JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mizrahi 4 LIFE on July 27, 2010, 08:47:44 PM
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138816
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What a disgrace for a chief rabbi to send well wishes to an arab nazi tyrant like Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has the blood of Jews on his hands.
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What a disgrace for a chief rabbi to send well wishes to an arab nazi tyrant like Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has the blood of Jews on his hands.
who knows why Chaham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita would do this, but sure he has a good reason
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What a disgrace for a chief rabbi to send well wishes to an arab nazi tyrant like Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has the blood of Jews on his hands.
who knows why Chaham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita would do this, but sure he has a good reason
Just like he had a "good reason" to sign the Oslo accords? Yeah I know what the reason was then... Can you gue$$ what it wa$?
I'm so sick of this type of argument that just because Rav Ovadia says or does something, it has to be right.
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What a disgrace for a chief rabbi to send well wishes to an arab nazi tyrant like Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has the blood of Jews on his hands.
who knows why Chaham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita would do this, but sure he has a good reason
Just like he had a "good reason" to sign the Oslo accords? Yeah I know what the reason was then... Can you gue$$ what it wa$?
I'm so sick of this type of argument that just because Rav Ovadia says or does something, it has to be right.
hes the biggest Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world, hes very wise, he knows a lot of Torah, he knows what hes doing
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What a disgrace for a chief rabbi to send well wishes to an arab nazi tyrant like Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has the blood of Jews on his hands.
who knows why Chaham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita would do this, but sure he has a good reason
Just like he had a "good reason" to sign the Oslo accords? Yeah I know what the reason was then... Can you gue$$ what it wa$?
I'm so sick of this type of argument that just because Rav Ovadia says or does something, it has to be right.
hes the biggest Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world, hes very wise, he knows a lot of Torah,
I'm well aware of who he is. So what? He's also fallible like any man. He's only a man, you know.
he knows what hes doing
And he can be wrong even if he thought he knew what he was doing.
Do you think signing the treasonous Oslo accords to ca$h in was a good decision? You need to stop idolizing men.
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But we also must respect the Halachic Gedolim of the generation. Many people consider Rav Yosef amongst the Gedolim. While I disagree with his signing onto the Oslo accord I also respect his Torah wisdom.
Hasn't he admitted that it was a mistake... I thought I remember discussing this in the past...
Look at all the Halachic opinions he has made @ http://4torah.com/searchtorah.html?cx=000576332529071427539%3Abzerp_-qia8&cof=FORID%3A11%3BNB%3A1&q=+rav+ovadia+yosef&sa=Search&siteurl=4torah.com%252F#1696 (http://4torah.com/searchtorah.html?cx=000576332529071427539%3Abzerp_-qia8&cof=FORID%3A11%3BNB%3A1&q=+rav+ovadia+yosef&sa=Search&siteurl=4torah.com%252F#1696)
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Re: Greetings for Mubarak
I read once in the Talmud that it is stated that a Jew must at all times receive as guest an Egyptian. The Sages said that we were guests in Egypt, and so must return the hospitality.
Reading further, I discovered that a Jew is required? to allow his daughter to marry an Egyptian and accept him into the family if the situation arises.
Mubarak is dying of cancer, and perhaps he is a good man when not playing his role on the world stage as an evil shifty, two-faced lying A-rab.
So let's give the Rabbis the benefit of the doubt for sending him a get well card.
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Re: Greetings for Mubarak
I read once in the Talmud that it is stated that a Jew must at all times receive as guest an Egyptian. The Sages said that we were guests in Egypt, and so must return the hospitality.
Reading further, I discovered that a Jew is required? to allow his daughter to marry an Egyptian and accept him into the family if the situation arises.
Mubarak is dying of cancer, and perhaps he is a good man when not playing his role on the world stage as an evil shifty, two-faced lying A-rab.
So let's give the Rabbis the benefit of the doubt for sending him a get well card.
This can't be true, can it?
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Kahane-was-right-BT: "I'm so sick of this type of argument that just because Rav Ovadia says or does something, it has to be right. "
I completely agree.
One can be accomplished in Torah study and still be a corrupt pig leading his people to destruction.
Better to be a complete ignoramus (like myself) than an educated derelict.
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Any Jew who signed Oslo has Jewish blood on their hands and this letter from Yosef shows he's learned nothing from Oslo. Rabbi Kahane would never send well-wishes to an Jew-killing arab tyrant like Mubarak. It's time for new Sephardi leadership. No more kapo leaders like Ovadia Yosef.
While he is a brilliant Torah sage, he needs to set a better example for his fellow Jews.
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Re: "we also must respect the Halachic Gedolim of the generation. Many people consider Rav Yosef amongst the Gedolim. While I disagree with his signing onto the Oslo accord I also respect his Torah wisdom. "
I respect their knowledge of Torah, but I do not consider such men infallible demi-gods whose behavior is always perfect.
Look at how many times in our history the Gedolim of their generation declared one or another Jews to be the Moshiach, only to be proven wrong; often at the cost of innumerable Jewish lives and Jewish souls.
For classic cases of this simply observe the Bar Kochba Revolt, or research the life and times of Shabtai Tzvi, whose fanatic followers accepted the outright heresy of Jakob Frank rather than admit that Tzvi was not the Moshiach.
Just recently a schism took place in Jewry because of Chabad Rabbis who insist the recently deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach -vs- those Chabad Rabbis who insist he is not Moshiach. This led to outright outbreaks of violence, beatings, vandalism and desecration - Rabbi against Rabbi - at the Chabad Headquarters itself. There was even one fairly recent incident reported in the L.A. area [Malibu if I'm not mistaken] involving gunshots and death threats committed by Chabad Rabbis against other Chabad Rabbis over turf squabbles related to "business".
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Re: "we also must respect the Halachic Gedolim of the generation. Many people consider Rav Yosef amongst the Gedolim. While I disagree with his signing onto the Oslo accord I also respect his Torah wisdom. "
I respect their knowledge of Torah, but I do not consider such men infallible demi-gods whose behavior is always perfect.
Look at how many times in our history the Gedolim of their generation declared one or another Jews to be the Moshiach, only to be proven wrong; often at the cost of innumerable Jewish lives and Jewish souls.
For classic cases of this simply observe the Bar Kochba Revolt, or research the life and times of Shabtai Tzvi, whose fanatic followers accepted the outright heresy of Jakob Frank rather than admit that Tzvi was not the Moshiach.
Just recently a schism took place in Jewry because of Chabad Rabbis who insist the recently deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach -vs- those Chabad Rabbis who insist he is not Moshiach. This led to outright outbreaks of violence, beatings, vandalism and desecration - Rabbi against Rabbi - at the Chabad Headquarters itself. There was even one fairly recent incident reported in the L.A. area [Malibu if I'm not mistaken] involving gunshots and death threats committed by Chabad Rabbis against other Chabad Rabbis over turf squabbles related to "business".
