JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on December 29, 2011, 12:51:05 PM
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This is for everyone who thinks there is anything legitimate at all behind the anti-Charedim attacks of the past couple of weeks. Will you all still believe that after reading this? Look at what the NWO is saying right this moment:
Israel's Blinders On Inequality Hurt Women And Arabs
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-blinders-inequality-094500922.html
Israel’s Blinders on Inequality
By Peter Beinart | The Daily Beast – 7 hrs ago
Since the Gaza war in early 2009, Israel has largely enjoyed a respite from Arab and Palestinian violence. And as a result, Israeli Jews have been liberated to focus on their other great enemy: each other.
The first sign was the social protests that erupted this summer, protests in which Jewish Israelis took to the streets to denounce not Hamas or Iran or Mahmoud Abbas, but the oligarchs who have gobbled up much of their nation’s wealth. The second sign came this week, when 10,000 Israelis demonstrated in the city of Beit Shemesh against the efforts of ultra-Orthodox Jews to consign Jewish women to second-class citizenship in the Jewish state.
Ultra-Orthodox (or haredi) Judaism—it can never be stressed too often—is not Judaism as it was practiced in centuries past. Traditional Judaism was fluid, diverse and accommodated itself to the practical requirements of the day. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, by contrast, is a modern creation, born out of terror and hatred of the Enlightenment, which in the 19th century seduced many previously cloistered European Jews. Although ultra-Orthodox Jews claim to reject religious innovation, ultra-Orthodoxy is constantly innovating because it is based, above all, on the rejection of secular values. And since secular values change, ultra-Orthodoxy does too.
In recent decades, perhaps the biggest innovation in secular Jewish life, both in Israel and the Diaspora, has been the increasing emancipation of women. And so, like their counterparts in the Muslim and Christian worlds, ultra-Orthodox Jews have responded with increasingly aggressive efforts to subjugate women in public life.
Decades ago, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, perhaps the 20th century’s greatest interpreter of Jewish law, said it was permissible for men and women to ride the subway together, even if crowded conditions forced them into physical contact. Yet in Israel today, ultra-Orthodox Jews increasingly demand segregated buses, sidewalks, and public events. Feinstein acknowledged that standards of female dress would differ by community. A man, he argued, could not force his wife to cover her hair in a manner different from that of her mother. And yet in Beit Shemesh, haredi thugs taunted and assaulted an 8-year old girl because her dress conformed only to modern Orthodox and not ultra-Orthodox standards of modesty.
The good news is that Israelis are taking to the streets to fight this moral depravity. And when it comes to the struggle against ultra-Orthodox misogyny, American Jewish leaders feel far more emboldened to criticize Israeli policy than they do on the issue of Palestinian rights.
The bad news is that many Israeli and American Jewish opponents of ultra-Orthodox coercion do not recognize that the struggle for women’s rights and the struggle for Arab rights are inextricably linked. They are linked because ultra-Orthodox coercion stems in large part from ultra-Orthodox control of key ministries in the Israeli government. Israeli prime ministers give the ultra-Orthodox control over these ministries in return for the Knesset votes that keep them in power.
And why must Israeli prime ministers include ultra-Orthodox parties in their governments? In large measure, because they will not include Israel’s Arab parties. Israel’s Arab citizens (those within Israel’s 1967 borders) can vote and elect representatives to the Knesset. But by tradition, an Israeli government cannot rely on Arab parties to stay in power. It must enjoy a Jewish majority in the Knesset. Some justify this tradition by noting that the political parties favored by Israeli Arabs are non-Zionist: they wish Israel was not a Jewish state. But, as it happens, some of the ultra-Orthodox parties that have sat in Israeli governments are non-Zionist too, since many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that the creation of a Jewish state should await the messiah.
What gives the ultra-Orthodox the ability to oppress women, in other words, is partly a political system in which Israel’s Arab citizens are largely barred from power. What the protesters in Beit Shemesh and their supporters in the United States need to remember is the fundamental interconnectedness of equal citizenship. When you deny it to one group, you produce ripple effects that undermine the equality of others as well. Israel’s declaration of independence promises “complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of race, religion and sex.” For Israel to fulfill that promise to its female citizens, it must start fulfilling it to its Arab ones as well.
Now--I don't know what really happened in the original incident, but wasn't the line that I bolded basically an admission that the alleged girl in question was not halachically dressed and was taunting the Charedim, or being put up to do so?
