JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Daniel on October 11, 2010, 10:31:51 PM
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There are apparently many of you who have misunderstood what I have been trying to express here. It was never my intention to suggest that religious Jews are Nazis. I was trying to explain the exact opposite. I explicitly stated that Judaism is NOT a Nazi religion. But for those of you who thought I was calling religious Jews or any of you Nazis, then I apologize. But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality. It has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism or being religious. Homophobia is form of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, fascism, and ignorance and no amount of theological references can ever justify this type of mentality and behavior. Homphobia is the same form of bigotry and intolerance as antisemetism. But please don't misunderstand me. I do not accuse religious Jews of being Nazis and do not accuse any of you personally of being a Nazi. I merely state that homophobia is a Nazi philosophy. You can disagree with me and flame me on that matter if you'd like. But please understand that I am merely attacking the mentality and philosophy and not attacking any of you personally and definitely not attacking religious Jews. After all, most religious Jews that I know do not espouse homophobic viewpoints.
Dr. Dan, I am a decent person and believe that you are too. I apologize if I said anything to offend you and if I was wrong about you. You believe that I am mistaken in my ways and I believe that you are a decent person who is mistaken and deceived in your ways. But we'll just have to agree to disagree like decent and mature gentlemen. I do not have a mental disease. I was just angry about the wrong assumptions you were making on me and shifting the issue on me and placing me on trial instead of the bigoted mentality which is what I was trying to put on trial and what I think should really be put on trial here.
Aish Dina, you accuse me of being a fascist. If that's the case, then I am a fascist for opposing fascism. Then I must also be intolerant for not tolerating intolerance, I'm a bigot for opposing, bigotry, I'm close minded for not opening up my mind to close mindedness. I'm a hater for hating hatred. I guess I must also be a racist for objecting to racism. To accuse me of facism because I oppose homophobia is like calling someone a fascist because they oppose antisemetism. They're both forms of bigotry and hatred. But let me make it abundantly clear that even though I disagree with people who espouse homophobic beliefs, I will always defend your right to say whatever you want to say. After all, I wouldn't be a true liberal if I tried to stop the flow of free speech :) So say whatever it is you'd like to say. I may not agree with it. But I will defend your right to say it. Now what fascist would ever espouse something like that? But just remember at the same time, that I also have the freedom to disagree.
To all of you, I apologize for the acrimonious way that I have been expressing myself. This is an issue I feel strongly about. I personally do not care in the least whether or not someone is gay. But I am and have been a very strong homophobe-phobe and gay basher-basher for many years now. It's nothing personal against any of you. Whether or not you agree with me, to help you better understand, just think about the way you are all anti-antisemites. Although you don't see antisemetism and homophobia to be the same, please at least understand that I do see them as being the same and that is where I am coming from with my mentality and attitudes.
Tonight at Manhattan Jewish Experience (which is an orthodox organization), the rabbi made a point that even though people might differ significantly on issues, that it doesn't mean that we should view ourselves as enemies. We can have significant disagreements on philosophical, theological, and moral matters without considering ourselves as being enemies.
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But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.
In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.
Homphobia is the same form of bigotry and intolerance as antisemetism.
? Again, please explain this point.
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But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.
In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.
+1
Generally, the term homophobia is used inaccurately; no one is scared of or fears homosexuals.
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Daniel,
You did the right thing to apologize to the religious Jews on the forum. The one thing that personally shocked me most in your comments yesterday was to call them Nazis because they explained to you that there is no way that the Torah condones homosexual behavior. Reading your post, I believe you sincerely repent for that and that is a good thing.
A vast majority of JTFers, including me, resent homosexual behavior. One major reason is that this is a predominantly religious forum, but there are also strong non-religious reasons to resent homosexual behavior, in particular because it severely undermines the family structure which we all agree here to be an essential pillar of society.
However, I don't think any of us would advocate the use of violence against homosexuals, at least I certainly don't. I gather there are two categories of people in this forum :
1) Those who want to eliminate homosexuality - but with a compassionate approach, trying to help homosexuals overcome their issues and understanding that it is difficult for them.
2) Those, more "liberal", who tolerate homosexuality as long as it is kept private.
The one thing that, I believe, everyone resents here, including the more liberal ones, is the public promotion of homosexuality.
It must be very hard to have homosexual inclination and care for Judaism (or Christianity for that matter) at the same time, because I understand that this is not something you can get easily get rid of by an act of will : I guess that when you feel a spontaneous physical attraction to men, you can't suddenly reverse that and declare : "From now on, I'll feel attracted by women !".
About your voting for Obama, let's see things positively : I gather that you are a former left-winger and, at some point, you realized you were wrong and you joined JTF. Well, you're probably not the only one here ! As far as I'm concerned, I never was a leftist but I now realize I was once pretty dumb on some issues. What matters is whether you really have changed. Have you ?
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Yaacov well written post my exact sentiments. I'm one of those people who attack the behavior and even more so attack the tolerance and promotion of the behavior. We are supposed to. I am against bullying a homosexual. I'm against humiliating one. It's one thing to protest a gay pride parade and another to pick on a person who leaves everybody else alone. There are appropriate ways to approach a single human being.
I have a problem with people who call you Nazi or homophobic when you express reasonable opinions such as the ones stated. most reasonable people on this forum including chaim for the most part agree with this point of view. those who jump off the handle and assume we are homophobic have to realize that they are doing a fascist thing. religious people have a right to speak out their mind on the issue without being tabled nazi.
Daniel i accept your attempt to apologize as an apology. however we aren't finished yet. you have responded to my posts and several other people on the forum with false accusations of Nazi homophobia. It's a passionate subject for you but take the time to have an honest debate before you fly off the handle again.
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re: Fascism.
Daniel, can you provide a definition for this [personally I do not need one]?
Hint: It's a Leftist/Marxist philosophy.
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Talk about beating a dead horse...Get out the resuscitator if it revives everyone can have another go at it. :::D
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But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.
In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.
+1
Generally, the term homophobia is used inaccurately; no one is scared of or fears homosexuals.
This is a common tactic that is used by homophobes, to play semantic word games with the word. I'm reminded of many years ago when a few of my friends were debating our former friend. At one point, he actually stated, "You call me a homophobe. But I'm not a homophobe, because phobia means fear, and I'm not scared of them, cause I'll kick their ass!" And he was being dead serious.
If we're going to have an intellectually honest discussion about this, then let's not play any semantic word games. homophbia refers to the mentality of being anti-gay, whether it stems from religious belief, insecurity of one's own sexuality, or just a hatred or intolerance of those who are different from themselves.
Also, to say that no one is afraid of homosexuals is not accurate. There are plenty of people who are scared or feel uncomfortable around homosexuals. I think what more accurate thing to state is that many people are insecure and uncertain about their own sexuality and are scared of the sexuality within themselves. This is what causes many people to engage in homophobic behavior. It's their way of fighting against themselves and projecting this onto others. This is what many psychologists and mental health professionals believe. It's not just me. So if you think I'm suffering from a mental disease for stating this, then you also need to believe that the mental health professions are suffering from mental diseases.
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Daniel,
You did the right thing to apologize to the religious Jews on the forum. The one thing that personally shocked me most in your comments yesterday was to call them Nazis because they explained to you that there is no way that the Torah condones homosexual behavior. Reading your post, I believe you sincerely repent for that and that is a good thing.
A vast majority of JTFers, including me, resent homosexual behavior. One major reason is that this is a predominantly religious forum, but there are also strong non-religious reasons to resent homosexual behavior, in particular because it severely undermines the family structure which we all agree here to be an essential pillar of society.
However, I don't think any of us would advocate the use of violence against homosexuals, at least I certainly don't. I gather there are two categories of people in this forum :
1) Those who want to eliminate homosexuality - but with a compassionate approach, trying to help homosexuals overcome their issues and understanding that it is difficult for them.
2) Those, more "liberal", who tolerate homosexuality as long as it is kept private.
I agree with this statement for the most part. However, there are some, al biet very few, who it seems do get pleasure at seeing news of violence against gays and think that that's a good thing, even though nobody on this forum actually engages in anti-gay violence.
The one thing that, I believe, everyone resents here, including the more liberal ones, is the public promotion of homosexuality.
Again, I have never publicly promoted homosexuality. I have only publicly condemned homophobia. There is a very big difference between the two.
It must be very hard to have homosexual inclination and care for Judaism (or Christianity for that matter) at the same time, because I understand that this is not something you can get easily get rid of by an act of will : I guess that when you feel a spontaneous physical attraction to men, you can't suddenly reverse that and declare : "From now on, I'll feel attracted by women !".
I fully agree with this. Attraction is not a choice. Why in the world would anyone "choose" to be attracted to people of the same gender where that leads to mocking, persecution, humiliation, attacks and alienation by so city? Do we honestly think that they're doing this just to be rebellious? I certainly never met any gays that are like this.
About your voting for Obama, let's see things positively : I gather that you are a former left-winger and, at some point, you realized you were wrong and you joined JTF. Well, you're probably not the only one here ! As far as I'm concerned, I never was a leftist but I now realize I was once pretty dumb on some issues. What matters is whether you really have changed. Have you ?
