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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on June 23, 2011, 11:15:16 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13855238
Jewish bodies found in medieval well in Norwich
Graphic showing the skeletons in the well There is evidence the children were thrown down the well after the adults
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Related Stories
Professor Black in Kosovo
Q&A: Jews in Britain
The remains of 17 bodies found at the bottom of a medieval well in England could have been victims of persecution, new evidence has suggested.
The most likely explanation is that those down the well were Jewish and were probably murdered or forced to commit suicide, according to scientists who used a combination of DNA analysis, carbon dating and bone chemical studies in their investigation.
The skeletons date back to the 12th or 13th Centuries at a time when Jewish people were facing persecution throughout Europe.
They were discovered in 2004 during an excavation of a site in the centre of Norwich, ahead of construction of the Chapelfield Shopping Centre. The remains were put into storage and have only recently been the subject of investigation.
Seven skeletons were successfully tested and five of them had a DNA sequence suggesting they were likely to be members of a single Jewish family.
DNA expert Dr Ian Barnes, who carried out the tests, said: "This is a really unusual situation for us. This is a unique set of data that we have been able to get for these individuals.
"I am not aware that this has been done before - that we have been able to pin them down to this level of specificity of the ethnic group that they seem to come from."
'Ethnic cleansing'
The team has been led by forensic anthropologist Professor Sue Black, of the University of Dundee's Centre for Anthropology and Human Identification.
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Find out more
The Cold Case team: Professor Sue Black, Dr Xanthe Mallett and Professor Caroline Wilkinson
History Cold Case: The Bodies in the Well will be on BBC Two at 2100 BST on Thursday 23 June 2011
Professor Sue Black, Dr Xanthe Mallett and Professor Caroline Wilkinson will delve deeper into the mystery and attempt to recreate the faces of those found in the well
Read more about the programme
Catch up on BBC iPlayer
Professor Black, who went to the Balkans following the Kosovo war - where her job was to piece together the bodies of massacred Kosovan Albanians - said this discovery had changed the direction of the whole investigation.
Regarding the nature of the discovery, Professor Black said: "We are possibly talking about persecution. We are possibly talking about ethnic cleansing and this all brings to mind the scenario that we dealt with during the Balkan War crimes."
Eleven of the 17 skeletons were those of children aged between two and 15. The remaining six were adult men and women.
"In terms of the brutality of the ethnic cleansing, it was thought women and children quite frankly weren't worth wasting the bullets on," added Professor Black.
"Pregnant women were bayoneted because that way you got rid of a woman because that wasn't important and you got rid of the next generation because you didn't want them to survive. So I know what sort of pattern I am looking for."
Cushioned fall
Pictures taken at the time of excavation suggested the bodies were thrown down the well together, head first.
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Medieval Jewish History
1066: The Norman Conquest opens the way to Jewish immigration. The monarchy needs to borrow money and Christians are forbidden to lend money at interest. London, Lincoln and York become centres for substantial Jewish populations.
1100s: Resentment against the Jewish community grows over their perceived wealth and belief they killed Jesus. The "blood libels" - Jews are accused of the ritual murder of Christian children.
1190: Many Jewish people massacred in York. In Norwich they flee to the city's castle for refuge. Those who stay in their homes are butchered.
1230s: Executions in Norwich after an allegation a Christian child was kidnapped.
1272: Edward I comes to the throne and enforces extra taxes on the Jewish community.
1290: Edward I expels the Jews en masse after devising a new form of royal financing using Christian knights to fill the coffers.
Read more - Q&A: Jews in Britain
A close examination of the adult bones showed fractures caused by the impact of hitting the bottom of the well. But the same damage was not seen on the children's bones, suggesting they were thrown in after the adults who cushioned the fall of their bodies.
The team had earlier considered the possibility of death by disease but the bone examination also showed no evidence of diseases such as leprosy or tuberculosis.
Giles Emery, the archaeologist who led the original excavation, said at first he thought it might have been a plague burial, but carbon dating had shown that to be impossible as the plague came much later.
And historians pointed out that even during times of plague when mass graves were used, bodies were buried in an ordered way with respect and religious rites.
Norwich had been home to a thriving Jewish community since 1135 and many lived near the well site. But there are records of persecution of Jews in medieval England including in Norwich (see fact box).
Sophie Cabot, an archaeologist and expert on Norwich's Jewish history, said the Jewish people had been invited to England by the King to lend money because at the time, the Christian interpretation of the bible did not allow Christians to lend money and charge interest. It was regarded as a sin.
