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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on May 22, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
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http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/20/opinion/garcia-columbus-jewish/index.html
Christopher Columbus bids farewell to his son Diego at Palos, Spain, before embarking on his first voyage on August 3, 1492.
Christopher Columbus bids farewell to his son Diego at Palos, Spain, before embarking on his first voyage on August 3, 1492.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Sunday marks the 508th anniversary of the death of Christopher Columbus
Charles Garcia: Columbus was a Marrano, or a Jew who feigned to be a Catholic
He says that during Columbus' lifetime, Jews became the target of religious persecution
Garcia: Columbus's voyage was motivated by a desire to find a safe haven for Jews
Editor's note: Charles Garcia is the CEO of Garcia Trujillo, a business focused on the Hispanic market, and the author of "Leadership Lessons of the White House Fellows." A native of Panama, he now lives in Florida. Follow him on Twitter: @charlespgarcia. Lea este artículo en español/Read this article in Spanish.
(CNN) -- Today marks the 508th anniversary of the death of Christopher Columbus.
Everybody knows the story of Columbus, right? He was an Italian explorer from Genoa who set sail in 1492 to enrich the Spanish monarchs with gold and spices from the orient. Not quite.
For too long, scholars have ignored Columbus's grand passion: the quest to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims.
Charles Garcia
Charles Garcia
During Columbus's lifetime, Jews became the target of fanatical religious persecution. On March 31, 1492, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella proclaimed that all Jews were to be expelled from Spain. The edict especially targeted the 800,000 Jews who had never converted, and gave them four months to pack up and get out.
The Jews who were forced to renounce Judaism and embrace Catholicism were known as "Conversos," or converts. There were also those who feigned conversion, practicing Catholicism outwardly while covertly practicing Judaism, the so-called "Marranos," or swine.
Tens of thousands of Marranos were tortured by the Spanish Inquisition. They were pressured to offer names of friends and family members, who were ultimately paraded in front of crowds, tied to stakes and burned alive. Their land and personal possessions were then divvied up by the church and crown.
Recently, a number of Spanish scholars, such as Jose Erugo, Celso Garcia de la Riega, Otero Sanchez and Nicholas Dias Perez, have concluded that Columbus was a Marrano, whose survival depended upon the suppression of all evidence of his Jewish background in face of the brutal, systematic ethnic cleansing.
Columbus, who was known in Spain as Cristóbal Colón and didn't speak Italian, signed his last will and testament on May 19, 1506, and made five curious -- and revealing -- provisions.
Two of his wishes -- tithe one-tenth of his income to the poor and provide an anonymous dowry for poor girls -- are part of Jewish customs. He also decreed to give money to a Jew who lived at the entrance of the Lisbon Jewish Quarter.
On those documents, Columbus used a triangular signature of dots and letters that resembled inscriptions found on gravestones of Jewish cemeteries in Spain. He ordered his heirs to use the signature in perpetuity.
According to British historian Cecil Roth's "The History of the Marranos," the anagram was a cryptic substitute for the Kaddish, a prayer recited in the synagogue by mourners after the death of a close relative. Thus, Columbus's subterfuge allowed his sons to say Kaddish for their crypto-Jewish father when he died. Finally, Columbus left money to support the crusade he hoped his successors would take up to liberate the Holy Land.
Estelle Irizarry, a linguistics professor at Georgetown University, has analyzed the language and syntax of hundreds of handwritten letters, diaries and documents of Columbus and concluded that the explorer's primary written and spoken language was Castilian Spanish. Irizarry explains that 15th-century Castilian Spanish was the "Yiddish" of Spanish Jewry, known as "Ladino." At the top left-hand corner of all but one of the 13 letters written by Columbus to his son Diego contained the handwritten Hebrew letters bet-hei, meaning b'ezrat Hashem (with G-d's help). Observant Jews have for centuries customarily added this blessing to their letters. No letters to outsiders bear this mark, and the one letter to Diego in which this was omitted was one meant for King Ferdinand.
In Simon Weisenthal's book, "Sails of Hope," he argues that Columbus's voyage was motivated by a desire to find a safe haven for the Jews in light of their expulsion from Spain. Likewise, Carol Delaney, a cultural anthropologist at Stanford University, concludes that Columbus was a deeply religious man whose purpose was to sail to Asia to obtain gold in order to finance a crusade to take back Jerusalem and rebuild the Jews' holy Temple.
In Columbus's day, Jews widely believed that Jerusalem had to be liberated and the Temple rebuilt for the Messiah to return.
Scholars point to the date on which Columbus set sail as further evidence of his true motives. He was originally going to sail on August 2, 1492, a day that happened to coincide with the Jewish holiday of Tisha B'Av, marking the destruction of the First and Second Holy Temples of Jerusalem. Columbus postponed this original sail date by one day to avoid embarking on the holiday, which would have been considered by Jews to be an unlucky day to set sail. (Coincidentally or significantly, the day he set forth was the very day that Jews were, by law, given the choice of converting, leaving Spain, or being killed.)
Columbus's voyage was not, as is commonly believed, funded by the deep pockets of Queen Isabella, but rather by two Jewish Conversos and another prominent Jew. Louis de Santangel and Gabriel Sanchez advanced an interest free loan of 17,000 ducats from their own pockets to help pay for the voyage, as did Don Isaac Abrabanel, rabbi and Jewish statesman.
Indeed, the first two letters Columbus sent back from his journey were not to Ferdinand and Isabella, but to Santangel and Sanchez, thanking them for their support and telling them what he had found.
The evidence seem to bear out a far more complicated picture of the man for whom our nation now celebrates a national holiday and has named its capital.
As we witness bloodshed the world over in the name of religious freedom, it is valuable to take another look at the man who sailed the seas in search of such freedoms -- landing in a place that would eventually come to hold such an ideal at its very core.
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I don't know if he actually stuck to Judaism secretly or just kept some residual traditions but it seems more then likely he was indeed a convert or son of converts.
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"Finally, Columbus left money to support the crusade he hoped his successors would take up to liberate the Holy Land."
Really??? Because the Crusaders were such great people to the Jews.
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"Finally, Columbus left money to support the crusade he hoped his successors would take up to liberate the Holy Land."
Really??? Because the Crusaders were such great people to the Jews.
Indeed on the face of it that fact indicates he was quite a devout Christian. It doesn't mean though he wasn't a Jew by bloodline. He wanted to rebuild the temple and for the Jews to return to the holly land but perhaps he meant for the Jews to become a Christian nation.
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Indeed on the face of it that fact indicates he was quite a devout Christian. It doesn't mean though he wasn't a Jew by bloodline. He wanted to rebuild the temple and for the Jews to return to the holly land but perhaps he meant for the Jews to become a Christian nation.
The Crusaders were worse then the Mohamadeans to the Jews. And anyway the Christians (of then- the Catholics) didn't believe in rebuilding the Temple because to them yeshu was the temple "sacrifice" and in their view the Temple is not needed.
Anyway part of the Churces "prophecy", the one and only prophecy claimed was that the Jews would not return to the Holy Land . (Something thank G-D we clearly see debuked today)
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There must be some significance to the fact that the date he set sail was Tisha B'Av. This is a bad day for the Jews.
It says it was the day after.
"Scholars point to the date on which Columbus set sail as further evidence of his true motives. He was originally going to sail on August 2, 1492, a day that happened to coincide with the Jewish holiday of Tisha B'Av, marking the destruction of the First and Second Holy Temples of Jerusalem. Columbus postponed this original sail date by one day to avoid embarking on the holiday,"
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Christopher Columbus was Portuguese {mother/Sephardic Jew} (Crypto, like me)
The man was filled with G-d.
He was a good man.
His mother was a Jew and his father was a Spanish/Catholic.
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Another thing;
IDIOTIC leftists try to say that he was an 'oppressor' of the Indians. THAT is a HUGE lie. There were a little over 120 ppl on the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.
When they got to the 'new world', America (Amerigo Vespucci, which America is named after) he had a little over 70 people, the remaining died.
There is *NO* way that 70 pale faces took on the whole of the Indian nations and subverted them. So, the defamation against Columbus is 100% BS.
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The Crusaders were worse then the Mohamadeans to the Jews. And anyway the Christians (of then- the Catholics) didn't believe in rebuilding the Temple because to them yeshu was the temple "sacrifice" and in their view the Temple is not needed.
Anyway part of the Churces "prophecy", the one and only prophecy claimed was that the Jews would not return to the Holy Land . (Something thank G-D we clearly see debuked today)
In Israel, it is the MUSLIMS that are a problem.
In America, it is the left AND Muslims that ARE the problem.
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In Israel, it is the MUSLIMS that are a problem.
In America, it is the left AND Muslims that ARE the problem.
What are you talking about? I am talking about history after the mention of the "Crusaders".
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Orthodox Christians greatly suffered during crusades...
He could have been a Jew. I know that during those terrible years thousands of Jews moved to Serbia and some to Bosnia. Later they greatly contributed to liberation of Serbia from oppressive Turkish rule by supplying weapons to local rebels. For that they had been severely punished by the muslim pigs.
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Another thing;
IDIOTIC leftists try to say that he was an 'oppressor' of the Indians. THAT is a HUGE lie. There were a little over 120 ppl on the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.