That's not quite right. I am still a left winger. I am merely a former peacenick. I used to believe strongly in the peace process. But don't anymore, not because I believe it's a "hillul hashem", but because on purely pragmatic reasons, the peace process has only served to increase the violence and bloodshed on both sides. I now state, "What's the point in having a peace process if it's not going to lead to a peace result?" However, if I ever do see the possibility of a peace process leading to real peace, I will switch my viewpoints back. I wish and hope that can happen. Yet at the same time, I'm being realistic and realize that this will probably never happen. The only way to insure peace right now is through oppressive strength. It's unfortunate, but true. So on the issue of Israel alone, you could say that I have moved more to the right over time.
However, on just about all other issues, I still take on a more liberal and left wing stance and do so unapologetically and have no plans on ever changing this.
As far as Obama goes, I'm still waiting for him to make a Helen Thomas-type remark but still have not heard these types of words come out of his mouth. He seems to be stating the same exact rhetoric as all previous presidents that Israel's security is sacrosanct, yet we also need to move towards striving to create a palestinian state. It's the same exact rhetoric that all prior previous presidents have used. So I really don't see any differences between Obama and Clinton. In fact, so far, it seems like Obama has been less involved in Israel than Clinton, and even less involved compared to Carter. So while Obama might not be good for Israel, I certainly don't see him as being the very worst president for Israel. Even Bush was worse since he was the one that caused Hamas to gain power by insisting on "free elections" which was the worst possible thing he could have done. Perhaps I'm being blind an naive for thinking this and you certainly have the right to think and express this.
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Daniel, thank you for your apology.
I don't think anyone here condones harassing, bullying or harming homosexuals. They just oppose the sex between two men, and the promotion of it. Now whether or not homosexuality is inborn or not is an area in which we'll have to agree to disagree.
Anyway, I'll leave this thread open a little longer so people can share their last thoughts on this topic, then it's getting locked.
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Dr. Dan, with all due respect, I don't think that I flew off the handle anymore than how most people engage in everyday dialogue on this forum. This forum constantly espouses and engages in the most disgusting and outrageous racial epithets which is something that I consider way beyond the pale of any type of handle to fly off. Yet, NOBODY ever gets reprimanded or accused of "flying off the handle" with these types of expressions. I find that to be extremely hypocritical that all other types of the most vicious ad hominem attacks are constantly tolerated on this forum, yet when I voice my grievances on homophobia, I'm being accused of "flying off the handle." So we're basically saying that on a religious forum, if someone attacks homophobia, they are engaging in fascism. But the constant stream of the most disgusting vile racism that takes place on this forum is not considered to be fascist in the least and is something that is completely tolerated and acceptable. Yet I would once again be labeled a fascist if I labeled this type of racism to be Nazi-like. Something just doesn't seem right about that, to say the very least!
Also, I want to make it clear to you that when I was saying to you that you might be gay or you might know someone who is gay and how you shouldn't beat them up if you do, I was being completely sarcastic and facetious for the purpose of illustrating the lunacy of those remarks that you were stating to me about how I might be gay and how if I am, I shouldn't engage in any gay behavior. I don't think that you picked up on my sarcasm there. You must have thought I was being serious, and that's therefore why you concluded that I must have a mental disease. But please note that I was being sarcastic and facetious. However, you were the one who was being serious with your remarks, remarks which were completely incorrect and irrational. I was merely trying to respond with sarcasm to demonstrate this. I hope you understand this.
Yaacov well written post my exact sentiments. I'm one of those people who attack the behavior and even more so attack the tolerance and promotion of the behavior. We are supposed to. I am against bullying a homosexual. I'm against humiliating one. It's one thing to protest a gay pride parade and another to pick on a person who leaves everybody else alone. There are appropriate ways to approach a single human being.
I have a problem with people who call you Nazi or homophobic when you express reasonable opinions such as the ones stated. most reasonable people on this forum including chaim for the most part agree with this point of view. those who jump off the handle and assume we are homophobic have to realize that they are doing a fascist thing. religious people have a right to speak out their mind on the issue without being tabled nazi.
Daniel i accept your attempt to apologize as an apology. however we aren't finished yet. you have responded to my posts and several other people on the forum with false accusations of Nazi homophobia. It's a passionate subject for you but take the time to have an honest debate before you fly off the handle again.
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Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially? Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with?
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As far as Obama goes, I'm still waiting for him to make a Helen Thomas-type remark but still have not heard these types of words come out of his mouth. He seems to be stating the same exact rhetoric as all previous presidents
Actions are more telling than words. It's what you do that matters, especially what you do behind the scenes, not what you say in front of cameras. Obama is not stupid, he knows he can't make an overtly antisemitic statement in his position.
But what is he doing ? He is pressuring Israel to accept the creation of a "Palestinian" state, he is trying to forbid Jews to build in Yosh and to have them expelled, and he does everything he can to refrain Israel from striking Iran's nuclear program.
Isn't that enough for you ? He would probably want to do even more and faster, but, fortunately : 1) the American political system has checks and balances and the power of the President is bounded, 2) the majority of the American people still supports Israel, at least supports Israel more than Obama, so he knows he has to be cautious. But he is still doing a lot of harm !
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By the way, since you compared Obama's stance with those of Bush and Clinton, I also strongly resented both their positions on Israel, especially Clinton, what a nauseating pig... Bush was very bad but somehow less intrusive.
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Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially? Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with?
Great question Lisa. I didn't follow the whole flamewar here but I am curious as to why a proud Obama voter even posts at JTF at all.
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Talk about beating a dead horse...Get out the resuscitator if it revives everyone can have another go at it. :::D
You mean Rodell Verreen? :laugh: :::D :laugh: :::D
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Who is Roddell Verreen?
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Daniel:
But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.
So, now you are calling G-d a NAZI?
Leviticus 18:
כב וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה: תּוֹעֵבָה, הִוא. 22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
You cant have your cake and eat it too. I am sure that G-d loves people, but the actions will send them to hell. You need to tell the truth more, and stop being a wuss.
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I DO agree that it is the right thing to do to not be fascistic in your adoption of the gays, by expecting us to do so as well. But you cant go around calling G-d a NAZI for making up the rules.
I have helped MANY 'gay' people, Daniel. I can tell you this much; They departed their abominations, 2 of them, one has a beautiful son and the other is married and has been living with AIDS for over 15 years. He also has a son, both of these people are Christians, which was not MY doing, but I can tell you that them making a turn to G-d and seeing that ONE scripture for what it is SAVED THEIR LIVES. I helped them through some terrible agonizing times, and we all need to do this when in the path of a 'gay' that is miserable, because most of them ARE miserable people. That is a FACT.
To save one life, is to save the world entire.
They, both are now invloved in Churches and synagogues telling the TRUTH and saving lives from the hell on earth that is homosexuality.
Thanks for apologizing to these people, they are NOT Nazis and neither is G-d. "Homo-phobic" is a MADE UP word by Bolsheviks, Daniel, please work on this brainwashing that you have been indoctrinated with. I was also a little brainwashed, so I know..
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I think it is shameful to equate Homophobia to Antisemitism in both historical context and objective definition. It is incorrect in every possible way. Persecution of Jews cannot be equated to persecution of homosexuals (if there ever was in fact mass persecution of gays). Also, homosexual people do not truly form a community, or any form of cohesive social group, just as left handers, or people with pierced eyebrow, are not a community. Lastly, homophobia is directed at the way homosexuals behave and present themselves, and although it is not justified, a homosexual have a choice of not acting out as gays in places that don't tolerate such behavior. Whereas antisemites simply hate Jews because there are Jews, independently of the way Jews as individuals or as groups behave and present themselves.
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But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.
In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.
+1
Generally, the term homophobia is used inaccurately; no one is scared of or fears homosexuals.
This is a common tactic that is used by homophobes, to play semantic word games with the word. I'm reminded of many years ago when a few of my friends were debating our former friend. At one point, he actually stated, "You call me a homophobe. But I'm not a homophobe, because phobia means fear, and I'm not scared of them, cause I'll kick their donkey!" And he was being dead serious.
If we're going to have an intellectually honest discussion about this, then let's not play any semantic word games. homophbia refers to the mentality of being anti-gay, whether it stems from religious belief, insecurity of one's own sexuality, or just a hatred or intolerance of those who are different from themselves.
Also, to say that no one is afraid of homosexuals is not accurate. There are plenty of people who are scared or feel uncomfortable around homosexuals. I think what more accurate thing to state is that many people are insecure and uncertain about their own sexuality and are scared of the sexuality within themselves. This is what causes many people to engage in homophobic behavior. It's their way of fighting against themselves and projecting this onto others. This is what many psychologists and mental health professionals believe. It's not just me. So if you think I'm suffering from a mental disease for stating this, then you also need to believe that the mental health professions are suffering from mental diseases.
First off homophobic means discomfort being around the same sex...so let's say you go to a public shower and you feel uncomfortable being around other naked men, that would make you homophobic. One who fears or is uncomfortable around homosexuals are homosexualphobic. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either irregardless of what the undermining reason is.
For many heterosexual men, they feel uncomfortable being around homosexuals. It doesn't always mean they hate homosexuals or want to beat them up. It's a normal feeling for some men. It doesn't make them a racist or anything terrible. Of course there is nothing to be afraid of. In Western culture, it's not common for men to kiss each other on the cheek out of friendship. To each their own.
Secondly, there is no game here, Daniel. We wanted to know what you meant by anti-gay. Is not hating a homosexual person but hating homosexuality anti gay to you? I mean, all out beating up a gay guy because he's gay is anti-gay and down right a terrible thing to do. Bullying someone who is gay, is anti-gay and not a nice thing to do. Protesting a gay pride parade without violence because one is against the sanctioning and acceptance of homosexual sex as an ok alternative style is not anti-gay. Being against gay marriage is not anti-gay...we need you to define what to you is anti-gay so we can proceed with a discussion.
