JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ari Ben-Canaan on December 22, 2010, 12:43:13 AM
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Is there halakcha on this? I don't want to rain on anyone's parade who I meet during the day, this is a very happy time of year for a lot of people [none of which I wish to make an enemy out of!]. Before being religious I did not care, now I just wonder what the halakcha is.
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I do not know of any Halacha concerning it, but I will research it...
Lately, this year, nobody has wished me a Merry Christmas because I obviously dress and act so Jewish. One of my doctors was nice enough to even wish me a Happy Chanukah {he was the ONLY person to wish me anything on the Holidays}.
I am not one to greet others with Holiday wishes so I do not judge others if they don't wish me. In one case the lady at the Oil Change place I go to was saying Merry Christmas to everyone in the room when their car was done... When my time came she wished me a Happy Holiday which I considered very considerate of her.
Generally I think it is OK to acknowledge that it is a special time for Christians. If they are not trying to impress or persuade a Jew to join in any religious observance then I think it is OK to act graciously and greet them.
Today was the Holiday Party at work... And last week they gave everyone the Holiday gift... I did not participate very much, ate only the fruits and salads, but it was nice...
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http://www.torahinmotion.org/articles_dvarim/bus_ethics/holidayGreetings.htm
CASE STUDIES IN BUSINESS ETHICS
Rabbi Jay Kelman CA
Holiday Greetings
The Gap Inc. (annual sales $14 Billion) has advised its employees to wish customers Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas representing the latest in a trend to "secularize" Christmas. How should Jewish employers, employees and neighbours deal with the holiday season?
The abhorrence of Judaism for idolatry is such that Jewish law prohibits even the mentioning the name of an idol. Monotheism is so central to world order that even non- Jews are proscribed from engaging in idolatrous practices. Thus Jewish law has codified a series of laws that forbid "strengthening the hands of idolaters". Restrictions are placed on commercial activities with those for whom there is reason to fear that said profits will be used for idolatrous practices. And while many authorities assume that for non-Jews Christianity is not to be deemed idolatrous, there is no doubt that a Jew must (as unfortunately so many have over the years) forfeit one's life rather than convert to Christianity.
Our abhorrence of idolatry is manifest only in terms of religious ideology and at times commercial practice. In the area of personal interaction, Jews are obligated to treat all of humanity - notwithstanding any practices that may be repugnant - with dignity, honesty and respect. Thus the Talmud praises Rav Yochanan ben Zachai - the Rabbinic leader who literally saved Judaism during the Roman conquest of Jerusalem - for his practice of eagerly greeting the s of his days. Furthermore Jewish law states that one must feed the hungry, visit the sick and bury the dead of such idolaters. All of humanity is created in the image of G-d and are thus worthy of being treated in a dignified matter regardless of ones' belief system. Furthermore we must avoid any practice that may cause friction with our fellow citizens. And this would include not "celebrating" the festivals with our non-Jewish neighbours. Rav Moshe Isserles in his glosses to the the Shulchan Aruch (standard code of Jewish law written in the 16th century by Rav Yosef Karo, a victim of the Spanish expulsion) rules that if non-Jews are celebrating even a religious festival, Jews must join in the celebrations lest tension be created. It seems obvious that participation in the office holiday party - which today has little if any religious flavour to say the least - is a must for the modern day employee. Similarly the Shulchan Aruch permits (encourages?) the sending of gifts to non Jewish acquaintances during their festival season. Such displays of friendship strengthen the social standing of the Jew vis a vis the non Jew something of great import when living in exile. We are even allowed to wish our non Jewish brethren well as they celebrate their religious festivals. Blessings such as may G-d bless you are specifically mentioned as appropriate, knowing full well that the non-jew interpretation of god certainly differs from ours.
However invoking Merry Christmas may be a different matter, one that is dependant on the meaning and usage of the word Christmas. Halacha permits invoking the names of festivals of other religions provided that the name of a foreign deity is not mentioned. Thus it would be permissible to say happy easter or happy new year. Assuming that Christ is the name of a deity then its mention would proscribed by Jewish law. However the term Christ actually derives from the Greek Christos, meaning anointed one or messiah. Thus strictly speaking it usage should be permitted and perhaps at times even encouraged, such as when interacting with observant Catholics if failure to do so would create conflict.
Of course it is most natural considering the historical interaction between Jews and Christians, that for many Jews saying such words are extremely difficult and painful. A neutral expression such as season's greetings or happy holidays, especially in our multi cultural society would thus be appropriate in most circumstances. Of course there is no reason why Christians should not greet their co-religionists using Merry Christmas.
While acknowledging Christmas vis a vis our neighbours is most appropriate such is not the case when dealing amongst ourselves. In a somewhat cryptic response Rav Moshe Feinstein rules that one should not make a simcha on a non Jewish festival unless it is an obligatory feast such as a brit milah or pidyon haben. May we merit the day "when the earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water covers the sea" (Isiah 11:9).
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I just say happy holidays.
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I obviously dress and act so Jewish.