So cash finance for big projects came from the Jewish community and some became very wealthy - which in turn, caused friction.
"There is a resentment of the fact that Jews are making money... and they are doing it in a way that doesn't involve physical labour, things that are necessarily recognised as work... like people feel about bankers now," said Ms Cabot.
The findings of the investigation represented a sad day for Norwich.
Ms Cabot added: "It changes the story of what we know about the community. We don't know everything about the community but what we do know is changed by this."
History Cold Case: The Bodies in a Well will be on BBC Two at 2100 BST on Thursday 23 June 2011 and afterwards in the UK on BBC iPlayer.
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Anyone born of British stock should be ashamed. What vicious cruel animals they were collectively.
And in modern times they love muslims. They actually did the reverse process - first they were cruel to the merciful, THEN they were kind to the cruel.
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This is beyond upsetting. If this won't bring tears to your eyes....!!
And yet, multiply this times 6 million and you have the Holocaust.
G-d bless Israel and keep her strong and large and powerful for all time. If the Jews won't have Israel, what will they have? And may the Lord smite anyone who tries to take away one inch from Eretz Yisrael (אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל).
NEVER AGAIN!
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Anyone born of British stock should be ashamed. What vicious cruel animals they were collectively.
And in modern times they love muslims. They actually did the reverse process - first they were cruel to the merciful, THEN they were kind to the cruel.
This is very upsetting news but what about the british people who fought Hitler, doesn't that count for something?
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This is very upsetting news but what about the british people who fought Hitler, doesn't that count for something?
That's wonderful; but, to be fair, they didn't fight Hitler to save the Jews. And, of course, neither did we. So I think you're trying to give credit where credit is not due.
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This is very upsetting news but what about the british people who fought Hitler, doesn't that count for something?
You mean while they banned Jewish immigration to Eretz Yisrael and day after day thousands of Jews were burned and gassed in Europe, but all to please muslims, they kept the Jews OUT of Eretz Yisrael, and meanwhile they "fought hitler" on the battlefield since he bombed them and they didnt want him to take control of all of europe since they wanted their own hegemony over Europe, and I'm supposed to feel good about it? The British are sick and deserve whatever they get from the Muslims. A british person should be ashamed to be British and I could appreciate that.
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The Jews always get screwed over. Families thrown down wells by the English and blocked from Israel, 6 million gassed by Germans, tens of thousands murdered in Polish Pogroms, thousands bombed and knifed by Arabs....you name it. We finally have Israel, with a powerful army and airforce, to protect us. However, Israel has leaders who don't want to protect Jews, but rather have Israel commit suicide by turning the state of Israel against her own Jews, all to further their own careers and appease the left.
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A few months before the outbreak of WWII the British established a "White Paper" with the intention within ten years of turning all of Israel over to the Arab majority which wanted to throw us into the sea.
By the way the Arabs had a majority at that time because, Britain allowed/encouraged illegal Arab immigration from other lands into Israel and put many barriers to Jewish immigration and land purchase.
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The Jews always get screwed over. Families thrown down wells by the English and blocked from Israel, 6 million gassed by Germans, tens of thousands murdered in Polish Pogroms, thousands bombed and knifed by Arabs....you name it. We finally have Israel, with a powerful army and airforce, to protect us. However, Israel has leaders who don't want to protect Jews, but rather have Israel commit suicide by turning the state of Israel against her own Jews, all to further their own careers and appease the left.
If Obama wins again, he will strong arm his Jew, Flunky Netenyahu, to finish final status talks, for a "Palestinian State."
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This is very sad and rather creepy.
Although I think its a little much to ask someone to feel ashamed for something that took place a thousand years ago. In medieval times everyone was a bastard, period. All sorts of bloody punishments and barbaric wars.
Have no fear though, I throw my hands up in disgust at the Britain of recent history. Seems nobody learns the lessons of the past.
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AKA "the usual".
They usually get persecuted one way or another.
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Anyone born of British stock should be ashamed. What vicious cruel animals they were collectively.
And in modern times they love muslims. They actually did the reverse process - first they were cruel to the merciful, THEN they were kind to the cruel.
Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?
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Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?
Anyone who is proud of their antisemitic ancestors should be rebuked... It seems that Brittan has not changed its ways.
I dont hold those descendants personally responsible for the deeds of their fathers but they are responsible for any lingering antisemitic feelings.