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I felt you were flying off the handle when you were accusing KWRBT and Muman of homophobia when they weren't. It also seemed that you were not channeling the proper retort on their questions. I had to step in out of frustration.
As far as certain other members who feel like throwing out epithets here or there whenever there is an honest discussion going on, yes, they are flying off the handle and that's why the previous thread we were in was locked.
Nevertheless, again, I appreciate the apology, we can move forward and talk more about this and see where it goes. On this subject I think we will find a middle ground somewhere..or simply agree to disagree.
Dr. Dan, with all due respect, I don't think that I flew off the handle anymore than thow most people engage in everyday dialogue on this forum. This forum constantly espouses and engages in the most disgusting and outrageous racial epithets which is something that I consider way beyond the pale of any type of handle to fly off. Yet, NOBODY ever gets reprimanded or accused of "flying off the handle" with these types of expressions. I find that to be extremely hypocritical that all other types of the most vicious ad hominem attacks are constantly tolerated on this forum, yet when I voice my grievances on homophobia, I'm being accused of "flying off the handle." So we're basically saying that on a religious forum, if someone attacks homophobia, they are engaging in fascism. But the constant stream of the most disgusting vile racism that takes place on this forum is not considered to be fascist in the least and is something that is completely tolerated and acceptable. Yet I would once again be labeled a fascist if I labeled this type of racism to be Nazi-like. Something just doesn't seem right about that, to say the very least!
Also, I want to make it clear to you that when I was saying to you that you might be gay or you might know someone who is gay and how you shouldn't beat them up if you do, I was being completely sarcastic and facetious for the purpose of illustrating the lunacy of those remarks that you were stating to me about how I might be gay and how if I am, I shouldn't engage in any gay behavior. I don't think that you picked up on my sarcasm there. You must have thought I was being serious, and that's therefore why you concluded that I must have a mental disease. But please note that I was being sarcastic and facetious. However, you were the one who was being serious with your remarks, remarks which were completely incorrect and irrational. I was merely trying to respond with sarcasm to demonstrate this. I hope you understand this.
Yaacov well written post my exact sentiments. I'm one of those people who attack the behavior and even more so attack the tolerance and promotion of the behavior. We are supposed to. I am against bullying a homosexual. I'm against humiliating one. It's one thing to protest a gay pride parade and another to pick on a person who leaves everybody else alone. There are appropriate ways to approach a single human being.
I have a problem with people who call you Nazi or homophobic when you express reasonable opinions such as the ones stated. most reasonable people on this forum including chaim for the most part agree with this point of view. those who jump off the handle and assume we are homophobic have to realize that they are doing a fascist thing. religious people have a right to speak out their mind on the issue without being tabled nazi.
Daniel i accept your attempt to apologize as an apology. however we aren't finished yet. you have responded to my posts and several other people on the forum with false accusations of Nazi homophobia. It's a passionate subject for you but take the time to have an honest debate before you fly off the handle again.
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Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially? Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with?
What drew me to JTF initially was finding Chaim's show on Public Access TV long before I ever agreed with him on anything. I watched him since I found him to be extremely amusing and entertaining. To this day, I am really intrigued by him since he is the only person who cracks me up and scares the living crap outa me at the same time. I like listening to his show and enjoy hearing my questions read on the show and being answered. I don't know of anywhere else online where this type of show, where our questions are read out loud and responded to, takes place anywhere else online.
That's a short answer for the time being. A little later, when I have more time, I'm gonna come completely clean about who I really am and what makes me tick. I'll reveal things about myself that I have not revealed yet and will reveal everything about what has motivated to be involved with JTF. I will do this later when I have more time.
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looking forward to it and debating someone with a mainstream opposing view.
Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially? Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with?
What drew me to JTF initially was finding Chaim's show on Public Access TV long before I ever agreed with him on anything. I watched him since I found him to be extremely amusing and entertaining. To this day, I am really intrigued by him since he is the only person who cracks me up and scares the living crap outa me at the same time. I like listening to his show and enjoy hearing my questions read on the show and being answered. I don't know of anywhere else online where this type of show, where our questions are read out loud and responded to, takes place anywhere else online.
That's a short answer for the time being. A little later, when I have more time, I'm gonna come completely clean about who I really am and what makes me tick. I'll reveal things about myself that I have not revealed yet and will reveal everything about what has motivated to be involved with JTF. I will do this later when I have more time.
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OK people, since Daniel has apologized, and many of us have had our say here, I'm locking this thread.
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I think many of us came to JTF after realizing our previously held beliefs were, in fact, terribly incorrect. I am a lot less worried about Daniel's free thinking than I am other member's speaking styles. No one seems to want to 'get this,' but for the good of this forum, I hope they do. Daniel's behavior on this forum has not been nazi-like from anything I recall. This is in STARK STARK contrast to rare rare other members here who really have a vicious fascist, and ultimately anti-Jewish mindset, who think nothing of engaging in rancid pornographic comments to defile other members. Think about it.
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Thank you Daniel for sharing your explanations and opinions.
AsheDina, and Dr. Dan, I agree with what you have said.
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jtf;
When people get attacked FIRST, you should not be upset when they retaliate.
Pascifism is not supposed to be part of our lifestyle here.
WE got called NAZIS first, afraid you have the facts confused.
WE were called the 'brain WASHERS', not the vc versa. therefore, WHO is the fascist? Not us.
People should be allowed to not only retaliate with false allegations, but the aggressors should be well enough prepared to get it back--even WORSE than how THEY attack. Like that one person opening a thread with my name on it, when this person KNOWS that I work hard hfor jtf. He could have IM'd--that was nasty, inconsiderate, and IMs are OPEN for this person to have talked with me, or cooled his little jets. I explained to this person OVER AND OVER about homosexuals in my life, and he REFUSED to listen. Just attacked, so I attacked back.
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If is VERY fascistic for people to come and FORCE THEIR ways in an already established forum and movement.
Lastly, and this is it for me, since these 2 others ones have screwed up my day;
This is a forum of religious Jews, spiritual Jews, right wing Jews, Christians and righteous gentiles.
I highly doubt that you are going to find people that want to be BOUND UP in the left wing indoctrination and fascism of FORCING us to accept lifestyles of homosexuals and immorality when it is AGAINST what we believe.
THAT should have been recognized by ANYONE that came here, and if YOU all dont like it (or at least the other 2 'gay' friendly people that hate truth), THEY should NOT have FORCED US to succomb to THEIR beliefs, or therefore LACK OF.
Sin and abomination is BOUND UP and NOT free.
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Ashedina,
I understand what you are saying and you've made it clear exactly how you stand in regard to this issue: non-violence/bullying to the individual vs. Promoting sexual behavior that is in direct violation of biblical commandment.
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while i disagree with a lot of people on JTF on a lot of things, accusing people here of being nazis is uncalled for.
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while i disagree with a lot of people on JTF on a lot of things, accusing people here of being nazis is uncalled for.
unless they are nazis of course.
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while i disagree with a lot of people on JTF on a lot of things, accusing people here of being nazis is uncalled for.
unless they are nazis of course.
LOL (not funny in it's truest of course)
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while i disagree with a lot of people on JTF on a lot of things, accusing people here of being nazis is uncalled for.
unless they are nazis of course.
LOL (not funny in it's truest of course)
:P :P :P :P :P :P 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) ;D
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So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
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So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
KWBRT,
I dont think this subject if pursued will have a happy ending. I'm not saying that to silence anyone. Please dialogue. In light of the past few threads, I am thinking that more talk on this might not help bridge the divide. When most people use the term homophobic, they use it to imply that someone is anti-gay, which you, and many other forum members have countered by stating that there is no fear or hatred of the person, but rather there is strong disagreement with their sexual object choice. Biblically, it's a sin. Gays would argue that their innate desire to love someone of the same sex is not inherently sinful. They cite nature, others cite morality and there is an endless back and forth that usually goes nowhere. I have to agree with Dr. Dan's last post in it's entirety I think.
I think if some people can genuinely come out of homosexuality, then I wish them the best. I do not think that is a feasable option for most and so in my mind we are left with a scale. I also think those with a naturally low sex drive are at an absolute advantage here. It doesn't remove the need for companionship, but it does decrease the need for sex which often goes hand in hand with companionship.
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So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
KWBRT,
I dont think this subject if pursued will have a happy ending.
Not all things do, but I'm asking for a reason. I want the terms to be clear and known. I mean really, the guy accuses "JTF" of violating his sensibilities -so shouldn't he at least define for us what they are? Then we can determine if his accusation is accurate. Or even if it is accurate, whether or not his "sensibilities" are sensible at all! It seems to me that any of this is above consideration according to him. But I'm still waiting to find out if I'm wrong in that interpretation.
I'm not saying that to silence anyone. Please dialogue. In light of the past few threads, I am thinking that more talk on this might not help bridge the divide. When most people use the term homophobic, they use it to imply that someone is anti-gay,
True, and I'm wondering how Daniel is using the term since he brought it up and he even equates it with antisemitism . I don't want to make assumptions about his view based on what others (even most others) say or do.
which you, and many other forum members have countered by stating that there is no fear or hatred of the person, but rather there is strong disagreement with their sexual object choice. Biblically, it's a sin. Gays would argue that their innate desire to love someone of the same sex is not inherently sinful. They cite nature, others cite morality and there is an endless back and forth that usually goes nowhere.