What do you mean by this and what makes it obvious? Are you saying you dress and "act" more Jewish than other Jewish forum members? Also, I really don't understand what "acting Jewish" is. How in daily public life do Jews behave differently than Gentiles? The only time that I hear about "Jewish behavior" as distinct from Gentile is when the dead, rotting horse of old anti-Semitic stereotypes gets beaten.
I am not one to greet others with Holiday wishes
Why not--is there halacha against such? Do you even mean you don't say "Chag Sameach" to other Jews?
Generally I think it is OK to acknowledge that it is a special time for Christians.
"Generally"? When would it not be?
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I obviously dress and act so Jewish.
What do you mean by this and what makes it obvious? Are you saying you dress and "act" more Jewish than other Jewish forum members? Also, I really don't understand what "acting Jewish" is. How in daily public life do Jews behave differently than Gentiles? The only time that I hear about "Jewish behavior" as distinct from Gentile is when the dead, rotting horse of old anti-Semitic stereotypes gets beaten.
I am not one to greet others with Holiday wishes
Why not--is there halacha against such? Do you even mean you don't say "Chag Sameach" to other Jews?
Generally I think it is OK to acknowledge that it is a special time for Christians.
"Generally"? When would it not be?
I am a religious Jew... I wear a Kippah, I wear Tzit-Tzits, I have a beard and I have grown my side-curls long. These are very clear signs of Jewish observance...
This is what I mean that I dress and act Jewish. I keep kosher at work as best I can {and it is very difficult at times}... Because of these things which a religious Jew does I believe that people know to wish me Happy Holiday instead of saying Merry Christmas, which is fine with me.
Regarding saying Chag Samaech I always say it to everyone in my minyan on the Holidays, and also the greeting Good Shabbos and Shabbat Shalom I say on Shabbat... But I do not, during the Christmas season, initiate the greeting, usually I reply to their greeting...
Regarding the question about the Halacha, I believe I just posted a post by a Rabbi which discusses the Halachic reasoning. I believe my practice is within halacha...
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Muman, thanks for the info. It seems a good train of thought.
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DBF/Muman... as a Jew whose personal dress code includes wearing a kippah, sometimes people in the street do mistake me for the Christian Pope [or a Cardinal], but most of the time people recognize me as a Jew.
(http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/pope.jpg)
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http://www.torahinmotion.org/articles_dvarim/bus_ethics/holidayGreetings.htm
CASE STUDIES IN BUSINESS ETHICS
Rabbi Jay Kelman CA
Holiday Greetings
The Gap Inc. (annual sales $14 Billion) has advised its employees to wish customers Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas representing the latest in a trend to "secularize" Christmas. How should Jewish employers, employees and neighbours deal with the holiday season?
The abhorrence of Judaism for idolatry is such that Jewish law prohibits even the mentioning the name of an idol. Monotheism is so central to world order that even non- Jews are proscribed from engaging in idolatrous practices. Thus Jewish law has codified a series of laws that forbid "strengthening the hands of idolaters". Restrictions are placed on commercial activities with those for whom there is reason to fear that said profits will be used for idolatrous practices. And while many authorities assume that for non-Jews Christianity is not to be deemed idolatrous, there is no doubt that a Jew must (as unfortunately so many have over the years) forfeit one's life rather than convert to Christianity.
Our abhorrence of idolatry is manifest only in terms of religious ideology and at times commercial practice. In the area of personal interaction, Jews are obligated to treat all of humanity - notwithstanding any practices that may be repugnant - with dignity, honesty and respect. Thus the Talmud praises Rav Yochanan ben Zachai - the Rabbinic leader who literally saved Judaism during the Roman conquest of Jerusalem - for his practice of eagerly greeting the s of his days. Furthermore Jewish law states that one must feed the hungry, visit the sick and bury the dead of such idolaters. All of humanity is created in the image of G-d and are thus worthy of being treated in a dignified matter regardless of ones' belief system. Furthermore we must avoid any practice that may cause friction with our fellow citizens. And this would include not "celebrating" the festivals with our non-Jewish neighbours. Rav Moshe Isserles in his glosses to the the Shulchan Aruch (standard code of Jewish law written in the 16th century by Rav Yosef Karo, a victim of the Spanish expulsion) rules that if non-Jews are celebrating even a religious festival, Jews must join in the celebrations lest tension be created. It seems obvious that participation in the office holiday party - which today has little if any religious flavour to say the least - is a must for the modern day employee. Similarly the Shulchan Aruch permits (encourages?) the sending of gifts to non Jewish acquaintances during their festival season. Such displays of friendship strengthen the social standing of the Jew vis a vis the non Jew something of great import when living in exile. We are even allowed to wish our non Jewish brethren well as they celebrate their religious festivals. Blessings such as may G-d bless you are specifically mentioned as appropriate, knowing full well that the non-jew interpretation of G-d certainly differs from ours.
However invoking Merry Christmas may be a different matter, one that is dependant on the meaning and usage of the word Christmas. Halacha permits invoking the names of festivals of other religions provided that the name of a foreign deity is not mentioned. Thus it would be permissible to say happy easter or happy new year. Assuming that Christ is the name of a deity then its mention would proscribed by Jewish law. However the term Christ actually derives from the Greek Christos, meaning anointed one or messiah. Thus strictly speaking it usage should be permitted and perhaps at times even encouraged, such as when interacting with observant Catholics if failure to do so would create conflict.