Axl Rose
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This is for everyone who thinks there is anything legitimate at all behind the anti-Charedim attacks of the past couple of weeks. Will you all still believe that after reading this? Look at what the NWO is saying right this moment:
Israel's Blinders On Inequality Hurt Women And Arabs
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-blinders-inequality-094500922.html
Now--I don't know what really happened in the original incident, but wasn't the line that I bolded basically an admission that the alleged girl in question was not halachically dressed and was taunting the Charedim, or being put up to do so?
Axl Rose
It's not the point what that girl dresses or even that someone allegedly spit on her. The main issue now is that the media is trying to create a lynchmob against charedim, all charedim.
They portray on the news items a charedi who called a female soldier who deliberately provoked him on a bus "a prostitute", as a violent attacker and sex offender. He has also been arrested and charged with sexual harassment and other offenses.
The truth is so far away from what they report it's almost unbelievable how many people fall for their manipulations and deceits.
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because her dress conformed only to modern Orthodox and not ultra-Orthodox standards of modesty.
Now--I don't know what really happened in the original incident, but wasn't the line that I bolded basically an admission that the alleged girl in question was not halachically dressed and was taunting the Charedim, or being put up to do so?
Axl Rose
you do realize that chaim is a religious zionist, which is very similar to modern orthodoxy (correct me if im wrong).
regarding her taunting them (not sure if she did do that), if she did to that, shes 8, she doesnt know much better.
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There are Arab children as young as two or three that hate Jews--are they off the hook? It is entirely possible that she was taunting them. Chaim has said that the Charedim have been taunted. It's also very possible that she was put up to taunting them.
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Peter Beinart is a leftist Jew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Beinart
In a recent essay, Beinart has argued that the tensions between liberalism and Zionism in the U.S. may tear the two historically-linked concepts apart.[9]
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How come I'm not surprised? I assumed at first that he is probably a German anti-Semite but sadly... your explanation makes perfect sense. With these kinds of Jews who needs the Arabs and Ron Nazi Paul?
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Now--I don't know what really happened in the original incident, but wasn't the line that I bolded basically an admission that the alleged girl in question was not halachically dressed and was taunting the Charedim, or being put up to do so?
Axl Rose
you do realize that chaim is a religious zionist, which is very similar to modern orthodoxy (correct me if im wrong).
regarding her taunting them (not sure if she did do that), if she did to that, shes 8, she doesnt know much better.
I think about taunting it was someone else they were talking about (the soldier). And no I am almost certain she wasn't taunting anyone.
Also i don't think she is "modern Orthodox". I think she and the people there mostly are National Religious.
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Again I think their is no point and you will only make yourself look foolish by defending the one's who spitt at girls. On the other hand, if you defend and fight against the leftists and media attacking all and most of the Haredim, that is a just thing to do.
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Chaim has said that the so-called spitting incident was blown vastly out of proportion, and quite possibly provoked. We may never know what really happened, but I'm sure not accepting the NWO's version of events.
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Chaim has said that the so-called spitting incident was blown vastly out of proportion, and quite possibly provoked. We may never know what really happened, but I'm sure not accepting the NWO's version of events.
Dude, again I didn't get the news about this yesterday or during this week when the media only started mentioning this.
We can and should be against what happened. With that said it is also a great opportunity to show the media bias against Haredim and religious Jews in Israel in painting a whole community responsible for the actions of a very few. But denying what happened will only s**** yourself and what we stand for. And that is justice.
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I honestly didn't understand what you meant by that. What is "justice" in this case? I think justice would be exposing that those Charedim were provoked if that indeed was the case, which it likely was.
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I honestly didn't understand what you meant by that. What is "justice" in this case? I think justice would be exposing that those Charedim were provoked if that indeed was the case, which it likely was.
Honestly , I'm not going to continue with this.
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Chaim disagrees with you, that's all I have to say.
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Now--I don't know what really happened in the original incident, but wasn't the line that I bolded basically an admission that the alleged girl in question was not halachically dressed and was taunting the Charedim, or being put up to do so?
Um, no. Not at all. But the guy you quoted sounds like a real clown if that helps.
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Why do you seem to think it's okay for children to taunt religious Jews?
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Now--I don't know what really happened in the original incident, but wasn't the line that I bolded basically an admission that the alleged girl in question was not halachically dressed and was taunting the Charedim, or being put up to do so?
Axl Rose
you do realize that chaim is a religious zionist, which is very similar to modern orthodoxy (correct me if im wrong).
regarding her taunting them (not sure if she did do that), if she did to that, shes 8, she doesnt know much better.
