Author Topic: What Judaism is not. (Read 7155 times)

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **on:** December 25, 2011, 10:33:09 PM »

Harassment of little religious Jewish girls by soo called "zealots".

Violating Shabbat, standing with the enemies of Israel, laughing and having a good time when a Muslim is praising Hitler telling you how great Hitler was and how we need another Hitler ! And doing this in the name of the Torah and Judaism !

The Sicariim want Or Hachaim to stop selling English language books and to stop selling books about Orthodox Zionism or books written by Orthodox Zionists.

their are other such incidents. I believe it should be the Religious and the Haredim who are in the front fighting such people since they are their main targets and to clearly show the public what Judaism is and what it is not!

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #1 on:** December 25, 2011, 10:35:44 PM »

http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/

This Rav leads (or at least writes about) a lot of fights against such extremists who do things against the Torah in the name of the Torah. It is definitely proper to fight and oppose them, just as it is proper to fight and oppose the leftists as well.

Chaim Ben Pesach · « **Reply #2 on:** December 25, 2011, 10:53:29 PM »

בס''ד

Your first video shows a Jewish woman deliberately walking up to Charedi Jews to provoke them. This woman is an animal. She is deliberately trying to cause conflict between Jews.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #3 on:** December 25, 2011, 10:58:35 PM »

With all due respect I hope you take your comment back (as I'm sure you are mistaken in this incident). I think I posted the wrong video as well (and this is just a series of them with the school incident).
The pathway is for everyone, these "zealots" were screaming at little Jewish girls who by the way were and are dressed properly. They are standing outside a Jewish school screaming "shiksa" and words like slut and other such things. I think she is trying to clear the path soo her daughter can go to school! Those ppl are the real animals for sure (and their were other religious Jews and "Haredim" as well protesting against them when this was happening).

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #4 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:01:34 PM »

This is the video I should have posted (with the first description).

Meerkat · « **Reply #5 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:05:56 PM »

on the 1st video i can't comment one way or the other, cuz i understood none of it through the shouting.

all i understood the haredim shouting "tistalku mi'po" (get out of here) and then the cop at about 3:00 said "film all you want but stay back here". context please

comment directed at "Video #1 of the problems in Beit Shemesh 2011-09-06"

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #6 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:06:45 PM »

Had Rav Kahane been alive today I believe he would have given them a good beating and lesson. If I was a father of one of those kids and I had them screaming at my daughter like that I would like to think that I would punch them in the face or throw a rock at them or something and not just take this harassment.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #7 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:09:38 PM »

Quote from: Meerkat on December 25, 2011, 11:05:56 PM

on the 1st video i can't comment one way or the other, cuz i understood none of it through the shouting.

all i understood the haredim shouting "tistalku mi'po" (get out of here) and then the cop at about 3:00 said "film all you want but stay back here". context please

comment directed at "Video #1 of the problems in Beit Shemesh 2011-09-06"

Yea that was my mistake, because that video is just the beginning of a series of video's and I didn't re look at it now (well I did afterwards). But seeing the whole context (and the recent video on this topic, the last one) one clearly see what is going on.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:24:20 PM »

Quote from: Meerkat on December 25, 2011, 11:05:56 PM

on the 1st video i can't comment one way or the other, cuz i understood none of it through the shouting.

all i understood the haredim shouting "tistalku mi'po" (get out of here) and then the cop at about 3:00 said "film all you want but stay back here". context please

That is the problem. Their were and are what you would call "Haredim" against them (besides the Religious Zionists who were clearly their target). You see them and assume everyone which is what the leftists want. (If you request I can find video of the Rabbi from mystical paths (very "Haredi" there protesting these people as well) besides him writing about it in his blogg.

Also another problem is the fact that a small group of siccarim are able to make such negative impart upon society. Why should people be scared of them? Why are the Religious Zionists even begging the police to come and help them. Had each of those parents picken up a rock and hurled it at them the problem would have been much less and solved quickly.

Chaim Ben Pesach · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:26:06 PM »

בס''ד

Where were they screaming at the girls? The girls walked through and no one screamed at them. I don't know what these Charedim were protesting but it was not these girls because the girls were dressed properly according to halacha. The guy who is sarcastically commenting on the video is full of baloney.

In the first video that you brought, a woman who was not dressed according to halacha (her sleeves did not cover up to her elbows) deliberately walked into this group of Charedim and stood there facing them provocatively and smiling. This was an intentional provocation. The Charedim responded by covering their faces and turning away.

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:33:05 PM »

What's the point of these videos?

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:41:29 PM »

Quote from: Chaim Ben Pesach on December 25, 2011, 11:26:06 PM

בס''ד

Where were they screaming at the girls? The girls walked through and no one screamed at them. I don't know what these Charedim were protesting but it was not these girls because the girls were dressed properly according to halacha. The guy who is sarcastically commenting on the video is full of baloney.