Of course it is most natural considering the historical interaction between Jews and Christians, that for many Jews saying such words are extremely difficult and painful. A neutral expression such as season's greetings or happy holidays, especially in our multi cultural society would thus be appropriate in most circumstances. Of course there is no reason why Christians should not greet their co-religionists using Merry Christmas.
While acknowledging Christmas vis a vis our neighbours is most appropriate such is not the case when dealing amongst ourselves. In a somewhat cryptic response Rav Moshe Feinstein rules that one should not make a simcha on a non Jewish festival unless it is an obligatory feast such as a brit milah or pidyon haben. May we merit the day "when the earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water covers the sea" (Isiah 11:9).
Rabbi Kelman is a funny man.... I guess this article is intended for Jewish readers only... It seems that the Rabbi feels anything other then what he is selling is nothing more then idol worship.
The abhorrence of Judaism for idolatry is such that Jewish law prohibits even the mentioning the name of an idol. Monotheism is so central to world order that even non- Jews are proscribed from engaging in idolatrous practices. Thus Jewish law has codified a series of laws that forbid "strengthening the hands of idolaters". Restrictions are placed on commercial activities with those for whom there is reason to fear that said profits will be used for idolatrous practices. And while many authorities assume that for non-Jews Christianity is not to be deemed idolatrous, there is no doubt that a Jew must (as unfortunately so many have over the years) forfeit one's life rather than convert to Christianity.
Like most of this clip and post boilerplate text it over complicates the situation... In the New York I grew up in we did not have this problem... A simple Happy Holidays or a "Have a Happy" was and is still is enough of a holiday greeting...For me what people choose to worship is none of my business... A simple holiday greeting as I described is nothing more then common courtesy... In most cases I allow the people I come in contact with to initiate most holiday greetings...
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Muman, thanks for the info. It seems a good train of thought.
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DBF/Muman... as a Jew whose personal dress code includes wearing a kippah, sometimes people in the street do mistake me for the Christian Pope [or a Cardinal], but most of the time people recognize me as a Jew.
(http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/pope.jpg)
Thank G-d I grew up in good old New York City... Most of us here can tell a Cardinal from a Jew wearing a kippah a half block away :::D And if the Pope is walking around the streets of New York among the general public that opens an entire new can of worms ;D...
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I wish everyone happy kwanzaa
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I simply answer "Thank you" !
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I wish everyone happy kwanzaa
Now this is an outrage... >:( I hope this is not an attempt to lure me into the black experience.... :::D Just kidding Dr.Dan... Happy kwanzaa to you too. :laugh:
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I wish everyone happy kwanzaa
:::D
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Sometimes when I was a cashier I used to tell Muslims Merry Christmas on purpose. They probably thought I was just being dense, but I got a kick out of it.
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Sometimes when I was a cashier I used to tell Muslims Merry Christmas on purpose. They probably thought I was just being dense, but I got a kick out of it.
:::D
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The more serious question is when it is a Jew who has intermarried and no longer practices the faith. That is what I ran into last night.
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Sometimes when I was a cashier I used to tell Muslims Merry Christmas on purpose. They probably thought I was just being dense, but I got a kick out of it.
Great, making fun of them is healthy !
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Happy ramadan.
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Thank you, but I don't celebrate Christmas. Let me wish you the best on your holiday.
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Muslamics are not supposed to be appalled by the mention or greeting of Christ or Christmas.
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I lived in a small town for awhile where there was a very small Jewish community. I worked with a bunch of women most of whom were very religious Christians. They were not sure whether to invite me to their Christmas Party. Finally they asked if I would be able to go. I said sure, but I would not take part in any religious activity if there was any (there was none). They also asked why Jews did not believe in Jesus. I tried to explain that Jews have a long history of false Messiahs and that most Jews viewed Jesus as just anothe one.
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I say Merry Christmas back, I wish my gentile friends a Merry Christmas, I hope their holiday is a happy one, you can say that, it doesn't convert you to Christianity to utter the words. For example, if on your birthday I wished you a Happy Birthday, it doesn't mean I am celebrating my birthday.
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I happen to agree with cjd in that the article in question barely touches upon the actual issue in question. He brings a lot of (barely) tangentially related information, but the simple question is, what does the halacha say about that particular greeting? Even when he cites Rabbi Feinstein, it's a halacha which has nothing to do with the question!
In any case, I think it's preferred not to say "christmas" (and rather to say happy holidays instead) but at the same time there are exceptional circumstances depending on the situation - you should ask your rav. I once asked a shaila about this but it was slightly different circumstances, so I don't want to apply the psak generally here.
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The more serious question is when it is a Jew who has intermarried and no longer practices the faith. That is what I ran into last night.
lol, in that case, not only do you say happy hanuka in response but you give them a lecture too!
Not saying that's the halacha, but I would do that. I would say "what do you mean merry christmas, you're Jewish!"