When they got to the 'new world', America (Amerigo Vespucci, which America is named after) he had a little over 70 people, the remaining died.
There is *NO* way that 70 pale faces took on the whole of the Indian nations and subverted them. So, the defamation against Columbus is 100% BS.
Where do we get this 70 number? If it is correct is there a coincidence that 70 souls descended to Egypt from Eretz Cannan after Joseph revealed his identity to his brothers...
http://torah.org/learning/perceptions/5772/shemos.html
It is ironic that the Jewish people had to descend to Mitzrayim to become a nation. Until they went down there, they were but a large family of 70 souls. However, while in Mitzrayim, they greatly increased in number until Pharaoh had no choice but to recognize them as an independent nation:
Eventually a new king came to power over Egypt who had no recollection of Yosef. He said to his people, “Notice that the nation of the Children of Israel are more numerous and powerful than we are.” (Shemos 1:7-8)
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There must be some significance to the fact that the date he set sail was Tisha B'Av. This is a bad day for the Jews.
The article said that he avoided this day and sailed the day after
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Orthodox Christians greatly suffered during crusades...
He could have been a Jew. I know that during those terrible years thousands of Jews moved to Serbia and some to Bosnia. Later they greatly contributed to liberation of Serbia from oppressive Turkish rule by supplying weapons to local rebels. For that they had been severely punished by the muslim pigs.
Yes this is true i read the Eastern Othodox asked the Western Christian for help but the Western Christian turned on the Byzantine Christians and killed and robbed them
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Yes this is true i read the Eastern Othodox asked the Western Christian for help but the Western Christian turned on the Byzantine Christians and killed and robbed them
Are you talking about the 4th crusade ?
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Are you talking about the 4th crusade ?
Yes the killed Jews and look at Eastern Christians as infidels http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/chapters/15CRUSAD.htm
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Where do we get this 70 number? If it is correct is there a coincidence that 70 souls descended to Egypt from Eretz Cannan after Joseph revealed his identity to his brothers...
Interesting, Muman, ty
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What are you talking about? I am talking about history after the mention of the "Crusaders".
I live in the here and now, thats all.
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I live in the here and now, thats all.
Okay, but we were/are talking about the past and historical facts. Why would it be a problem to say the truth that the crusaders were evil and it doesn't make sense for a good Jew to support those who would murder them off, unless either 1) he wasn't a Jew, 2) was a bad Jew 3) didn't expect such consequences for the Jews from the Crusaders he supported.
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Okay, but we were/are talking about the past and historical facts. Why would it be a problem to say the truth that the crusaders were evil and it doesn't make sense for a good Jew to support those who would murder them off, unless either 1) he wasn't a Jew, 2) was a bad Jew 3) didn't expect such consequences for the Jews from the Crusaders he supported.
Christopher Colombus was a good man, he didnt do anything wrong to anyone.
There are no Christians murdering Jews off right now.
Muslims are murdering Christians.
I dont know all about the crusaders. I do know that some went to save the holy land, and I was not there, anyway.
I am here, now. My problem is Leftist Nazis.
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Christopher Colombus was a good man, he didnt do anything wrong to anyone.
There are no Christians murdering Jews off right now.
Muslims are murdering Christians.
I dont know all about the crusaders. I do know that some went to save the holy land, and I was not there, anyway.
I am here, now. My problem is Leftist Nazis.
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Well you don't know. Fine, soo I' ll tell you. They went off to Israel and on the way + when they got there they slaughtered the Jewish communities in Israel and along the way in Europe as well.
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Well you don't know. Fine, soo I' ll tell you. They went off to Israel and on the way + when they got there they slaughtered the Jewish communities in Israel and along the way in Europe as well.
Indeed I have discussed this many times. There was nothing good about the Crusades. It was damaging to Jews everywhere...
AsheDinah, please tell us you are not trying to whitewash the great inhumanity which was perpetrated against Jews during the Crusades... I know that according to you this is in the past.... But it cannot be forgotten..
http://www.torah.org/features/holydays/omer2.html
PROPHETIC SUFFERINGS
In the times of the Crusades, there were more tragedies of immense proportions during the sefirah. In 1095 CE, during the sefirah, the Jews of over one hundred Ashkenazic communities were mercilessly massacred by the first Crusade. These included the large communities of the cities of Shair, Worms, and Magenca. In Shabbat prayer services between Passover and Shavuot, special lamentations are added to the liturgy to commemorate these massacres. Also, the prayer "Av HaRachamim," which is said all year round on Shabbat to eulogize Jewish martyrs, was composed primarily as a result of the devastation caused by the first Crusade. In some communities, "Av HaRachamim" is said only during the sefirah.
Fifty years later the second Crusade set out, between Passover and Shavuot. Again, thousands of Jews were massacred. According to Polish Jewish tradition, a special hymn written about this tragedy is to be said in the very beginning of the sefirah -- on the first Shabbat after Passover.
So, too, many of the "transports" to the death camps during the Holocaust were carried out during the sefirah.
Also, every year, the public reading of Parashat Bechukosai falls during the sefirah. It is said in the name of the Vilna Gaon that this was intentional, for this Torah portion prophetically describes the terrible suffering that the Jewish people would have to endure for failing to remain faithful to the Torah. The Sages who lived long before the Crusades, and before the times of Rabbi Akiva, too, instituted the weekly readings. According to the Vilna Gaon, the Sages of old foresaw that the period between Passover and Shavuot would be filled with sadness. Therefore they intentionally scheduled Bechukosai to be read during this period in particular, to clarify to the nation what, in fact, would be the cause for its woes.
See also: http://www.rabbiwein.com/Jerusalem-Post/2005/05/49.html
One of the reasons why the sefira period of time between Pesach and Shavuot is marked as a period of semi-mourning on the Jewish calendar is the haunting memory of the pogroms that accompanied the First Crusade in 1096. The first thirty-three days of the sefira period mark the deaths of the twenty-four thousand students of Rabbi Akiva in the times of the Roman persecutions initiated by Hadrian in the second century CE. However, the final days of the sefira period are days of mourning because of the destruction of the Jewish tri-communities of Speyers (Shapiro), Worms (Vermayza) and Mainz (Magence.) The Christian crusaders who were to embark on their holy mission to free the Holy Land from the domination of the Moslem infidels found closer infidels - the Jews - at hand. These Jewish communities were themselves very ancient even in the eleventh century. They were Jewish communities in Roman times and Jewish legend traces them back even to pre-Roman times. They were the heart of Jewish life in the Rhineland and were the seats of Torah scholarship for the Ashkenazic Jewish communities of France and Germany. The great yeshiva of Rabenu Gershom, the Light of the Exile, was in Mainz, where Rashi journeyed in his youth to study Torah from the disciples of Rabenu Gershom. The Jewish community was prosperous, well established and seemingly secure. However, the fury of the Crusaders fell upon that community, with hundreds being slaughtered and Jewish property being burned and looted. The Crusaders dragged their Jewish victims to the baptismal fount demanding their conversion to Christianity. Some Jews succumbed, but most of the Jews of those communities accepted death, even killing their own families rather than accepting any form of conversion. It was a dark time in Jewish history and remains as deep and dark a page in the annals of the Christian Church.
In the aftermath of the destruction of the communities of Speyers, Worms and Mainz, the Jewish communities in France and the Rhineland declined. By the end of the Second Crusade in the twelfth century, it was obvious that the Jewish future in those countries was dismal. In the thirteenth century, after the failure of the Third Crusade, King Louis IX of France expelled all Jews from living in his domain. In effect, this ended Jewish life in France for many centuries. The shadow of the Crusades haunted European Jewry till our day. It was the first of the Christian Holocausts perpetrated against the Jewish people in Europe. Tragically, it would not be the last. However, the enormity of the later Holocausts - Chmelienicki, Hitler, Stalin - caused the memory of the Crusades and their bloody cruelty to fade in the Jewish consciousness. It is the observance of the sefira period that has not allowed that memory to be completely obliterated from Jewish consciousness and recollection. We should be grateful for this, for it is in memory that we eventually find purpose and redemption.
The Crusades were a complete failure as far as the Christian world was concerned. It laid the seeds for the omnipresent hatred of Christians and Christianity in the Moslem world. It failed in establishing Christian control over the Holy Land. It weakened the power and control of the Church over the European monarchs and nobles. Eventually, the failure of the Crusades led to destabilization of much of Christian Europe as kings no longer set off on far-off adventures as easily as before. For the Jews, the Crusades represented a very rude awakening as to their truly precarious position within Christian Europe. In the end ,all attempts by the Jews to reach accommodation with their neighbors living in Christian Europe proved to be fruitless. The hatred and anti-Semitism bred into Europe by the Crusades and its aftermath unfortunately still finds expression today in the open hostility towards Jews, Israel and the free Jewish life that so mark current European society. To blame all of this solely on increased Moslem population in Europe is to whistle past the graveyard. The memory of the Crusades is not only present within us in our commemoration of the sefira period. It exists as well in the memory of the descendants of the crusaders. Let us pray that the sefira period will somehow be transformed into happier times for all concerned.
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AsheDina is not whitewashing the crusades. She is purely stating that the first settlers and our founders were not evil like the left would like you to believe. The first settlers were coming back to Judah, But over time the church has been slowly sucked back to the left.
And if we're going to survive christians and jews have to join together!
