}... I have not been able to find that on the web though...
Yeah, 113 is probably where that Mishna occurs. I have the translation of the Mishna with Kehati online but I wanted to find online the gemara's discussion of that mishna as well.
-
:dance:Is it true that Sephardim don't have a prohibition on Chicken and Dairy? My Sephardic
friend of Egyptian descent told us that his customs don't prohibit this combination...
Not necessarily. My family mixes my wife's family doesn't. My father in law used to when he lived in Iran. I used to but out of respect for my wife I no longer do. I'm trying to find a logical Jewish justification that I can use so when I have kids they'll understand. However just because the rabbis said so is not enough to justify it. While those rabbis are beyond smart they are still human.
But the rabbis are the ones who said so to begin with to. (ie, they made the prohibition, they can say it's permitted too) etc. Although, I do remember now hearing about this that some Sephardim eat dairy with chicken, but that it was based on a mistaken manuscript of the Shulhan Aruch that has a scribal error in it. I'm not 100% sure if it was this topic (chicken and cheese) but I think it was. Apparently that scribal error was pretty widespread and made it to many places.
That being said, Dr. Dan, if you have a family custom, usually that's reason enough that rabbis will allow you to stick with it, and you *could* say you stem from the Galileans and that's how it got preserved somehow in your family even though the Talmud concludes against it. (I don't know how likely that really is, it may more likely stem from post-shulchan aruch times, but it's possible) Because the Talmud does say that despite that the halacha is like Rabbi Akiva, the Galileans continued to eat chicken with dairy. Even if that was true though, it may not validate the custom because it was a custom tied to Galilee and may not have post-Talmudic validity in other places. Well good luck and ask your rabbis of course.
-
This thread reminds me of a lady I was talking to on Pal Talk one day. She said she didn't like the taste of pareve cakes and she wanted to serve real cake with dairy ingredients to her guests after dinner, but the waiting time was so long and they might not stick around for it. She said it wasn't such a long time if dairy was consumed first. So I said why not serve the cake first? She thought that was very strange, but it made sense to me!
I think German Jews wait less time even orthodox
Yes, and Dutch Jews wait like 1 hour I think.