Actually, their innate desire is not sinful. It's acting on it that is sinful.
Aside from that though, the part in bold I think is probably true. But I don't see that this happened with Daniel. I see that there were strong accusations made, but made in a cowardly way. It seems the person is unwilling to state outright the logic behind the accusation. I am trying to bridge THAT gap and get the real views out in the open. I do so by asking questions and asking for clarifications. It's then up to him to let his real views be known (whatever they may be).
I have to agree with Dr. Dan's last post in it's entirety I think.
I think if some people can genuinely come out of homosexuality, then I wish them the best. I do not think that is a feasable option for most and so in my mind we are left with a scale. I also think those with a naturally low sex drive are at an absolute advantage here. It doesn't remove the need for companionship, but it does decrease the need for sex which often goes hand in hand with companionship.
What do you mean by "we are left with a scale" (sorry, I didn't read all of what Dr. Dan said in this thread).
Your point about sex drive certainly rings true.
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
Indeed, that last part is also quite relevant. He did say he's going to give us a long story when he comes back so hopefully that will be covered.
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
not sure about Daniel, but seeing as i am the other big lib on here:
i agree with the JTF platform on where to send the arabs
i agree that the jewish people have exlusive rights to the land of israel (everything between the nile an the euphrates)
and therefore should have exlusive voting rights
i agree that foreign aid is foreign AIDS
i disagree on JTF's position on the blacks
i slightly disagree on immigration, we should allow 3rd world immigration, as long as its legal
i disagree on the drug policy, we should legalize weed and decriminalize the other things.
we should allow more personal choices in general
i think israel should be semi-secular
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
not sure about Daniel, but seeing as i am the other big lib on here:
i agree with the JTF platform on where to send the arabs
i agree that the jewish people have exlusive rights to the land of israel (everything between the nile an the euphrates)
and therefore should have exlusive voting rights
i agree that foreign aid is foreign AIDS
i disagree on JTF's position on the blacks
i slightly disagree on immigration, we should allow 3rd world immigration, as long as its legal
i disagree on the drug policy, we should legalize weed and decriminalize the other things.
we should allow more personal choices in general
i think israel should be semi-secular
Why do the Jews have to have land in Palestine? Without Torah there is no imperative to have Jews in that land.
This weeks Torah portion contains the covenant between Hashem and Abraham, where the land of Caanan was promised to the descendants of Abraham through Yitzak. If not for this Parasha there would be no Jewish people nor an Eretz Yisroel.
If you just want to accept one part of the Torah while rejecting all the moral and civil laws, then you are not being honest and should reconsider your position.
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
not sure about Daniel, but seeing as i am the other big lib on here:
i agree with the JTF platform on where to send the arabs
i agree that the jewish people have exlusive rights to the land of israel (everything between the nile an the euphrates)
and therefore should have exlusive voting rights
i agree that foreign aid is foreign AIDS
i disagree on JTF's position on the blacks
i slightly disagree on immigration, we should allow 3rd world immigration, as long as its legal
i disagree on the drug policy, we should legalize weed and decriminalize the other things.
we should allow more personal choices in general
i think israel should be semi-secular
Why do the Jews have to have land in Palestine? Without Torah there is no imperative to have Jews in that land.
This weeks Torah portion contains the covenant between Hashem and Abraham, where the land of Caanan was promised to the descendants of Abraham through Yitzak. If not for this Parasha there would be no Jewish people nor an Eretz Yisroel.
If you just want to accept one part of the Torah while rejecting all the moral and civil laws, then you are not being honest and should reconsider your position.
i think that people should voluntarily follow the Torah instead of having the government force people to do it.
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
not sure about Daniel, but seeing as i am the other big lib on here:
i agree with the JTF platform on where to send the arabs
i agree that the jewish people have exlusive rights to the land of israel (everything between the nile an the euphrates)
and therefore should have exlusive voting rights
i agree that foreign aid is foreign AIDS
i disagree on JTF's position on the blacks
i slightly disagree on immigration, we should allow 3rd world immigration, as long as its legal
i disagree on the drug policy, we should legalize weed and decriminalize the other things.
we should allow more personal choices in general
i think israel should be semi-secular
Why do the Jews have to have land in Palestine? Without Torah there is no imperative to have Jews in that land.
This weeks Torah portion contains the covenant between Hashem and Abraham, where the land of Caanan was promised to the descendants of Abraham through Yitzak. If not for this Parasha there would be no Jewish people nor an Eretz Yisroel.
If you just want to accept one part of the Torah while rejecting all the moral and civil laws, then you are not being honest and should reconsider your position.
i think that people should voluntarily follow the Torah instead of having the government force people to do it.
Then why force Jews to live in Israel? Why not in Ethiopia or Uganda?
I think people should voluntarily obey the laws of physics and the laws of gravity...
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
not sure about Daniel, but seeing as i am the other big lib on here:
i agree with the JTF platform on where to send the arabs
i agree that the jewish people have exlusive rights to the land of israel (everything between the nile an the euphrates)
and therefore should have exlusive voting rights
i agree that foreign aid is foreign AIDS
i disagree on JTF's position on the blacks
i slightly disagree on immigration, we should allow 3rd world immigration, as long as its legal
i disagree on the drug policy, we should legalize weed and decriminalize the other things.
we should allow more personal choices in general
i think israel should be semi-secular
Why do the Jews have to have land in Palestine? Without Torah there is no imperative to have Jews in that land.
This weeks Torah portion contains the covenant between Hashem and Abraham, where the land of Caanan was promised to the descendants of Abraham through Yitzak. If not for this Parasha there would be no Jewish people nor an Eretz Yisroel.
If you just want to accept one part of the Torah while rejecting all the moral and civil laws, then you are not being honest and should reconsider your position.
i think that people should voluntarily follow the Torah instead of having the government force people to do it.
Then why force Jews to live in Israel? Why not in Ethiopia or Uganda?
no one is forcing anyone to go anywhere
notice how i said semi-secular.
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Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
not sure about Daniel, but seeing as i am the other big lib on here:
i agree with the JTF platform on where to send the arabs
i agree that the jewish people have exlusive rights to the land of israel (everything between the nile an the euphrates)
and therefore should have exlusive voting rights
i agree that foreign aid is foreign AIDS
i disagree on JTF's position on the blacks
i slightly disagree on immigration, we should allow 3rd world immigration, as long as its legal
i disagree on the drug policy, we should legalize weed and decriminalize the other things.
we should allow more personal choices in general
i think israel should be semi-secular
Why do the Jews have to have land in Palestine? Without Torah there is no imperative to have Jews in that land.
This weeks Torah portion contains the covenant between Hashem and Abraham, where the land of Caanan was promised to the descendants of Abraham through Yitzak. If not for this Parasha there would be no Jewish people nor an Eretz Yisroel.
If you just want to accept one part of the Torah while rejecting all the moral and civil laws, then you are not being honest and should reconsider your position.
i think that people should voluntarily follow the Torah instead of having the government force people to do it.
Then why force Jews to live in Israel? Why not in Ethiopia or Uganda?
no one is forcing anyone to go anywhere
notice how i said semi-secular.
If the 'Jewish State' is in Palestine, then you are forcing those Jews who have no place to go to go to Palestine. If you make the 'Jewish State' in Africa then Jews will go to Africa...
Why should we force arabs to leave the land of Palestine if there is no imperative that Jews dwell in that land. The fact is that Eretz Yisroel is the HOLY LAND for the Jewish people, and that is the ONLY LOGICAL reason that a 'Jewish State' or 'Zionist Entity' exists.
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Liberal,
I assume you also support assisted suicide and abortion also... Because your moral ground has no basis in morality.. At least it is my opinion that you too believe that you are smart enough to know what is moral based on your own wisdom. Those who believe this usually realize when they grow older that they have erred.
Look at our wisest sage Solomon, he too erred because he thought he was smarter than Hashem... He realized it, but it was virtually too late..
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.............
If the 'Jewish State' is in Palestine, then you are forcing those Jews who have no place to go to go to Palestine. If you make the 'Jewish State' in Africa then Jews will go to Africa...
Why should we force arabs to leave the land of Palestine if there is no imperative that Jews dwell in that land. The fact is that Eretz Yisroel is the HOLY LAND for the Jewish people, and that is the ONLY LOGICAL reason that a 'Jewish State' or 'Zionist Entity' exists.
again, notice how i said SEMI-secular, meaning there will be some religion, enough so that people are aware of it, but will leave them the ultimate choice of weather to follow or not.
Liberal,
I assume you also support assisted suicide and abortion also... Because your moral ground has no basis in morality.. At least it is my opinion that you too believe that you are smart enough to know what is moral based on your own wisdom. Those who believe this usually realize when they grow older that they have erred.
Look at our wisest sage Solomon, he too erred because he thought he was smarter than Hashem... He realized it, but it was virtually too late..
i support assisted suicide in case of terminal illness or a chronic and painful one, this is so that the person in question does not have to suffer tremendous agony. i would definitely have that be a highly bureaucratic process so that the patient has a chance to think it through.
abortion should not be allowed in most cases. it should definitely be allowed if it endangers the mother's life, im split on weather it should be allowed in case of rape or teenage pregnancy, and i don't think we should allow abortion in any other case.
i think that when a government is legislating morality, it should only be for mediation between multiple individuals.
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Rodell Vereen is the schvartze man in South Carolina who was convicted twice of raping the same horse.