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AsheDina is not whitewashing the crusades. She is purely stating that the first settlers and our founders were not evil like the left would like you to believe. The first settlers were coming back to Judah, But over time the church has been slowly sucked back to the left.
And if we're going to survive christians and jews have to join together!
You are stating the obvious. I was saying that it is important to learn history in order to not repeat it.
And who said anything about the first settlers being evil? I did not see anyone suggest this.
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Here is an article from 2009 which explored this issue...
http://www.closetotorah.com/2009/04/was-christopher-columbus-jewish/
Was Columbus Jewish?
You Decide!
This question is famous and grabs our attention. If you heard some alleged proofs but never had the time to examine them for yourself, this article is for you! I will try to show you the proofs and allow you to answer the question yourself once and for all.
Throughout his life, Christopher Columbus never discussed his parents or relatives. We only know from a reference to Genoa that this was most likely his city of birth. He spoke Spanish eloquently. His family name was Columbo, the Italianized form of Colón. Colón was a Jewish name. A baptized Jew name Colón was reported to have been put on trial in 1250 in Southern France for performing Jewish religious rights. A Joseph Colón was among the leading rabbinical authorities of the fifteenth century. In Spain, the earliest trials of morranos (or conversos [a Spanish Jew who publicly converted to Christianity]) in 1461 ended in the burning of Thome Colón, his wife and his son. The list continues, causing us to suspect something based upon his name.
Columbus asked the King of Portugal to entrust him with a fleet to search for a sea route to India by sailing westward since the earth was round. The King refused and so Colón went to Spain to try his luck with King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabel of Castille. In the summer of 1485 he arrived in Palos where he met a famous astronomer named Antonio De Marchena. Antonio became a strong supporter of Colón’s plans. It should be noted that Antonio was himself a morrano, and his own brother had been burned at the stake for becoming a relapsing Jew. Colón next moved to Salamana where he succeeded in getting the support of Diego De Deza, the powerful bishop who was personal tutor to Prince Juan, the Heir to the Spanish throne. Diego was also a morrano. He introduced Colón to the Jewish astronomer Abraham Zacuto, whose Tables and Almanac were to aid Colón greatly on his many voyages.
In the same year, Colón approached Don Luis de la Cerda, Duke of Medinalceli, one of the wealthiest nobles of Andalusia. The Duke, who had a Jewish grandmother, was so impressed with Colón’s idea that he declared he would pay for the expedition from his own pocket. However, in order to build ships, the King’s permission was required, and it was not forthcoming. The Duke then wrote a personal letter to Queen Isabel and Colón was invited to present himself before the King and Queen. The audience took place at Cordova in May 1486. Colón stressed the possibility that his voyage would be useful in spreading the Christian faith and obtaining gold. Not thoroughly convinced, they appointed a commission of scientists to examine his plan. In 1490, the commission issued an unfavorable report. In despair, Colón went back to Palos, planning to leave Spain for England or France in order to offer his plan to the kings of those countries.
Queen Isabel had not fully decided against Colón’s plans and her hesitancy led to the intervention of a group of influential Jews and morranos. Of all the names of the eight people involved, it must be noted that every one of them had a relative killed for performing Jewish rituals. In fact, two of them had the “Sanbenito” done to them. (The Sanbenito was a punishment where one was forced to appear publicly in a Sanbenito cloak and humiliatingly forced to swear never to practice the Jewish faith again.) They all saw the inquisition moving in. It is quite intriguing that Jews and morranos were the only people in Spain who came out in support of an undertaking whose object was to earn glory and wealth for the Spanish crown and to spread Christianity. Three of the men were Juan Cabrero, Luis de Santangel, and Gabriel Sanchez. Aside from their being conversos, these were not ordinary Spaniards. Santangel was a member of one of the wealthiest and most influential families in Spain, as well as the King’s personal advisor. Juan Cabrero was Ferdinand’s intimate friend who had fought by the King against the Muslims. Gabriel Sanchez was the Chief Treasurer of Spain. They offered to finance Columbus’ project and it was accepted. Some scholars believe that Santangel and his associates were willing to finance Columbus in the hope of finding a new Promised Land to which they might emigrate and escape the pressure of the church.
Based on the fact that Colón had first taken his plan to Portugal, then to Spain, and when Spain turned down his proposals, he was ready to turn to England or France, one must question the notion that he was moved by the desire to serve his country and the Christian religion! He obviously had an ulterior motive, a secret aim, which he revealed to none but a small number of morranos with whom he needed to convince the king. This all seems quite thought provoking. But there is more!
On April 17, 1492 the king of Spain signed an agreement known as The Capitulations. It granted Colón the title which he so stubbornly fought for: “Grand Admiral of the Ocean Sea”. Why did he want this title so badly? Perhaps it was because he did not want to be remembered by his Christian first name. We will discuss this further when we talk about his signature.
In his writings, speeches and daily conversations, Colón often quoted the views of rabbis and other Jewish learned men. In a letter to the King and Queen in 1501, he wrote, “I maintained relations and have spoken with Jewish and other men of science.” This leads one to ask, if he was such a devout Christian, why was he so fond of the company of Jews, and especially rabbis!
He would often compare himself to King David and Moses the Jewish leader. In many of his penned letters, his sentences and statements seem to be taken directly from Tanach, especially from Isaiah and Ezekiel. This leads one to ask, did Colón know the Bible in translation or the Hebrew as well? In 1499, the secretary of the King discussed a letter which Colón wrote to his brother which contained some “unknown characters”. The problem is, Colón supposedly only knew Spanish!
He boasted that he was even related to King David. Some of his letters were described as written in an “unknown script” (perhaps Hebrew?), and it has been suggested that his unique triangular signature is similar to inscriptions found on gravestones of ancient Jewish cemeteries in Spain and Southern France.
Colón was more driven by prophecy than astronomy. He compiled a collection of Biblical passages in his Libro de las Profecias, Book of Prophecies. It contained Proverbs 8:27, which speaks of the earth’s surface as being curved; Isaiah 40:22, the spherical earth; and the ocean currents in Isaiah 43:16. He would later describe his discovery of the New World as “the fulfillment of what Isaiah prophesied, from Isaiah 24:15, “Isles beyond the sea,” (and Isaiah 60:9)”.
A famous Columbus researcher, Jane Frances Amler, stated that her research concluded that Columbus was a converso. In Spain, even some converted Jews were forced to leave after much persecution; it is known that many conversos were still practicing Judaism in secret. The correlation between the Alhambra Decree, which called for the expulsion of all of the Jews from Spain and its territories and possessions by July 31, 1492, and Columbus’ embarking on his first voyage on August 3, 1492, (Interestingly, according to the Hebrew calendar, August 2 was Tisha’ah B’Av.) has been offered as support for this claim. Colón rushed to set sail as soon as he received permission. Perhaps he rushed because he wanted to find a new home for the exiled Jews. (Parenthetically, Columbus writes in his personal journal that his embarking was delayed for a few days as there was too much traffic of Jews being evicted to allow for him to set sail!)
Discovery Channel‘s Columbus: Secrets from the Grave purports that Columbus could not have been of Jewish descent because certain genetic markers characteristic of people with converso descent were not present in Columbus’ DNA. Many scholars have stated that this is inconclusive.
Columbus employed peculiar dates and phrases unique to the Hebrew people. Instead of referring to the “destruction” or “fall of Jerusalem”, he used the phrase “the destruction of the second house”. He also employed the Hebrew reckoning of 68 A.D., instead of 70 A.D to date the event. A marginal note dated 1481 is immediately given its Hebrew equivalent of 5241, etc.
Colón’s signature proves that he knew Hebrew prayers. His signature is found in two variants. Both are made of seven Latin characters arranged to form an equilateral triangle and below it, in one line, three letters and one word.
(http://www.closetotorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/c3.jpg)
The difference between the two is only on the lowest line. In one it reads “Xpo FERENS”, while the other reads “El Admirante”. Many attempts have been made to decipher this strange cryptogram (including some supposed talk of kabbalistic basis, but I could not find anything on this). None proved satisfactory until M.B. Amzalak of Lisbon succeeded in 1927 to unravel the mystery of the seven letter triangle. Maurice Davis of New York, managed to discover the hidden meaning of “Xpo FERENS” in 1933. In Colón’s time, in prayer books, they would abbreviate recurring words as an initial between two dots. Thus for example, the symbol .A. would be Hashem‘s name of Ad’nus. In light of this, Amzalak suggests that .S.S.A.S. stands for: “Santo Santo Santo Ado-noy S’baot” – “Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts” (Isaiah 6:3). These are the words that the angels on high say about Hashem and we recite in the prayers Uva Li’tzion and Kedusha.
As for the XMY, they are the Spanish letters which resemble three Hebrew letters. X equals Shin (both look similar). M equals Mem. Y equals Ayin. Handwritten they appear quite similar as you can see in the copy of his signature. He slanted the Y very much so that it looks like an Ayin without requiring much imagination. There are no dots because these letters represent nothing, rather they spell out a specific word, a word which begins a very fundamental Jewish phrase: Shin-Mem-Ayin – Shema. This is the first word of the affirmation of the Jews monotheistic faith: Shema Yisra’el Hashem Elokeinu Hashem Echad, Hear O Israel that Hashem our God is One. Together, the seven letters stand for the Jews ultimate expression of faith.