What I have heard about this case is that the Jewish victims have not even been treated fairly to this day. This was discovered in 2004 and the victims have yet to have a real Jewish burial. If these were not Jews you can bet that they would be resting in peace but since they are Jews their remains are being left to rot, treated worse than American Indian remains in America.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/10353
The Jewish Martyrs of Norwich
Sivan 25, 5771, 27 June 11 08:44
by Victor Sharpe
(Israelnationalnews.com) The news of the discovery in Norwich, England of a presumed mass murder of Jewish men, women and children that took place in medieval times has left hardly a ripple, especially among the present day Anglo-Jewish community. This is passing strange as it now appears that the bodies – all 17 of them – were found as long ago as 2004 and have been kept in storage all that time without decent or respectful burial.
The remains were discovered during the construction of a new shopping center and researchers from the Center for Anatomy and Human Identification at Dundee University have deduced that all 17 bodies were thrown head first down a well in either the 12th or 13th centuries.
The conclusion from DNA research is that they were Jews and that at least five were from the same family.
Eleven of the bodies were of children from the ages of 2 to 15 with five of them below the age of five.
England was no different from most of Christendom during the Medieval period and beyond. Europe then was as much a charnel house for the stateless and hapless Jews as it was during the Holocaust. The same relentless hatred of the Jews lay like a psychosis among the vast majority of Europeans and England was no exception.
Today that same aberrant behavior manifests itself in unfounded hatred towards the Jewish state and in a perverse ultra-support for the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.
In England, a catastrophe broke upon the Jews during the Third Crusade (1189-1192) when the coronation of Richard Coeur de Lion took place. Anti-Jewish mobs attacked and murdered Jews from Norwich to Dunstable and throughout many English towns because of a false rumor that King Richard had ordered the Jews who had come to honor him at the palace to be turned away.
During the king’s absence while on the crusade, the Jewish community of York tried to find refuge in the lord's castle from ravening mobs bent on the Jews’ destruction. Rather than fall into the hands of the fanatical mob, the Jews, at least 150 in humber, took their own lives on March 17th, 1190.
Rabbi Yom Tov ben Isaac uttered these final words: “It is plainly the will of G-d of our Fathers that we die for his holy Law. And lo, death is at our door … for if we fall into their hands, we shall die in mockery at their arbitrary choice.” A rabbinic ban (cherem) prohibited Jewish residence in York after that pogrom.
Peter Abelard, the French scholar, himself a victim of persecution by the Church, was a lone voice in sympathizing with the harried and tormented Jews throughout so much of Europe. He wrote in 1135: “No nation has undergone such sufferings for G-d. Scattered among all the nations, having neither king nor secular prince, the Jews are oppressed with heavy taxes as if they must buy their lives anew every day … The Jews are not permitted to own fields and vineyards … Thus the only livelihood that remains to them is usury, and this in turn excites the hatred of the Christians.”
One of the earliest cases of blood libel, the rumors of ritual murder falsely spread against the Jews. was recorded in the same Norwich, England. In 1146, the local Jews were accused of having kidnapped, tortured and killed a Christian boy before the Passover. Thus began the blood libel that spread throughout Christendom and resulted for centuries in the massacres of countless Jewish victims. In Poland and Russia at Easter time, which so often corresponds with the Passover festival, Jews were routinely slaughtered in pogroms.
In short, the discovery of the 17 presumably Jewish bodies in the Norwich well attests to the anti-Jewish hatred that permeated every facet of medieval life throughout Christendom from the Popes to the secular kings and princes on down to the peasants.
That these bodies have been in storage since 2004 with, as far as I am aware, apparently no outrage expressed by the Anglo-Jewish community or its representative Board of Deputies is deplorable. If this story is true, then the bodies of the murdered Jews should immediately be flown to Israel – the Jewish biblical and ancestral homeland – where they will be given the appropriate and dignified burial according to the laws of Moses.
If it has not already taken place, I hope Britain’s Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sachs, will be addressing this appalling situation.
One can only imagine the riots in British streets if these skeletons had been identified as belonging to Muslims and were being treated in this manner.
Inflamed Christians leaving their respective churches during medieval times, and bent on murdering Jews after hearing vitriolic and hateful anti-Jewish sermons from their priests, were no different from today’s Muslims who leave their mosques with a blood lust after hearing their imams preach anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu and anti-Buddhist diatribes.