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Rodell Vereen is the schvartze man in South Carolina who was convicted twice of raping the same horse.
Yes, You made me laugh with that name.... Two times with the same horse!! I hope he at least bought it some flowers or a few cubes of sugar on the second date :::D
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One minor point: its not the love between men or the attraction. It's acting on it with sexual deeds which is the issue. That's the point I try to drive at. Religously the act is a no no. The other part might be nature. I acknowledge that changing that part takes an expert, Gd, and a very motivated person. I don't believe all will succeed and definitely in one shot. Bullying a homosexual instead of approaching them with kindness will not do any good. I would think the way to look at it us how some born again Christians pray for non Christians according to their theology to find Jesus Christ.
So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
KWBRT,
I dont think this subject if pursued will have a happy ending. I'm not saying that to silence anyone. Please dialogue. In light of the past few threads, I am thinking that more talk on this might not help bridge the divide. When most people use the term homophobic, they use it to imply that someone is anti-gay, which you, and many other forum members have countered by stating that there is no fear or hatred of the person, but rather there is strong disagreement with their sexual object choice. Biblically, it's a sin. Gays would argue that their innate desire to love someone of the same sex is not inherently sinful. They cite nature, others cite morality and there is an endless back and forth that usually goes nowhere. I have to agree with Dr. Dan's last post in it's entirety I think.
I think if some people can genuinely come out of homosexuality, then I wish them the best. I do not think that is a feasable option for most and so in my mind we are left with a scale. I also think those with a naturally low sex drive are at an absolute advantage here. It doesn't remove the need for companionship, but it does decrease the need for sex which often goes hand in hand with companionship.
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Kahanist liberal these will make great discussions. Perhaps bring up your points and disagreements on ask jtf.
Well I'm just curious as to how JTF violates his sensibilities. I would also like to know what part of JTF's platform he agrees with.
not sure about Daniel, but seeing as i am the other big lib on here:
i agree with the JTF platform on where to send the arabs
i agree that the jewish people have exlusive rights to the land of israel (everything between the nile an the euphrates)
and therefore should have exlusive voting rights
i agree that foreign aid is foreign AIDS
i disagree on JTF's position on the blacks
i slightly disagree on immigration, we should allow 3rd world immigration, as long as its legal
i disagree on the drug policy, we should legalize weed and decriminalize the other things.
we should allow more personal choices in general
i think israel should be semi-secular
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I think Israel should be a theocratic state. However no policing people in the privacy of their homes. This theocracy should be gradual. The people should be encouraged to be less secular rather than be forced down their throats.
Against assisted suicide. The pain one feels is their soul trying to stay alive. I am for relieving that pain with hospice care morphine etc. Assisting suicide is a huge sin and possibly in the afterlife something that will be looked at unkindly.
Abortion-the Jewish law should be achieved. In my personal opinion my point if view to allow it in rape cases for example would be wrong. I might think it is right in take cases but I also know that is unjewish.
.............
I
If the 'Jewish State' is in Palestine, then you are forcing those Jews who have no place to go to go to Palestine. If you make the 'Jewish State' in Africa then Jews will go to Africa...
Why should we force arabs to leave the land of Palestine if there is no imperative that Jews dwell in that land. The fact is that Eretz Yisroel is the HOLY LAND for the Jewish people, and that is the ONLY LOGICAL reason that a 'Jewish State' or 'Zionist Entity' exists.
again, notice how i said SEMI-secular, meaning there will be some religion, enough so that people are aware of it, but will leave them the ultimate choice of weather to follow or not.
Liberal,
I assume you also support assisted suicide and abortion also... Because your moral ground has no basis in morality.. At least it is my opinion that you too believe that you are smart enough to know what is moral based on your own wisdom. Those who believe this usually realize when they grow older that they have erred.
Look at our wisest sage Solomon, he too erred because he thought he was smarter than Hashem... He realized it, but it was virtually too late..
i support assisted suicide in case of terminal illness or a chronic and painful one, this is so that the person in question does not have to suffer tremendous agony. i would definitely have that be a highly bureaucratic process so that the patient has a chance to think it through.
abortion should not be allowed in most cases. it should definitely be allowed if it endangers the mother's life, im split on weather it should be allowed in case of rape or teenage pregnancy, and i don't think we should allow abortion in any other case.
i think that when a government is legislating morality, it should only be for mediation between multiple individuals.
-
So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
Homophobia includes a range of negative feelings and attitudes towards homosexuality. It includes both fear and discrimination. Any of you who say, "Oh, don't call me a homophobe cuz I'm not scared of them" is playing juvenile games with semantics. If you have any type of negative attitude towards homosexuality whether the emotions are fear, hatred, or your actions include violence or discrimination against homosexuals, then you are a homophobe.
How is homophobia like antisemetism? They are both forms of bigotry that seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.
Whether you view the feelings or the behavior in a negative way and attribute immoral traits to it, then you are still homophobic. However, the same way most of you distinguish between homosexual feelings and behaviors, I too am now seeing that you all are just stating words, but are not going out there comitting violent acts or discriminating against homosexuals. Nor are any of you creating any legislation discriminating against homosexuals. So although I don't agree with your attitudes and am not happy with them, I can tolerate your intolerance on this level.
Do I see homosexual acts as morally wrong? Personally, it's not my cup of tea and I would never engage in them. But for those who are homosexual, I think the worst thing they can possibly do is to try to deny their feelings, try to convert themselves, have a heterosexual marriage and produce offspring. That's only going to end up with the gay person realizing who they really are and will end up in a divorce. And for those of you who say that these people will just have to remain single and celebate for the remainder of their lives, fat chance trying to make that a reality!
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while i disagree with a lot of people on JTF on a lot of things, accusing people here of being nazis is uncalled for.
As I already stated, I never called or accused anyone here of being a nazi. I merely stated that homophobia is a Nazi-like mentality just like antisemetism and racism.
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So Daniel, do you believe that people who mistrust or dislike Muslims are "Islamophobes?"
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Daniel
Your point on the last paragraph is noted.
First, do you feel that when religious people and the Torah feel that the behavior is a sin, that is considered homophobic according to the definition you gave? Do you feel that when someone states that the behavior is a sin, but the love and attraction a homosexual man might have with another man is not necessarily sin, is still a homophobic statement according to you? Do you feel those who are against sanctioning homosexuality as appropriate behavior and gay pride marches are homophobic according to your definition? You might not agree with these things, but does that fall under your definition of homophobia?
As far as forcing a homosexual to be heterosexual, as you mentioned in the last paragraph, I agree with you. The best thing for a man who has an inclination to the same sex is to admit it to himself and to understand it. The obligation for other people who come into contact with this person should be love and compassion. Judaism sanctions this. However, by love and compassion, we also include discouraging inappropriate behavior that is involved with practicing homosexuals. Daniel, is that homophobic to you?
Ideally, it would be nice if homosexuals can come around and lead a heterosexual life, get married to a woman and have children, but that part is up to Gd, up to that person and up to the expert who is helping him.
So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
Homophobia includes a range of negative feelings and attitudes towards homosexuality. It includes both fear and discrimination. Any of you who say, "Oh, don't call me a homophobe cuz I'm not scared of them" is playing juvenile games with semantics. If you have any type of negative attitude towards homosexuality whether the emotions are fear, hatred, or your actions include violence or discrimination against homosexuals, then you are a homophobe.
How is homophobia like antisemetism? They are both forms of bigotry that seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.
Whether you view the feelings or the behavior in a negative way and attribute immoral traits to it, then you are still homophobic. However, the same way most of you distinguish between homosexual feelings and behaviors, I too am now seeing that you all are just stating words, but are not going out there comitting violent acts or discriminating against homosexuals. Nor are any of you creating any legislation discriminating against homosexuals. So although I don't agree with your attitudes and am not happy with them, I can tolerate your intolerance on this level.
Do I see homosexual acts as morally wrong? Personally, it's not my cup of tea and I would never engage in them. But for those who are homosexual, I think the worst thing they can possibly do is to try to deny their feelings, try to convert themselves, have a heterosexual marriage and produce offspring. That's only going to end up with the gay person realizing who they really are and will end up in a divorce. And for those of you who say that these people will just have to remain single and celebate for the remainder of their lives, fat chance trying to make that a reality!
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Homophobia includes a range of negative feelings and attitudes towards homosexuality. It includes both fear and discrimination. Any of you who say, "Oh, don't call me a homophobe cuz I'm not scared of them" is playing juvenile games with semantics. If you have any type of negative attitude towards homosexuality whether the emotions are fear, hatred, or your actions include violence or discrimination against homosexuals, then you are a homophobe.
How is homophobia like antisemetism? They are both forms of bigotry that seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.
Whether you view the feelings or the behavior in a negative way and attribute immoral traits to it, then you are still homophobic. However, the same way most of you distinguish between homosexual feelings and behaviors, I too am now seeing that you all are just stating words, but are not going out there comitting violent acts or discriminating against homosexuals. Nor are any of you creating any legislation discriminating against homosexuals. So although I don't agree with your attitudes and am not happy with them, I can tolerate your intolerance on this level.
I'm not sure why it's hard for you to understand religious Jews feel that God commanded homosexuality is an abomination. They are against it because God commanded them to be. You don't need any other reason because there is no greater reason than God commanding you to do something.