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And who said anything about the first settlers being evil? I did not see anyone suggest this.
I was not saying any of us said this! The left says that! And they try to erase our history. And say that we were the one's that did all of the damage. When it really was the left over time!
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I was not attacking you!
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Here is an article from 2009 which explored this issue...
http://www.closetotorah.com/2009/04/was-christopher-columbus-jewish/
Was Columbus Jewish?
You Decide!
This question is famous and grabs our attention. If you heard some alleged proofs but never had the time to examine them for yourself, this article is for you! I will try to show you the proofs and allow you to answer the question yourself once and for all.
Throughout his life, Christopher Columbus never discussed his parents or relatives. We only know from a reference to Genoa that this was most likely his city of birth. He spoke Spanish eloquently. His family name was Columbo, the Italianized form of Colón. Colón was a Jewish name. A baptized Jew name Colón was reported to have been put on trial in 1250 in Southern France for performing Jewish religious rights. A Joseph Colón was among the leading rabbinical authorities of the fifteenth century. In Spain, the earliest trials of morranos (or conversos [a Spanish Jew who publicly converted to Christianity]) in 1461 ended in the burning of Thome Colón, his wife and his son. The list continues, causing us to suspect something based upon his name.
Columbus asked the King of Portugal to entrust him with a fleet to search for a sea route to India by sailing westward since the earth was round. The King refused and so Colón went to Spain to try his luck with King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabel of Castille. In the summer of 1485 he arrived in Palos where he met a famous astronomer named Antonio De Marchena. Antonio became a strong supporter of Colón’s plans. It should be noted that Antonio was himself a morrano, and his own brother had been burned at the stake for becoming a relapsing Jew. Colón next moved to Salamana where he succeeded in getting the support of Diego De Deza, the powerful bishop who was personal tutor to Prince Juan, the Heir to the Spanish throne. Diego was also a morrano. He introduced Colón to the Jewish astronomer Abraham Zacuto, whose Tables and Almanac were to aid Colón greatly on his many voyages.
In the same year, Colón approached Don Luis de la Cerda, Duke of Medinalceli, one of the wealthiest nobles of Andalusia. The Duke, who had a Jewish grandmother, was so impressed with Colón’s idea that he declared he would pay for the expedition from his own pocket. However, in order to build ships, the King’s permission was required, and it was not forthcoming. The Duke then wrote a personal letter to Queen Isabel and Colón was invited to present himself before the King and Queen. The audience took place at Cordova in May 1486. Colón stressed the possibility that his voyage would be useful in spreading the Christian faith and obtaining gold. Not thoroughly convinced, they appointed a commission of scientists to examine his plan. In 1490, the commission issued an unfavorable report. In despair, Colón went back to Palos, planning to leave Spain for England or France in order to offer his plan to the kings of those countries.
Queen Isabel had not fully decided against Colón’s plans and her hesitancy led to the intervention of a group of influential Jews and morranos. Of all the names of the eight people involved, it must be noted that every one of them had a relative killed for performing Jewish rituals. In fact, two of them had the “Sanbenito” done to them. (The Sanbenito was a punishment where one was forced to appear publicly in a Sanbenito cloak and humiliatingly forced to swear never to practice the Jewish faith again.) They all saw the inquisition moving in. It is quite intriguing that Jews and morranos were the only people in Spain who came out in support of an undertaking whose object was to earn glory and wealth for the Spanish crown and to spread Christianity. Three of the men were Juan Cabrero, Luis de Santangel, and Gabriel Sanchez. Aside from their being conversos, these were not ordinary Spaniards. Santangel was a member of one of the wealthiest and most influential families in Spain, as well as the King’s personal advisor. Juan Cabrero was Ferdinand’s intimate friend who had fought by the King against the Muslims. Gabriel Sanchez was the Chief Treasurer of Spain. They offered to finance Columbus’ project and it was accepted. Some scholars believe that Santangel and his associates were willing to finance Columbus in the hope of finding a new Promised Land to which they might emigrate and escape the pressure of the church.
Based on the fact that Colón had first taken his plan to Portugal, then to Spain, and when Spain turned down his proposals, he was ready to turn to England or France, one must question the notion that he was moved by the desire to serve his country and the Christian religion! He obviously had an ulterior motive, a secret aim, which he revealed to none but a small number of morranos with whom he needed to convince the king. This all seems quite thought provoking. But there is more!
On April 17, 1492 the king of Spain signed an agreement known as The Capitulations. It granted Colón the title which he so stubbornly fought for: “Grand Admiral of the Ocean Sea”. Why did he want this title so badly? Perhaps it was because he did not want to be remembered by his Christian first name. We will discuss this further when we talk about his signature.
In his writings, speeches and daily conversations, Colón often quoted the views of rabbis and other Jewish learned men. In a letter to the King and Queen in 1501, he wrote, “I maintained relations and have spoken with Jewish and other men of science.” This leads one to ask, if he was such a devout Christian, why was he so fond of the company of Jews, and especially rabbis!
He would often compare himself to King David and Moses the Jewish leader. In many of his penned letters, his sentences and statements seem to be taken directly from Tanach, especially from Isaiah and Ezekiel. This leads one to ask, did Colón know the Bible in translation or the Hebrew as well? In 1499, the secretary of the King discussed a letter which Colón wrote to his brother which contained some “unknown characters”. The problem is, Colón supposedly only knew Spanish!
He boasted that he was even related to King David. Some of his letters were described as written in an “unknown script” (perhaps Hebrew?), and it has been suggested that his unique triangular signature is similar to inscriptions found on gravestones of ancient Jewish cemeteries in Spain and Southern France.
Colón was more driven by prophecy than astronomy. He compiled a collection of Biblical passages in his Libro de las Profecias, Book of Prophecies. It contained Proverbs 8:27, which speaks of the earth’s surface as being curved; Isaiah 40:22, the spherical earth; and the ocean currents in Isaiah 43:16. He would later describe his discovery of the New World as “the fulfillment of what Isaiah prophesied, from Isaiah 24:15, “Isles beyond the sea,” (and Isaiah 60:9)”.
A famous Columbus researcher, Jane Frances Amler, stated that her research concluded that Columbus was a converso. In Spain, even some converted Jews were forced to leave after much persecution; it is known that many conversos were still practicing Judaism in secret. The correlation between the Alhambra Decree, which called for the expulsion of all of the Jews from Spain and its territories and possessions by July 31, 1492, and Columbus’ embarking on his first voyage on August 3, 1492, (Interestingly, according to the Hebrew calendar, August 2 was Tisha’ah B’Av.) has been offered as support for this claim. Colón rushed to set sail as soon as he received permission. Perhaps he rushed because he wanted to find a new home for the exiled Jews. (Parenthetically, Columbus writes in his personal journal that his embarking was delayed for a few days as there was too much traffic of Jews being evicted to allow for him to set sail!)
Discovery Channel‘s Columbus: Secrets from the Grave purports that Columbus could not have been of Jewish descent because certain genetic markers characteristic of people with converso descent were not present in Columbus’ DNA. Many scholars have stated that this is inconclusive.
Columbus employed peculiar dates and phrases unique to the Hebrew people. Instead of referring to the “destruction” or “fall of Jerusalem”, he used the phrase “the destruction of the second house”. He also employed the Hebrew reckoning of 68 A.D., instead of 70 A.D to date the event. A marginal note dated 1481 is immediately given its Hebrew equivalent of 5241, etc.
Colón’s signature proves that he knew Hebrew prayers. His signature is found in two variants. Both are made of seven Latin characters arranged to form an equilateral triangle and below it, in one line, three letters and one word.
(http://www.closetotorah.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/c3.jpg)
The difference between the two is only on the lowest line. In one it reads “Xpo FERENS”, while the other reads “El Admirante”. Many attempts have been made to decipher this strange cryptogram (including some supposed talk of kabbalistic basis, but I could not find anything on this). None proved satisfactory until M.B. Amzalak of Lisbon succeeded in 1927 to unravel the mystery of the seven letter triangle. Maurice Davis of New York, managed to discover the hidden meaning of “Xpo FERENS” in 1933. In Colón’s time, in prayer books, they would abbreviate recurring words as an initial between two dots. Thus for example, the symbol .A. would be Hashem‘s name of Ad’nus. In light of this, Amzalak suggests that .S.S.A.S. stands for: “Santo Santo Santo Ado-noy S’baot” – “Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts” (Isaiah 6:3). These are the words that the angels on high say about Hashem and we recite in the prayers Uva Li’tzion and Kedusha.
As for the XMY, they are the Spanish letters which resemble three Hebrew letters. X equals Shin (both look similar). M equals Mem. Y equals Ayin. Handwritten they appear quite similar as you can see in the copy of his signature. He slanted the Y very much so that it looks like an Ayin without requiring much imagination. There are no dots because these letters represent nothing, rather they spell out a specific word, a word which begins a very fundamental Jewish phrase: Shin-Mem-Ayin – Shema. This is the first word of the affirmation of the Jews monotheistic faith: Shema Yisra’el Hashem Elokeinu Hashem Echad, Hear O Israel that Hashem our G-d is One. Together, the seven letters stand for the Jews ultimate expression of faith.