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I happen to agree with cjd in that the article in question barely touches upon the actual issue in question. He brings a lot of (barely) tangentially related information, but the simple question is, what does the halacha say about that particular greeting? Even when he cites Rabbi Feinstein, it's a halacha which has nothing to do with the question!
In any case, I think it's preferred not to say "christmas" (and rather to say happy holidays instead) but at the same time there are exceptional circumstances depending on the situation - you should ask your rav. I once asked a shaila about this but it was slightly different circumstances, so I don't want to apply the psak generally here.
What the Rabbi in the article I posted said makes complete sense to me. The halacha appears to be the same as for Thanksgiving {which is the case I believe that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was answering}.... Jews in the diaspora should return this Holiday greeting in order to maintain peace between the Jews and the gentiles. That is what I understand the Halacha is..
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Here is another article which discusses the topic of gift giving:
{of course spell Parasha p*a*r*s*h*a}
http://www.cckollel.org/html/Parasha/bereishis/vayishlach5764.html
Halacha Encounters
It's That Time of Year
Some Halachos pertaining to interacting with non-Jews on their Holidays
Rabbi Moshe Rosenstein
Yaakov Avinu tells Eisav in this week's Parasha, “ Im Lavan garti , I have been living with Lavan.” Chazal tell us what he was really saying was, “ …viTaryag Mitzvos shamarti , [and even so,] I kept all 613 mitzvos.” We too spend our lives living in a society and culture that is alien to the ideals and morals that Torah represents and we too try out hardest to be able to say vitaryag mitzvos shamarti . At no time of year is it more apparent that we are living in a community that is not strictly our own as it is this time of year, the “Holiday Season.” One cannot do anything from shopping to going to work without the “themes” of the season being apparent from all sides. As it has become the custom in their culture to give each other gifts at this time of year, many of us find ourselves in the situation that we too need to be involved in the exchanging of gifts with our non-Jewish employers, employees or associates. In this week's Halacha Encounters we will examine some of the halachos related to the giving of gifts to Gentiles, particularly during this time of year.
Giving “Holiday” Gifts
In olden times when the Gentiles were assumed to be actual idol worshippers, it was forbidden to give a gift to them on their holidays (or three days prior as well). The reason for this prohibition was that they would, as a result, thank their gods. Since Gentiles are bound by the Seven Mitzvos B'nei Noach, including the prohibition to recognize or serve other gods, the Jewish gift-giver would have thereofre violated the prohibition of lifnei ivier lo sitein michshol , not placing a stubling block infront of another person. The poskim point out that nowadays this problem is less prevelant and it is therefore permissible to give gifts, although it is preferable to give the gift somewhat before the actual day of the religious observance. 1 If, however, one was not able to give the gift earlier, it is better to give it on the actual day than to give it later, as this may be insulting to the recipient and cause animosity. 2 If one includes a card, one should not mention the actual name of the holiday on the card 3 but should rather write “season's greetings” or the like. 4
Giving a Gift of Non-Kosher Food
There is a general prohibition against doing business with food that is not kosher. 5 According to many poskim , this prohibition is Biblically prohibited. 6 In general, this prohibition includes raising, buying and selling or most other forms of profiting from dealings with non-kosher food products. 7 The poskim also address giving non-kosher foodstuffs as gifts. The Beis Yosef rules that one may not give non-kosher products as gifts either. Since the purpose of a gift is really to strengthen one's relationship with the recipient (especially when it comes to a business associate), this is akin to a business deal and is therefore included in the prohibition. 8
Some poskim mention that if one is giving the gift strictly out of fear of repercussions, then it is permissible as this can not be considered a “business deal.” 9 However, under other, normal circumstances, it would not be permissible to give a non-kosher gift (for example, a gift basket with treif food in it or the like) to clients, secretaries, co-workers or other business associates.
Exceptions to the Rule
There are however, several criteria and exceptions to the prohibition of doing business with non-kosher food products.
1 – Issurei diRabonnon. The prohibition applies only to food items that are prohibited from the Torah. 10 Any food that is only Rabbinically prohibited is permissible. Therefore items commonly found in gift baskets (or the like) may not be subject to this prohibition at all. Items like wine, liquor or chocolate may very well only be prohibited midiRabonnon . Certainly, however, most meat or cheese products as well as caviar from non-kosher fish are, in fact, assur min haTorah and would therefore be subject to the prohibition. If one is purchasing a gift basket that contains many items, one must be sure to ascertain that there are no issurei Torah contained in it.
2 – If the Jew received the basket as a gift. The prohibition of doing business with non-kosher food only applies if one set out initially to deal with the treif food; if one went out to buy the food with the intention of reselling it or giving it as a gift. 11 Food that one receives “by chance” is not subject to the prohibition and one may therefore sell it or give it away. There are several common scenarios where this dispensation will apply. If one receives a free sample in the mail of non-kosher food or a voucher for a meal in a restaurant, one would be permitted to give it away to a non-Jewish neighbor or housekeeper. Likewise, if one received a gift basket or the like that contains non-kosher food in it, one would be permitted to give that basket (or any of the non-kosher food contained in it) to a non-Jewish neighbor, associate, worker or housekeeper. 12
3 – If the gift is going to an employee. Some poskim permit the giving of non-kosher food to employees. They contend that this is not called “doing business” with the food but rather “using” the food. 13 This leniency is the subject of a dispute amongst the poskim and it is therefore questionable if one should rely on it limaaseh . 14
4 – If the gift is coming from a group. If a group of non-Jewish employees are pooling their funds together to purchase a gift for their employer, it may be permissible for a Jew to contribute as well. 15 This too is questionable and one should be sure to clarify the Halacha before agreeing to participate.