In contrast, Christians in America have historically eschewed the hate that their European coreligionists spewed for centuries. Indeed, millions of American Christians have embraced the Jewish roots of their faith and have been stalwart friends of the reborn Jewish state. Their support has been an immense encouragement to embattled Israel whose enemies encompass it with growing strength and enmity.
Sadly, however, too many liberal churches and denominations in the United States have fallen victim to the lies and modern day anti-Israel blood libels spewed by the likes of the Rev. Naim Ateek and his Sabeel organization – an appendage of the Saudi and oil rich Arab funded anti-Jewish and anti-Israel Palestinian propaganda campaign; a repetitious catalogue of calumnies against the Jewish state that surely gives the ghost of Josef Goebbels great delight.
So if indeed the bodies in the well turn out to be Jewish victims and martyrs, Israel should immediately demand that they be transferred to the Jewish state as the only decent site for their Jewish burial.
So too should a memorial be erected in Norwich to the martyred Jews, just as a plaque exists in York commemorating the martyred Jews of that city.
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Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?
Stick around long enough and you'll find out some people will put just about any European ethnicity on the 'Amalek' list sooner or later, except maybe Serbs. :::D :laugh:
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Noticed the antisemitic joke? "The most likely explanation is that those down the well were Jewish..." - Reminds you something?
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Noticed the antisemitic joke? "The most likely explanation is that those down the well were Jewish..." - Reminds you something?
Borat?
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Stick around long enough and you'll find out some people will put just about any European ethnicity on the 'Amalek' list sooner or later, except maybe Serbs. :::D :laugh:
Funny I never mentioned Amalek. Care to elaborate?
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Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?
Well I guess it does then. They should be ashamed of whatever part of them is British in that case.
Unless you are proud of what they've done. If so, go ahead and say so.
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Anyone who is proud of their antisemitic ancestors should be rebuked... It seems that Brittan has not changed its ways.
I dont hold those descendants personally responsible for the deeds of their fathers but they are responsible for any lingering antisemitic feelings.
What I have heard about this case is that the Jewish victims have not even been treated fairly to this day. This was discovered in 2004 and the victims have yet to have a real Jewish burial. If these were not Jews you can bet that they would be resting in peace but since they are Jews their remains are being left to rot, treated worse than American Indian remains in America.
Well said. I think its the lingering antisemitic feelings that are an issue. And I think this has found its way to modern British liberalism. Remember, there are British school districts that have decided to no longer teach the holocaust since it offends Muslim sensibilities. This kinda of ridiculous response to Islam has at least some of its roots in historic Jew hating.
I know that many Brits arent the same Jew-haters as their ancestors, but its still a major problem.
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Well I guess it does then. They should be ashamed of whatever part of them is British in that case.
Unless you are proud of what they've done. If so, go ahead and say so.
I would not put Americans in the same basket as the British (as far as antisemitism is concerned).
The Americans fought the British to get their independence just like the Israelis fought the British to get their independence. The Americans were not a colonial empire like the British.
The Americans have never been in love with the Arabs like the British.
It was not the Americans who were in charge of the territory called Palestine before 1948 and who led the disastrous antisemitic policy there, it was the British.
Today, despite the powerful global campaign of delegitimization of Israel, a majority of Americans still support Israel, whereas the vast majority of the British are viciously anti-Israel and pro-Arab.
America has made a number of mistakes, but the fact is that America remains the best ally, perhaps the only ally, of Israel - of course I am not talking about Obama, I am talking about the real America. The Jews should not always blame Gentiles, especially righteous Gentiles, for the problems they face. The worst ennemies of the Jews are the self-hating Jews.
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You mean while they banned Jewish immigration to Eretz Yisrael and day after day thousands of Jews were burned and gassed in Europe, but all to please muslims, they kept the Jews OUT of Eretz Yisrael, and meanwhile they "fought hitler" on the battlefield since he bombed them and they didnt want him to take control of all of europe since they wanted their own hegemony over Europe, and I'm supposed to feel good about it? The British are sick and deserve whatever they get from the Muslims. A british person should be ashamed to be British and I could appreciate that.
Thats certainly true of the government but not of the frontline troops. I remember seeing a holocaust documentary and a veteran was recounting the liberation of the concentration camps. He was choked up with tears even though the events had taken place over fifty years ago. He couldn't comprehend what could cause people to treat fellow human beings so barbarically. He cared.
He said history must draw a line in the sand and say no more of this.
There are good british people they're just really well hidden.
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I would not put Americans in the same basket as the British (as far as antisemitism is concerned).
The Americans fought the British to get their independence just like the Israelis fought the British to get their independence. The Americans were not a colonial empire like the British.
The Americans have never been in love with the Arabs like the British.
It was not the Americans who were in charge of the territory called Palestine before 1948 and who led the disastrous antisemitic policy there, it was the British.
Today, despite the powerful global campaign of delegitimization of Israel, a majority of Americans still support Israel, whereas the vast majority of the British are viciously anti-Israel and pro-Arab.
America has made a number of mistakes, but the fact is that America remains the best ally, perhaps the only ally, of Israel - of course I am not talking about Obama, I am talking about the real America. The Jews should not always blame Gentiles, especially righteous Gentiles, for the problems they face. The worst ennemies of the Jews are the self-hating Jews.
Exactly. I believe that self-hating Jews are the reason why so many people in this world hate the Jews.
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I noticed the title erroneously says 10th century. As far as I know the pre-Norman Celts and Anglo-Saxons of the British isles weren't particularly oppressive towards the Jews.
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Funny I never mentioned Amalek. Care to elaborate?
I don't think people of English descent need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago. They couldn't possibly have committed that crime because they weren't born then.
The better response to this is to encourage people not to be anti-Semitic today rather than throwing a guilt trip on people who aren't anyway.
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I don't think people of English descent need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago. They couldn't possibly have committed that crime because they weren't born then.
The better response to this is to encourage people not to be anti-Semitic today rather than throwing a guilt trip on people who aren't anyway.
Antisemitism is taught and it is very probable that a person brought up in an antisemitic household will grow up antisemitic. This is one reason the Torah, in the 2nd of the '10 commandments' says that Hashem loves the righteous to the 1000th generation while he curses the wicked to the third or fourth generation. Children often do continue the sins of their parents...
2nd Commandment:
"For I the Lord your G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children of the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments."
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter5-21a.html?print=1
With this in mind, we can gain an understanding of one of the most widely misunderstood concepts of the Torah. For as long as there have been skeptics, people have naively (or willfully) misunderstood Judaism as a religion of strict justice, commanded by a wrathful G-d of vengeance. Does not the Torah state, "For I, the L-rd your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the sons, on the third generation and on the fourth generation to those that hate Me" (Exodus 20:5)?
At a relatively young age, I recall reading a book on ancient history which defined Judaism (at least ancient Judaism -- maybe some folks have come along and *improved* upon it since then!) as a religion of grim and compassionless justice, in which if a man sins, G-d not only punishes the sinner but his son as well. (I guess "Love your fellow as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 -- that's The Tanach) was somehow only discovered by the Christians.) (Incidentally, even at that young age my religious upbringing was healthy enough for me to realize I was basically reading patent rubbish. Sad that much of the unsuspecting public is not so well-equipped.)
For starters, I would suspect nothing short of willful misrepresentation here. The following verse in Exodus continues: "And {I} do kindness for two thousand generations for those who love Me and for those who observe My commandments." On this the Sages observe, rather matter of factly, that G-d's kindness is 500 times greater than His justice (Mechilta there).
However, even this aside, this is a concept which requires examination. G-d does seem to carry over sins -- as well as mitzvos (good deeds) -- from one generation to the next. What could the justice be behind that? How could the hapless son somehow be faulted for the sins of his wicked father?
The first relevant observation is that the Talmud makes it evidently clear that children are rewarded or punished only if they continue in their parents' path (Brachos 7a). G-d does not reward or punish because of ancient history -- because of a past the children had no knowledge of nor control over. The children must follow their parents' good or evil ways, at least indirectly giving it their tacit approval.
Even so, this topic is far from concluded. Even if the son does continue in his father's path (and let's face it -- that's what the son grew up with -- he had far less ability to decide than the rest of us), why is he punished (or rewarded) beyond what he himself does? Can I really be punished for someone else's sins?
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I don't think people of English descent need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago. They couldn't possibly have committed that crime because they weren't born then.
The better response to this is to encourage people not to be anti-Semitic today rather than throwing a guilt trip on people who aren't anyway.