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I was not saying any of us said this! The left says that! And they try to erase our history. And say that we were the one's that did all of the damage. When it really was the left over time!
We were not talking about the settlers (to the Americas). We were talking about the crusaders- different people.
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Yes! I agree! But Ashedina was talking about the founders of America!
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10 million Native Americans perished after the greedy Europeans set foot on this soil :o 80% of population in Mexico was murdered, not to even touch upon events in South America...
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10 million Native Americans perished after the greedy Europeans set foot on this soil :o 80% of population in Mexico was murdered, not to even touch upon events in South America...
80 percent of the population of Mexico was not murdered, the majority of Mexico are mestizos which means they are mixed with European and Mayan or Aztec, etc. the majority by DNA are the original descendants but have basically inherited Spanish as their language and some of the hispanic culture mixing it with their own. Most of south America is still primarily indigenous too unless you go to Uruguay, Argentina or the falkland islands.
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Some of the early sea explorers were from Jewish origin ! :dance:
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Discovery Channel‘s Columbus: Secrets from the Grave purports that Columbus could not have been of Jewish descent because certain genetic markers characteristic of people with converso descent were not present in Columbus’ DNA.
I saw that program they said it was inconclusive either way
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80 percent of the population of Mexico was not murdered, the majority of Mexico are mestizos which means they are mixed with European and Mayan or Aztec, etc. the majority by DNA are the original descendants but have basically inherited Spanish as their language and some of the hispanic culture mixing it with their own. Most of south America is still primarily indigenous too unless you go to Uruguay, Argentina or the falkland islands.
In the mid 1600 population of present day Mexico dropped to 1 million....It took 350-400 years for population in conquered lands to recover and reach levels as they were before Spanish conquest.
Natives in North America still live in concentration camps.
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In the mid 1600 population of present day Mexico dropped to 1 million....It took 350-400 years for population in conquered lands to recover and reach levels as they were before Spanish conquest.
Natives in North America still live in concentration camps.
You think Indian reservations, where the natives have the right to live according to their own laws are concentration camps ?
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You think Indian reservations, where the natives have the right to live according to their own laws are concentration camps ?
Yes.
I do not think that Columbus was a Jew. Even if he was given the money by Jewish community we must understand that every time any ruler had a money problem he turned to robbing Jews. It is very likely that financiers had been forced to finance this voyage. This whole article is total hoax. As for Jewish holiday, it could just be a coincidence, nothing more.
Let’s say Jews were in trouble and were looking for another land to settle. He had found this New World. Why then Jews did not settle there if sole purpose of financing was to find new promised land and escape persecution? No sense at all. He was hard core Catholic and we all know this.
But problem is that true history about genocide committed against the Native Americans is coming to surface. Catholic Church is one of main perpetrators. Why not shift all this genocide to Jews and label explorer Columbus to be of Jewish origin? Nice try.
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In the mid 1600 population of present day Mexico dropped to 1 million....It took 350-400 years for population in conquered lands to recover and reach levels as they were before Spanish conquest.
Natives in North America still live in concentration camps.
My Mother is a Portuguese/Marrano Jew. My father is Seneca Iroquois/Christian.
My father TOTALLY embraces his Indian heritage (Which probably turned my mother off of him, completely, which is why they are divorced for 40 years)
My Dad is a skilled hunter, he lives off of his OWN LAND. NOT Govt land, his OWN land.
You are mistaken, Serbian Army. Many Indians in America are flaming Commies. I dont know why. I know America is very evil, now, but the facts are; Indians CHOOSE to live under the US Govt.
Also, they FOUGHT the whites. But, they *NEVER* believed the land belonged to them. That is how the Indians are. They are *NOT* Mexican, either.
Many assimilated with the whites and many Americans are partial Indian.
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AsheDina is not whitewashing the crusades. She is purely stating that the first settlers and our founders were not evil like the left would like you to believe. The first settlers were coming back to Judah, But over time the church has been slowly sucked back to the left.
And if we're going to survive christians and jews have to join together!
I didnt white wash. I CHOOSE to live in the HERE and NOW.
I am not a liberal. Liberals concentrate on crap that happened 400-600 years ago. NOT me.
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Yes.
I do not think that Columbus was a Jew. Even if he was given the money by Jewish community we must understand that every time any ruler had a money problem he turned to robbing Jews. It is very likely that financiers had been forced to finance this voyage. This whole article is total hoax. As for Jewish holiday, it could just be a coincidence, nothing more.
Let’s say Jews were in trouble and were looking for another land to settle. He had found this New World. Why then Jews did not settle there if sole purpose of financing was to find new promised land and escape persecution? No sense at all. He was hard core Catholic and we all know this.
But problem is that true history about genocide committed against the Native Americans is coming to surface. Catholic Church is one of main perpetrators. Why not shift all this genocide to Jews and label explorer Columbus to be of Jewish origin? Nice try.
Columbus was a Portuguese/Marrano Jew. His Mother was a Jew. Makes him a Jew. His father was Catholic/Spaniard.
There was no 'genocide' against the Indians, I am here to disprove you. I am alive and Iroquois by my Dad, an you are brainwashed from somewhere.
The Native Americans FOUGHT whites.
In genocide, they do NOT allow 'fighting back.'
Indians then, assimilated.
The Catholics are not to blame, either. Christopher Columbus was a whole army of approx 140 plus, he ended up with SEVENTY. There is NO way that SEVENTY murdered off over 7 million Indians.
And, also, with all due respect, what you say is a Communist-leftist talking point. I reject it, completely.
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Indians CHOOSE to live under the US Govt.
But, they *NEVER* believed the land belonged to them. That is how the Indians are. They are *NOT* Mexican, either.
They never believed land belongs to them? :o I guess they realized that this land always belonged to white Europeans.
What happened to those Indians who did not choose to live under the US Gov.? They were placed in concentration camps.
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There is no 'genocide' against the Indians, I am here to disprove you.
Ok. Maybe in history books you studied from. That genocide must be conspiracy against America.
Native Americans lived in harmony with conquerors.
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They never believed land belongs to them? :o I guess they realized that this land always belonged to white Europeans.
What happened to those Indians who did not choose to live under the US Gov.? They were placed in concentration camps.
What in the hell are you talking about? My Dad does NOT live in a concentration camp. There was NO US Govt enforcing their ways on people back then!
My Dad lives on his OWN land. NO, Indians not believe that *ANY* land belonged to ANYONE. That is the way Indians are.
They believe that land belongs to the 'great spirit'. Meaning G-D.
You understand now?
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Ok. Maybe in history books you studied from. That genocide must be conspiracy against America.
Native Americans lived in harmony with conquerors.
Jeezzzzzzzzz, how old are you?
Whites were NOT 'conquerors.'
The Indians TAUGHT the whites how to till the land here. The Indians, b/c of their beliefs EMBRACED the white people. They thought whites were angelic.
The history I learned of was from my FATHER, a NATIVE AMERICAN IROQUOIS INDIAN.
READ for crying out loud
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The Native Americans FOUGHT whites. (In the 1800's, it started in 1850's)
In genocide, they do NOT allow 'fighting back.'
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Ok. Maybe in history books you studied from. That genocide must be conspiracy against America.
Native Americans lived in harmony with conquerors.
Read this:
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It would be very good to say that this friendship lasted a long time; but, unfortunately, that was not to be. More English people came to America, and they were not in need of help from the Indians as were the original Pilgrims. Many of the newcomers forgot the help the Indians had given them. Mistrust started to grow and the friendship weakened. The Pilgrims started telling their Indian neighbors that their Indian religion and Indian customs were wrong.
This time of friendship and peace did not last. Before too long the clashes of culture, and the differences in beliefs, surfaced, creating a hostile environment for both cultures. The Pilgrims could not have survived without the aid and teachings of the Native Americans. The importance of the Indian's help soon became forgotten in the clashes that occured. Let us today be forever Thankful that the Native Americans that befriended the Pilgrims lived by their own beliefs and teachings of helping those in need. For without their aid, what would have become of the Pilgrims at Plymouth?
http://victorianas.com/thanks/native
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Anyway, I apologize to the rest of you.
Columbus was a Marrano Jew. His Mother was a Jew-Portuguese. His Dad was Spaniard/Catholic.
Saying that Columbus was not a Jew is wrong, he was.
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You are stating the obvious. I was saying that it is important to learn history in order to not repeat it.
And who said anything about the first settlers being evil? I did not see anyone suggest this.
We here in America, are repeating history, only it is Stalinist history being repeated. Which is seriously UNFRIENDLY to Jews and Christians. So, the crusades are not something I worry about or distress over. (The SAME case scenario is happening in Israel with the left. It is NOT christians that are persecuting Jews in Israel. It is the LEFTISTS/Stalinists)
IF it was Christians that were murdering Jews in America, I would fight it.
But, frankly, I just live in the here and now.
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Jeezzzzzzzzz, how old are you?
Whites were NOT 'conquerors.'
The Indians, b/c of their beliefs EMBRACED the white people. They thought whites were angelic.
You must be kidding?
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Read this:
'
It would be very good to say that this friendship lasted a long time; but, unfortunately, that was not to be. More English people came to America, and they were not in need of help from the Indians as were the original Pilgrims. Many of the newcomers forgot the help the Indians had given them. Mistrust started to grow and the friendship weakened. The Pilgrims started telling their Indian neighbors that their Indian religion and Indian customs were wrong.
This time of friendship and peace did not last. Before too long the clashes of culture, and the differences in beliefs, surfaced, creating a hostile environment for both cultures. The Pilgrims could not have survived without the aid and teachings of the Native Americans. The importance of the Indian's help soon became forgotten in the clashes that occured. Let us today be forever Thankful that the Native Americans that befriended the Pilgrims lived by their own beliefs and teachings of helping those in need. For without their aid, what would have become of the Pilgrims at Plymouth?
http://victorianas.com/thanks/native
My knowledge of history is much deeper than these stories for little American children.
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My knowledge of history is much deeper than these stories for little American children.
Your 'history' is from Communists.
I gave you the easiest reading because I didnt know if you read English well or not.
I just told you; I AM IROQUOIS INDIAN BY MY FATHER.
I AM NATIVE AMERICAN. I am telling you, that you are learning LIES.
If you dont believe me, then you are just calling me a liar.
Thanks a lot. I dont know you, but thanks for calling me and my fathers family liars and instead, believing in Commie BS.
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My knowledge of history is much deeper than these stories for little American children.
REFUTE this story, then. REFUTE IT.
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My knowledge of history is much deeper than these stories for little American children.
BY THE WAY:
This is MY families history, IN America- and here YOU are, an expert be4cause of friggin leftist Commies?
I cant believe the lengths people go to make other people feel like sh*t.
MY family was NOT invaded. Indians were NOT INVADED. They are ASSIMILATED into the white populus. MILLIONS are ASSIMILATED into the WHITE POPULUS of America.
I wont talk to you anymore. You totally disrespected MY heritage. NOT yours. MINE. Call me and my family liars.
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This time of friendship and peace did not last. Before too long the clashes of culture, and the differences in beliefs, surfaced, creating a hostile environment for both cultures. The Pilgrims could not have survived without the aid and teachings of the Native Americans.
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WHERE is a LIE??
This is the TRUTH.
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You think Indian reservations, where the natives have the right to live according to their own laws are concentration camps ?
I spent a lot of time on a reservation as a kid, we had a lot of good times. And in my lifetime I've seen the reservation come a long way.
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You do not know history because you father did not want to tell the truth. He left that "truth" to be told through American educational system and now you do not know history of your people or you know very little. What I write every single student in this world knows but American. Over 10 million Indians had been murdered and those who survived mostly live in reservations/concentration camps. You father wanted you to live in purple world in which you would not feel different as Native American.
Maybe what I am writing is not popular, or it upsets you, but read books and research about atrocities committed against your people.
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Yes! I agree! But Ashedina was talking about the founders of America!
Well she responded to my mention of the Crusaders. And anyway her being a Moranno Jewess, descendants of the Jews who were forcibly converted or brutally murdered, I would not expect clemency or justification of the church in Spain and the Crusaders from throughout Europe.
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You do not know history because you father did not want to tell the truth. He left that "truth" to be told through American educational system and now you do not know history of your people or you know very little. What I write every single student in this world knows but American. Over 10 million Indians had been murdered and those who survived mostly live in reservations/concentration camps. You father wanted you to live in purple world in which you would not feel different as Native American.
Maybe what I am writing is not popular, or it upsets you, but read books and research about atrocities committed against your people.
My father has kept many artifacts that are well over 500 yrs old. My grandmother told me the stories of my fathers people, as well as my g'great-mother.
One of the artifacts is my g-g-g-g grandmother, which is engraved in a bears tooth.
MY people, NOT YOURS got along very well with white Europeans.
SO-Basically you are calling me a liar, and that is nasty.
The "American" education system now, is full of sh*t.
Ask ANY American here.
You have TOTALLY disrespected me, my father, who DOES NOT LIE, called MY family liars, & belittled me.
I will tell you this regarding the "American" KIND 'education' bullsh*t, for this IS what they teach about the sweet, wonderful, nice, Kosovo/Bosnian Muslims:
The Kosavo/Bosnians were kind to you, and dont tell me different, because the American education system PLAINLY says that the Serbs got what they asked for when America invaded their country, killing Serb Christians over Kosovo/Bosnian Muslim/Nazis..
That is what America teaches about Serbia.
So, knock your socks off Chump.
Believe the BULLSH*T American 'education' system.
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Well she responded to my mention of the Crusaders. And anyway her being a Moranno Jewess, descendants of the Jews who were forcibly converted or brutally murdered, I would not expect clemency or justification of the church in Spain and the Crusaders from throughout Europe.
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Yes, my moms family mothers and fathers (Portuguese Marrano Jews) were SERIOUSLY forcefully indoctrinated. But that was not the crusades. That was during the Spanish Inquisition. I dont hold Catholics NOW, responsible for what happened THEN.
I happen to love Catholic people very much. Of course not as much as my fellow Jews because they understand a pain inside of me that is terrible... Like when I hear the Hatikvah, or Yerushalayim Shel Zehav. I weep my gutts out, and I do know why; It is because of a pain throughout the ages. It is very deep. I dont expect non-Jews to understand it.
But, I just dont look at past sins of gentile nations and hold accountable Christians and Catholics now. Thats me. My enemy is the Stalinists/left.
They hate G-d, they hate Jews and Israel and they seriously hate Christians more than anyone.
So, that is my fight NOW.
You see?
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Yea, serbianarmy dude, seriously, the majority of Native Americans that died were from western disease, which they had never encountered, and alcoholism helped in that, and was the main threat to the culture. Explain me how everyone in the world knows something except the people it happened to? "Everyone in the world" knows Serbia started an "unprovoked genocide" against the muzzbag sex slavers and butchers.
Thinking about it logically, when everyone agrees with something, it's usually wrong.
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My father has kept many artifacts that are well over 500 yrs old. My grandmother told me the stories of my fathers people, as well as my g'great-mother.
One of the artifacts is my g-g-g-g grandmother, which is engraved in a bears tooth.
MY people, NOT YOURS got along very well with white Europeans.
SO-Basically you are calling me a liar, and that is nasty.
The "American" education system now, is full of sh*t.
Ask ANY American here.
You have TOTALLY disrespected me, my father, who DOES NOT LIE, called MY family liars, & belittled me.
I will tell you this regarding the "American" KIND 'education' bullsh*t, for this IS what they teach about the sweet, wonderful, nice, Kosovo/Bosnian Muslims:
The Kosavo/Bosnians were kind to you, and dont tell me different, because the American education system PLAINLY says that the Serbs got what they asked for when America invaded their country, killing Serb Christians over Kosovo/Bosnian Muslim/Nazis..
That is what America teaches about Serbia.
So, knock your socks off Chump.
Believe the BULLSH*T American 'education' system.
I did research on your particular tribe or coalition of 6 different tribes (Iroquolis). Because of their war efforts they had not be exterminated like other tribes in North America. But that does not mean millions of Indians had not been murdered. You must separate those two things.
Jews were not murdered in America in WWII but it does not mean that Holocaust never happened.
In case of Kosovo, I am not worried what they teach kids in schools. They are not able to show Europe on the map let alone know history of that region.
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Yea, serbianarmy dude, seriously, the majority of Native Americans that died were from western disease, which they had never encountered
I agree on that. Unfortunate souls that survived had been placed as slaves in gold mines where most of them died. In North America those tribes who could not protect their land anymore ended up in concentration camps/reservations. See this video:
http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/aiholocaust.html
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I agree on that. Unfortunate souls that survived had been placed as slaves in gold mines where most of them died. In North America those tribes who could not protect their land anymore ended up in concentration camps/reservations. See this video:
http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/aiholocaust.html
Nope, that is an anti-American, Commie bullsh*t website.
There was no 'holocaust' of American Indians.
The Indians FOUGHT BACK, starting in the 1850's. They didnt get shot systematically. The Jews DID.
So, you are trying to say that the American Indians who FOUGHT back were systematically destroyed.
BS.
They not only fought back, their savagery was BY FAR worse than any savagery Americans had ever seen.
The American Indian, much the same in over 100 years: Living off US Govt, CHOOSING to live in squalor. Alcoholics, wife-beaters. The tribe called Lumbee Indians are probably the only SANE tribe in America, now. Besides assimilated Indians.
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The U.S. government has "helped" no group more than it has "helped" the American Indians. It stuns me when President Obama appears before Indian groups and says things like, "Few have been ignored by Washington for as long as Native Americans."
Ignored? Are you kidding me? They should be so lucky. The government has made most Indian tribes wards of the state. Government manages their land, provides their health care, and pays for housing and child care. Twenty different departments and agencies have special "native American" programs. The result? Indians have the highest poverty rate, nearly 25 percent, and the lowest life expectancy of any group in America. Sixty-six percent are born to single mothers.
Nevertheless, Indian activists want more government "help."
It is intuitive to assume that, when people struggle, government "help" is the answer. The opposite is true. American groups who are helped the most, do the worst.
Consider the Lumbees of Robeson County, N.C. -- a tribe not recognized as sovereign by the government and therefore ineligible for most of the "help" given other tribes. The Lumbees do much better than those recognized tribes.
Lumbees own their homes and succeed in business. They include real estate developer Jim Thomas, who used to own the Sacramento Kings, and Jack Lowery, who helped start the Cracker Barrel Restaurants. Lumbees started the first Indian-owned bank, which now has 12 branches.