These are the basic guidelines concerning how and when it is permissible to give a gift to Gentile associates. As always, one should consult their Rav for a final Halachic ruling on these matters. BE”H we should be zocheh to make a Kiddush Sheim Shamayim and be able to say next year “ B'America garti v'Taryag Mitzvos shamarti. ”
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1 Rema Y.D. 158:12
2 Shach 158:13
3 See Y.D. 147:2 and Gra 3
4 Rav Shmuel Fuerst, shlit”a and contemporary poskim
5 Y.D. 117:1 in the name of the Rishonim
6 See Taz 1
7 See 117:1 and commentaries
8 Y.D. 186b quoting Hagahos Maymonios Ma'achalos Asuros 8:8.
9 Pri Toar Y.D. 117:3
10 117:1
11 ibid.
12 See Chidushei R' Akiva Eiger Y.D. 117 s.v. v'im nizdamein .
13 See Shach 117:3
14 Especially given that the machlokes is in reference to employees that one has a responsibility to feed. It is questionable as to whether or not one can apply this to our case as well where there is no actual responsibility on the part of the employer to give a gift to the employee.
15 See Aruch HaShulchan 117:23; Darchei Teshuva 39; Sha'arim Hamitzuyanim b'Halacha siman 64
Rabbi Rosenstein learns full time in the Kollel and is a frequent contributor to Halacha Encounters.
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Yet more lengthy cut-and-pastes. Once again this isn't a bad thing, but how about some more of your own thought, meaning besides short, ambiguous statements ("generally I wish Christians well on their holiday") or pronouncements about your level of observance that are not empirically verifiable on the internet ("I obviously look and act highly Jewish")?
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This site has some of the relevant Halacha concerning gentiles...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912369/jewish/Chapter-Ten.htm
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Yet more lengthy cut-and-pastes. Once again this isn't a bad thing, but how about some more of your own thought, meaning besides short, ambiguous statements ("generally I wish Christians well on their holiday") or pronouncements about your level of observance that are not empirically verifiable on the internet ("I obviously look and act highly Jewish")?
hey dbf, happy kwanzaa... :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Yet more lengthy cut-and-pastes. Once again this isn't a bad thing, but how about some more of your own thought, meaning besides short, ambiguous statements ("generally I wish Christians well on their holiday") or pronouncements about your level of observance that are not empirically verifiable on the internet ("I obviously look and act highly Jewish")?
DBF,
I have posted my own thought. The question is concerning the Halacha of whether we should reply with a Holiday greeting to non-Jews.
What I have found on the topic I have posted here. It shows that the Halacha is that a Jew is permitted to say Happy Holidays to a non-Jew in order to keep peace. To me it seems very simple.
BTW... Happy Holidays DBF!
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hey dbf, happy kwanzaa...
:::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
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I happen to agree with cjd in that the article in question barely touches upon the actual issue in question. He brings a lot of (barely) tangentially related information, but the simple question is, what does the halacha say about that particular greeting? Even when he cites Rabbi Feinstein, it's a halacha which has nothing to do with the question!
In any case, I think it's preferred not to say "christmas" (and rather to say happy holidays instead) but at the same time there are exceptional circumstances depending on the situation - you should ask your rav. I once asked a shaila about this but it was slightly different circumstances, so I don't want to apply the psak generally here.
What the Rabbi in the article I posted said makes complete sense to me. The halacha appears to be the same as for Thanksgiving {which is the case I believe that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was answering}.... Jews in the diaspora should return this Holiday greeting in order to maintain peace between the Jews and the gentiles. That is what I understand the Halacha is..
Not even close, Muman. I am familiar with Rabbi Feinstein's position about celebrating on gentile holidays (on those which lack religious content). But that has nothing to do with the question of exchanging a certain greeting! It's not the same case and not the same halacha. It's an example he brought which doesn't address the issue, simple as that.
And no one here is asking if a Jew should celebrate christmas, because they definitely should NOT and that is where the citation of Rabbi Feinstein would be relevant! Other citations he brought would seem to contradict that, but keep in mind the time and place they were living and what the real repercussions were of 'not participating' at that time which are not the case in our day.
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I happen to agree with cjd in that the article in question barely touches upon the actual issue in question. He brings a lot of (barely) tangentially related information, but the simple question is, what does the halacha say about that particular greeting? Even when he cites Rabbi Feinstein, it's a halacha which has nothing to do with the question!
In any case, I think it's preferred not to say "christmas" (and rather to say happy holidays instead) but at the same time there are exceptional circumstances depending on the situation - you should ask your rav. I once asked a shaila about this but it was slightly different circumstances, so I don't want to apply the psak generally here.