Indeed, school children were not taunting the zealot guys, it was the other way around. And when this author talked of "modern orthodox" he really meant religious zionist.
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Chaim has said that the so-called spitting incident was blown vastly out of proportion, and quite possibly provoked. We may never know what really happened, but I'm sure not accepting the NWO's version of events.
No, spitting on the little girls in Bet Shemesh was not provoked. You are confused. It is a school called Orot and for many weeks the girls were being chanted at harrassed and intimidated on the way home from school by a small band of thugs.
What the media is saying about it and using it for is mostly not true. Similarly, the other incidents they are trying to lump in with this - what they say is not true. The incident on the bus between a female soldier and a haredi guy was definitely a provocation - she works in an activist group that set out to create a provocation.
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Why do you seem to think it's okay for children to taunt religious Jews?
LOL, what? What the heck are you talking about?
The "little girls" in question are religious Jews! And they did not taunt other religious Jews, they got taunted. You are really confused now.
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"Religious Zionist" doesn't mean a whole lot in Israel. At one time, the vast majority of "religious Zionist" ravs denounced HaRav (ztl). Today, most "religious Zionists" go along with "land for peace" or at least don't oppose it. Name for me one "religious Zionist" that has backed up Chaim publicly and said he needs to make aliyah. That's right, there are none. But I doubt that this girl is even that. If the Bolshevik media is referring to her as "modern Orthodox" that might well mean that she is Deform or "conservative". Between the devout religious person and the pseudo-religious phony, I am siding with the former every time.
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"Religious Zionist" doesn't mean a whole lot in Israel. At one time, the vast majority of "religious Zionist" ravs denounced HaRav (ztl). Today, most "religious Zionists" go along with "land for peace" or at least don't oppose it. Name for me one "religious Zionist" that has backed up Chaim publicly and said he needs to make aliyah. That's right, there are none. But I doubt that this girl is even that. If the Bolshevik media is referring to her as "modern Orthodox" that might well mean that she is Deform or "conservative". Between the devout religious person and the pseudo-religious phony, I am siding with the former every time.
???
This is a very confused statement. I am not even sure what you are saying.
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???
I agree... Not much reasoning there...
His misunderstanding or confusion of two different events makes it hard to blame him for his response.
1) There is a well documented incident of the Extremists taunting little girls who were dressed according to Halacha. This I still condemn
2) There is a photo of a girl spitting on a religious Jew... This too is wrong...
But two wrongs to not make a right... Let us just make that clear...
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No, spitting on the little girls in Bet Shemesh was not provoked. You are confused. It is a school called Orot and for many weeks the girls were being chanted at harrassed and intimidated on the way home from school by a small band of thugs.
Seriously, do you know what you're writing now? This is exactly what the NWO claims about Kahanists--that we are "a small band of thugs" that threatens freedom and democracy in Israel. You know that just as well as I do. I'm not there but the more that I read up about this incident, and what the Nazi world is saying about it, the more I am inclined to believe that these few ultra-zealous protesters are the good guys in this case, and not the bad. If the media of the whole wide world is painting one little girl as an innocent victim, then she is certainly not. Did the media paint Tali Fahuel and her five little girls as innocent victims? No. Did they paint the Fogels as innocent victims? No. They said that they were "radical settlers" that were stoking the flames of "Israeli-Palestinian conflict". You know this just as well as I do. As far as I am concerned a small band of Jewish heroes are getting demonized and most of us have been brainwashed into joining in.
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2) There is a photo of a girl spitting on a religious Jew... This too is wrong...
That wasn't a "girl" Muman, it was a disgusting withered old slut.
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Seriously, do you know what you're writing now? This is exactly what the NWO claims about Kahanists--that we are "a small band of thugs" that threatens freedom and democracy in Israel. You know that just as well as I do. I'm not there but the more that I read up about this incident, and what the Nazi world is saying about it, the more I am inclined to believe that these few ultra-zealous protesters are the good guys in this case, and not the bad. If the media of the whole wide world is painting one little girl as an innocent victim, then she is certainly not. Did the media paint Tali Fahuel and her five little girls as innocent victims? No. Did they paint the Fogels as innocent victims? No. They said that they were "radical settlers" that were stoking the flames of "Israeli-Palestinian conflict". You know this just as well as I do. As far as I am concerned a small band of Jewish heroes are getting demonized and most of us have been brainwashed into joining in.
You are not looking at what happened objectively... I did not see a provocation. If Chaim could clarify what he considered the provocation then maybe we can better understand the situation. I think Axl is just trying to support what Chaim said...