In the first video that you brought, a woman who was not dressed according to halacha (her sleeves did not cover up to her elbows) deliberately walked into this group of Charedim and stood there facing them provocatively and smiling. This was an intentional provocation. The Charedim responded by covering their faces and turning away.

I have been reading this at the time of the incidents and partly here it is from the Rav:
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/09/terrorism-in-bet-shemesh.html
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/09/bet-shemesh-update.html

Also another video (with screams of Shiksa and Sheigetz on little Jewish girls)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U-hDCWjcaZg#!

Here is an interview with Rav from mystical paths who is against them (I believe he is Breslov Rabbi) where they describe what they are protesting.

, Also mind you, most of these "protests" are made against the Religious-Zionists and the Haredi community. They want to intimidate and control the public to conform to their standards and their control.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #12 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:48:15 PM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on December 25, 2011, 11:33:05 PM

What's the point of these videos?

To show and contrast the fanaticism which they call Torah-Judaism, and then to contrast it with real Torah and Judaism and what it represents and does. Perhaps I will open another thread as well for that.
Isn't it important to make a distinction between them and real Judaism, and not have the media label and cram all religious Jews together as if they (these soo called "zealots" ) represent our Jewish values.
I also think that their are regular Jews who become discouraged and look down upon Judaism and religious Jews as a whole when they see these people and have the media associate Judaism with them! The Torah observant should be defining and teaching what Judaism exactly is.
Besides the fact that these people should be fought against.

muman613 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:54:18 PM »

I understand protesting against those who violate Shabbat by driving in Jerusalem. But it should never get physical. I also understand that if a Jew wants to be able to ride the bus without dealing with women he should be able to. I understand issues of modesty while I don't live by such strict standards as avoiding all contact. I do attempt to keep the laws of Yichud by avoiding being behind closed doors with a woman who is forbidden. I also avoid physical contact if I can.... But I respect those who can avoid any such contact... So I defend their right to live in such a way...

But I also am against those who are so zealous that it leads them to violate the Torah in their protest. There is no excuse for such acts and it makes the entire Torah less significant in the eyes of the Jewish people.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #14 on:** December 25, 2011, 11:57:23 PM »

Quote from: muman613 on December 25, 2011, 11:54:18 PM

But I also am against those who are so zealous that it leads them to violate the Torah in their protest. There is no excuse for such acts and it makes the entire Torah less significant in the eyes of the Jewish people.

Thank you, beautifully said.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #15 on:** December 26, 2011, 12:12:04 AM »

Also their is another problem. When its not the religious Jews standing up to these things, these injustices and problems, then it will be the people in haaretz who take up these causes taking with them the Jewish masses and many times creating larger problems. For example the issue with women who cannot get their divorce papers from certain men. When Beit Din does not do what is necessary and suggests like like extortion it is the hellinists who come in and try to "change the situation" and show themselves to be the saviors. If this issue is not solved, properly, Jewishly, then the Hellinists could take over the institution of marriage and even create a greater problem and rift within Israeli society where some woul be able to marry some others and not all Jews in Israel. These (and many issues, including Zionism) the religious should take change and should make the proper changes (actually Halahic rules) needed in order to better society without having the secular courts and secularists coming in and taking the credit.

edu · « **Reply #16 on:** December 26, 2011, 01:54:56 AM »

A Question to Tag-MahirTzedek you said:

Quote

When Beit Din does not do what is necessary and suggests like like extortion it is the hellinists who come in and try to "change the situation" and show themselves to be the saviors.

Who do you mean by Beit Din {Jewish Court}?
For example, the state religious courts, give some power to political parties that deny the Divine Revelation of the Torah at Sinai, a say at who is appointed to the state religious court. Therefore if a Rabbi, for example, is too right-wing, he will be denied a high position in those courts.
Other courts, have other problems, where they sift out from the outset, those that don't 100% conform to their dress or societal norms, or come from the wrong families, etc.
You generally support, Rabbi Bar Hayyim. Try to think about it. Which establishment Beit Din that you know of would really allow, Rabbi Bar Hayyim to get to a real position of authority?

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #17 on:** December 26, 2011, 02:20:20 AM »

Quote from: Chaim Ben Pesach on December 25, 2011, 10:53:29 PM

בס''ד

Your first video shows a Jewish woman deliberately walking up to Charedi Jews to provoke them. This woman is an animal. She is deliberately trying to cause conflict between Jews.

You're missing the backstory. These guys were terrorizing little girls as they were walking home from school. Indeed the woman and man went with a camera to confront the scumbags!

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #18 on:** December 26, 2011, 02:26:13 AM »

Quote from: Chaim Ben Pesach on December 25, 2011, 11:26:06 PM

בס''ד

Where were they screaming at the girls? The girls walked through and no one screamed at them. I don't know what these Charedim were protesting but it was not these girls because the girls were dressed properly according to halacha. The guy who is sarcastically commenting on the video is full of baloney.