Massuh,
I don't think that using the Bar Kochba Revolt in this discussion is relevant. It was Rabbi Akiva himself, one of the ten martyrs, who considered Bar Kochba to be Moshiach, and it appeared that he was... The Revolt was successful and Bar Kochba did all that Moshiach was supposed to do. There is nothing wrong with considering someone to be a potential moshiach, as we beleive that Moshiach {or sparks of moshiach} exist in every generation.
There is nothing wrong with believing that Chabad Rabbi was a spark of Moshiach {as I do}. I also believe that Rabbi Kahane was a spark of Moshiach.
Of course our religion never says or requires anyone to believe that Rabbis are not men, they are fallable, and they make mistakes.But even so their decisions need to be considered, and their halachic reasons evaluated. In past days there were more Gedolim who would be able to discuss such life and death issues but today we have so few.
http://www.jewishmag.com/77mag/barkokhba/barkokhba.htm
The leader of this revolt was Shimon bar Kokhba. There is no evidence that bar Kokhba succeeded in rebuilding the Temple or even renewing the sacrificial services. Yet during this period, the name of bar Kokhba was equated with that of the Messiah.
During the time of the rebellion, bar Kokhba was referred to as the Nasi, the leader or prince of the Jewish people. The Messianic hopes that the Jews possessed during those times were centered around him. Because of this he was called bar Kokhba, the son of a star.
No less than the great sage, Rabbi Akiva, called bar Kokhba the messiah as related in the Talmud Jerusalmi, tractate Tannit, "When Rabbi Akiva saw bar Kokhba, he said, 'this is the king Messiah'. Rabbi Yochanan was not so impressed and replied to Rabbi Akiva, "grass will grow from your cheeks and yet the son of David (the king messiah) will not have come." The Rambam explains that the sages of that generation were convinced that bar Kokhba was the Messiah. However since due to his sins he was killed, the sages realized he was not the Messiah. (Rambam, Malachim, 11:3) Because of this, he is not referred to in the Talmud as bar Kokhba, but as bar Koseba, the son of deceit, since he was not the Messiah. Instead of redemption, he brought upon them greater destruction.
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But we also must respect the Halachic Gedolim of the generation. Many people consider Rav Yosef amongst the Gedolim. While I disagree with his signing onto the Oslo accord I also respect his Torah wisdom.
Hasn't he admitted that it was a mistake... I thought I remember discussing this in the past...
Look at all the Halachic opinions he has made @ http://4torah.com/searchtorah.html?cx=000576332529071427539%3Abzerp_-qia8&cof=FORID%3A11%3BNB%3A1&q=+rav+ovadia+yosef&sa=Search&siteurl=4torah.com%252F#1696 (http://4torah.com/searchtorah.html?cx=000576332529071427539%3Abzerp_-qia8&cof=FORID%3A11%3BNB%3A1&q=+rav+ovadia+yosef&sa=Search&siteurl=4torah.com%252F#1696)
Did I disrespect anyone, Muman? Your post, while true, is irrelevant to anything I said.
No, show me where he "admitted it was a mistake." That's preposterous. He and his govt still support the Oslo charade to this day as they sit in the govt and Eli Yishai sits in Bibi's inner cabinet of 6 people and advises him and encourages "negotiation." And treason is not something one can undo by saying "whoops, my bad."
Now let's try to understand what exactly is happening in this thread. Rav Ovadia makes a questionable decision (to express his greetings and undying love for Hasni the nazi Mubarak) that someone then questions in the thread saying it's disgraceful to see from the chief rabbi. Mizrahi 4 life then defends Rav Ovadia's decision to do so, not for logical reasons, or some other explanation of why it makes sense (and I can think of several actually), but instead, he defends it on grounds such as "He knows what he's doing." Or, in other words, since he's the big Sephardi gadol, he therefore is not making a mistake because he can't be. That is complete hogwash. This type of mistaken notion needs dispelling no matter what the context. That is what I reacted to. I did not disrespect Rav Ovadia, but I certainly will never respect the decision to sell out Am Yisrael with the Oslo death accords.
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I agree Muman that a distinction must be made between Bar Kochva and the evil shabtai tzvi. Two different scenarios and way different danger to the Jewish people was caused by "belief" in shabtai tzvi. Bar Kochva led a revolt against Rome to liberate the Jewish people and for a short time it was actually successful so it looked like he really may have been the moshiah (next step would have been re-establishing Sanhedrin and rebuild the Rome-destroyed Temple). But of course he failed and the revolt failed. But nobody was claiming stop practicing Judaism, make bar kochva a leader over you and do his "new mitzvahs" or whatever other kind of mystical nonsense. The revolt was a rational, calculated, well-planned guerilla military operation to lift the yoke of oppression. In theory there is nothing "wrong" with that if it has chance of succeeding, however, they miscalculated. With Shabtai tzvi, he was actually coming to undo the halacha as some kind of G-d-like figure and make Jews transgress the Jewish laws - the exact opposite of a real messiah.
However, there have been many parallels to shabtai tzvi in history, albeit on smaller scale, there have certainly been false messiahs in the shabtai tzvi mold that have caused great damage, and certainly it's true that many great rabbis were deceived by shabtai tzvi, and there were some who promoted other mystical saviors throughout history or thought that mystically they could be invincible even though logic dictated that they were severely doomed in any kind of armed conflict with the small number of recruits to some charismatic individual. So Massuh's point is well taken.
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Re: Greetings for Mubarak
I read once in the Talmud that it is stated that a Jew must at all times receive as guest an Egyptian. The Sages said that we were guests in Egypt, and so must return the hospitality.
Reading further, I discovered that a Jew is required? to allow his daughter to marry an Egyptian and accept him into the family if the situation arises.
Mubarak is dying of cancer, and perhaps he is a good man when not playing his role on the world stage as an evil shifty, two-faced lying A-rab.
So let's give the Rabbis the benefit of the doubt for sending him a get well card.
This can't be true, can it?
Voo-Yoo,
There is some truth in what he has said, but there needs to be some explanation...
First, Torah forbid Jews from marrying Egyptians up till the third generation from the exodus from Egypt... But after that time it was permitted. I believe that King Solomon had a wife who was a daughter of Paro.
Second, the commandment reads "You shall not oppress the stranger because you were a stranger in Egypt".
Here are some links:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/general/daily-rambam/092.htm
Negative Mitzvah 55: We are forbidden to reject an Egyptian if he converts to Judaism
Deuteronomy 23:8 "Do not despise an Egyptian because you were a stranger in his land"
The Torah forbids an Egyptian convert from marrying freely into the Jewish people until the third generation.