What the Rabbi in the article I posted said makes complete sense to me. The halacha appears to be the same as for Thanksgiving {which is the case I believe that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was answering}.... Jews in the diaspora should return this Holiday greeting in order to maintain peace between the Jews and the gentiles. That is what I understand the Halacha is..
Not even close, Muman. I am familiar with Rabbi Feinstein's position about celebrating on gentile holidays (on those which lack religious content). But that has nothing to do with the question of exchanging a certain greeting! It's not the same case and not the same halacha. It's an example he brought which doesn't address the issue, simple as that.
And no one here is asking if a Jew should celebrate christmas, because they definitely should NOT and that is where the citation of Rabbi Feinstein would be relevant!
So what are you saying?
I don't know what is so hard about the question, or the answer which was given according to Rabbi Kelman {whose article I posted in this thread}.
Basically the issues seem to be:
1) A Jew is not permitted to engage in any aspect of the observance of a non-Jewish holiday.
2) In cases where the Jew feels that peace will be kept if engaging in some of these non-religious aspects {such a greetings} it is best for the Jew to engage in them {such as a Holiday party, giving gifts, and greetings}..
As I have read several opinions on the subject I realize that my own personal opinion on the subject happens to be according to the Halacha.
Furthermore we must avoid any practice that may cause friction with our fellow citizens. And this would include not "celebrating" the festivals with our non-Jewish neighbours. Rav Moshe Isserles in his glosses to the the Shulchan Aruch (standard code of Jewish law written in the 16th century by Rav Yosef Karo, a victim of the Spanish expulsion) rules that if non-Jews are celebrating even a religious festival, Jews must join in the celebrations lest tension be created. It seems obvious that participation in the office holiday party - which today has little if any religious flavour to say the least - is a must for the modern day employee. Similarly the Shulchan Aruch permits (encourages?) the sending of gifts to non Jewish acquaintances during their festival season
BTW: A good discussion of the topic of Thanksgiving is @ http://www.tfdixie.com/special/thanksg.htm
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Maybe you are thinking of Halacha #5 from Rambams Mishne Torah chapter 10.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912369/jewish/Chapter-Ten.htm
Halacha 5
We should provide for poor idolaters together with poor Jews for the sake of peace. One should not rebuke idolaters [from taking] leket, shich'chah, and pe'ah, for the sake of peace. One may inquire about their well-being - even on their festivals - for the sake of peace.
One may never repeat good wishes to them. Also, one should not enter the house of a gentile on one of his festivals to wish him well. If one encounters him in the marketplace, one may greet him meekly with a serious countenance.
Commentary Halacha 5
We should provide for poor idolaters - even idolaters
together with poor Jews - Some authorities place emphasis on the word "together," explaining that it is permitted to give to idolaters only when they come together with the Jewish poor. If they come by themselves, however, one is not allowed to give them. The later authorities (see Turei Zahav, Yoreh De'ah 151:9; Siftei Cohen 151:19) do not accept this conclusion, and allow giving them gifts even when they come
for the sake of peace. - Tosafot (Gittin 61a) explains that since giving these donations establishes peace, granting them is not forbidden by the prohibition against giving gifts to gentiles mentioned in the previous halachah.
One should not rebuke idolaters [from taking] - from the produce which the Torah has allotted for the poor. Among the gifts that must be left for them to collect are:
leket - the stalks of grain which fall during the harvest. (See Leviticus 23:22; Hilchot Matnot Ani'im, Chapter 4.)
shich'chah - a sheaf which is forgotten in the field. (See Deuteronomy 24:19, Hilchot Matnot Ani'im, Chapter 5.)
and pe'ah - the ends of the field which the owner is forbidden to reap. (See Leviticus, ibid.; Hilchot Matnot Ani'im, Chapters 2 and 3.)
for the sake of peace. - According to Torah law, gentiles are not entitled to benefit from these gifts. Nevertheless, the Rabbis granted them permission to do so to prevent strife from arising between the Jews and their gentile neighbors.
One may inquire about their well-being - even on their festivals - when doing so might lead them to give thanks to their false deity
for the sake of peace. - The Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 151:12, states that we may also visit their sick, bury their dead, and comfort their mourners.
One may never - even on a day other than one of their holidays (Gittin 62a)
repeat good wishes to them - since wishing them well once is sufficient to prevent ill-feelings from being established (Rashi, Gittin, ibid.).
Also, one should not enter the house of a gentile on one of his festivals to wish him well. - We have translated this phrase loosely, without dealing with the issue of whether the word shalom is included in the blessing as well. There are, however, authorities who maintain that this is the essential question at hand. Shalom is one of the names of G-d and should not be mentioned in a gentile's house on a day when he is involved in the worship of a false deity. According to this opinion, it is permitted to extend good wishes to a gentile, so long as this term is not used (Siftei Cohen, Yoreh De'ah 148:7).
The Siftei Cohen, ibid. and 148:12, states that even according to the opinions (see the introduction to Chapter 9) that state that many of these laws do not apply in the present age, this law must be observed.