The Lumbees' wealth is not from casino money.
"We don't have any casinos. We have 12 banks," says Ben Chavis, another successful Lumbee businessman. He also points out that Robeson County looks different from most Indian reservations.
"There's mansions. They look like English manors. I can take you to one neighborhood where my people are from and show you nicer homes than the whole Sioux reservation."
Despite this success, professional "victims" activists want Congress to make the Lumbees dependent -- like other tribes. U.S. Rep. Mike McIntyre, D-N.C., has introduced the Lumbee Recognition Act, which would give the Lumbees the same "help" other tribes get -- about $80 million a year. Some members of the tribe support the bill.
Of course they do. People like to freeload.
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Yea, serbianarmy dude, seriously, the majority of Native Americans that died were from western disease, which they had never encountered, and alcoholism helped in that, and was the main threat to the culture. Explain me how everyone in the world knows something except the people it happened to? "Everyone in the world" knows Serbia started an "unprovoked genocide" against the muzzbag sex slavers and butchers.
Thinking about it logically, when everyone agrees with something, it's usually wrong.
Thank you, and I am through with the convo. I am proof that many Indians were not killed. My Dad is proof, plus MANY Indians are 100% PROOF. The Yavapais up here in AZ live like fat-cats. They also try to push that mumbo jumbo that there was a 'holocaust.' which is 100% crap.
The Indians were FIERCE fighters. I dont like it when people try to PRETEND that the American Indian was victim, they most certainly were NOT!
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I agree on that. Unfortunate souls that survived had been placed as slaves in gold mines where most of them died. In North America those tribes who could not protect their land anymore ended up in concentration camps/reservations.
A reservation can not be compared in any way to a concentration camp. The Spanish enslaved many for the mines, but the rest of the colonizers only attacked due to terrible atrocities such as scalping, burning people alive, raids due to colonists not giving gifts in return for what they assumed was just a gift, and many other horrible things.
While British colonists learned much from the native Americans, such as even the idea of united states, the Native American culture was completely inflexible, and only those assimilated adopted the many beneficial attributes of European culture. Other then getting better at killing, and over-trapping, it was evident that both cultures could never co-exist.
Also, the Spanish weren't killing and enslaving friendly, welcoming people here. The Aztecs would slit people open on top of their step pyramids, and let the blood run down, and carried an ideology that the land must be fed with blood, and would go out hunting the less advanced natives for more sacrifices during a special time of the year, and these less advanced ones still survive in jungle societies until this day.
Also, if a tribe could not protect its land, it would typically be wiped clean by Mohawks and other violent tribes. The colonists helped but the historical revisionists exaggerate at every turn, to have a chance to say "America is bad".
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it was evident that both cultures could never co-exist.
That is why one was wiped out. Out of 20 million we have 250,000 Native Americans in North America. They were probably imigrating to other countries?
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That is why one was wiped out. Out of 20 million we have 250,000 Native Americans in North America. They were probably imigrating to other countries?
Minor emigration, but assimilation through missions and otherwise claimed most of this statistic I'm sure you have no legitimate way of verifying. Why don't you try and follow their very spartan and conversational culture surrounded by a sprawling urban metropolis. If a Native American leaves the reservation, he is provided an Indian affairs card, and is offered benefits like dental and tax breaks, and in three generations, is considered assimilated and no longer receives these benefits. This and other factors keeps the Native American population perpetually low, if they had been racially segregated (bad) their population would be massive in 400 years of living with the Americans. Don't repeat stuff you haven't studied and are 100% sure about, it's the path to liberalism.
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Minor emigration, but assimilation through missions and otherwise claimed most of this statistic I'm sure you have no legitimate way of verifying. Why don't you try and follow their very spartan and conversational culture surrounded by a sprawling urban metropolis. If a Native American leaves the reservation, he is provided an Indian affairs card, and is offered benefits like dental and tax breaks, and in three generations, is considered assimilated and no longer receives these benefits. This and other factors keeps the Native American population perpetually low, if they had been racially segregated (bad) their population would be massive in 400 years of living with the Americans. Don't repeat stuff you haven't studied and are 100% sure about, it's the path to liberalism.
And this is official history in America on subject of genocide and mass murder of indigenous people? I am not surprised as we have Lincoln to be "against" slavery and Civil War fought to free slaves. Then we have that Roosevelt was a great president with superb economic policies. :o
I have two choices here. One is to start posting evidence of gruesome mass murders of Indians or just "admit" they disappeared because they wanted to live American dream. Germans say Lusatian Serbs just wanted to become Germans and thus almost disappeared from history.
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And this is official history in America on subject of genocide and mass murder of indigenous people? I am not surprised as we have Lincoln to be "against" slavery and Civil War fought to free slaves. Then we have that Roosevelt was a great president with superb economic policies. :o
I have two choices here. One is to start posting evidence of gruesome mass murders of Indians or just "admit" they disappeared because they wanted to live American dream. Germans say Lusatian Serbs just wanted to become Germans and thus almost disappeared from history.
I am well aware of tribes being wiped out. Native Americans are the only guerrilla force defending their own turf that has ever been defeated, and after 400 years of scalping, some colonists were a little crazy too. What would have Native American culture, arriving at a barely armed Christian America have done to them?
And post what you will, but very little history, especially in America escapes me.
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Thank you, and I am through with the convo. I am proof that many Indians were not killed. My Dad is proof, plus MANY Indians are 100% PROOF. The Yavapais up here in AZ live like fat-cats. They also try to push that mumbo jumbo that there was a 'holocaust.' which is 100% crap.
That is like saying that I am proof that their was no Holocuast perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews. I'm Jewish and I am alive, soo there-fore the holocaust didn't happen?
Personally I'm nmot that interested in American history, just my 2cents.
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They did kill a lot, but its not like they didn't try to get along. They're lucky muslims didn't actually discover it. The phenomenon is explained at length by the Japanese fellow in a couple words. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFGpO5S0cSQ
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I did research on your particular tribe or coalition of 6 different tribes (Iroquolis). Because of their war efforts they had not be exterminated like other tribes in North America. But that does not mean millions of Indians had not been murdered. You must separate those two things.
Jews were not murdered in America in WWII but it does not mean that Holocaust never happened.
In case of Kosovo, I am not worried what they teach kids in schools. They are not able to show Europe on the map let alone know history of that region.
Uhhh most of south America and central America are native American or mestizo...just saying.
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That is like saying that I am proof that their was no Holocuast perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews. I'm Jewish and I am alive, soo there-fore the holocaust didn't happen?
Personally I'm nmot that interested in American history, just my 2cents.
I really don't like this anology.
Nearly all the native americans that died after 1492 died because of disease brought from Europe. Estimates are between 85-95% of their total population died within the next 100 years because of Euro diseases, not because the white man was shoving innocent Indians in ovens as part of a genocide.
And while there were some peaceful Indians, many of them were quite savage and brutal.... just as brutal as the white men... but with weaker weapons....
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That is like saying that I am proof that their was no Holocuast perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews. I'm Jewish and I am alive, soo there-fore the holocaust didn't happen?
Personally I'm nmot that interested in American history, just my 2cents.
Tag Mehir:
I am also a Jew. My mother is a Jew. My FATHER is the American Indian. (Seneca/Iroquois)
Basically, You are saying this happened and you folks that dont believe it are 'holocaust deniers.'
Nope. NO.
There is *NO* comparison to the evil perpetrated against Jews in Germany/EU, etc as compared to Indians who FOUGHT back. The Jews had their weapons confiscated and EVERYTHING they owned was stolen from them.
They had NO knives, they didnt scalp Germans, they didnt rape Germans, they had ZERO to fight back with. NOTHING.
You cannot compare the atrocities against the Jews and say you feel something for the American Indian b/c they went through something similar. NO, they did NOT. These are all leftist talking points, I reject them.
The leftists ALSO compare the Mexican to the Jews, The blacks to the Jews, etc. LIES.
Many Indians died off because of EU diseases that most Europeans were immune to.
Indians FOUGHT back and had weapons. They were SAVAGE fighters.
STOP putting down the American Indian. They were NOT victims. NOBODY 'took' their weapons.
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Ashedina why are you so certain Columbus had a converso mother and catholic father, what are you basing on ?
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ALSO;
The American Indians were ALSO known as
"The BEST Light Cavalry In The WORLD"
Ya all better get RID of the brainwashing.
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I was just bringing an example to your logic.
And now about "fighting back". Soo what? Some Jews also fought back, that doesn't justify the Nazis does it? What if all the Jewish groups got together and fought back against the Nazis, that wouldn't make the actions by hitler (YSV) any way justified would it? Anyway, i'm willing to dropp it, it doesn't matter much for me.
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Ashedina why are you so certain Columbus had a converso mother and catholic father, what are you basing on ?
Well, Zelhar, I am going toward 50 years old, they actually taught the truth in American education when I was a child.
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In the mid 1600 population of present day Mexico dropped to 1 million....It took 350-400 years for population in conquered lands to recover and reach levels as they were before Spanish conquest.
Natives in North America still live in concentration camps.
wait hold on here. you are comparing these Native American reservations to Concentration camps..such as the ones where Jews were murdered?! I don't understand this coming from a Serbian especially.