In the first video that you brought, a woman who was not dressed according to halacha (her sleeves did not cover up to her elbows) deliberately walked into this group of Charedim and stood there facing them provocatively and smiling. This was an intentional provocation. The Charedim responded by covering their faces and turning away.

It seems you are not aware of what goes on in ramat bet shemesh. It does not matter that the school girls are dressed according to the standards of tzniut. These guys have their own standards they made up independent of the halacha. They protest based on their own rules. They indeed shouted down little girls on their way from school. They spit at religious zionist kids too. Many other haredim think what they are doing is wrong. It has been this way for a long time in ramat bet shemesh. For example the ravs tell them do not throw rocks on shabbas, but they did anyway. These videos are a response to their madness. Painting them as victims is very inaccurate.

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #19 on:** December 26, 2011, 02:30:16 AM »

Quote from: edu on December 26, 2011, 01:54:56 AM

A Question to Tag-MahirTzedek you said: Who do you mean by Beit Din {Jewish Court}?
For example, the state religious courts, give some power to political parties that deny the Divine Revelation of the Torah at Sinai, a say at who is appointed to the state religious court. Therefore if a Rabbi, for example, is too right-wing, he will be denied a high position in those courts.
Other courts, have other problems, where they sift out from the outset, those that don't 100% conform to their dress or societal norms, or come from the wrong families, etc.
You generally support, Rabbi Bar Hayyim. Try to think about it. Which establishment Beit Din that you know of would really allow, Rabbi Bar Hayyim to get to a real position of authority?

Rav bar hayim refuses to serve on a so called "bet din" that gets a salary from the israeli govt and is beholden to their demands.

muman613 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 26, 2011, 03:55:36 AM »

I think there was a feminist provocation recently with a woman who has been called the 'Rosa Parks' of Israeli bus transport.... I think she intentionally made a scene in order to draw attention to this issue, with feminist goals... I do not support such propaganda...

cjd · « **Reply #21 on:** December 26, 2011, 05:18:12 AM »

Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 26, 2011, 02:20:20 AM

You're missing the backstory. These guys were terrorizing little girls as they were walking home from school. Indeed the woman and man went with a camera to confront the scumbags!

Horrible videos.... Doesn't anyone work there? Whatever the back story is the picture put out by the videos shows Jews being hostile to fellow Jews... Not a good picture from an outsiders viewpoint.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #22 on:** December 26, 2011, 09:43:49 AM »

Quote from: muman613 on December 26, 2011, 03:55:36 AM

I think there was a feminist provocation recently with a woman who has been called the 'Rosa Parks' of Israeli bus transport.... I think she intentionally made a scene in order to draw attention to this issue, with feminist goals... I do not support such propaganda...

I do not know too much about this, but from the little I know I believe the lady was/is Haredi herself. We cant assume that she intentionally made a scene or anything like that, and in my opinion this assumption itself is problematic.
You cant claim something to be a provocation without proper evidence, either way what right does it give for those "provoked" to behave in the way they did?

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #23 on:** December 26, 2011, 09:47:46 AM »

Quote from: edu on December 26, 2011, 01:54:56 AM

A Question to Tag-MahirTzedek you said: Who do you mean by Beit Din {Jewish Court}?
For example, the state religious courts, give some power to political parties that deny the Divine Revelation of the Torah at Sinai, a say at who is appointed to the state religious court. Therefore if a Rabbi, for example, is too right-wing, he will be denied a high position in those courts.
Other courts, have other problems, where they sift out from the outset, those that don't 100% conform to their dress or societal norms, or come from the wrong families, etc.
You generally support, Rabbi Bar Hayyim. Try to think about it. Which establishment Beit Din that you know of would really allow, Rabbi Bar Hayyim to get to a real position of authority?

I agree and I know this as well. But either way Rav Bar Hayim himself was talking about Beit Dinim following Halahic rules and for their a need for them to take care of issues such as releasing agunot (women who don't live with their husbands, yett cant remarry since they dont have the divorce papers, soo they are in limbo) from their position. And for this issue not to be resolved by the Hilonim instead because by the Beit Dinim not making anything the Hilonim can and then create a larger problem.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Rabbincial%20courts%20-%20do%20they%20function%20according%20to%20halachaD.mp3

(You can skip the beginning).

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #24 on:** December 26, 2011, 10:30:11 AM »

Quote from: muman613 on December 26, 2011, 03:55:36 AM

I think there was a feminist provocation recently with a woman who has been called the 'Rosa Parks' of Israeli bus transport.... I think she intentionally made a scene in order to draw attention to this issue, with feminist goals... I do not support such propaganda...

But that has nothing to do with this.

8 year old girls required to be escorted home from school while lazy bums with no jobs yell "prutza" at them? Or, one of the things that happened before this, these vagrants break into the school and destroy property inside and then refuse to leave because they don't want a dati leumi school to go up in that spot? These clowns are seriously deranged.