We are commanded by God to have negative feelings for homosexuality. You obviously feel homophobia is evil and akin to anti-Semitism and in turn you're suggesting God himself wants us to commit the evil act of homophobia. You're really stretching here. You're asking people to turn their backs to God's word and nobody is going to do that. You're allowed to believe whatever you want as they are. This is one of those agree to disagree moments and you need to walk away and stop calling people bigots or intolerent for believing the Bible.
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So Daniel, do you believe that people who mistrust or dislike Muslims are "Islamophobes?"
If someone paints an entire brushstroke across the entire people without even knowing them as individuals, then yes. But don't worry, I'm not even going to remotely consider debating anyone on this forum on this topic!
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So Daniel, do you believe that people who mistrust or dislike Muslims are "Islamophobes?"
If someone paints an entire brushstroke across the entire people without even knowing them as individuals, then yes. But don't worry, I'm not even going to remotely consider debating anyone on this forum on this topic!
If the majority of a certain group of people are known to have an evil culture, do you think, in your opinion it's ok to think to oneself guilty until proven innocent? Like if you are driving through a black neighborhood and you double check the doors are locked.
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Daniel, when you throw around words like HOMOPHOBIA, what you're doing is attempting to shut down any discussion whatsoever on the topic of homosexuality. Regardless of how rational or logical it may be, what you're doing is telling anyone who has objections to STFU.
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Daniel, when you throw around words like HOMOPHOBIA, what you're doing is attempting to shut down any discussion whatsoever on the topic of homosexuality. Regardless of how rational or logical it may be, what you're doing is telling anyone who has objections to STFU.
I disagree. That might be your interpretation. But that's not my intention. I'm just calling things as I see it. If I wan't people to STFU, I'd just tell them to STFU. As far as I'm concerned, when people say, "Well, it's wrong because G-d says it's wrong, period", that to me is a conversation stopper and I feel like that person is telling me to STFU.
If someone uses the term "shvartza" to describe a black person, I'm gonna state that that's racist. That's not me telling the person to STFU, just simply pointing out what that person is doing. It's up to that person if he wants to continue engaging in this type of racist rant, express himself differently, or to STFU.
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Daniel
Your point on the last paragraph is noted.
First, do you feel that when religious people and the Torah feel that the behavior is a sin, that is considered homophobic according to the definition you gave? Do you feel that when someone states that the behavior is a sin, but the love and attraction a homosexual man might have with another man is not necessarily sin, is still a homophobic statement according to you? Do you feel those who are against sanctioning homosexuality as appropriate behavior and gay pride marches are homophobic according to your definition? You might not agree with these things, but does that fall under your definition of homophobia?
On the issue of gay pride marches, I don't have much of an opinion on it. I have never marched in one. I don't have anything against them, I just don't see the point in them and don't think that these marches do anything to help their agenda and it only provides more ammo for the homophobes (yes, so sorry to keep using that term). I think that most gays themselves would look at the marches as something that they don't really identify with. I mean after all, what in the world does homosexuality have to do with wearing weird flashy costumes? Let's save that for Halloween lest we confuse people and cause them to confuse gays with vampires ;) We also don't have any straight pride parades. So my personal view is that I don't see much of a point in having a parade which focuses on any these of sexuality.
As far as forcing a homosexual to be heterosexual, as you mentioned in the last paragraph, I agree with you. The best thing for a man who has an inclination to the same sex is to admit it to himself and to understand it. The obligation for other people who come into contact with this person should be love and compassion. Judaism sanctions this. However, by love and compassion, we also include discouraging inappropriate behavior that is involved with practicing homosexuals. Daniel, is that homophobic to you?
I think it’s good that you distinguish between feelings and behavior as well as wanting to approach with love and compassion instead of hatred and scorn. Asking I believe we should discourage “inappropriate” behavior is sort of a loaded question since whether the behavior is appropriate or not is in itself argumentative. I personally believe in having the same standards of behavior for homosexuals as we do for heterosexuals. I don’t believe that two gays should be making out profusely in public. I don’t think that’s appropriate. However, I believe the same to be true for heterosexual couples.
Discouraging behavior of romantic behavior among the same gender, if that’s how these people naturally feel, yeah, that is a bit cruel. What is the alternative that you’re offering? To be single and celibate for the rest of their lives? But aside from whether or not it’s homophobic, it’s really sticking one’s nose into someone else’s business where it doesn’t belong. It’s like you telling me not to have anal sex with my female partner or not to spray whip cream on her or pull her hair or whip her, etc., my response is gonna be, “Okay, that’s your opinion, preferences, values, etc., but who asked you? Who are you to tell me what to do? Oh, so it’s not about you, but about G-d? All right, fine then. That’s your g-d, not mine. Just keep your g-d out of my bedroom!”
Ideally, it would be nice if homosexuals can come around and lead a heterosexual life, get married to a woman and have children, but that part is up to Gd, up to that person and up to the expert who is helping him.
Wishful thinking, my friend. It has never happened and never will happen. A person cannot will themselves to become straight if they are gay. Conversion programs have never worked nor will they ever work. Experts cannot change someone’s sexual orientation. Also, who are these “experts” who would be able to help anyway? All the professional mental health associations don’t view homosexuality as a mental disorder and don’t think that it should be treated as such. So for anyone who considers homosexuality to be a mental disease, there are no mental health professionals who would agree with you on that.
Also, why is it that with all the billions of dollars that the pharmaceutical companies spend coming up with treatments for every single disease and condition under the sun, the companies still have not been able to come up with a drug to combat homosexuality? Shouldn’t that tell us something about the true nature of sexual orientation?
So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
Homophobia includes a range of negative feelings and attitudes towards homosexuality. It includes both fear and discrimination. Any of you who say, "Oh, don't call me a homophobe cuz I'm not scared of them" is playing juvenile games with semantics. If you have any type of negative attitude towards homosexuality whether the emotions are fear, hatred, or your actions include violence or discrimination against homosexuals, then you are a homophobe.
How is homophobia like antisemetism? They are both forms of bigotry that seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.
Whether you view the feelings or the behavior in a negative way and attribute immoral traits to it, then you are still homophobic. However, the same way most of you distinguish between homosexual feelings and behaviors, I too am now seeing that you all are just stating words, but are not going out there comitting violent acts or discriminating against homosexuals. Nor are any of you creating any legislation discriminating against homosexuals. So although I don't agree with your attitudes and am not happy with them, I can tolerate your intolerance on this level.
Do I see homosexual acts as morally wrong? Personally, it's not my cup of tea and I would never engage in them. But for those who are homosexual, I think the worst thing they can possibly do is to try to deny their feelings, try to convert themselves, have a heterosexual marriage and produce offspring. That's only going to end up with the gay person realizing who they really are and will end up in a divorce. And for those of you who say that these people will just have to remain single and celebate for the remainder of their lives, fat chance trying to make that a reality!
[/quote]
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Daniel, in your own words:
If you have any type of negative attitude towards homosexuality whether the emotions are fear, hatred, or your actions include violence or discrimination against homosexuals, then you are a homophobe.
If you have any type of negative attitude towards homosexuality you are a homophobe. You're already shutting down discussion by stamping the homophobe label on your opposition.
There really isn't a conversation to have with people who feel homosexuality is against God's will. You're trying to convince them the Bible is wrong by telling them homosexuality is normal, etc. It's a non-starter. That's why I'm saying just agree to disagree and move on.
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Daniel, when you throw around words like HOMOPHOBIA, what you're doing is attempting to shut down any discussion whatsoever on the topic of homosexuality. Regardless of how rational or logical it may be, what you're doing is telling anyone who has objections to STFU.
Coon
Might I make a suggestion. Let's say Daniel felt that our religions promoted homophobia because it is written in the Bible man should not lie with another man and therefore according to HIS definition made us homophobic, big deal.. To him, we're homophobic. But to me, it's more important to follow Gd's rules than to be worried what another person will call us.
Just as a disclaimer, I don't know if this is really Daniel's opinion.
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I think it’s good that you distinguish between feelings and behavior as well as wanting to approach with love and compassion instead of hatred and scorn. Asking I believe we should discourage “inappropriate” behavior is sort of a loaded question since whether the behavior is appropriate or not is in itself argumentative. I personally believe in having the same standards of behavior for homosexuals as we do for heterosexuals. I don’t believe that two gays should be making out profusely in public. I don’t think that’s appropriate. However, I believe the same to be true for heterosexual couples.
Discouraging behavior of romantic behavior among the same gender, if that’s how these people naturally feel, yeah, that is a bit cruel. What is the alternative that you’re offering? To be single and celibate for the rest of their lives? But aside from whether or not it’s homophobic, it’s really sticking one’s nose into someone else’s business where it doesn’t belong. It’s like you telling me not to have anal sex with my female partner or not to spray whip cream on her or pull her hair or whip her, etc., my response is gonna be, “Okay, that’s your opinion, preferences, values, etc., but who asked you? Who are you to tell me what to do? Oh, so it’s not about you, but about G-d? All right, fine then. That’s your g-d, not mine. Just keep your g-d out of my bedroom!”
Ideally, it would be nice if homosexuals can come around and lead a heterosexual life, get married to a woman and have children, but that part is up to Gd, up to that person and up to the expert who is helping him.
Inappropriate behavior in this subject is homosexual sex...A man sleeping with another man. As far as public display, there is a level of appropriateness with both heterosexuals and homosexual in ideal situations. Public displays should be at a minimum.