The hundreds of years of cruel slavery in Egypt affected both nations. Nevertheless, despite the hardships in Egypt, the Torah appreciates that Jacob and his sons were given refuge in Egypt. Also, it was in Egypt that the Jewish people developed into a nation to be chosen by HaShem.
Therefore, we are commanded not to totally reject an Egyptian that converts to Judaism. The third generation of such converts may marry freely among the Jewish people.
From this Shabbats Parasha
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/bonchek/archives/eikev65.htm
Deut. 10:19
And you shall love the stranger for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
RASHI
Because you were strangers : Rashi: A blemish that you possess, do not attribute to your friend.
WHAT IS RASHI SAYING ?
Rashi's comment seems simple enough. It recalls similar Rashi-comments in Exodus 22:20 and Leviticus 19:34 which also refer to strangers (i.e. converts).
Let us compare these comments and see a question that arises from such a comparison
1) Our verse
And you shall love the stranger for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
2) Exodus 22:20
A stranger don't taunt or oppress for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
3) Leviticus 19:34
And when a stranger dwells with you in your land, do not taunt him and you should love him as yourself for you were strangewrs in the land of Egypt.
As you compare these verses and Rashi's comment here, what would you ask?
Your Question:
QUESTIONING RASHI
A Question: While all three verses contain the same phrase "Because you were strangers in the land of Egypt" and on these verses Rashi also comments "a blemish you possess, do not attribute to another," yet these verses differ from ours. In the other two verses there is a prohibition to harm the stranger. Exodus 22:20 it says "Don't taunt or oppress a stranger." In Leviticus 19:34 it says "Don't taunt him." Our verse, on the other hand, only says "Love the stranger." There is no prohibition to taunt him. To use Rashi's phrasing, there is no mention of 'blemishes" in our verse.
The question is: Why does Rashi mention blemishes ? Rashi's warning is appropriate when there is a prohibition to taunt him, but our verse says nothing about acting disrespectfully towards the stranger. Ours verse speaks of loving him. Why does Rashi repeat the aphorism "a blemish you possess, do not attribute to another" ?
Can you see what prompted this comment?
Your Answer:
WHAT IS BOTHERING RASHI ?
An Answer: Our verse enjoins us to love the stranger "because we were strangers in Egypt." What sense does that make? It is understandable that we should love someone because he did us a favor. But to love someone just because we had similar experiences? Because both he and we were strangers? Why? It makes as much sense to say, Love basketball players because you too were once a basketball player!
How does Rashi's comment deal with this difficulty?
Your Answer:
UNDERSTANDING RASHI
An Answer: Rashi is telling us that since the Torah reinforces the command to "love the stranger" with the reminiscence of our Egyptian experience, the point of the verse must be: do not inflict on the stranger what we went through when we were strangers in Egypt. In this light, "love" consists of not doing evil towards the stranger; of not taking advantage of the stranger because he is less powerful than us as we were less powerful than our Egyptian taskmasters.
This is reminiscent of Hillel's interpretation of "Love your neighbor as yourself" which he gave to the gentile who professed interest in converting to Judaism. His words "What is hateful to you, do not do to another" are a way of rendering the Torah's positive command of "loving" as a negative prohibition not to harm another.
In our verse as well, Rashi transposes the Torah's positive command to love the stranger into a negative admonition "don't ascribe to him your faults."
PSYCHOLOGICAL DEFENSE MECHANISMS
It is interesting to note in this regard, that psychologists have understood the dynamics underlying negative, racist, stereotypes, the prejudices people hold for certain minorities in their midst, to be, in reality, projected images of their own weaknesses. They project onto others those traits which are distasteful to them and which they cannot accept as part of themselves. This projection ascribes to the other their own "wickedness," thereby accomplishing two psychological maneuvers at once - denial of one's own imperfection as well as projecting the anger one has for oneself onto another. This is exactly the meaning of "A blemish you have do not attribute to another." The Torah's psychological astuteness predates Freudian defense mechanisms by a few years.
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KWRBT,
I know the sad story of Shabbatai Tzvi and the resulting confusion and corruption which resulted... I do not defend that nor do I totally understand what led to that chapter in our history. I don't know if it was the result of the Gedolim of the day proclaiming that he was Moshiach.
Also regarding your comments about Rav Yosef.. I dont mean that it is wrong to criticize or disagree with their decisions, especially when they attempt to apply Halacha to political realities, but I believe it should be done respectfully if possible.
Land for Peace was weighed by several of the Rabbis and there was some agreement between them... Is it a wrong decision? It seems in hindsight {10+ years in} that is was indeed wrong... Us right-wingers will say "We told you so" and we will realize that it was a mistake. I remember talking with my center-left-wing Israeli friend about this in 2005 {5 years ago} and he beleived it was going to work... But today he realizes that we are right and they were wrong.
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/thepracticaltorah/acharei.shtml
Excellent discussion of Land for Peace
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/735796/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Land_for_Peace:_A_Halachic_Perspective
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KWRBT,
I know the sad story of Shabbatai Tzvi and the resulting confusion and corruption which resulted... I do not defend that nor do I totally understand what led to that chapter in our history. I don't know if it was the result of the Gedolim of the day proclaiming that he was Moshiach.
There were gedolim who thought he was moshiach. There were also masses of Jews, maybe the majority, who thought so.
Also regarding your comments about Rav Yosef.. I dont mean that it is wrong to criticize or disagree with their decisions, especially when they attempt to apply Halacha to political realities, but I believe it should be done respectfully if possible.
Again you're missing the point.
Here is a valid way to express agreement with Rav Yosef: "I think he made the right decision to send wishes to Mubarak because (I'll give an example which may or may not be true) if he falls from power, the Moslem Brotherhood terrorists will take over Egypt and that is the worse of the two evils."
Here is what I think is NOT a valid way to express agreement and actually represents an underlying theological mistake which borders on idol worship (and which is commonly used to "bully" others into sacrificing their intellects and agreeing "because you have to" whether it's logically compelling to do so or not): "Rav Ovadia is correct to send wishes to Mubarak because he can't possibly be wrong - he's a Torah scholar/gadol."
With G-d's help I'm going to rebuke that second approach each and every time I see it here (bli neder).
Land for Peace was weighed by several of the Rabbis and there was some agreement between them...
Really? On what basis? And the fact that they are rabbis means I can't point out with common sense, logic, and rational proofs why such an "idea" will undoubtedly fail? "Discussion" of such a farce of an "idea" (it's like 'weighing' whether it's appropriate for Benedict Arnold to help the British defeat George Washington - what a farce of a discussion if I've ever seen one) - such discussion is not a complicated halachic shaila which requires detailed knowledge of the laws of Shabbat or the complicated laws of purity. It's a fairly straightforward political move which can be judged against the major fundamental principles of Judaism, and this can be comprehended by even people who are ignoramuses in the vast intricacies of complicated halachot. Or do you suggest this is akin to a shaila about laws of cooking on Shabbat and we simply can't approach their level of mastery to speak on the subject? I think the notion that "land for peace" is in anyway analogous to that is spurious. Unless you can prove me wrong...