If one encounters him in the marketplace, one may greet him - so that no ill-feelings are aroused, but should convey that greeting
meekly with a serious countenance - so that the gentile will not be so happy that he desires to give thanks to his false deity.
PS: It seems that the basis of the recent Rabbis ruling concerning selling Jewish land to non-Jews is derived from the Halachas of Chapter 10 of Avodah Kochavim... (See Halacha #3}
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I return the greeting if it's someone i don't know and then say i'm Jewish Happy Chanuka they always return the greeting
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I happen to agree with cjd in that the article in question barely touches upon the actual issue in question. He brings a lot of (barely) tangentially related information, but the simple question is, what does the halacha say about that particular greeting? Even when he cites Rabbi Feinstein, it's a halacha which has nothing to do with the question!
In any case, I think it's preferred not to say "christmas" (and rather to say happy holidays instead) but at the same time there are exceptional circumstances depending on the situation - you should ask your rav. I once asked a shaila about this but it was slightly different circumstances, so I don't want to apply the psak generally here.
What the Rabbi in the article I posted said makes complete sense to me. The halacha appears to be the same as for Thanksgiving {which is the case I believe that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was answering}.... Jews in the diaspora should return this Holiday greeting in order to maintain peace between the Jews and the gentiles. That is what I understand the Halacha is..
Not even close, Muman. I am familiar with Rabbi Feinstein's position about celebrating on gentile holidays (on those which lack religious content). But that has nothing to do with the question of exchanging a certain greeting! It's not the same case and not the same halacha. It's an example he brought which doesn't address the issue, simple as that.
And no one here is asking if a Jew should celebrate christmas, because they definitely should NOT and that is where the citation of Rabbi Feinstein would be relevant!
So what are you saying?
Read my posts and you'll see what I'm saying.
I don't know what is so hard about the question, or the answer which was given according to Rabbi Kelman {whose article I posted in this thread}.
What's hard about it is that he addressed a different question, not the one posed in this thread.
Question in this thread - How should a Jew reply to a merry christmas greeting.
Question discussed in that article - Are Jews allowed to celebrate non-Jewish holidays (and what about if they are religious or non-religious holidays).
Different questions. Exchanging a greeting with someone who initiates it to you randomly is not the same thing as a celebration of the holiday! (Celebrating a holiday means instituting a meal, a family get-together, exchanging gifts etc) Yet the question remains, is an exchange of greetings permitted since it invokes their holiday?
I've asked a shaila about this but there were extenuating circumstances involved, so I won't generalize the psak in the forum here. I advise people to ask their rabbi's what is appropriate to do in that circumstance.
And if people prefer not to ask, but they are personally uncomfortable with saying merry christmas under any circumstances (even if it would be permitted for some reason), then I think Boyana's response makes a lot of sense - Thanks, but I don't celebrate, have a happy holiday (or whatever). Getting into discussions about having thanksgiving meals is really not at all relevant, no offense muman.
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Of course the best action concerning questions of Halacha is to ask a respected Rabbi the question... I never suggest that my opinions, or those of Rabbis I find on the Internet, should take the place of asking your own Rabbi...
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I notice I only get it from old ignorant men and women. The are too blind to see my kippah I guess LOL
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If someone is visibly Jewish, such as wearing a kippah, I wouldn't say anything like that to them, but I hope someone would forgive me if I made an honest mistake.
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hey dbf, happy kwanzaa...
:::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
(http://www.ghanaweb.biz/GHP/img/pics//89590079.jpg)
Nothin' mo betta!
Steal a Menorah and load it up with Christmas colored candles right around the Hanukah/Christmas time period... very clever. :::D
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Don't forget your sub-saharan attire.
(Does she have a talit draped over her arm?)
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hey dbf, happy kwanzaa...
:::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
Time for Wolf's annual Kwanzaa Karols...
Twas the night befo Kwanzaa and all through the hoods. Ruffus had a crowbar and a bag full of stolen goods. The food stamps were hung by the fire escapes with care, with the sounds of police sirens filled the air.
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If someone is visibly Jewish, such as wearing a kippah, I wouldn't say anything like that to them, but I hope someone would forgive me if I made an honest mistake.
Thats funny i occasionally peruse StørmFrønt and i love their disappointment when they find out someone is Jewish or has a Jewish parent.For example the guy who played Stonewall Jackson in the movie G-ds and Generals and the military leader in Avatar has a Jewish Father and Irish Mother [ Stephen Lang] caused some to be pretty upset when they Found out he had a Jewish Father.This happens all the time when they find out someone they liked is fully Jewish or has a Jewish Parent :::D :::D
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Those people are extremely obssessed. I don't think you should even try to figure them out. Just avoid them or fight them.
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Those people are extremely obssessed. I don't think you should even try to figure them out. Just avoid them or fight them.
:laugh: :laugh:
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Those people are extremely obssessed. I don't think you should even try to figure them out. Just avoid them or fight them.
:laugh: :laugh:
I'm glad I don't understand their BS.
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The abominable President of the State of Israel wishes the world "a profound Merry Christmas"!