It's not a matter of alternative as it is a matter of free will. I can rave and rant and rebuke that a man shouldn't have sex with another man with proof left and right that it is wrong, immoral, dangerous etc etc etc etc. I'm not a police man to go into someone's home and make sure they are doing it the right way. It isn't any of my business. What is our business is when these people are marching around and encouraging the behavior teaching it in schools as an acceptable alternative lifestyle. It's things like that which require intervention to speak out against.
So one homosexual man goes quietly lives a peaceful life in his home with his boyfriend, is not anyone's face. He knows it's wrong, but exercises free will to do what he feels is necessary (just like a single man might masturbate in the privacy of his own home). Both exercise free will. Maybe here on earth we will get away with these things..but on the here-after, it's another story. Daniel, you choose your faith. I believe that there is reward and punishment in the afterlife. Practicing homosexuals or the example which I gave of the quiet private type, well, it's the afterlife that they will deal with.
If you ask, how is it that we know there is an afterlife, Muman and KWRBT have the best answers.
Daniel, which faith do you choose? The Torah and Talmud are what they are. Tons of interpretations too within those texts by expert Rabbis who are a billion times wiser than you and me. As a Jew, like me, Muman, KWRBT and the rest who are Jewish here, these are the rules we are supposed to follow and honor. WE don't get to pick and choose and mislead people on what they can and can't do, like the reform and conservative movements. I mean, we as Jews have free will to drive or not drive on shabbat even if it is to shul or temple. The fact is, in Judaism, we aren't supposed to do that and the right thing to do is even if you or me were to drive on that day, we shouldn't mislead other Jews to think it's ok...and extend it to "rabbis" of reform and conservative temples, well, they too should acknowledge that those things are wrong (unless life and death situation). The problem with them is that they mislead other Jews to think that driving on shabbat, for example, is ok and that times change or whatever they want to say.
The same goes with homosexual sex. It is clear in plain Hebrew for whatever reason you want to think of, that man should not lie with another man. It doesn't ignore that there might be some men at that time who liked other men..that part isn't the sin. You as a Jew have to understand that while you might not like this rule even for the nicest homosexual man you know, that in our religion of Judaism, a man shouldn't do that. To say it's ok if they keep in private and to encourage it is a terrible hillul hashem. It's better to say, "No don't do that." and if it makes you feel better to also say, "But everyone has free will to choose right from wrong."
Gd, the Torah, the Talmud, the Rabbis bless their memories were all righteous and highly intelligent people (Gd, isn't a people). If you think they were homophobes for the restrictions set aside for homosexual sex,then I'm sorry, the whole world of righteous people are homophobes to you.
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So are we going to get a definition of homophobia and how daniel is using that term?
I have to wonder if Daniel includes the very idea that the behavior of homosexual acts are morally wrong, as being homophobic.
Homophobia includes a range of negative feelings and attitudes towards homosexuality. It includes both fear and discrimination.
I asked you to specify. What feelings and attitudes?
Any of you who say, "Oh, don't call me a homophobe cuz I'm not scared of them" is playing juvenile games with semantics.
I didn't say this, so stop wasting my time.
If you have any type of negative attitude towards homosexuality whether the emotions are fear, hatred, or your actions include violence or discrimination against homosexuals, then you are a homophobe.
So, be clear, please. If I think that homosexual relations are an abomination does that make me a homophobe? If I think that homosexual relations are immoral and wrong, does that make me a homophobe? If I don't like nancy-boys prancing around in women's clothing and simulating acts on each other in a "parade" does that make me a homophobe?
How is homophobia like antisemetism? They are both forms of bigotry that seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.
So historical accuracy is not relevant?
Whether you view the feelings or the behavior in a negative way and attribute immoral traits to it, then you are still homophobic.
Finally you stated it openly.
So according to you, God (if you believe He exists) is homophobic. Or since you say our ancestors wrote the Torah, then our ancestors are homophobic. They did not "mean well" like your reform guitar-playing friend lied to you. They were homophobes of the first degree. And so are we! Wow! And since you equate homophobia with antisemitism, that is why you accuse us of being nazis. Because distilled down to its foundation, your argument amounts to the following - Since you JTFer's think that homosexual relations are immoral based on your religion, you are all homophobes, and homophobes are nazis and fascists by definition. This is a refrain for a non-thinker to be sure. Sounds like the real absolutist here is you...
However, the same way most of you distinguish between homosexual feelings and behaviors, I too am now seeing that you all are just stating words, but are not going out there comitting violent acts or discriminating against homosexuals.
Oh wow, you did us quite the favor to acknowledge the truth. And here I thought that truth wasn't relevant to your accusations.
Nor are any of you creating any legislation discriminating against homosexuals. So although I don't agree with your attitudes and am not happy with them, I can tolerate your intolerance on this level.
Do I see homosexual acts as morally wrong? Personally, it's not my cup of tea and I would never engage in them. But for those who are homosexual, I think the worst thing they can possibly do is to try to deny their feelings, try to convert themselves,
You think that's the worst thing, but where did you get your opinion from? My opinion is different and so are those of others here. Why is your opinion the gospel? Because your guitar playing friend preaches it?
have a heterosexual marriage and produce offspring.
I never said they should. It depends on the person. Some people do succeed at leaving their same-sex-attraction behind, even if not everyone does. For the people who succeed and desire a loving relationship with a woman, why shouldn't they get married?
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So Daniel, do you believe that people who mistrust or dislike Muslims are "Islamophobes?"
If someone paints an entire brushstroke across the entire people without even knowing them as individuals, then yes. But don't worry, I'm not even going to remotely consider debating anyone on this forum on this topic!
Spoken like a true delusional liberal who never left his comfortable daled amot in pluralized western society. Go walk around Hevron and tell me how much those arab muslims want to play nice with you and then tell me you trust them and they should be trusted.
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Had the Muslims attacked the most Leftist boroughs of
NYC and Ra'mat Aviv in Israel, the Leftists would have
been the first to nuke the Muslims out of existence.
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Daniel, when you throw around words like HOMOPHOBIA, what you're doing is attempting to shut down any discussion whatsoever on the topic of homosexuality. Regardless of how rational or logical it may be, what you're doing is telling anyone who has objections to STFU.
Coon
Might I make a suggestion. Let's say Daniel felt that our religions promoted homophobia because it is written in the Bible man should not lie with another man and therefore according to HIS definition made us homophobic, big deal.. To him, we're homophobic. But to me, it's more important to follow Gd's rules than to be worried what another person will call us.
Just as a disclaimer, I don't know if this is really Daniel's opinion.
I'm just trying to impress upon him that religious Jews like yourself, Ashedina, muman, etc believe the Bible is the literal word of God. Since the Bible clearly tells us homosexuality(at least man-man homosexuality) is an abomination, and we believe the Bible is the word of God, Daniel is wasting his time trying to convince people to think otherwise. There's obviously no higher authority than God.
If he wants to argue Jews are being homophobic for believing the Bible then I suppose he can do that, though I see it as totally futile to try and argue with people about it.
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http://www.defendthefamily.com/pfrc/books/pinkswastika/html/the_pinkswastika_4th_edition_-_final.htm
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What is the alternative that you’re offering? To be single and celibate for the rest of their lives?
Yes. Also you mentioned BDSM. I think that's also a terrible sickness. I don't think God approves of people hurting one another for sexual excitement. That's not love.
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http://www.defendthefamily.com/pfrc/books/pinkswastika/html/the_pinkswastika_4th_edition_-_final.htm
The majority of nazis were heterosexual, having raped, murdered, and decimated occupied Europe along the way. This book exploits one facet of a two sided phenomenon. Most homosexuals were victims in nazi occupied Europe. However, a handful were involved in the formation of the early nazi party as Brown shirts, under Ersnt Rohm, YSV. That this fat pig is burning in Gehenom forever should make all of us sleep easier. There is no point in anyone denying that, but to say homosexuals were not oppressed in the Reich and didn't face persecution is a false idea. There are many books and articles that speak to this. That this book as been exploited by people who genuinely have a hatred of homosexual people comes as no surprise. One could argue that there is likely an increased rate of sexual perversion in people who are filled with hatred.
Incidently, I read this book when it first came on the market in the mid-1990s
What is missing from this thread is that some homosexuals, perhaps misguided, genuinely find love in a person of the same sx. I don't believe that this is a moral thing, but it's true. Loving feelings between two consenting adults is not nazism.
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What is missing from this thread is that some homosexuals, perhaps misguided, genuinely find love in a person of the same sx. I don't believe that this is a moral thing, but it's true. Loving feelings between two consenting adults is not nazism.
How is that not found in this thread? Was that not stated a thousand times already by daniel?
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I just want to clarify the very hateful and "absolutist" point Daniel has made here.
Whether you view the feelings or the behavior in a negative way and attribute immoral traits to it, then you are still homophobic.
Finally you stated it openly.
So according to you, G-d (if you believe He exists) is homophobic. Or since you say our ancestors wrote the Torah, then our ancestors are homophobic. They did not "mean well" like your reform guitar-playing friend lied to you. They were homophobes of the first degree. And so are we! Wow! And since you equate homophobia with antisemitism, that is why you accuse us of being nazis. Because distilled down to its foundation, your argument amounts to the following - Since you JTFer's think that homosexual relations are immoral based on your religion, you are all homophobes, and homophobes are nazis and fascists by definition. This is a refrain for a non-thinker to be sure. Sounds like the real absolutist here is you...
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What is missing from this thread is that some homosexuals, perhaps misguided, genuinely find love in a person of the same sx. I don't believe that this is a moral thing, but it's true. Loving feelings between two consenting adults is not nazism.