Is it a wrong decision? It seems in hindsight {10+ years in} that is was indeed wrong...
No, I think it was just as wrong at the time on its merits. Hindsight has proven logic and common sense to still be reliable, however I don't really think it took hindsight to comprehend that treason and national suicide is a bad move.
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/thepracticaltorah/acharei.shtml
Excellent discussion of Land for Peace
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/735796/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Land_for_Peace:_A_Halachic_Perspective
Thanks for the sources, I'll look into these.
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I agree with everyone here that is against Ovadia Yosef. I don't see how pandering up to Mubarak and kissing his tuches is good for Israel. Mubarak is a slime bucket that never even visited Israel once, except for Rabins funeral maybe. Yosef and his party Shas are known to be corrupt and greedy people in Israel btw.
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That's the galut mentality which lingers on even as we have been independent for 62 years.
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Re: "With Shabtai tzvi, he was actually coming to undo the halacha as some kind of G-d-like figure and make Jews transgress the Jewish laws - the exact opposite of a real messiah. "
This is an incorrect reading of the events surrounding Shabtai Tzvi, in which the writer is looking back on history and judging the entire life of Tzvi based on what we now know to be the end results of his being declared Moshiach by Jewish rabbis during his day.
There is an signed and dated legal document on record, signed by the leading eminent rabbis of Shabtai Tzvi's day, which states their unanimous conviction that Shabtai Tzvi is Moshiach with assurance.
This document exactly resembles the one signed recently by Chabad Rabbis stating their unanimous conviction that their Rebbe M. Schneerson is Moshiach with assurance.
Tzvi didn't just one day show up and announce his mission as one of an iconoclast.
His personality literally mesmerized and transfixed his Jewish contemporaries, and all declared that never in history had such a vibrant Torah scholar appeared.
The rabbis and cantors of his day described Shabtai Tzvi's singing of Psalms as something possible only by angels, as if his soul had opened the Gates of Heaven.
And it is also a matter of documented record that Jews everywhere on the planet packed their bags with all their belongings and waited at their front doors for their announced Moshiach to miraculously carry them away to Eretz Yisrael.
There was already a longstanding belief among Torah scholars that Moshiach's rule may well overturn many of the legal statutes under which we now live, and this belief continues in our time.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe M. Schneerson taught that pork might become kosher in the coming Messianic Era.
This is why those Jews who became convinced that Shabtai Tzvi was their long awaited Moshiach would have followed his every utterance without question, exactly as we today witness hundreds of Lubavitcher Rabbis worldwide with unshakable belief that their deceased Rebbe was, and is, the Jewish Moshiach.
And I would like to add here that we have yet to fully witness what damage might or might not be caused to the Jewish People by the hundreds of "true believers" in Rabbi Schneerson who've fanned out across the planet and keep their true beliefs "silent" among themselves. I have personally been told by several of them how "at 770 holy miracles flowed like water...", and how "...when Rabbi Schneerson prayed with fervor it was as if he had left his body and been transported directly into Heaven!...".
In every historic era, the Jewish world has been filled with completely imbalanced Torah disciples - wild eyed fanatics - so out of touch with anything but their own desires and hopes that they give their complete allegiance to almost anyone who demonstrates uncommon charisma combined with profound knowledge of Torah.
As for the longstanding Jewish "Tradition" that in each generation there is someone ready to be the Moshiach if only the generation is ready to accept him...
That's all well and good - a very nice thing to teach little children and talk about in Hebrew class, but as for me I'll wait until there's no question of Moshiach's being here before I pack my bags, because I happen to harbor grave doubts about the Jews of NY City and Tel Aviv being "ready" for Moshiach when I daily watch them embracing homosexuality, crime, and national suicide.
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Re: Greetings for Mubarak
I read once in the Talmud that it is stated that a Jew must at all times receive as guest an Egyptian. The Sages said that we were guests in Egypt, and so must return the hospitality.
Reading further, I discovered that a Jew is required? to allow his daughter to marry an Egyptian and accept him into the family if the situation arises.
Mubarak is dying of cancer, and perhaps he is a good man when not playing his role on the world stage as an evil shifty, two-faced lying A-rab.
So let's give the Rabbis the benefit of the doubt for sending him a get well card.
This can't be true, can it?
Voo-Yoo,
There is some truth in what he has said, but there needs to be some explanation...
Phew, thanks Muman. For a moment, I thought he was saying Jews must allow their daughters marry a real Egyptian, not a convert.
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Massuh,
I have been involved with Chabad for several years and never once have I heard any Rabbi refer to their Rebbe as Moshiach... I have heard that there were some who believed it, but once he has passed and did not complete the mission of Moshiach I see no way that they can continue in that belief.
I have had nothing but great relations with the Chabad shliachs.
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Re: "With Shabtai tzvi, he was actually coming to undo the halacha as some kind of G-d-like figure and make Jews transgress the Jewish laws - the exact opposite of a real messiah. "
This is an incorrect reading of the events surrounding Shabtai Tzvi, in which the writer is looking back on history and judging the entire life of Tzvi based on what we now know to be the end results of his being declared Moshiach by Jewish rabbis during his day.
That's not true.
He was advising people to break the halacha based on complicated novel pilpulim he was making in the kabbalistic literature. He was permitting that which had been forbidden. The rabbis mistakenly fell for it, but that is partly due to the widespread influence of the kabbalah at that time (and at our time, since it has already gained that foothold long ago), and it took very serious scholarship within the kabalah to prove his renderings false (if they even were false within that system)... Many great rabbis were even fooled into thinking that his "scholarship" was the logical continuation of the kabbalistic tradition which had come before him, and the logical conclusion of those sources. However, not all rabbis agreed to that.
I forget which chacham right now off the top of my head, but there was a famous chacham who famously remarked that it took him an entire year to figure out why Shabtai Tzvi's kabbalistic "scholarship" was wrong.
There is an signed and dated legal document on record, signed by the leading eminent rabbis of Shabtai Tzvi's day, which states their unanimous conviction that Shabtai Tzvi is Moshiach with assurance.
I never denied that. I confirmed that. Did you read my post?
This document exactly resembles the one signed recently by Chabad Rabbis stating their unanimous conviction that their Rebbe M. Schneerson is Moshiach with assurance.
Not surprising.
Tzvi didn't just one day show up and announce his mission as one of an iconoclast.
Actually, a major kabbalist by the name of Nathan of Gaza went around proclaiming him as such and he gradually developed a following. A huge following.
His personality literally mesmerized and transfixed his Jewish contemporaries, and all declared that never in history had such a vibrant Torah scholar appeared.
The rabbis and cantors of his day described Shabtai Tzvi's singing of Psalms as something possible only by angels, as if his soul had opened the Gates of Heaven.
What are you saying that contradicts what I wrote?
And it is also a matter of documented record that Jews everywhere on the planet packed their bags with all their belongings and waited at their front doors for their announced Moshiach to miraculously carry them away to Eretz Yisrael.
Ok, now you're exaggerating, but it is true that a majority of the Jews at that time were swept up in this fervor and thought it was real, including many major rabbis. However, there were some rabbis who were against it from the beginning, and some Jews who never ran after this.
There was already a longstanding belief among Torah scholars that Moshiach's rule may well overturn many of the legal statutes under which we now live, and this belief continues in our time.
Nope, that's the so-called "chiddush" of Nathan of Gaza's kabalah in tandem with Tzvi's "scholarship." Mistaken views of what exactly the moshiach is, contributed to this view's acceptance, but to claim that there is a basis for this notion in Jewish halachic sources is far from correct.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe M. Schneerson taught that pork might become kosher in the coming Messianic Era.
No comment.
This is why those Jews who became convinced that Shabtai Tzvi was their long awaited Moshiach would have followed his every utterance without question, exactly as we today witness hundreds of Lubavitcher Rabbis worldwide with unshakable belief that their deceased Rebbe was, and is, the Jewish Moshiach.
And I would like to add here that we have yet to fully witness what damage might or might not be caused to the Jewish People by the hundreds of "true believers" in Rabbi Schneerson who've fanned out across the planet and keep their true beliefs "silent" among themselves. I have personally been told by several of them how "at 770 holy miracles flowed like water...", and how "...when Rabbi Schneerson prayed with fervor it was as if he had left his body and been transported directly into Heaven!...".
In every historic era, the Jewish world has been filled with completely imbalanced Torah disciples - wild eyed fanatics - so out of touch with anything but their own desires and hopes that they give their complete allegiance to almost anyone who demonstrates uncommon charisma combined with profound knowledge of Torah.
As for the longstanding Jewish "Tradition" that in each generation there is someone ready to be the Moshiach if only the generation is ready to accept him...
That's all well and good - a very nice thing to teach little children and talk about in Hebrew class, but as for me I'll wait until there's no question of Moshiach's being here before I pack my bags, because I happen to harbor grave doubts about the Jews of NY City and Tel Aviv being "ready" for Moshiach when I daily watch them embracing homosexuality, crime, and national suicide.
This just shows how widespread are these mistaken notions that lead to Jewish folly. It not only leads to an incorred "straw-man" view/framing of the messiah, but it also leads to a reactionary folly against that straw man view in which good Jews are deterred from returning home!
According to HALACHA, which is the real foundation of Jewish law, (none of these mystical speculations about moshiach have anything to do with how we're supposed to Act in the world), we are supposed to "pack our bags" and return home to Israel regardless of whether moshiah is here or not. Uncomfortable for some people but true. The halacha is what guides Jewish life, not kabbalistic diyukim or mystical speculations about how ready people are, or how many flowers grow in 770, or who is here or isn't here and hasn't done anything yet.
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It is a mitzvah of Torah to await moshiach every day, as enumerated in the 13 principles of faith. It is such an important Mitzvah that one who denies the coming of Moshiach is compared to a heretic.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/The-13-Principles.htm
The great codifier of Torah law and Jewish philosophy, Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon ("Maimonides" also known as "The Rambam"), compiled what he refers to as the Shloshah Asar Ikkarim, the "Thirteen Fundamental Principles" of the Jewish faith, as derived from the Torah. Maimonides refers to these thirteen principles of faith as "the fundamental truths of our religion and its very foundations." The Thirteen Principles of Jewish faith are as follows:
1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.
2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.
3. The belief in G-d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.
4. The belief in G-d's eternity.
5. The imperative to worship G-d exclusively and no foreign false gods.
6. The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.
7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
10. The belief in G-d's omniscience and providence.
11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.
13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.
http://www.aish.com/jl/p/mp/48929482.html
We believe and affirm that the Messiah will come. One should not think he is detained. [Rather,] "If he should tarry, await him" (Habakkuk 2:3)
One is not to assign him a specific time of arrival, nor should one use Scripture to deduce when he is coming. For the Sages have said, "The souls of those who calculate the end will be shattered."
[One must also] believe that [the Messiah] will surpass all the kings who have ever ruled in terms of his grandeur, his greatness, and his honor. [Man should] exalt, love, and pray for him according to the prophecies prophesied about him by all the prophets from Moshe Rabbeinu to Malachi.
He who doubts or belittles [the Messiah's arrival] denies [the authority of the Torah, which explicitly promises his arrival] in the story of Bilaam and in Deuteronomy 30.
Included within this Principle is [the idea] that the king of Israel must come from the House of David and the seed of Solomon. Anyone who opposes this dynasty defies the Almighty and the words of His prophets.
-- Maimonides, 13 Principles of Faith
* * *
...
A JEW WITHOUT THE MESSIAH
There is no greater destructiveness for the Jewish soul than to lose the awareness of the bitterness of exile. When Jews become too comfortable in the Diaspora with their nice homes, their cars, and yes, even their Yeshivot, they start forgetting what is missing from their lives. They no longer feel the pain of exile. The comfort, leisure and affluence have contributed to the distortion of Torah, resulting in another approach to Judaism, an approach actually found amongst believing Jews who accept the Torah and its mitzvot. Those who adhere to this approach still recognize man's debt to his Creator. They still recognize the need to acknowledge the Almighty as the Source of health and comfort, and even existence itself.
They are willing to pay this debt to the fullest extent. Since this entails heeding G-d's commandments, they are willing to fulfill this obligation, just as they give a certain required amount of money to taxes, but no more. There is no concern for reaching beyond the letter of the law in order to enhance or safeguard their relationship with G-d. In questionable situations, lenient interpretations are always sought. The Torah's commandments are burdens that make the pursuit of a Western, hedonistic way of life difficult.
These people do, however, manage to observe the commandments while living this way of life. Yet, unfortunately, it is impossible to discuss with them the bitterness of galut, of exile. They would question: Why should one yearn for the coming of the Messianic era? What is missing now?
This approach is wholly inconsistent with the 12th Principle, that one must await the coming of the Messiah. How different they are from those whose lives are dedicated to coming closer to the Almighty. These Jews know and feel G-d's existence to the extent that nothing else has meaning in their lives. They exemplify the true approach. They use the resources of an affluent society only insofar as it contributes to this ultimate pleasure of drawing close to G-d. They can well understand the words of Maimonides, the feeling of eagerly awaiting the coming of the Messiah and the era he will herald.
No observant Jew will question the coming of the Messianic era as a tenet of Judaism. However, as one of the Thirteen Principles, this idea denotes much more. Here, awareness of the coming of the Messiah becomes part of the body of information that makes it possible for a member of the Jewish People to relate to the Almighty. Anyone who lacks this awareness, even if only because he was never taught, cannot be considered a practicing Jew. Why should this tenet be so crucial?
The necessity of consciously accepting the first five Principles, which deal with the existence of G-d, can be understood easily. No matter how good one's intentions are, if he has a misconception concerning the nature of G-d, he cannot correctly relate to Him or accept His sovereignty. The significance of the next four Principles, dealing with G-d's communication to man, is also self-evident. One cannot practice Judaism if he is not aware of the Torah being the Will of G-d. It has likewise been explained that awareness of reward and punishment is also essential in order to relate to the Almighty because it is impossible to serve an indifferent Creator. But why is it imperative to know that history will culminate in the coming of the Messiah?
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It is a mitzvah of Torah to await moshiach every day, as enumerated in the 13 principles of faith. It is such an important Mitzvah that one who denies the coming of Moshiach is compared to a heretic.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/The-13-Principles.htm
The great codifier of Torah law and Jewish philosophy, Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon ("Maimonides" also known as "The Rambam"), compiled what he refers to as the Shloshah Asar Ikkarim, the "Thirteen Fundamental Principles" of the Jewish faith, as derived from the Torah. Maimonides refers to these thirteen principles of faith as "the fundamental truths of our religion and its very foundations." The Thirteen Principles of Jewish faith are as follows:
1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.
2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.
3. The belief in G-d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.
4. The belief in G-d's eternity.
5. The imperative to worship G-d exclusively and no foreign false gods.
6. The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.
7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.
8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
10. The belief in G-d's omniscience and providence.
11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.
12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.
13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.
http://www.aish.com/jl/p/mp/48929482.html
We believe and affirm that the Messiah will come. One should not think he is detained. [Rather,] "If he should tarry, await him" (Habakkuk 2:3)
One is not to assign him a specific time of arrival, nor should one use Scripture to deduce when he is coming. For the Sages have said, "The souls of those who calculate the end will be shattered."
[One must also] believe that [the Messiah] will surpass all the kings who have ever ruled in terms of his grandeur, his greatness, and his honor. [Man should] exalt, love, and pray for him according to the prophecies prophesied about him by all the prophets from Moshe Rabbeinu to Malachi.
He who doubts or belittles [the Messiah's arrival] denies [the authority of the Torah, which explicitly promises his arrival] in the story of Bilaam and in Deuteronomy 30.
Included within this Principle is [the idea] that the king of Israel must come from the House of David and the seed of Solomon. Anyone who opposes this dynasty defies the Almighty and the words of His prophets.
-- Maimonides, 13 Principles of Faith
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It's good that you quote the Rambam and his 13 principles of faith because the Rambam also elaborates on what the actual criteria are for a person to be called moshiah, these are very concrete accomplishments he must first achieve to be declared thus, and we have been through this on this forum before. Furthermore, it is the Rambam who explains that the important thing is that the Messianic era is more of an age or epoch than it is about any individual person. And it is the same Rambam who proclaims that a Jew should live in Israel and it is forbidden to leave Israel. So we see that that halacha has nothing to do with the existence or not-yet-existence of the moshiach.
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Questions:
It being a given that the Moshiach is a man, is he a mortal man?
How long does the Messianic Era last?
For eternity? ... Or does it end?
And if there is an end to it, is Moshiach still living?
Does he live forever on Earth?
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Questions:
It being a given that the Moshiach is a man, is he a mortal man?
How long does the Messianic Era last?
For eternity? ... Or does it end?
And if there is an end to it, is Moshiach still living?
Does he live forever on Earth?
Yes, according to Rambam Moshiach will be a normal man... Let me find the Rambams explanation:
http://www.moshiach.com/topics/what/the-rationalist-approach-to-messianism.php
...
Throughout his messianic writings, Maimonides strives to accomplish two things. First and foremost, he seeks to alter the Jewish world's attitude toward their faith by making the knowledge and love of G-d the ultimate goal. He tries to make clam baba, the spiritual World-to-Come, the highest good in the hierarchy of rewards that Judaism promises its adherents and to make all other goods subservient to it. To this extent, Maimonides goes to the incredible extreme of subordinating even the messianic age to Olam Haba, domain of the souls. Nevertheless, he emphasizes that even so, one should not underestimate the instrumental value of messianisim, since it offers conditions that free man of mundane worries and distractions so that he can devote himself to the single-minded pursuit of knowledge of G-d.
In the days of the World-to-Come, knowledge, wisdom and truth will increase, as it is said, "For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord" (Isaiah 11:9), and it is said, "They will no more teach everyone his brother and everyone his neighbor" (Jeremiah 31:34), and further, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26). [Laws of Repentance]
He further writes concerning this point:
The days of the Messiah are not ardently longed for on account of the plentiful vegetation, and the riches which they will bring in their train, nor in order that we may ride on horses, nor that we may drink to the accompaniment of various kinds of musical instruments, as is thought by those people who are confused in their ideas on such things. No! the prophets and saints wished and ardently desired [the days of the Messiah] because it implies the coming together of the virtuous, with choice deeds of goodness and knowledge, and the justice of the king, the greatness of his wisdom and his nearness to his Creator, as it is said: "The Lord said unto me, thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee." . . . And because it implies obedience to all the laws of Moses, without interference or disquietude or constraint.... as it is promised in the words, "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them." "And I will take away the stony heart from your flesh." And there are many more similar verses on like themes. [Introduction to Helek]
Second, he strives to neutralize what might be mistaken as religious fantasy. He seems to try to counteract the people's exaggerated expectations fostered by biblical and midrashic literature and naturalize the concept of messianism by interpreting it in terms of regular patterns of nature. Wherever possible, he seems to try to make the content of messianic beliefs consistent with the order of nature by allegorizing prophetic and rabbinic statements that in their literal sense place messianism beyond the natural order.
Maimonides wrote that the Messiah himself will be mortal and that the longevity that people will enjoy in the messianic era will be a perfectly natural consequence of the conditions that will then prevail. In perhaps his most astounding pronouncement concerning the messianic age, Maimonides wrote:
But the Messiah will die but people will live for 1,000 years. The Messiah will die, and his son and son's son will reign in his stead. G-d has clearly declared his death in the words, "He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth." His kingdom will endure a very long time and the lives of men will he long also, because longevity is a consequence of the removal of sorrows and cares. Let not the fact of the duration of his kingdom for thousands of years seem strange to you, for the sages have said that when a number of good things come together, it is not an easy thing for them to separate again. [Introduction to Helek]
Maimonides explains how the length of days that people will enjoy during the messianic era need not imply a miraculous change in the natural order. When human society is free of violence, when people are not burdened psychologically by anxieties resulting from scarcity and the struggle for survival, and when people become conscious of their true human purpose, i.e., to know G-d, "then that society will be stable and ordered and its members will enjoy satisfying and lengthy lives."