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I have said my piece, Chaim should be stepping in here shortly.
Let me put it this way. Let's pretend that there is a group of extremely devout Catholics in a devout Catholic neighborhood and each day there is a group of self-hating liberal evangelical kids that walks past to taunt them. Maybe they tear up a picture of the Pope. One of these days some of the devout Catholics have enough and punch one of the liberal Protestants in the face. Who do you think I am going to side with? I have some theological and political differences with Catholicism but these people are still devout Christians and as my brothers/sisters you better believe I am going to take their side whether they overreacted or not. Now can you see where I am coming from?
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I agree... Not much reasoning there...
His misunderstanding or confusion of two different events makes it hard to blame him for his response.
1) There is a well documented incident of the Extremists taunting little girls who were dressed according to Halacha. This I still condemn
2) There is a photo of a girl spitting on a religious Jew... This too is wrong...
But two wrongs to not make a right... Let us just make that clear...
A woman, actually, but yeah, I think you are right.
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Seriously, do you know what you're writing now? This is exactly what the NWO claims about Kahanists--that we are "a small band of thugs" that threatens freedom and democracy in Israel.
Why should I care what the media says about me? I call this group a small band of thugs because that is what they are. If the media called me a hooligan, does that mean there is no longer any such thing as a hooligan in the entire world? If the media calls me an extremist, does that mean extremists don't really exist because the media uses the term incorrectly? I am using terms correctly.
They have been gathering out in front of this school for weeks. It is all on video tape. Shuls sent out memos asking volunteers to help escort the children because they were afraid. The parents hear from the children that they are intimidated and scared. I also saw Rabbi Slifkin's site where he posted these memos and detailed some of the events occurring there, (months ago) because he lives there, and likeminded Jews come to his site and could discuss this issue civilly (as they did at that time) and also get involved in protecting the children if they were available. Etc etc.
And in addition to all that evidence, which is really undeniable (there is no way to deny video taped footage), I also have friends INSIDE BET SHEMESH, who confirmed to me that indeed this has been a problem for a while now with the Orot school, and the police had to come in and try to break it up but haven't really done enough - part of that is because the "law" of the Israeli state actually prevents them from doing what is necessary and is allowing these demonstrations to continue because hey it's "democracy" right and G-d forbid that we trample on a freedom of speech or a protest. So they sacrifice little Jewish schoolchildren for the sake of their idol democracy.
But guess what else my friends have told me. That, nonetheless, the media has blown this up and used it to attack haredim and to bring out anti-settler hatred as well. My friends are not lying about the girls school. And they are also not lying about the media. And they actually sound like they would agree totally with Chaim. But certainly not with what you are saying when you are trying to pretend that the victims (the little girls) were provoking the sikrikim who are the perps here not victims! Get it straight, please.
Also my friends stress to me it's a very small group causing trouble (just as I could already gather from the reports and should be obvious to a reasonable person IMO).
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Something tells me that this is a Likudnik phony Zionist school but I will await what Chaim says.
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Something tells me that this is a Likudnik phony Zionist school but I will await what Chaim says.
Likudnik phony zionists that separate the sexes into separate schools? That's imaginative.
You have ceased to make sense on this subject. I suggest you drop it and we move on here.
The Jews involved who live in Ramat bet shemesh and whose kids populate this school are part of the national religious camp which Chaim also considers himself part of. Not seculars, not likudniks. Settlers (ramat bet shemesh is a type of settlement). And even if it was seculars, it doesn't make them automatically wrong or at fault either. We're talking about children that never did anything to anyone and are scared by grown men. A pretty simple moral issue, but it's been warped by the media into something else and tied to scores of other so-called "incidents" which have nothing to do with it (and seems to be part of your confusion, you are mixing up different incidents. It was other things that were provocations by leftists, such as the bus incident). And they brought in from all over the country feminists and women's rights activist phonies, which again has nothing to do with protecting the kids at this school. Similarly the police ( or someone? protesters, I dont even know who) ripped down some signs that were in the haredi neighborhoods in Bet Shemesh requestng modest attire. That also has nothing to do with protecting these children and also enflamed hatred for no reason (they had no right to go in and rip signs down).
So you see this is a real issue, a very specific problem, and it's getting drowned in all the other nonsense. I honestly suspect that that is the govt's and the media's intention. They don't care one bit about the kids in Orot.
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Haha, modern "orthodox"? You do know what Rabbi Kahane said on them, yes?