How is that not found in this thread? Was that not stated a thousand times already by daniel?
KWBRT,
You have totally lost me. And to tell you the truth, I think given the tenor of the way these discussions have been going, I'd prefer to remain lost
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So Daniel, do you believe that people who mistrust or dislike Muslims are "Islamophobes?"
This, like "homophobia", is a loaded word created by Bolshevik style propagandists as a way to solicit sympathy. Compared to "anti-Semitism", or "Judenhasser", which are both actually descriptive of the people who are against Jews or who hate Jews, "x-phobia/x-phobe" is a dishonest accusation to paint people who object to homosexuality on moral and Biblical grounds [those who paint Jews as "homophobic" because they obey the Halakcha is indeed a form of anti-Semitism.].
Personally:
Do I hate homosexuals?
No.
Simply, surely, and resolutely, I unapologetically love HaShem, Torah, Mitzvoth, Judaism, Moshe as the greatest Prophet, a belief in Reward and Punishment, being Shomer Shabbat and Shomer Kashrut, and the Jewish people. I imagine many, if not most, Jews [and righteous Gentiles] here feel the same or similar to me.
Do I hate people who attempt to pass off homosexuality as an equally acceptable lifestyle?
Yes, anyone who tries to legitimize desecrating the mitzvah is to be hated. A Jew [or Gentile] who desecrates his mitzvah often enough or without remorse will murder his own Jewish soul; a person who leads another Jew into desecrating the mitzvah, and the murder of another Jewish soul, is even worse and tougher to forgive.
Is the actual act of homosexuality repulsive to me?
As something HaShem describes as an abomination it is abominable [yes]. There is nothing attractive about it [whats left in the absence of all attractiveness is repulsive].
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Jtfe2
Another poster and I mentioned that a male attraction to another wasn't a sin. The behavior was.
You might have overlooked it.
What is missing from this thread is that some homosexuals, perhaps misguided, genuinely find love in a person of the same sx. I don't believe that this is a moral thing, but it's true. Loving feelings between two consenting adults is not nazism.
How is that not found in this thread? Was that not stated a thousand times already by daniel?
KWBRT,
You have totally lost me. And to tell you the truth, I think given the tenor of the way these discussions have been going, I'd prefer to remain lost
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Yes I saw it Dr. Dan
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Yes I saw it Dr. Dan
You know I'm here to defend truth and justice the Jewish way and when I'm wrong I will accept it. Wish more people here showed similar humility rather than go on the attack. I know others show it here show it with grace.
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Dr. Dan,
The last comment I made in this thread wasn't an attack on you. It was directed to someone else. I'm sorry if you felt attacked in anyway. If you felt I was somehow being unappreciative vis a vis your efforts on this difficult topic, then I'm really sorry
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Dr. Dan,
The last comment I made in this thread wasn't an attack on you. It was directed to someone else. I'm sorry if you felt attacked in anyway. If you felt I was somehow being unappreciative vis a vis your efforts on this difficult topic, then I'm really sorry
It's ok no offense taken.
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Dr. Dan,
The last comment I made in this thread wasn't an attack on you. It was directed to someone else. I'm sorry if you felt attacked in anyway. If you felt I was somehow being unappreciative vis a vis your efforts on this difficult topic, then I'm really sorry
It's ok no offense taken.
You should know that I personally do appreciate the comments you make in order to prevent the forum becoming a free-for-all
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Meh. Sort of. Except some people never learn. It doesn't hurt you when you punch someone else in the face. For some people here they will only learn that discomfort when they get punched in the face unfortunately.
Treat other people the way you want to be treated. That also goes for society.
Dr. Dan,
The last comment I made in this thread wasn't an attack on you. It was directed to someone else. I'm sorry if you felt attacked in anyway. If you felt I was somehow being unappreciative vis a vis your efforts on this difficult topic, then I'm really sorry
It's ok no offense taken.
You should know that I personally do appreciate the comments you make in order to prevent the forum becoming a free-for-all
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Dr. Dan,
I dont want to make things worse, but I wasn't 'punching' you or anyone else in the face. Sorry but I dont think people should be exalted for seeing their common humanity in others. Comparing consensual homosexual relations to the repeated rape of an animal is disturbing. It reflects a certain kind of mindset that I have no intention of being 'pleasant' to. A rare few on this forum exhibit behavior that makes most of my responses seem tame. If I give someone a hard time, it's usually for a good reason.
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Wasn't talking about regarding punching. I refer to certain members who think there is only one right answer for certain subjects when there might be more than one.
Dr. Dan,
I dont want to make things worse, but I wasn't 'punching' you or anyone else in the face. Sorry but I dont think people should be exalted for seeing their common humanity in others. Comparing consensual homosexual relations to the repeated rape of an animal is disturbing. It reflects a certain kind of mindset that I have no intention of being 'pleasant' to. A rare few on this forum exhibit behavior that makes most of my responses seem tame. If I give someone a hard time, it's usually for a good reason.
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You, Daniel, are a slimy and disgusting worm. You cause flamewars on our forum and then run away.
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You, Daniel, are a slimy and disgusting worm. You cause flamewars on our forum and then run away.
This is a only reason why he came here. Not so hard to figure out ).
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I suspect Daniel of being pro-homosexual or a homo himself...+ there's no need to elaborate on why homosexuality is wrong, it is clearly evident that ALL religions condemn it!
I do not however condone any violence, torture or imprisonment for such acts. it it a moral sin and G-d will deal with this at the right time.
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You, Daniel, are a slimy and disgusting worm. You cause flamewars on our forum and then run away.
At the risk of being pounced on, I don't think this is true. Daniel keeps on taking a beating from almost everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if he never comes back. JTF should be bringing people together to prevent the taking of anymore Israeli land for a 'peace' that the Arabs spit at. This constant talk about homosexuality is a waste of energy and distracting people from where they need to put their energies: into saving America and Israel. That's not to say that JTF should be anything other than what it is, but this kind of perseveration about what any one member thinks (this includes me) is a waste of energy. The action is in Israel and here in the States with regards to the coming Elections
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A little later, when I have more time, I'm gonna come completely clean about who I really am and what makes me tick. I'll reveal things about myself that I have not revealed yet and will reveal everything about what has motivated to be involved with JTF. I will do this later when I have more time.
Let me guess. You belong to Pedofront.
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You, Daniel, are a slimy and disgusting worm. You cause flamewars on our forum and then run away.
At the risk of being pounced on, I don't think this is true. Daniel keeps on taking a beating from almost everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if he never comes back. JTF should be bringing people together to prevent the taking of anymore Israeli land for a 'peace' that the Arabs spit at. This constant talk about homosexuality is a waste of energy and distracting people from where they need to put their energies: into saving America and Israel. That's not to say that JTF should be anything other than what it is, but this kind of perseveration about what any one member thinks (this includes me) is a waste of energy. The action is in Israel and here in the States with regards to the coming Elections
If Daniel would quite making a pariah out of the issue and creating threads [at least 3 in recent time] about homosexuality, and insinuating that Torah driven Judaism [the only valid kind of Judaism] has Nazi qualities I think the forum would quiet down on the issue. "Taking a beating"? One who insinuates Judaism is a Nazi religion on a Jewish forum, and insinuates that people who do not share their philo-homosexual viewpoint are Nazis [which translates to every Torah/Bible believer on this site], will be denounced vociferously [Daniel has said he did not call anyone a Nazi, "clarifying" the issue, but if he was not calling any JTFers Nazis for their convictions, just who here was he addressing!].
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You, Daniel, are a slimy and disgusting worm. You cause flamewars on our forum and then run away.
At the risk of being pounced on, I don't think this is true. Daniel keeps on taking a beating from almost everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if he never comes back. JTF should be bringing people together to prevent the taking of anymore Israeli land for a 'peace' that the Arabs spit at. This constant talk about homosexuality is a waste of energy and distracting people from where they need to put their energies: into saving America and Israel. That's not to say that JTF should be anything other than what it is, but this kind of perseveration about what any one member thinks (this includes me) is a waste of energy. The action is in Israel and here in the States with regards to the coming Elections
If Daniel would quite making a pariah out of the issue and creating threads [at least 3 in recent time] about homosexuality, and insinuating that Torah driven Judaism [the only valid kind of Judaism] has Nazi qualities I think the forum would quiet down on the issue. "Taking a beating"? One who insinuates Judaism is a Nazi religion on a Jewish forum, and insinuates that people who do not share their philo-homosexual viewpoint are Nazis [which translates to every Torah/Bible believer on this site], will be denounced vociferously [Daniel has said he did not call anyone a Nazi, "clarifying" the issue, but if he was not calling any JTFers Nazis for their convictions, just who here was he addressing!].
Ari,
I think if we go back to the quote he didnt call orthodox Judaism nazism. I would never defend that.
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If Daniel would quite making a pariah out of the issue and creating threads [at least 3 in recent time] about homosexuality, and insinuating that Torah driven Judaism [the only valid kind of Judaism] has Nazi qualities I think the forum would quiet down on the issue. "Taking a beating"? One who insinuates Judaism is a Nazi religion on a Jewish forum, and insinuates that people who do not share their philo-homosexual viewpoint are Nazis [which translates to every Torah/Bible believer on this site], will be denounced vociferously [Daniel has said he did not call anyone a Nazi, "clarifying" the issue, but if he was not calling any JTFers Nazis for their convictions, just who here was he addressing!].
:clap: :clap: :clap: