JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tag-MehirTzedek on December 25, 2011, 10:33:09 PM
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Harassment of little religious Jewish girls by soo called "zealots".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gjicqi4WQk
Violating Shabbat, standing with the enemies of Israel, laughing and having a good time when a Muslim is praising Hitler telling you how great Hitler was and how we need another Hitler ! And doing this in the name of the Torah and Judaism !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlaahAcYp_Y
The Sicariim want Or Hachaim to stop selling English language books and to stop selling books about Orthodox Zionism or books written by Orthodox Zionists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0D85JepM_8
their are other such incidents. I believe it should be the Religious and the Haredim who are in the front fighting such people since they are their main targets and to clearly show the public what Judaism is and what it is not!
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http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/
This Rav leads (or at least writes about) a lot of fights against such extremists who do things against the Torah in the name of the Torah. It is definitely proper to fight and oppose them, just as it is proper to fight and oppose the leftists as well.
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בס''ד
Your first video shows a Jewish woman deliberately walking up to Charedi Jews to provoke them. This woman is an animal. She is deliberately trying to cause conflict between Jews.
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With all due respect I hope you take your comment back (as I'm sure you are mistaken in this incident). I think I posted the wrong video as well (and this is just a series of them with the school incident).
The pathway is for everyone, these "zealots" were screaming at little Jewish girls who by the way were and are dressed properly. They are standing outside a Jewish school screaming "shiksa" and words like slut and other such things. I think she is trying to clear the path soo her daughter can go to school! Those ppl are the real animals for sure (and their were other religious Jews and "Haredim" as well protesting against them when this was happening).
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This is the video I should have posted (with the first description).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PalYKPRFZzs&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
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on the 1st video i can't comment one way or the other, cuz i understood none of it through the shouting.
all i understood the haredim shouting "tistalku mi'po" (get out of here) and then the cop at about 3:00 said "film all you want but stay back here". context please
comment directed at "Video #1 of the problems in Beit Shemesh 2011-09-06"
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Had Rav Kahane been alive today I believe he would have given them a good beating and lesson. If I was a father of one of those kids and I had them screaming at my daughter like that I would like to think that I would punch them in the face or throw a rock at them or something and not just take this harassment.
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on the 1st video i can't comment one way or the other, cuz i understood none of it through the shouting.
all i understood the haredim shouting "tistalku mi'po" (get out of here) and then the cop at about 3:00 said "film all you want but stay back here". context please
comment directed at "Video #1 of the problems in Beit Shemesh 2011-09-06"
Yea that was my mistake, because that video is just the beginning of a series of video's and I didn't re look at it now (well I did afterwards). But seeing the whole context (and the recent video on this topic, the last one) one clearly see what is going on.
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on the 1st video i can't comment one way or the other, cuz i understood none of it through the shouting.
all i understood the haredim shouting "tistalku mi'po" (get out of here) and then the cop at about 3:00 said "film all you want but stay back here". context please
That is the problem. Their were and are what you would call "Haredim" against them (besides the Religious Zionists who were clearly their target). You see them and assume everyone which is what the leftists want. (If you request I can find video of the Rabbi from mystical paths (very "Haredi" there protesting these people as well) besides him writing about it in his blogg.
Also another problem is the fact that a small group of siccarim are able to make such negative impart upon society. Why should people be scared of them? Why are the Religious Zionists even begging the police to come and help them. Had each of those parents picken up a rock and hurled it at them the problem would have been much less and solved quickly.
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בס''ד
Where were they screaming at the girls? The girls walked through and no one screamed at them. I don't know what these Charedim were protesting but it was not these girls because the girls were dressed properly according to halacha. The guy who is sarcastically commenting on the video is full of baloney.
In the first video that you brought, a woman who was not dressed according to halacha (her sleeves did not cover up to her elbows) deliberately walked into this group of Charedim and stood there facing them provocatively and smiling. This was an intentional provocation. The Charedim responded by covering their faces and turning away.
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What's the point of these videos?
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בס''ד
Where were they screaming at the girls? The girls walked through and no one screamed at them. I don't know what these Charedim were protesting but it was not these girls because the girls were dressed properly according to halacha. The guy who is sarcastically commenting on the video is full of baloney.
In the first video that you brought, a woman who was not dressed according to halacha (her sleeves did not cover up to her elbows) deliberately walked into this group of Charedim and stood there facing them provocatively and smiling. This was an intentional provocation. The Charedim responded by covering their faces and turning away.
I have been reading this at the time of the incidents and partly here it is from the Rav:
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/09/terrorism-in-bet-shemesh.html
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/09/bet-shemesh-update.html
Also another video (with screams of Shiksa and Sheigetz on little Jewish girls)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U-hDCWjcaZg#!
Here is an interview with Rav from mystical paths who is against them (I believe he is Breslov Rabbi) where they describe what they are protesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_UaST9W0Rw
, Also mind you, most of these "protests" are made against the Religious-Zionists and the Haredi community. They want to intimidate and control the public to conform to their standards and their control.
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What's the point of these videos?
To show and contrast the fanaticism which they call Torah-Judaism, and then to contrast it with real Torah and Judaism and what it represents and does. Perhaps I will open another thread as well for that.
Isn't it important to make a distinction between them and real Judaism, and not have the media label and cram all religious Jews together as if they (these soo called "zealots" ) represent our Jewish values.
I also think that their are regular Jews who become discouraged and look down upon Judaism and religious Jews as a whole when they see these people and have the media associate Judaism with them! The Torah observant should be defining and teaching what Judaism exactly is.
Besides the fact that these people should be fought against.
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I understand protesting against those who violate Shabbat by driving in Jerusalem. But it should never get physical. I also understand that if a Jew wants to be able to ride the bus without dealing with women he should be able to. I understand issues of modesty while I don't live by such strict standards as avoiding all contact. I do attempt to keep the laws of Yichud by avoiding being behind closed doors with a woman who is forbidden. I also avoid physical contact if I can.... But I respect those who can avoid any such contact... So I defend their right to live in such a way...
But I also am against those who are so zealous that it leads them to violate the Torah in their protest. There is no excuse for such acts and it makes the entire Torah less significant in the eyes of the Jewish people.
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But I also am against those who are so zealous that it leads them to violate the Torah in their protest. There is no excuse for such acts and it makes the entire Torah less significant in the eyes of the Jewish people.
Thank you, beautifully said.
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Also their is another problem. When its not the religious Jews standing up to these things, these injustices and problems, then it will be the people in haaretz who take up these causes taking with them the Jewish masses and many times creating larger problems. For example the issue with women who cannot get their divorce papers from certain men. When Beit Din does not do what is necessary and suggests like like extortion it is the hellinists who come in and try to "change the situation" and show themselves to be the saviors. If this issue is not solved, properly, Jewishly, then the Hellinists could take over the institution of marriage and even create a greater problem and rift within Israeli society where some woul be able to marry some others and not all Jews in Israel. These (and many issues, including Zionism) the religious should take change and should make the proper changes (actually Halahic rules) needed in order to better society without having the secular courts and secularists coming in and taking the credit.
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A Question to Tag-MahirTzedek you said:
When Beit Din does not do what is necessary and suggests like like extortion it is the hellinists who come in and try to "change the situation" and show themselves to be the saviors.
Who do you mean by Beit Din {Jewish Court}?
For example, the state religious courts, give some power to political parties that deny the Divine Revelation of the Torah at Sinai, a say at who is appointed to the state religious court. Therefore if a Rabbi, for example, is too right-wing, he will be denied a high position in those courts.
Other courts, have other problems, where they sift out from the outset, those that don't 100% conform to their dress or societal norms, or come from the wrong families, etc.
You generally support, Rabbi Bar Hayyim. Try to think about it. Which establishment Beit Din that you know of would really allow, Rabbi Bar Hayyim to get to a real position of authority?
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בס''ד
Your first video shows a Jewish woman deliberately walking up to Charedi Jews to provoke them. This woman is an animal. She is deliberately trying to cause conflict between Jews.
You're missing the backstory. These guys were terrorizing little girls as they were walking home from school. Indeed the woman and man went with a camera to confront the scumbags!
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בס''ד
Where were they screaming at the girls? The girls walked through and no one screamed at them. I don't know what these Charedim were protesting but it was not these girls because the girls were dressed properly according to halacha. The guy who is sarcastically commenting on the video is full of baloney.
In the first video that you brought, a woman who was not dressed according to halacha (her sleeves did not cover up to her elbows) deliberately walked into this group of Charedim and stood there facing them provocatively and smiling. This was an intentional provocation. The Charedim responded by covering their faces and turning away.
It seems you are not aware of what goes on in ramat bet shemesh. It does not matter that the school girls are dressed according to the standards of tzniut. These guys have their own standards they made up independent of the halacha. They protest based on their own rules. They indeed shouted down little girls on their way from school. They spit at religious zionist kids too. Many other haredim think what they are doing is wrong. It has been this way for a long time in ramat bet shemesh. For example the ravs tell them do not throw rocks on shabbas, but they did anyway. These videos are a response to their madness. Painting them as victims is very inaccurate.
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A Question to Tag-MahirTzedek you said: Who do you mean by Beit Din {Jewish Court}?
For example, the state religious courts, give some power to political parties that deny the Divine Revelation of the Torah at Sinai, a say at who is appointed to the state religious court. Therefore if a Rabbi, for example, is too right-wing, he will be denied a high position in those courts.
Other courts, have other problems, where they sift out from the outset, those that don't 100% conform to their dress or societal norms, or come from the wrong families, etc.
You generally support, Rabbi Bar Hayyim. Try to think about it. Which establishment Beit Din that you know of would really allow, Rabbi Bar Hayyim to get to a real position of authority?
Rav bar hayim refuses to serve on a so called "bet din" that gets a salary from the israeli govt and is beholden to their demands.
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I think there was a feminist provocation recently with a woman who has been called the 'Rosa Parks' of Israeli bus transport.... I think she intentionally made a scene in order to draw attention to this issue, with feminist goals... I do not support such propaganda...
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You're missing the backstory. These guys were terrorizing little girls as they were walking home from school. Indeed the woman and man went with a camera to confront the scumbags!
Horrible videos.... Doesn't anyone work there? Whatever the back story is the picture put out by the videos shows Jews being hostile to fellow Jews... Not a good picture from an outsiders viewpoint.
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I think there was a feminist provocation recently with a woman who has been called the 'Rosa Parks' of Israeli bus transport.... I think she intentionally made a scene in order to draw attention to this issue, with feminist goals... I do not support such propaganda...
I do not know too much about this, but from the little I know I believe the lady was/is Haredi herself. We cant assume that she intentionally made a scene or anything like that, and in my opinion this assumption itself is problematic.
You cant claim something to be a provocation without proper evidence, either way what right does it give for those "provoked" to behave in the way they did?
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A Question to Tag-MahirTzedek you said: Who do you mean by Beit Din {Jewish Court}?
For example, the state religious courts, give some power to political parties that deny the Divine Revelation of the Torah at Sinai, a say at who is appointed to the state religious court. Therefore if a Rabbi, for example, is too right-wing, he will be denied a high position in those courts.
Other courts, have other problems, where they sift out from the outset, those that don't 100% conform to their dress or societal norms, or come from the wrong families, etc.
You generally support, Rabbi Bar Hayyim. Try to think about it. Which establishment Beit Din that you know of would really allow, Rabbi Bar Hayyim to get to a real position of authority?
I agree and I know this as well. But either way Rav Bar Hayim himself was talking about Beit Dinim following Halahic rules and for their a need for them to take care of issues such as releasing agunot (women who don't live with their husbands, yett cant remarry since they dont have the divorce papers, soo they are in limbo) from their position. And for this issue not to be resolved by the Hilonim instead because by the Beit Dinim not making anything the Hilonim can and then create a larger problem.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Rabbincial%20courts%20-%20do%20they%20function%20according%20to%20halachaD.mp3
(You can skip the beginning).
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I think there was a feminist provocation recently with a woman who has been called the 'Rosa Parks' of Israeli bus transport.... I think she intentionally made a scene in order to draw attention to this issue, with feminist goals... I do not support such propaganda...
But that has nothing to do with this.
8 year old girls required to be escorted home from school while lazy bums with no jobs yell "prutza" at them? Or, one of the things that happened before this, these vagrants break into the school and destroy property inside and then refuse to leave because they don't want a dati leumi school to go up in that spot? These clowns are seriously deranged.
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My Brother lived in Beit Shemesh they have 2 parts one where the fanatics live and one where the religious very religious live.My Nephew was walking to karate school he's 9 he started in the U.S. at 3 yrs old when he was 7 he moved to Israel and continued their.A group of those ultra orthodox saw his gee and yelled at him avodah zara :o one tried to punch him a grown man of maybe 25 my nephew beat him up and scared the othe fanatics away.Luckily my brothher has another apt in Yerushalayim.He left Beit Shemesh and moved to his apt in Jerusalem.He's orthodox and lains in the Torah.He said if he continued living in Beit Shemesh he would have killed someone.
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Horrible videos.... Doesn't anyone work there? Whatever the back story is the picture put out by the videos shows Jews being hostile to fellow Jews... Not a good picture from an outsiders viewpoint.
No they don't work, don't join the Army only cause disturbances
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What's dati leumi?
Anyway, the AP as an article about this as well:
The article says a Channel 2 news truck was attacked.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_GENDER_SEGREGATION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-25-07-13-29
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What's dati leumi?
Anyway, the AP as an article about this as well:
The article says a Channel 2 news truck was attacked.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_GENDER_SEGREGATION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-25-07-13-29
Nationalist Religious they make the best soldiers in the Israeli army
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What's dati leumi?
Anyway, the AP as an article about this as well:
The article says a Channel 2 news truck was attacked.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_GENDER_SEGREGATION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-25-07-13-29
Dati Leumi- National Religious
And what Mord said- exactly the point! They want people like your brother to move away and many unfortunately do just that.
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My Brother lived in Beit Shemesh they have 2 parts one where the fanatics live and one where the religious very religious live.My Nephew was walking to karate school he's 9 he started in the U.S. at 3 yrs old when he was 7 he moved to Israel and continued their.A group of those ultra orthodox saw his gee and yelled at him avodah zara :o one tried to punch him a grown man of maybe 25 my nephew beat him up and scared the othe fanatics away.Luckily my brothher has another apt in Yerushalayim.He left Beit Shemesh and moved to his apt in Jerusalem.He's orthodox and lains in the Torah.He said if he continued living in Beit Shemesh he would have killed someone.
Lol glad he taught them a lesson. I wish there were more kids like your nephew in rbshemesh or more that are raised like your nephew. It would really put an end to this madness faster than any stupid counter protests or police stupidity ever could do.
But this is exactly what I'm talking about, these gangsters do not care how religious the person is or how much halacha they keep - they are terrorizing anyone perceived to be even a little bit different.
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If those Haredim are anti-Zionist, don't serve in the army, and don't want any money going to the Israeli government, then why do they bother living in Israel? Why don't they stay in Brooklyn or someplace else in the galut?
Why do they knock the government when they're getting government support for not working?
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If those Haredim are anti-Zionist, don't serve in the army, and don't want any money going to the Israeli government, then why do they bother living in Israel? Why don't they stay in Brooklyn or someplace else in the galut?
Why do they knock the government when they're getting government support for not working?
Thats a good question.Although in Boro Park the religious landlord threw out that guy weiss head of the neuterei karta for not paying rent.The Weiss guy tok his landlord to court the judge threw weiss out.I wonder if he moved to Israel or back to Austria.The yeshiva in Austria wouldn't accept his kids.He took the Yeshiva to court in Austria because in Austria they pay for Religious school the Judge in Austria also threw the case out :::D
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they probably go to israel because they leach off the welfare system. they can use torah study as an excuse and live on welfare even tho they hate israel. kind of like how muslims will take your money and spit in your face.
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Rabbi Amsalem: Haredi Rabbis Must Be Heard
Chairman of the ‘Am Shalem’ (The Entire Nation, ed.) movement MK Rabbi Haim Amsalem lit Hanukkah candles at the home of Naama Margolis of Beit Shemesh, who was recently mistreated by extremists on her way to school. Rabbi Amsalem requests Haredi Rabbis castigate the violence of the extremists, to make it clear to the nation that this behavior is coming from a fringe radical minority.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/227906#.Tviw0FayDm4
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בס''ד
The hatred that I see on this thread toward Charedi Jews is the type of sinat chinam that caused our 2000 year exile. There is a conflict here between the news media and religious Jews, and you are siding with the news media in their campaign to discredit Torah Judaism.
I am not a Charedi Jew. I am a fervent Zionist. I have been condemned many times in my life by Charedi leaders. I have often been very critical of them myself, as we see in my latest video on the Satmar cult. But most Charedi Jews are not like Satmar. True, they are not like the Jewish heroes of Judea and Samaria who fight for the land of Israel, but they are still our brothers and sisters, they live in the Jewish homeland and they have large Jewish families which is vital to our survival.
When there is an organized media lynch taking place against religious Jews, to side with the media is the worst thing anyone could do. That is the sole issue here. The evil traitor media is trying to convince Israeli Jews that Torah Judaism is bad. This is part of a cultural war between Torah Jews and assimilated self-hating Jews. To support the self-hating media, the feminazis and the corrupt politicians against the religious Jews is atrocious.
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בס''ד
The hatred that I see on this thread toward Charedi Jews is the type of sinat chinam that caused our 2000 year exile. There is a conflict here between the news media and religious Jews, and you are siding with the news media in their campaign to discredit Torah Judaism.
I am not a Charedi Jew. I am a fervent Zionist. I have been condemned many times in my life by Charedi leaders. I have often been very critical of them myself, as we see in my latest video on the Satmar cult. But most Charedi Jews are not like Satmar. True, they are not like the Jewish heroes of Judea and Samaria who fight for the land of Israel, but they are still our brothers and sisters, they live in the Jewish homeland and they have large Jewish families which is vital to our survival.
When there is an organized media lynch taking place against religious Jews, to side with the media is the worst thing anyone could do. That is the sole issue here. The evil traitor media is trying to convince Israeli Jews that Torah Judaism is bad. This is part of a cultural war between Torah Jews and assimilated self-hating Jews. To support the self-hating media, the feminazis and the corrupt politicians against the religious Jews is atrocious.
I agree with you on this. I am ashamed to read the hatred of Charedie, who as we all know have their failings. But I think that the media has done an incredible job to discredit and make these religious Jews out to be the whipping boy.
Sure there are problems in their society, and they often are a burden on a lot of Jews in Israel.... But in a way I support them in their study of Torah.
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בס''ד
The hatred that I see on this thread toward Charedi Jews is the type of sinat chinam that caused our 2000 year exile.
When there is an organized media lynch taking place against religious Jews, to side with the media is the worst thing anyone could do. That is the sole issue here. The evil traitor media is trying to convince Israeli Jews that Torah Judaism is bad. This is part of a cultural war between Torah Jews and assimilated self-hating Jews. To support the self-hating media, the feminazis and the corrupt politicians against the religious Jews is atrocious.
Chaim, I don't think their were or is anyone here who is attacking all the haredim. In fact the point is the opposite. To make a distinction between the extremists in that society with the rest of Haredim and religious Jews as well. And no one (certainly not me) are in favor nor side with the hiloni media.
But why defend these people (specifically those who for example rise up and curse at little Jewish girls and intimidate the public)?
That is what both extremists (the leftists/media, and these fringe elements) want- they want to make it seem like this is Judaism vs. secularism. And people choose either this or that? This is the trick they have been playing for years and taking power unto themselves. Secular Jews become disgusted with these types of people and the media labeling the Religion in this light. What I am saying and thinking is to be pro active and show the true side of the Torah, while condemning these types of things and to say for what it is- against the Torah to do what they are doing.
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I don't understand how the Charedi are worse than typical Israeli Jews that are completely secular and completely brainwashed and always support the Bolshevik Israeli government. They might not be Kahanists but few people are. If the NWO media is taking a side you can better believe it's the wrong side.
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Also don't we advocate a Jewish- religious, Torah-Observant state? If people see and the media gets away with labeling (as they have) the Torah in negative light and these types of things as if representing the Torah, then more Jews would want to be against the Torah since they view and believe that these types of things will only grow and be encouraged instead. They will wrongly believe that a (True) Torah state will be a state run like the Taliban which is something furthest from the truth.
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בס''ד
The hatred that I see on this thread toward Charedi Jews is the type of sinat chinam that caused our 2000 year exile. There is a conflict here between the news media and religious Jews, and you are siding with the news media in their campaign to discredit Torah Judaism.
I am not a Charedi Jew. I am a fervent Zionist. I have been condemned many times in my life by Charedi leaders. I have often been very critical of them myself, as we see in my latest video on the Satmar cult. But most Charedi Jews are not like Satmar. True, they are not like the Jewish heroes of Judea and Samaria who fight for the land of Israel, but they are still our brothers and sisters, they live in the Jewish homeland and they have large Jewish families which is vital to our survival.
When there is an organized media lynch taking place against religious Jews, to side with the media is the worst thing anyone could do. That is the sole issue here. The evil traitor media is trying to convince Israeli Jews that Torah Judaism is bad. This is part of a cultural war between Torah Jews and assimilated self-hating Jews. To support the self-hating media, the feminazis and the corrupt politicians against the religious Jews is atrocious.
Chaim, may I paraphrase what you are trying to say? The media is taking an example of what took place and attributing it to all religious Jews. This is what we are angry about.
I think what other posters are saying isn't in disagreement with you. They are simply siting that some religious Jews such the one the media is making an example is not the type of extreme religiousity we should condone. There are certain things on the other spectrum that go too far too.
My suggestion to you is to clarify that point that while there is extremism that do come from some religious Jews and that it isn't your cup of tea, the media is taking one rare instance and making out all religious Jews as terrible. In fact it is the opposite. True Torah Jews respect women better than the majority of secular Jews
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If those Haredim are anti-Zionist, don't serve in the army, and don't want any money going to the Israeli government, then why do they bother living in Israel? Why don't they stay in Brooklyn or someplace else in the galut?
Why do they knock the government when they're getting government support for not working?
Because they are parasites. They are supposed to study in Yeshivas but really they are just bored and so they rather spend their time acting like hooligans.
Now I am referring to a small albeit vocal minority of so called "zealots" that don't represent most charedim in the least, neither Hasidim nor Litvaks. I happen to know some charedim and they are decent, gentle and polite people. The media tries to inflame religion wars and portray all charedim as rube vulgar misogynists. Virtually every news item about rabbis or religious people is negative and inflammatory, unless it some so called "rabbi" who condemns settlers and praises the leftist establishment.
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We live in the Matrix. Everyone is deceived. Every day is opposite day. If the NWO is telling us to think one way, it should be obvious that it's the wrong way.
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We live in the Matrix. Everyone is deceived. Every day is opposite day. If the NWO is telling us to think one way, it should be obvious that it's the wrong way.
I agree that this is the world we live in today. It is essential to detach from the matrix in order to see the reality of the situation. Detachment is also required to avoid the ills of rampant consumerism which we witnessed last week.
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I agree that this is the world we live in today. It is essential to detach from the matrix in order to see the reality of the situation. Detachment is also required to avoid the ills of rampant consumerism which we witnessed last week.
That rampant consumerism puts a great many people to work each year... Retailers claim a good part of their profits come from the holiday season... I think people would be far more ill if they joined the already overloaded ranks of the unemployed.
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Excellent point cjd. Is he saying it is wrong to buy Hanukkah gifts?
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That rampant consumerism puts a great many people to work each year... Retailers claim a good part of their profits come from the holiday season... I think people would be far more ill if they joined the already overloaded ranks of the unemployed.
Well I am not aware if you saw the 'Air Jordan' riots last week. I am sure that a lot of people made a lot of money... But I am not talking about seasonal demands. We all know that those who watch a lot of television are exposed to a lot of marketing, and there is social pressure to buy things for no logical reason. This is what marketing is about... I have a friend who is studying marketing, and my mothers father was an advertising executive.... I know about marketing.... And this is why I have detached from watching television and movies...
As I explained to my friend... I have what I need. I have enough clothes for work, and home, and for Shabbat, and I don't need to keep up with fashions. So people may think I'm a nerd, I don't wear my clothes to impress other people {an image which the tv and movies always enforce}. I don't have to worry about 'coveting' what other people have because I am happy with what I have.
I spent money this last week buying consumer electronics { a field I work in by the way }. I bought a new 10" Android tablet for a friend... But my point is that the media is capable of influencing a lot of people. As 'Mr Rose' here pointed out it is like the matrix. Those who subscribe to rampant consumerism will tire of what they have and they will always crave the latest item. I know someone who has a very capable iPhone 3 but they are already jonesing for the iPhone 4.... Why? Because they need to 'keep up with the Joness'.
I have a nice car because it is the car I loved when I was a kid. I don't want any other car and thus no amount of marketing is going to make me want to get another car. Why should the marketers always plant the idea that we are lacking when we already have everything we need?
We don't need disposable products in order to keep people working. Sometimes it seems like they are making things with pre-planned obsolesence because they want us to keep coming back for the newer items. Indeed I like the new Android tablets and the price has fallen which is why I gave this one as a gift. My android cost almost twice what I paid for last Friday.
I have detached from the 'Matrix' of the media and only get my news and media from the internet. Sure there are biased media sites and I avoid most of them {I have NEVER read Huffington Post, etc.}. This is what I am talking about...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ4E13cyL3A
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You should not serve material. Material should serve you.
So I have no fault for someone who buys nice things. However that material they buy should only serve him/her.
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You should not serve material. Material should serve you.
So I have no fault for someone who buys nice things. However that material they buy should only serve him/her.
Did you see those 'Air Jordan' riots? Someone did some incredible marketing to make people want them so badly, heck they are just sneakers...
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We live in the Matrix. Everyone is deceived. Every day is opposite day. If the NWO is telling us to think one way, it should be obvious that it's the wrong way.
What "Matrix" the movie?
Maybe they know what you think and how you think soo instead they are sometimes telling you to think one way in order for you to think otherwise which is what they wanted in the first place? Food for thought.
And about consumers- That is an individual issue, people should spend as they like is they can afford it. Heck what is it about people being in other ppls buisness? First some are too cheap, now some are consuming too much?
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Yes, I mean Matrix the movie and yes, consumerism is wrong--but at the same time, if there were no Christmas and Hanukkah shopping at all, don't you think it would harm the economy?
In any event, that shoe-craze was just ridiculous though.
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Yes, I mean Matrix the movie and yes, consumerism is wrong--but at the same time, if there were no Christmas and Hanukkah shopping at all, don't you think it would harm the economy?
Not sure if you were asking me that question, but I'm not against people shopping and spending $ (obviously if its not my $, but their own).
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......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ4E13cyL3A
wow, things like that make me look forward to idiocracy, that was really funny.
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Did you see those 'Air Jordan' riots? Someone did some incredible marketing to make people want them so badly, heck they are just sneakers...
Uh, Muman, those sneaker riots were not the fault of Nike's marketing and advertising people. It's all about ghetto blacks acting like ghetto blacks with their evil culture of violence if they don't get their way.
Tell me, have you seen any white people beating each other up over the latest iPads? I don't think so. If anything, they just patiently waited in line at the Apple store for their chance to buy one.
The fact of the matter is, people have free will. No one was holding a gun to those womens heads and telling them they had to fight each other. They chose to act like barbarians over a stupid pair of sneakers.
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Uh, Muman, those sneaker riots were not the fault of Nike's marketing and advertising people. It's all about ghetto blacks acting like ghetto blacks with their evil culture of violence if they don't get their way.
Tell me, have you seen any white people beating each other up over the latest iPads? I don't think so. If anything, they just patiently waited in line at the Apple store for their chance to buy one.
The fact of the matter is, people have free will. No one was holding a gun to those womens heads and telling them they had to fight each other. They chose to act like barbarians over a stupid pair of sneakers.
I was about to get to that... It is the same thing with the iPad fury. Do you really think that the device is that much better to cause people to line up for it and pay ridiculous amounts of money for? Sure I knew someone was going to point out who it was who was rioting in those videos.... Even my Mexican friend who I showed it to was aware who was rioting there...
But my point, which I hope someone can understand here, is that the problem is not placed squarely on those who rioted. I am placing the blame on those who marketed these sneakers... Remember these are not your 'K-mart special' sneakers... These are $180 a pair sneakers which can be resold on the net for $500 a pop... So you see that they mass marketed these sneakers.... We looked at the marketing which Air Jordan did by watching the commercials on You-Tube.... They are using the most basic marketing techniques and yet through only making so many sneakers the demand greatly outstripped the supply, and the media which doesn't care about the outcome eats this story up.
My point, which I have heard several rabbis discuss, is that consumerism and demand for the latest thing for the sake of just having it because others have it is stupid. If a person must constantly buy a wardrobe just because other people are wearing the current fashion is shallow. It is good to have what you want, and to have what you need, but you should be satisfied with the things you have.
I don't rush out to buy the latest phones even though my carrier constantly is giving me upgrade dollars. Why don't I? Because I am satisfied with the phone which I have. I am sure there will come a time I will want to upgrade but I will wait till that time and not just because I can.
Let me just say that I believe people should enjoy the things they buy if they can afford them. It is a problem when people over-spend just to have things that they don't need in order to appear like others. I sure would not stand in line for an iPod, nor would I stand for sneakers. And sure it is every ones choice what they do with their money.... But I just hope people are thankful for what they have...
I consider the 'Matrix' to be the big medias control on people through TV and Movies.... This is what brought up this subject..
PS: There is 'free will' so much as the environment we are in is pure. When we are inundated with messages which contradict moral behavior without any wisdom to resist it there is danger that society is barreling down the wrong tracks...
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I realize we are off-topic by now but I would like to add this insight from the Jewish writing 'Pirkie Avot/Wisdom of Fathers':
I thought about Mishnah 6 Perek 9 which is:
"Rabbi Yossi ben (son of) Kisma said: One time I was walking along the way and a certain man met me. He greeted me and I returned the greeting. He said to me: 'Rabbi, where are you from?' I responded: 'I am from a large city of scholars and scribes.' He said to me: 'Rabbi, would you be willing to dwell among us in our place, and I will give you hundreds of thousands of gold coins, precious stones and pearls?' I said to him: 'Even if you would give me all the silver, gold, precious stones, and pearls in the world, I would not dwell anywhere other than a place of Torah.' So too it was written in the Book of Psalms by David, King of Israel: 'The Torah of Your mouth is better to me than thousands of gold and silver [coins]' (119:72). And further, when a person departs this world neither his silver, gold, precious stones, nor pearls accompany him, but only his Torah study and good deeds, as it is written: 'When you walk it will guide you, when you lie down it will protect you, and when you arise it will speak for you' (Proverbs 6:22). 'When you walk it will guide you' -- in this world; 'when you lie down it will protect you' -- in the grave; 'and when you arise it will speak for you' -- in the World to Come. And it says: 'To Me is silver and gold says the L-rd of hosts' (Haggai 2:8)."
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-9.html
Buying the World to Come
By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld
Chapter 6, Mishna 9
The lesson of this week's mishna is fairly straightforward. Torah study and good deeds possess far greater intrinsic value than material wealth. R. Yossi would much prefer living his life immersed in Torah study than immersed in wealth. Our riches, belongings and portfolios will part company with us at the grave (if our portfolios even make it that far), leaving our souls none the better. Our Torah study and good deeds, however, are eternal; in fact, their true value will only truly be appreciated after our deaths, when they accompany us before our Creator.
The wording of our mishna, however, is not so straightforward -- and perhaps there is more to see than the simple lesson above. Presumably, R. Yossi is quoting an actual conversation he had with a stranger. If so, why upon being asked where he's from did he give such a quizzical response? Why didn't he answer the question posed: "Where are you from?" "I'm from Jew Town, U.S.A." If pressed further "What kind of place is that?", he might have answered: "It's a big city with lots of ultra-orthodox Jews." Why instead did R. Yossi immediately offer this unsolicited and rather affected response? ("Not only am I great, but I live and associate with great scholars alone.")
The questioner then spares no time. He is immediately willing to offer the rabbi exorbitant sums to lure him to his own town. It seems an unusual offer: Why is he so anxious to invite the rabbi if the whole concept of a single scholar -- let alone a large town of them -- seems so foreign to him?
Even further, however, why didn't R. Yossi take up the offer? The stranger wasn't asking him to refrain from his Torah study; he seemed to *want* a rabbi in his town. If so, why couldn't the rabbi take up the offer, begin living in comfort, and continue with his studies? Did he insist on living in poverty rather than wealth? Do not the Sages state, "A poor man is considered dead?" Or was he such a novice that he required a large Jewish infrastructure for his studies?
Even more difficult, why didn't R. Yossi take up the offer and go *teach* Torah? Wouldn't it have been equally worthy -- if not more worthy -- to go to a place lacking in Torah knowledge in order to spread the faith far and wide? Was R. Yossi planning to forever lock himself up in his own ivory tower, never venturing beyond the confines of his city of scholars? Wouldn't this have been a fantastic opportunity -- all expenses paid -- to spread his Torah knowledge to others, to the vast multitude of Jews less fortunate than he?
To truly understand the dialogue of our mishna, we must place ourselves in the shoes of the participants. What inspired the stranger -- friendly enough to be first to extend a greeting -- to ask R. Yossi where he came from? Clearly, he saw a person of unusual appearance, a man with a long beard, payes (sidelocks), long frock coat, black hat, etc. (I'm obviously giving the modern equivalent of our mishna's scenario -- but I'm sure the concept applied equally well back then. The man instantly recognized R. Yossi as a rabbi.) To him R. Yossi was an oddity, something out of a novel, not a real-life character. And he asked him, with sincere amusement: "Are you for real?" "Are there still real people like you nowadays, in the 21st century?" It was not confrontation which roused this friendly stranger to pose his question. He just could not fathom such an anachronism, such a quaint and antiquated figure walking the streets as a regular person. "Are people like you really found nowadays, in the modern world?"
R. Yossi could likely have talked himself out what most of us would have considered an awkward situation. Most of us do not like being noticed or standing out in a crowd. We go to great lengths to blend in with our surroundings, even if among polite and fully-respecting Gentiles. So R. Yossi might have easily been tempted to come up with some kind of excuse. ("Oh, we're doing a screening of 'Fiddler on the Roof' just outside town. I took a break to go out and look for a beer." Or: "Just brought the horse and buggy in from rural Pennsylvania for a monthly stock-up. I thankest thee for thine most gracious greetings!" (The latter approach was supposedly once used successfully by a Chassidic Jew.))
R. Yossi, however, held his ground. He felt no need for excuses or apologies. "I come from a big city where everyone resembles me." What did he mean to say? I'm not an anachronism. There is a whole city of people like me. We are real people, part of a vibrant and bustling metropolis, and very much a part of the "real" world. Is a city not "modern" or "real" if it doesn't have bars, pool halls, and blocks of ill-repute? So, just as affably as the questioner wondered out loud where such people exist today, R. Yossi gently but firmly asserted that such people with such lifestyles certainly do exist. They are alive and well, part of a thriving culture, and see no reason to "modernize" themselves in order to blend in.
The dialogue of our mishna continues. The stranger immediately offers the rabbi a coveted rabbinic post -- asking him to come join his community. No doubt he admired R. Yossi for his convictions -- perhaps even more so for proudly standing up to this friendly confrontation. And he made an offer no rabbi could refuse (so he thought). "We could use a man of your convictions in our temple. I'll get your nomination through the synagogue committee. No price is too high."
R. Yossi, however, rightly saw the fatal flaw of the stranger's words. He was talking the language of money, and money talks: "Nothing in life you can't buy. We'd like to have a rabbi like you. It will give our temple a touch of class, some old-fashioned authenticity. You name the price, and we'll meet it." No doubt, the stranger also talked another closely-related language, that of honor: "We'll be the talk of the town. We'll proudly sow off our "real" rabbi to the temple down the block. Our membership will skyrocket (so long, ahem, as the rabbi answers to the board and knows his place (and remembers who hired whom!))."
R. Yossi recognized, quite accurately, the language the stranger was talking. He wanted to buy Torah, to gain, through sheer purchasing power, a part of R. Yossi's greatness and convictions. This R. Yossi could not accept. One who humbly sits before the Sages may become a student of Torah. One who, possessing the financial means, sees the primacy of Torah study and wants to do his part can become a supporter of Torah. But if the money comes first -- is pursued and hoarded relentlessly -- and is subsequently used to "buy" Torah (or to buy pardons), this the rabbi would never accept. Such money was not worthy of supporting Torah. It had always been its own ends. It could not easily be translated into a means.
I once heard R. Zev Leff see this message in the wording of the stranger's request itself. He asked R. Yossi to "dwell among us in our place." The implication was not only to physically dwell in his city, but to dwell *among* them -- to be fully a part of their culture and society. The stranger wanted the rabbi to come down to their level and their standards. He showed not the slightest hint of willingness to change himself and to raise himself to the rabbi's greatness. This was because he was not looking for a rabbi to lead and inspire him to greater heights. He wanted to stay right where he was -- both physically and psychologically -- in a town of money and with his own personal riches and standard of living. He just wanted R. Yossi to come to him, giving his life a little rabbinic sanction, making the deal oh so sweet -- for both himself and the rabbi -- by means of his bottomless purse.
And again R. Yossi was not willing to accept such a deal, not for any amount of money. Just as the stranger showed no willingness to move up in life, so too was R. Yossi ill prepared to move down. And in this we have an important lesson. The Talmud (Sotah 21a) distinguishes between two individuals who want to support Torah study. The first embarks on his career from the start solely to support others in their Torah study. The second, however, pursues money for its own sake, and then afterwards attempts to buy his way into the World to Come by giving some of his money away. Regarding the latter, the Talmud applies the verse in Song of Songs (8:7) "If a man will give you all the wealth of his home for [your] love, utterly scorn him." As always, what is truly worthwhile in life can never be bought with money.
And the lesson is one which echoes until our times. To be sure, most people who amass fortunes do not do so initially in order to support Torah causes. We all seek our fortunes (most of us just not successfully). Yet the true question emerges when such a person decides to bestow his largess upon others less fortunate. Does he do so in order to expand himself and enhance his reputation even further? Is funding a Jewish institution a means of getting one's name inscribed on a building -- as well as lowering one's tax rate? Or is he giving charity because he recognizes the sanctity of Torah study and knows that money is only truly valuable if used towards such an ends. If money is still paramount in his life -- in every way -- he is attempting to buy his way into the World to Come -- and G-d does not accept bribes. If, however, the Torah is primary and his money becomes devoted to its service, then he transforms his riches, the very source of his complacency and physical prosperity, into something as sacred and eternal as the Torah itself.
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I realize that that article does not address the topic I was trying to express... It does express the idea that we should use our wealth to make the world a better Torah world. Which does tie into the original topic. We should be using our resources to educate the young people about morality and Jews about Torah.
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As I see it Muman, marketers are free to be as creative as they like in trying to sell their products. That doesn't mean lying. It's up to mature adults to distinguish between a want and a need. If it's a want, it should be something you can afford that gives you enjoyment and makes your life easier.
As for the iPads, I don't know how good or bad those tablets are. Being a Linux woman and a fan of open source software, I was never ever a Mac enthusiast.
So if people want to wait on line to buy iPads, I don't care. Waiting on line is not the same as beating someone up.
As for those Nike sneakers, I place the blame squarely on the "women" who fought each other like animals. Nowhere else. Creating a limited supply of a product is not a new thing by any means. Marketers do it all the time. Take for example the Missoni for Target line of clothing and housewares. That stuff sold out the very first day it came out. And I have yet to hear of women beating each other up over those pieces.
Same thing with high end designer clothing. Have you ever heard of a bunch of young socialites going at each other over a Gucci dress? I doubt it.
Anway Muman, I do agree with you that consumerism, just for the sake of "keeping up with the Joneses" is stupid. In the long run, it doesn't make a person any happier or better. Plus, if it was bought on credit, it only creates more money headaches.
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בס''ד
The hatred that I see on this thread toward Charedi Jews is the type of sinat chinam that caused our 2000 year exile.
I can only speak for my own comments, but if this refers to anything I said, this could not be farther from the truth. Haredim are NOT the problem here. It's a small faction within them that is attacking everyone, including other haredim!
There is a conflict here between the news media and religious Jews, and you are siding with the news media in their campaign to discredit Torah Judaism.
Unless you have some specific item to comment on in which the news media reported something inaccurately, I really don't care what the media says, and in my opinion they are irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the media. There is a small group of thugs in ramat bet shemesh who literally "occupied" and ransacked a dati leumi school that was opening up because they didn't want it located there. Later on, they cursed and yelled at little girls on their way out of school while standing in a group along the sidewalk where the girls walk home. This caused parents and volunteers to have to escort the girls home in the ensuing days since they were reporting being scared and intimidated by shouts and jeers. In the past, this same group of thugs has attacked people physically in ramat bet shemesh for apparently not being frum enough in their eyes. This is not something made up by the media. And they are screaming at little girls calling them prutza. The girls tell their parents what happened to them when they come home crying. A local dati leumi shul organized a group to protect the girls on their way home. That is not a media creation. But this is what charedim do? Hardly. By defending this group of thugs and saying that we are attacking charedim, you are actually defaming charedim by suggesting that all charedim act this way or condone it. Far from it. Most haredim, like any reasonable person, would think this behavior by these thugs is sick.
I am not a Charedi Jew. I am a fervent Zionist. I have been condemned many times in my life by Charedi leaders. I have often been very critical of them myself, as we see in my latest video on the Satmar cult. But most Charedi Jews are not like Satmar. True, they are not like the Jewish heroes of Judea and Samaria who fight for the land of Israel, but they are still our brothers and sisters, they live in the Jewish homeland and they have large Jewish families which is vital to our survival.
I agree 100%
When there is an organized media lynch taking place against religious Jews, to side with the media is the worst thing anyone could do. That is the sole issue here.
I have not "sided with the media." If the media happens to report some facts that are actually accurate because they have an agenda and axe to grind, it does not make those facts go away by virtue of an evil entity reporting on them. So whatever was reported inaccurately, you can point out specifically. Otherwise, I am not relying on media reports to know what is happening in Beth Shemesh. And in fact, what I said about these young thugs disobeying their rebbes by throwing rocks on Shabbat when specifically instructed not to by the ravs in RBS, was told to me by haredim I know there.
The evil traitor media is trying to convince Israeli Jews that Torah Judaism is bad. This is part of a cultural war between Torah Jews and assimilated self-hating Jews. To support the self-hating media, the feminazis and the corrupt politicians against the religious Jews is atrocious.
What some group of so-called "Zealots" is doing in RBS, IS bad. But it is not Torah Judaism! And most adherents of Torah Judaism want nothing to do with this group and are actually victims of it.
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I don't understand how the Charedi are worse than typical Israeli Jews that are completely secular and completely brainwashed and always support the Bolshevik Israeli government. They might not be Kahanists but few people are. If the NWO media is taking a side you can better believe it's the wrong side.
I really hope no one in this thread would think bad about charedim just because of some out of control thugs in RBS, and that is exactly one of the reasons why getting them under control is so important. They are not what the vast majority of haredim (chassidic and litvak) are like.
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KWRBT,
Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...
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KWRBT,
Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...
I think that is your problem. You are making it about the reporters vs. the Haredim, when in fact that is not the true issue. Way before the reporters and police got involved their were problems with these types of people. Only now is it being discussed publicly and getting the publicity it is, (perhaps for some (like Livnis) personal political ends) , BUT that is not the issue. We as a society should be able to get together and condemn people who are plainly wrong, Because THAT IS the issue. People sidetracking the issues and making this religion vs. state are actually causing the problems even more. You as an observant Jew (as am I- well I try), and as a Haredi (if you consider yourself that) should be the one protesting and speaking up against them to make it clear that they do not represent you. Those Haredim who sit quietly (and I mean mainly the leadership who's task it is to lead and to say what is needed for society) are actually helping those who are stereotyping them. and frankly I am very disappointed by most of the Haredi leadership for yett again remaining silent, and instead of dealing with the thugs only get defensive against the media reporting on them.
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I think that is your problem. You are making it about the reporters vs. the Haredim, when in fact that is not the true issue. Way before the reporters and police got involved their were problems with these types of people. Only now is it being discussed publicly and getting the publicity it is, (perhaps for some (like Livnis) personal political ends) , BUT that is not the issue. We as a society should be able to get together and condemn people who are plainly wrong, Because THAT IS the issue. People sidetracking the issues and making this religion vs. state are actually causing the problems even more. You as an observant Jew (as am I- well I try), and as a Haredi (if you consider yourself that) should be the one protesting and speaking up against them to make it clear that they do not represent you. Those Haredim who sit quietly (and I mean mainly the leadership who's task it is to lead and to say what is needed for society) are actually helping those who are stereotyping them. and frankly I am very disappointed by most of the Haredi leadership for yett again remaining silent, and instead of dealing with the thugs only get defensive against the media reporting on them.
I am not Charedie, BTW.... I try to keep like Chassidim but I am pretty much a Baal Teshuva who still has a long way to go to complete observance.
I am certainly against those who use the Torah for their own glorification. I don't support those who spit on young girls. If I have not said that already let me clearly state that I don't support what is alleged to happen. Personally I don't like this whole issue because it has the capacity to cause more rifts in the religious Jewish people.
But you know {as you indicated} that the issue goes a lot deeper than this. On the heels of the issue concerning the officers being reprimanded for leaving during a woman singing.... The way they were intimidated and shamed before the world.... That is a very sad state to live in where your religious freedoms are trampled in the name of 'modernity'.
I wish that we can find some peace at the end of this story...
I found this on Carl in Jerusalems blog 'IsraelMatzav':
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LTPqqtVOVbg/TvnbmKlG7eI/AAAAAAAAjvI/wrTSxRiWHZs/s400/Religious%2Bcoercion.jpg)
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Muman- well exactly! We should be able to independently condemn those who attack religious girls school in the name of "Judaism" with the harshest of ways.
And when the issue of women singing in the army comes up condemn those who are telling (and forcing) Torah observant Jews (men) to remain in these ceremonies where women sing, in the harshest ways as well.
But these are separate issues. And in both cases people who are doing wrong should be condemned. These issues do not need to be and should not be put together and in fact its the criminals who are trying to tie these types of things into one.
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Muman- well exactly! We should be able to independently condemn those who attack religious girls school in the name of "Judaism" with the harshest of ways.
And when the issue of women singing in the army comes up condemn those who are telling (and forcing) Torah observant Jews (men) to remain in these ceremonies where women sing, in the harshest ways as well.
But these are separate issues. And in both cases people who are doing wrong should be condemned. These issues do not need to be and should not be put together and in fact its the criminals who are trying to tie these types of things into one.
Interesting... But what is the solution? Certainly we condemn those who misrepresent the Torah. But what the media is going to do will be much worse... I am not giving either side favoritism but the loser will be the Jewish customs...
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KWRBT,
Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...
I'm going to assume that some might have some respect for "modern orthodox".
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Interesting... But what is the solution? Certainly we condemn those who misrepresent the Torah. But what the media is going to do will be much worse... I am not giving either side favoritism but the loser will be the Jewish customs...
The solution is to fight all the oppressors in the proper way. If one for example lives in Beit Shemesh and has children in school and also serves in the IDF what he should do?- When taking his kids to school fight those oppressors cursing at his kids, either physically or other ways (I would do it physically, but I can understand if someone does it other way). then when going to the IDF when seeing those who break Halacha and impose their way upon this person to also protest them- for example when having a women sing, to get up and leave the ceremony even against the orders of the IDF or any other organization. In any case the solution is to do the right thing.
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KWRBT,
Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...
What reporters?
BTW, did you even read my posts in full? I said specifically I am not relying on media reports to know what is happening in Beth Shemesh. It is not the media making things up. If they happen to report some of the things I already know are happening, fine, it's really irrelevant. If you can point to something specifically that was reported inaccurately, then we can discuss that, and it's one more example of the sick evil of the Israeli media. But that's REALLY NOT THE ISSUE HERE.
Young girls were harrassed on their way home from school by a bunch of thugs who believe that a dati leumi (national religious/religious zionist) school does not belong in RBS in the location it was built. There is nothing sicker than these thugs, and whether the media points that out or not does not matter to me. Even a broken watch can be accurate sometimes. The media should burn in hell along with these so-called "zealots"
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who are these haredi extremist to pass judgment on who is more jewish, one jew or another?
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What reporters?
BTW, did you even read my posts in full? I said specifically I am not relying on media reports to know what is happening in Beth Shemesh. It is not the media making things up. If they happen to report some of the things I already know are happening, fine, it's really irrelevant. If you can point to something specifically that was reported inaccurately, then we can discuss that, and it's one more example of the sick evil of the Israeli media. But that's REALLY NOT THE ISSUE HERE.
Young girls were harrassed on their way home from school by a bunch of thugs who believe that a dati leumi (national religious/religious zionist) school does not belong in RBS in the location it was built. There is nothing sicker than these thugs, and whether the media points that out or not does not matter to me. Even a broken watch can be accurate sometimes. The media should burn in hell along with these so-called "zealots"
This event is all over Google.news which I use to get my news...
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This event is all over Google.news which I use to get my news...
So let me ask you, does that make it untrue, by definition, because it appeared on google.news?
What I find "untrue" is the additional commentary being added by the journalists who try to paint Judaism and Jews negatively. But facts being reported are indisputable. And a person should be able to discern what is a fact, an event that took place, vs. what is opinion/commentary/editorial/so-called "analysis" being added in by the journalist. You are certainly capable of this.
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So let me ask you, does that make it untrue, by definition, because it appeared on google.news?
What I find "untrue" is the additional commentary being added by the journalists who try to paint Judaism and Jews negatively. But facts being reported are indisputable. And a person should be able to discern what is a fact, an event that took place, vs. what is opinion/commentary/editorial/so-called "analysis" being added in by the journalist. You are certainly capable of this.
We must never forget: be kind to the kind and cruel to the cruel.
Remember what happened with alon levy ysv and what he did to that little boy. We condemn evil behavior even if a Jew were to do that.