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Rubystars, that comment wasn't meant for you, in particular. Don't take it personally. We just read a horrible story about what what the British Bastards did to the Jews- throwing an entire Jewish family down a well- to their deaths. So try to understand where we are coming from, and the anger that it invokes. And don't get so upset over every last comment you read. If you were Jewish, you might say the same thing. Britain today, is an extremely anti semitic country. Read the article on Aruts sheva, about the British and their antisemitism which continues to this very day!
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I don't think there's any such thing as an anti-Semitic gene. It's a problem that affects pretty much every nation including anti-Semitic Jews.
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I don't think there's any such thing as an anti-Semitic gene. It's a problem that affects pretty much every nation including anti-Semitic Jews.
I didn't hear anyone suggest that. But certain peoples have more of a proclivity to be antisemites due to their heritage...
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I didn't hear anyone suggest that. But certain peoples have more of a proclivity to be antisemites due to their heritage...
You could argue along the same lines that Jews raised in the USA have more of a proclivity to be extreme leftists, but that doesn't mean that being Jewish makes someone a leftist or that all Jews in the USA are leftists. I would agree with you that someone raised in an anti-Semitic environment is more prone to be an anti-Semite though.
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You could argue along the same lines that Jews raised in the USA have more of a proclivity to be extreme leftists, but that doesn't mean that being Jewish makes someone a leftist or that all Jews in the USA are leftists. I would agree with you that someone raised in an anti-Semitic environment is more prone to be an anti-Semite though.
And this is what we have been trying to say... The British have a history, a very long history, of Jew hatred. I doubt that it is coincidental that till this day there is a very clear antisemitic bend in British thinking. Just read the BBC for instance and realize that the British will always have a problem with the Jewish people.
I also agree that there are good English and bad English, and I hope that one day they can erase the bad reputation they have.
Aish.com has this on British Antisemitism :
http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48898202.html
Last year the number of anti-Semitic attacks in England rose alarmingly by over 40% -- the steepest rise in Europe -- to its highest level ever. But it is not the level of street attacks that I find most frightening. Rather it is the openly expressed loathing for Israel and Jews among a large swath of Britain's elites. It was the complete collapse of German elites before Hitler and his lumpenproletariat followers that allowed Hitler's rise to power in the most civilized nation in Europe. The German elites were infected with the same anti-Semitism as the uneducated sign painter.
http://www.shemayisrael.com/orgs/baiskaila/html/editor_s_preface__the_making_of_a_martyr.html
The first recorded case of what was to become known as the “blood libel” can be found in the chronicles of English history. In 1144, the Jews of Norwich were officially charged with abducting, torturing and murdering a Christian child in order to use his blood for Passover. Just two years later, reports of this incident spread rapidly among the knights and peasants massing in France for the start of the Second Crusade.
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In 1255, all the Jews of Lincoln, England, gathered for a wedding. The next day, the body of a boy named Hugh, who had been missing for a month, was found. He had probably drowned in a cesspool, but the Jews were accused of abducting him, hiding him for a month and fattening him up. It was charged that the wedding party was really a celebration of Hugh’s crucifixion and that everyone had partaken of his blood. Nineteen Jews were hung without benefit of a trial.
More blood libels followed in London and Gloucester. By a decree signed on Tishah b’Av, July 18, 1290, all Jews were banished from England, not to be legally readmitted until the middle of the nineteenth century. Even in their absence, however, the blood libel accusation was perpetuated and the deleterious image of the Jew reinforced. A century after the banishment of the Jews of England, Chaucer wrote The Prioress’ Tale, which centered around “Jew demons” who were handmaidens of the devil and murdered Christian children.
See this for a complete history of Jewish persecution over the centuries : http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/
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I would not put Americans in the same basket as the British (as far as antisemitism is concerned).
But I didn't say that!
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You know, in the country I was born and raised in (usa), once a year we celebrate the fact that we are not british. And here there are people in love with brits to the point that they want to excuse their behavior just because it (some of it!) happened a long time ago?
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I don't think people of English descent need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago. They couldn't possibly have committed that crime because they weren't born then.
The better response to this is to encourage people not to be anti-Semitic today rather than throwing a guilt trip on people who aren't anyway.
I think this line of thinking is ridiculous. First of all the things I mentioned aren't all hundreds of years ago. Some are not even 100. But that argument has no relevance even if they were all hundreds of years ago. If the person lives in some other country (like the example hotspot mentioned), he comes from this cursed wretched british stock from hundreds of years ago. He comes from that culture which was undeniably evil and collectively did terrible things.