By your philosophy, it seems to me that you believe that the early explorers to the Americas were evil and had no right to settle here. If that is your philosophy, why do you believe Kosovo, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia, etc don't have a right to exist? After all, ethnic Albanians lived in Yugoslavia...so certainly, by your philosophy of the Americas, it was wrong to include them as part of Yugoslavia and therefore, deserve a right to their own country....
Do you see the hipocracy you are feeding here?
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Well, Zelhar, I am going toward 50 years old, they actually taught the truth in American education when I was a child.
They taught you that Columbus was a Jew is American schools 30-40 years ago?
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I was just bringing an example to your logic.
And now about "fighting back". Soo what? Some Jews also fought back, that doesn't justify the Nazis does it? What if all the Jewish groups got together and fought back against the Nazis, that wouldn't make the actions by hitler (YSV) any way justified would it? Anyway, i'm willing to dropp it, it doesn't matter much for me.
Well, imo you should drop it, because you are comparing Jews to The best light cavalry in the world, the American Indian.
Jews (a small remnant) did fight back, but we all know what happened to 5,999,999 million Jews, Tahir
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Well, imo you should drop it, because you are comparing Jews to The best light cavalry in the world, the American Indian.
Jews (a small remnant) did fight back, but we all know what happened to 5,999,999 million Jews, Tahir
Last I checked it was 6,000,000 , you missed 1.
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We here in America, are repeating history, only it is Stalinist history being repeated. Which is seriously UNFRIENDLY to Jews and Christians. So, the crusades are not something I worry about or distress over. (The SAME case scenario is happening in Israel with the left. It is NOT christians that are persecuting Jews in Israel. It is the LEFTISTS/Stalinists)
IF it was Christians that were murdering Jews in America, I would fight it.
But, frankly, I just live in the here and now.
May I paraphrase?
You DO believe the crusaders were horrendous, but today, the problem aren't Christians..it's Muslims and evil leftists
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some Native American tribes were actually peaceful while others were war mongerers and didn't like invaders. The same with some explorers. Some were genociders while others tried to coexist. However, when attacked by dangerous tribes, you can't expect settlers and explorers not to fight back. Serbian Army, is that what you would do if a dangerous Albanian Muslim was fighting your country?
My father has kept many artifacts that are well over 500 yrs old. My grandmother told me the stories of my fathers people, as well as my g'great-mother.
One of the artifacts is my g-g-g-g grandmother, which is engraved in a bears tooth.
MY people, NOT YOURS got along very well with white Europeans.
SO-Basically you are calling me a liar, and that is nasty.
The "American" education system now, is full of sh*t.
Ask ANY American here.
You have TOTALLY disrespected me, my father, who DOES NOT LIE, called MY family liars, & belittled me.
I will tell you this regarding the "American" KIND 'education' bullsh*t, for this IS what they teach about the sweet, wonderful, nice, Kosovo/Bosnian Muslims:
The Kosavo/Bosnians were kind to you, and dont tell me different, because the American education system PLAINLY says that the Serbs got what they asked for when America invaded their country, killing Serb Christians over Kosovo/Bosnian Muslim/Nazis..
That is what America teaches about Serbia.
So, knock your socks off Chump.
Believe the BULLSH*T American 'education' system.
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Can I interrupt all this to get a downtown she ballin' mmmhmmmmm from all my JTF sisters and brothers?
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I am well aware of tribes being wiped out. Native Americans are the only guerrilla force defending their own turf that has ever been defeated, and after 400 years of scalping, some colonists were a little crazy too. What would have Native American culture, arriving at a barely armed Christian America have done to them?And post what you will, but very little history, especially in America escapes me.
From your posts I was thinking you were unaware of murders. They would probably to the same.
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wait hold on here. you are comparing these Native American reservations to Concentration camps..such as the ones where Jews were murdered?! I don't understand this coming from a Serbian especially.
By your philosophy, it seems to me that you believe that the early explorers to the Americas were evil and had no right to settle here. If that is your philosophy, why do you believe Kosovo, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia, etc don't have a right to exist? After all, ethnic Albanians lived in Yugoslavia...so certainly, by your philosophy of the Americas, it was wrong to include them as part of Yugoslavia and therefore, deserve a right to their own country....
Do you see the hipocracy you are feeding here?
Reservations are in fact concentration camps where you get your number, prisoners can't leave place, die out of starvation because it is the most useless land. Reservations have better conditions now after Indian population became almost non-existent. You do your research what was done to natives in Americas.
I don't think Montenegro have no right to exist. They have every right to separate from union with Serbia. I believe we are much stronger together. 99% of Serbs there actually voted to stay together with Serbia.
Croatia have right to exist but not in current borders. Historically their lands never expanded so much, but thanks to Vatican we have what we have.
Kosovo is heart and soul of our nation. We also call it Serbian Jerusalem and I believe you know what it means. That region was run over by Turks who did whatever they could to help muslim population from Albania to settle there. Communist dictator Tito did the same thing. With their immigration came terrorism and drug trafficking.
Bosnian is just another Serbian kingdom like Montenegro. Most of the Serbs there are for union with Montenegro and Serbia. However, there are two other ethnic groups. Croats support Serbs to join Serbia as they themselves want to separate and join Croatia. Muslims want to dominate Christians….
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Tag Mehir:
I am also a Jew. My mother is a Jew. My FATHER is the American Indian. (Seneca/Iroquois)
Basically, You are saying this happened and you folks that dont believe it are 'holocaust deniers.'
Nope. NO.
There is *NO* comparison to the evil perpetrated against Jews in Germany/EU, etc as compared to Indians who FOUGHT back. The Jews had their weapons confiscated and EVERYTHING they owned was stolen from them.
They had NO knives, they didnt scalp Germans, they didnt rape Germans, they had ZERO to fight back with. NOTHING.
You cannot compare the atrocities against the Jews and say you feel something for the American Indian b/c they went through something similar. NO, they did NOT. These are all leftist talking points, I reject them.
The leftists ALSO compare the Mexican to the Jews, The blacks to the Jews, etc. LIES.
Many Indians died off because of EU diseases that most Europeans were immune to.
Indians FOUGHT back and had weapons. They were SAVAGE fighters.
STOP putting down the American Indian. They were NOT victims. NOBODY 'took' their weapons.
When they compared gays to Jews in my English class, I snapped. And the next day, they turn around and say the holocaust is exaggerated. :nuke:
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Reservations are in fact concentration camps where you get your number
This is not truth. :spam:
Reservations make billions of dollars with casino money that the Indians pay ZERO taxes on.
Where you are getting this information is just a lie.
People WILLINGLY live on reservations.
Jews did NOT want to live in the ghettos to get gassed and murdered.
I cant see HOW ANY person can compare the Native American warriors to the Jews in Germany & EU.
Un Be Friggin Lievable
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When they compared gays to Jews in my English class, I snapped. And the next day, they turn around and say the holocaust is exaggerated. :nuke:
I feel sad that you have to endure such insanity. I truly feel bad. I wish I would have done more as a younger person. I have only been involved in this insanity since 1989.
I cant believe that they would now compare Jews (many religious for the most part) in Germany to queers. That is just an abomination.
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May I paraphrase?
You DO believe the crusaders were horrendous, but today, the problem aren't Christians..it's Muslims and evil leftists
TY, Dr Dan ^-^
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some Native American tribes were actually peaceful while others were war mongerers and didn't like invaders. The same with some explorers. Some were genociders while others tried to coexist. However, when attacked by dangerous tribes, you can't expect settlers and explorers not to fight back. Serbian Army, is that what you would do if a dangerous Albanian Muslim was fighting your country?
Yes, Dr Dan, exactly. They FOUGHT BACK. The Indians could be seriously savage like when fighting.
With NO formal military training, they were called the BEST light cavalry in the WORLD.
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Anyway, this was a fun debate, thank you.
I have to go now.
David Ben Moshe says to stop and Chaim has asked me to not get upset. We have songs that we are working on to get RID of Obama for the JTF and my blog.
I only know a lot about the Native American because of my fathers family. My father is a warrior-type man. He was a NAVY man, he is a hunter and lives off of the land.
He really hates it when people defame the Native by telling these absurdities how they/we were victims.
He hates it, I hate it and it is not right to distort history.
(DONT ask me how the hell an American Portuguese Jewish woman (My mom) met up with an Iroquois man, still cant figure THAT one out....)
About Columbus: When I was in 7th grade, we visited DC, that was probably 1978 or before, cant remember. They had archived the journey of Columbus. The #1 reason for Columbus's voyage was to go to the Indies, I think most Americans know this. But, one of his quotes was that he felt 'divinely lead by G-d.'
When we studied on his genetics, ethnicity, (I actually had FABULOUS teachers) it was just common knowledge information that Columbus was from a home that was Jewish and Catholic. CNN is not reporting anything 'new.'
Anyway, I cant talk anymore.
I dont want to make David and Chaim upset.
So, Shabbat שָׁלוֹם
LOVE YA ALL! :love:
ESPECIALLY Miss Ruby
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LOVE YA ALL! :love:
ESPECIALLY Miss Ruby
:-*
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Shabbat Shalom!
I don't know why you get so worked up about these things. Many people have differing opinions on topics. I think most of us believe you. I know several people who have native American blood and they dont harbor any hatred of our country.