Even amid his attempts to naturalize the messianic era, Maimonides nevertheless does not altogether allegorize the powers traditionally ascribed to the messianic figure:
His [the Messiah's] name will be great and fill the earth to its uttermost bounds. It will be a greater name than that of King Solomon and mightier. The nations will make peace with him and lands will obey him by reason of his great rectitude and the wonders that will come to light by his means. Any one that rises up against him G-d will destroy and make him fall into his hand. [Introduction to Helek]
And again in Laws of Repentance Maimonides adds:
Because the king who will arise from the seed of David will possess more wisdom than Solomon and will be a great prophet, approaching Moses, our teacher, he will teach the whole of the Jewish people and instruct them in the way of G-d; and all nations will come to hear him, as it is said, And at the end of days it shall come to pass that the Mount of the Lord's house shall be established as the top of the mountains [Micah 4:1; Isaiah 2:2]. [Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Teshuvah 9:8-10]
...
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/i-await-his-coming-every-day/02.htm
very long explanation of Rambams Hilchos Melachim :
Chapters 11 & 12 of Hilchos Melachim from the Mishneh Torah of the Rambam
Chapter Eleven
1. In future time, the King Mashiach[8] will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will rebuild the [Beis Ha]Mikdash and gather in the dispersed remnant of Israel. Then, in his days, all the statutes will be reinstituted as in former times. We will offer sacrifices and observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars set forth in the Torah.
Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming, denies not only [the statements of] the other prophets, but also [those of] the Torah and of Moshe, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming, stating:[9]
And the L-rd your G-d will bring back your captivity and have compassion upon you. He will return and gather you [from among all the nations].... Even if your dispersed ones are in the furthest reaches of the heavens, [from there will G-d gather you in].... G-d will bring you [to the land]....
These explicit words of the Torah include all that was said [on the subject] by all the prophets.
There is also a reference [to Mashiach] in the passage concerning Bilaam, who prophesies about the two anointed [kings]: the first anointed [king],[10] David, who saved Israel from her oppressors, and the final anointed [king] who will arise from among his descendants and save Israel [at the End of Days].[11] The following [quoted] phrases are from that passage:[12]
"I see it, but not now" - This refers to David; "I perceive it, but not in the near future" - This refers to King Mashiach.
"A star shall go forth from Yaakov" - This refers to David; "and a staff shall arise in Yisrael" - This refers to King Mashiach.
"He shall crush all of Moab's princes" - This refers to David, (as it is written,[13] "He smote Moab and measured them with a line"); "he shall break down all of Seth's descendants" - This refers to King Mashiach, (about whom it is written,[14] "He will rule from sea to sea").
"Edom will be demolished" - This refers to David, (as it is written,[15] "Edom became the servants of David"); "his enemy, Seir, will be destroyed" - This refers to King Mashiach, (as it is written,[16] "Saviors will ascend Mount Zion [to judge the mountain of Esau....]").
2. Similarly, in regard to the Cities of Refuge, it is stated,[17] "When G-d will expand your borders... you shall add three more cities." This command has never been fulfilled. [Surely,] G-d did not give this command in vain, [and thus the intent was that it be fulfilled after the coming of Mashiach]. There is no need to cite prooftexts on the concept [of the Mashiach] from the words of the prophets, for all [their] books are filled with it.
3. One should not entertain the notion that the King Mashiach must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena within the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is [definitely] not true.
[A proof can be brought from the fact that] Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest Sages of the Mishnah, was one of the supporters of King Ben Koziva, and would describe him as the King Mashiach. He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the King Mashiach until he was killed because of [his] sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not [the Mashiach]. The Sages did not ask him for any signs or wonders.
[Rather,] this is the main thrust of the matter: This Torah, with its statutes and laws, is everlasting. We may neither add to them nor detract from them.[18]
4. If a king will arise from the House of David who delves deeply into the study of the Torah and, like David his ancestor, observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G-d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.
If he succeeds in the above, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.[19]
He will then perfect the entire world, [motivating all the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written,[20] "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."
Chapter Twelve
1. One should not entertain the notion that in the Era of Mashiach any element of the natural order will be nullified, or that there will be any innovation in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern.
Although Yeshayahu[21] states, "The wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat," these [words] are an allegory and a riddle. They mean that Israel will dwell securely together with the wicked gentiles who are likened to wolves and leopards, as in the verse,[22] "A wolf of the deserts despoils them, a leopard watches over their cities." [In this Era, all nations] will return to the true faith and no longer plunder or destroy. Instead, at peace with Israel, they will eat that which is permitted, as it is written,[23] "The lion shall eat straw like the ox."
Similarly, other prophecies of this nature concerning Mashiach are analogies. In the Era of the King Mashiach, everyone will realize what was implied by these metaphors and allusions.
2. Our Sages taught:[24] "There will be no difference between the current age and the Era of Mashiach except [our emancipation from] subjugation to the [gentile] kingdoms."
The simple meaning of the words of the prophets appears to imply that the War of Gog and Magog[25] will take place at the beginning of the Messianic Age. Before the War of Gog and Magog, a prophet will arise to rectify Israel's conduct and prepare their hearts [for the Redemption], as it is written:[26] "Behold, I am sending you Eliyah(u)[27] [the prophet, before the advent of the great and awesome Day of G-d]."
He will not come [in order] to declare the pure, impure, nor to declare the impure, pure; nor [will he come in order] to disqualify the lineage of those presumed to be of flawless descent, nor to validate lineage which is presumed to be blemished. Rather, [he will come in order] to establish peace in the world; as [the above prophecy] continues,[28] "He will bring back the hearts of the fathers to the children."
Some of the Sages say that Eliyahu will appear [immediately] before the coming of Mashiach.
All these and similar matters cannot be [clearly] known by man until they occur, for they are undefined in the words of the prophets. Even the Sages have no established tradition regarding these matters, beyond what is implied by the verses; hence there is a divergence of opinion among them.
In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their precise details are among the fundamental principles of the faith. One should not occupy himself at length with the aggadot and midrashim that deal with these and similar matters, nor should he deem them of prime importance, for they bring one to neither the awe nor the love [of G-d].
Similarly, one should not try to calculate the appointed time [for the coming of Mashiach]. Our Sages declared:[29] "May the spirits of those who attempt to calculate the final time [of Mashiach's coming] expire!" Rather, one should await [his coming] and believe in the general conception of the matter, as we have explained.
3. During the Era of the King Mashiach, once his kingdom has been established and all of Israel has gathered around him, the entire [nation's] line of descent will be established on the basis of his words, through the prophetic spirit which will rest upon him. As it is written,[30] "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier."