If a kid is born into a gangsta rappa family, you don't think he should be ashamed of the evil culture he comes from, dissociate from it, and try to undo its wrongs? "Well biggie smalls was so many years ago anyway, so I'm proud my family is full of gangsta rappers." "Well louis farrakhans comments about jews were from so long ago therefore I am proud to associate with nation of islam." Or for a german - " family murdered one third of the jewish people but hey that was over 6 decades ago!" Nothing to be ashamed about in his past or where he comes from? Since when is where a person comes from not important to people.
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I don't think people of English descent need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago. They couldn't possibly have committed that crime because they weren't born then.
The better response to this is to encourage people not to be anti-Semitic today rather than throwing a guilt trip on people who aren't anyway.
Let's also acknowledge that my comment and now your response had nothing to do with Amalek. I think you brought it up because you are really defensive about defending your "race."
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http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter5-21a.html?print=1
Very good point.
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Amalake were not Europeans or progenitors.They were Semitic Canaanites
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If you look at recent history, the tragic consequences of the British opposition to the creation of the state of Israel and to Jewish immigration in Palestine in the 1930s should not be underestimated : if the state of Israel had been created just ten years before 1948, there would have been no Shoah. But, while the Nazis came to power and began to carry out their agenda toward Jews, the British closed the doors of the land of Israel that they occupied to European Jews who needed to flee. These bastards even fired on Shoah survivors who had lost everything and who were desperate to reach Israel after WWII !
Today, the British are probably the most anti-Israel and pro-Arab people in Europe - although the other European countries are very bad too, and they are probably the biggest dhimmis too - a lot of them love Islam.
However, in terms of hatred and persecution of European Jews living inside their borders, the Germans, the Ukrainians, the Russians, the Poles, the Romanians and the Spanish have been far worse than the British on a historical perspective. For the last two centuries, Jews have been free and safe in Britain, at least until the development of radical Islam on Britain's soil.
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I think this line of thinking is ridiculous. First of all the things I mentioned aren't all hundreds of years ago. Some are not even 100. But that argument has no relevance even if they were all hundreds of years ago. If the person lives in some other country (like the example hotspot mentioned), he comes from this cursed wretched british stock from hundreds of years ago. He comes from that culture which was undeniably evil and collectively did terrible things.
I was talking about the well thing. I don't think anybody today should be guilty about it because they obviously didn't do it and you don't even know for sure if the people were Jewish.
If a kid is born into a gangsta rappa family, you don't think he should be ashamed of the evil culture he comes from, dissociate from it, and try to undo its wrongs? "Well biggie smalls was so many years ago anyway, so I'm proud my family is full of gangsta rappers." "Well louis farrakhans comments about jews were from so long ago therefore I am proud to associate with nation of islam." Or for a german - " family murdered one third of the jewish people but hey that was over 6 decades ago!" Nothing to be ashamed about in his past or where he comes from? Since when is where a person comes from not important to people.
It just seemed weird that you should think anyone who had English ancestry should be ashamed of having English ancestry because of this well incident. I'm not going around telling all the Italians they should be ashamed of being Italian because Nero persecuted Christians.
Of course how someone is brought up affects them but I think where I didn't understand you was connecting anyone in the modern world to assign guilt for something that happened in the distant past.
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Let's also acknowledge that my comment and now your response had nothing to do with Amalek. I think you brought it up because you are really defensive about defending your "race."
Well the reason I am is because white Americans are losing while others like illegal immigrants are gaining power.
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I was talking about the well thing. I don't think anybody today should be guilty about it because they obviously didn't do it and you don't even know for sure if the people were Jewish.
Oh, I was mostly talking about other things. This well thing just added icing on the cake, but in reality, it could have been nothing at all (maybe this was a gentile family in the well), but still the Brits expelled Jews on numerous occasions in history and treated them like garbage. And today they love them some Muslims, mmm hmm.
It just seemed weird that you should think anyone who had English ancestry should be ashamed of having English ancestry because of this well incident.
That wasn't what I said. I mentioned several huge historical factors. If this well thing really happened as the researchers think it did, it's only one solitary act among many and among a culture that bred it. But without the well, people should be ashamed of the actions of the British in history.
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Of course how someone is brought up affects them but I think where I didn't understand you was connecting anyone in the modern world to assign guilt for something that happened in the distant past.
Guilt wasn't the word I used. I don't understand how anyone can be proud of British heritage given the evil things they have done in history, that's all. Even moreso for a German.