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/peres-wishes-christian-world-profound-christmas-greetings-1.332506
(http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.332507.1293123651!/image/3931744166.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_295/3931744166.jpg)
The Machiavellian eternally scheming Shimon Peres (nee Persky) was raised in a Jesuit school, & it is claimed that he is an agent of the Vatican and European Faction of the NWO (Bibi being an agent of the American Faction of the NWO!).
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hey dbf, happy kwanzaa...
:::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
Time for Wolf's annual Kwanzaa Karols...
Twas the night befo Kwanzaa and all through the hoods. Ruffus had a crowbar and a bag full of stolen goods. The food stamps were hung by the fire escapes with care, with the sounds of police sirens filled the air.
Hahaha, very good!
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Honestly, I respect Kwanza as any other celebration which honours an ethnicity and one's heritage.
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Honestly, I respect Kwanza as any other celebration which honours an ethnicity and one's heritage.
So you celebrate copycat fraud holidays. You realize Kwanzaa was created by a jealous black person who took some stuff from hanukah and some stuff from Christmas. You realize they light a Kenorah....a KENORAH!!! I mean how original is that fraud of a holiday?!
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I know what I say:
Roses are red,
Violets are Bluish,
If it wasn't for Christmas,
We'd all be Jewish.
:laugh:
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(http://admatch-syndication.mochila.com/pimg/APInc/APNewsFeatures/2010/12/02/Obama_Hanukkah-07748_a4da49a590.largeslideshow.jpg)
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(http://admatch-syndication.mochila.com/pimg/APInc/APNewsFeatures/2010/12/02/Obama_Hanukkah-07748_a4da49a590.largeslideshow.jpg)
Better yet: You should have asked for a caption of this pic: Child carries on thousands of years of tradition. Mr. Obama wonders how he can charge this nice Jewish boy with "spying" for Israel. Mrs. Obama is amazed at fire.
As for the answer to the OP's ?: I just answer Happy Kwaanza! ....Because let's face it, these shvugs are taking over the world as it is!
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Is the kid lighting that menora a US govt mole poised to be future Israeli Prime Minister?
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Honestly, I respect Kwanza as any other celebration which honours an ethnicity and one's heritage.
So you celebrate copycat fraud holidays. You realize Kwanzaa was created by a jealous black person who took some stuff from hanukah and some stuff from Christmas. You realize they light a Kenorah....a KENORAH!!! I mean how original is that fraud of a holiday?!
I don't celebrate it. I am not African. If anything I'd celebrate European Holidays. But I respect those Africans who celebrate.
Regarding the "Kinara" (It's not Kenorah), it's a Swahili word which means candleholder, the similarity with the word Menorah is because Swahilli has some Arabic influence and Arabic is a Semitic language. But, in fact, the shape of their Kinara and the way they light it was obvioulsy inspired by the Jewish Hanukkah. I don't know if just getting inspiration from a Holy Jewish item they just may have seen at the same time of their secular feast is hallachically a sin for a Gentile or not. A Rav should decide.
And Kwanzaa does not pretend to be an original ethnic traditional celebration from Africa. It's meant to honour African heritage even if using a constructed celebration to be held collectively by African descendants who lost their individual tribal traditions. So it cannot be considered to be a fraud.
If I celebrated the Italian Republic Day with a meal but I ate typical Argentine food instead of traditional Italian meals, is it a fraud?
Apart from the possibility of an hallachically transgression with that Kinara, I don't see anything wrong with Kwanzaa.
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Raul, it was founded by a convicted felon Black Power nationalist who specifically claims it as a "real African holiday".
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Raul, it was founded by a convicted felon Black Power nationalist who specifically claims it as a "real African holiday".
The custom of celebrating at the end of December and beginning of Juanuary is, in fact, a harvest festival of Kenia and other African countries. The way of the celebration was constructed. The fact that it was started by a nationalist (perhaps Black supremacist) doesn't mean that people who celebrate it now are racists.
The Christian holidays in the solar calendar were fixed by Constantinus who murdered his own son. The adoption and adaptation of ancient Julian Calendar to Christianity was the first stept to prohibit the observation of the moon needed to fix the Hebrew Calendar, the murdering of all the Rabbies Samuchim fit for the Sanhedrin, and the decapitation of all inhabitants of a city where a Rabbie got original Semicha. Hillel, of blessed memory, foresaw the tragedy and revealed the secret of mathematical intercalation so that Jews could keep the torah Festival days till today. So, should we say that also christmas is an evil fraud? No, because Christians of today are generally not supportive of Constantinus' genocide.
So what's different with Kwanzaa? Is it because they're Black?
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Now, to the original question. A Jew recomended that in case someone greets a Jew or Noahide for Christmas, he should say: Thank you, but we don't celebrate Christmas. I wish you a Happy Festival.
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Honestly, I respect Kwanza as any other celebration which honours an ethnicity and one's heritage.
So you celebrate copycat fraud holidays. You realize Kwanzaa was created by a jealous black person who took some stuff from hanukah and some stuff from Christmas. You realize they light a Kenorah....a KENORAH!!! I mean how original is that fraud of a holiday?!
The guy was also a career criminal and FBI informant. I always suspected the Seinfeld Festivus was poking fun at Kwanza.