He will purify the lineage of the Levites first, stating that "This one is a priest of defined lineage" and "This one is a Levite of defined lineage." Those whose lineage he does not recognize will be relegated to the status of Israelites. This is implied by the following verse:[31] "The governor said to them, '[They shall not eat of the most holy things] until a priest arises [who will wear] the Urim and Tumim.' " From this verse one can infer that the genealogy of those presumed to be of unquestioned [priestly and levitical] lineage will be traced by means of the prophetic spirit, and those found to be of such lineage will be made known.
He will define the lineage of the Israelites according to their tribe alone; i.e., he will make known each person's tribal origin, stating that "This one is from this tribe" and "This one is from another tribe." However, concerning a person who is presumed to be of unblemished lineage, he will not state that "He is illegitimate," or "He is of slave lineage," for the law rules that once a family has become intermingled [within the entire Jewish people], they may remain intermingled.
4. The Sages and prophets did not yearn for the Messianic Era in order that [the Jewish people] rule over the entire world, nor in order that they have dominion over the gentiles, nor that they be exalted by them, nor in order that they eat, drink and celebrate. Rather, their aspiration was that [the Jewish people] be free [to involve themselves] in Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress or disturb them, and thus be found worthy of life in the World to Come, as we explained in Hilchos Teshuvah.
5. In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delights will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden matters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of mortal potential; as it is written,[32] "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the ocean bed."
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
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Questions:
It being a given that the Moshiach is a man, is he a mortal man?
I wasn't aware that there was a different type of man.
How long does the Messianic Era last?
For eternity? ... Or does it end?
I think it's supposed to continue going although I guess anything's possible.
And if there is an end to it, is Moshiach still living?
Does he live forever on Earth?
Well we believe that eventually in the future at some time of Hashem's choosing, there will be resurrection of the dead whereby all righteous people will have eternal life. I believe moshiah will be a righteous person so he should be included as one of the people resurrected. If that does not happen during his lifetime, then he can die. Some sources speak about a moshiah ben Yosef who is killed or dies before the other moshiah ben David comes.
But this also (moshiah ben yosef) can refer to an era rather than an individual.
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
no one is worshipping! Chacham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita, if the Chief Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world. he is the leader of all Sephardim/Mizrahim
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
no one is worshipping! Chacham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita, if the Chief Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world. he is the leader of all Sephardim/Mizrahim
And a leader can be wrong. The Torah says it if you don't believe me...
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all i say is leave Chaham Ovadiah Yosef alone! dont speak bad about him, hes the biggest Rabbi in the world!
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
no one is worshipping! Chacham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita, if the Chief Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world. he is the leader of all Sephardim/Mizrahim
בס''ד
I am Sephardi/Mizrachi and he is not my leader. So he is not the leader of all the Sephardim.
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
no one is worshipping! Chacham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita, if the Chief Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world. he is the leader of all Sephardim/Mizrahim
בס''ד
I am Sephardi and he is not my leader. So he is not the leader of all the Sephardim.
Same here
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
no one is worshipping! Chacham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita, if the Chief Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world. he is the leader of all Sephardim/Mizrahim
בס''ד
I am Sephardi/Mizrachi and he is not my leader. So he is not the leader of all the Sephardim.
with all due respect to you and any other Sephardic/Mizrahi Jew, most religious Sephardim/Mizrahim have pictures of the Chaham in their house. other Jews dont like him because of politics and because of his views
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all i say is leave Chaham Ovadiah Yosef alone! dont speak bad about him, hes the biggest Rabbi in the world!
I didn't "speak bad" (sic) about him. But see, your problem is that if I say he made a mistake or challenge his judgement on logical grounds, to you that is "speaking bad" about him. But it's not.
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
no one is worshipping! Chacham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita, if the Chief Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world. he is the leader of all Sephardim/Mizrahim
בס''ד
I am Sephardi/Mizrachi and he is not my leader. So he is not the leader of all the Sephardim.
with all due respect to you and any other Sephardic/Mizrahi Jew, most religious Sephardim/Mizrahim have pictures of the Chaham in their house.
And that's relevant how? LOL
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please no hating in chaham Ovadiah Yoseh Shlita, hes the greatest rabbi today in the world.
And please no worshiping of men. It (it being avoda zara) is the worst of averoth.
no one is worshipping! Chacham Ovadiah Yosef Shlita, if the Chief Sephardic/Mizrahi Rabbi in the world. he is the leader of all Sephardim/Mizrahim
בס''ד
I am Sephardi/Mizrachi and he is not my leader. So he is not the leader of all the Sephardim.
with all due respect to you and any other Sephardic/Mizrahi Jew, most religious Sephardim/Mizrahim have pictures of the Chaham in their house. other Jews dont like him because of politics and because of his views
בס''ד
He is a Torah sage and I respect his Torah knowledge. But he was responsible for the Oslo accords which led to the murder of 1800 Jews, Hashem yikom damam. To get government bribes, he orders his corrupt Shas party to support the most evil Erev Rav traitors who are destroying Israel.
He is a leader who preaches surrender and galut cowardice. Most other Torah sages in our generation do not agree with him on issues that are essential to Jewish survival.
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with all due respect to you and any other Sephardic/Mizrahi Jew, most religious Sephardim/Mizrahim have pictures of the Chaham in their house. other Jews dont like him because of politics and because of his views
And until the 1980s, many left-wing kibbutznik households in Israel had portraits of Joseph Stalin hanging.
Your point being?
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with all due respect to you and any other Sephardic/Mizrahi Jew, most religious Sephardim/Mizrahim have pictures of the Chaham in their house. other Jews dont like him because of politics and because of his views
And until the 1980s, many left-wing kibbutznik households in Israel had portraits of Joseph Stalin hanging.
Your point being?
With all due respect there's no basis for comparison between the Communist Hitler and Rav Ovadia Yosef.
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With all due respect there's no basis for comparison between the Communist Hitler and Rav Ovadia Yosef.
My point is that just because large numbers of Israelis feel a certain way doesn't make them right.
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with all due respect to you and any other Sephardic/Mizrahi Jew, most religious Sephardim/Mizrahim have pictures of the Chaham in their house. other Jews dont like him because of politics and because of his views
And until the 1980s, many left-wing kibbutznik households in Israel had portraits of Joseph Stalin hanging.
Your point being?
With all due respect there's no basis for comparison between the Communist Hitler and Rav Ovadia Yosef.
I certainly agree with this...
We can disagree with Rav Yosef without resorting to such disrespect..
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I certainly agree with this...
We can disagree with Rav Yosef without resorting to such disrespect..
I already explained myself, see above.
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I certainly agree with this...
We can disagree with Rav Yosef without resorting to such disrespect..
I already explained myself, see above.
I understand your analogy...