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Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 25, 2014, 05:05:30 PM

Title: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 25, 2014, 05:05:30 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFYAP_HBom0
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 25, 2014, 08:06:01 PM
The OU has finally certified kitniyot for American Sfardic Jews.

I bought a rice mix to eat on Passover and canned vegetables (Such as corn, corned green beans, etc...).

http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/in-time-for-passover-2013-ou-kosher-announces-new-ou-kitniyot-certification-symbol/

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 25, 2014, 08:08:12 PM
They showed some Oriental eating rice on that video. Wouldn't it be cool if there was Kosher For Passover sushi? What's the issue? They could use rice vinegar. I'm sure it's possible. As a side note, they even have imitation soy sauce for Ashkenazim now.

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 25, 2014, 09:34:14 PM
One can always make Sushi for themselves. Perhaps some of the Sushi places will be open. Will see if it will happen. Where do you live?
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 25, 2014, 09:36:00 PM
Also one can use lists for Passah on Kosher LePessah foods, even those not certified as such by the specific organizations.
 Very good forum with different products and can ask them as well.

http://www.kashrut.org/forum/

 Also list

http://www.kashrut.org/pesach/

 (PS if you can't get to the link, for example you cant make a small donation and such, PM me and I might be able to send you the link to the list).
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 26, 2014, 01:23:33 AM
I don't live in Israel. I doubt kosher sushi places would be open on Passover in the US. Besides, there are 3 days of Chol HaMoed (Besides Shabbat) with one being Erev Shabbat and the other being Erev Yom Tov. Next year there are 4 days of Chol HaMoed (Monday-Thursday) and in Israel 5 days of Chol HaMoed (Sunday-Thursday).


Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Sveta on March 26, 2014, 01:44:58 AM
Where does quinoa fall into regarding Pesach?
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 26, 2014, 01:47:59 AM
Quote from: IsraeliHeart on March 26, 2014, 01:44:58 AM
Where does quinoa fall into regarding Pesach?


The OU just ruled that it's not Kitniyot so the question is now solved. Every year it would come up on whether it's permitted but the OU finally decided that it is definitely not kitniyot. So even Askenazim can eat it.

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Sveta on March 26, 2014, 01:50:46 AM
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael on March 26, 2014, 01:47:59 AM


The OU just ruled that it's not Kitniyot so the question is now solved. Every year it would come up on whether it's permitted but the OU finally decided that it is definitely not kitniyot. So even Askenazim can eat it.

Oh good, I think I might have heard something like a while ago but I wasn't sure.

I heard some people were trying to make sushi out of quinoa so maybe that could be a possibility. As for rice, people can shred cauliflower and cook it, making like rice. It really is like rice, I had it before- but not sure how it would work in sushi.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: ChabadKahanist on March 26, 2014, 07:58:45 AM
To all you Kitnyot bashers I know for fact that Rabbi Kahane,ZT"L,HY"D,ZYA did NOT eat kitnyot.
I am not a Sephardi & I will continue not to eat it,however I do let me wife prepare it in seperate Keilim for her family if they come Pesach.
I do this only for shalom bayit,but if I had my way it would not be in my house altogether.
I am an Ashkenazi & as such much stick to this.
I also do not eat geborokts (wet matzos,matzo balls, matzo brei,etc.)
Having said that it is not chametz & Mizrachim & Sephardim should continue to enjoy it.
FYI,Morroccans also do not eat it.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 26, 2014, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: ChabadKahanist on March 26, 2014, 07:58:45 AM
To all you Kitnyot bashers I know for fact that Rabbi Kahane,ZT"L,HY"D,ZYA did NOT eat kitnyot.

 Imagine that he did. Unfortunately already with the eyes and fingers pointed at him I don't think he could have afforded to (at least publicly) eat Kitniyot and not be accused of being a "reformer" or "conservative" (in the Religious sense). I don't think he wanted nor needed this extra off topic accusations and focus. His plans were different and focused on different issues.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: edu on March 26, 2014, 04:36:43 PM
Regardless of what you hold if this is or is not a binding custom, one should be aware that rice in any case according to Rabbi Herschel Schachter needs a Kosher For Passover Hechsher, because some modern rice products have wheat (chametz) supplements.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 26, 2014, 05:23:47 PM
We don't eat kitniyot on Pesach.... Simple as that... It is a custom which virtually all Ashkenazi Jews keep. I have Sephardi friends who do eat it, and I have no problem with that.

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 26, 2014, 05:26:36 PM
Here is an explanation, for those unfamiliar with what Kitniyot is..


http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/Kitniyot/

What is Kitniyot?

Authored by the Orthodox Union. Copyright © 2008 Orthodox Union

Reprinted with permission of the Orthodox Union. Origional article is here

In addition to the Torah’s restrictions on owning, eating and benefiting from chametz, an Ashkenazic minhag developed in the middle ages to not eat certain foods known collectively as “kitnios”. The Mishnah Berurah (453:6 & 464:5) cites three reasons for the minhag (a) kitnios is harvested and processed in the same manner as chametz, (b) it is ground into flour and baked just like chametz [so people may mistakenly believe that if they can eat kitnios, they can also eat chametz], (c) it may have chametz grains mixed into it [so people who eat kitnios may inadvertently be eating chametz]. Although initially there were those who objected to the minhag, it has become an accepted part of Pesach in all Ashkenazic communities.

Which foods are kitnios

The earlier Poskim mention that rice, buckwheat/kasha, millet, beans, lentils, peas, sesame seeds and mustard are included in the minhag (see Beis Yosef O.C. 453, Rema 453:1 & 464:1 and Mishnah Berurah 453:4, 7 & 11) and it is generally accepted that corn (see below), green beans, snow peas, sugar-snap peas, chickpeas, soybeans, sunflower and poppy seeds are also forbidden. On the other hand, potatoes (see below), coffee, tea, garlic, nuts, radishes and olives and not treated as kitnios (see Sha’arei Teshuvah 453:1, Chayei Adam 127:7 and others). Iggeros Moshe (O.C. III:63) assumes that peanuts are not kitnios but notes that some have a custom to be machmir. Some other examples of foods which are or aren’t kitnios will be noted below and in the “Derivatives of kitnios” section.

Iggeros Moshe explains that the minhag to not eat kitnios developed differently than other minhagim and therefore rules that only foods which we know were specifically included in the minhag are forbidden. [See also Chok Yaakov 453:9 who makes a similar point]. With this he explains the generally accepted custom to not consider potatoes to be kitnios even though logically they should be, as follows: the minhag of kitnios can be dated back at least until Maharil, who died in 1427, and potatoes didn’t come to Europe until the 16th century, so potatoes were a “new” vegetable which wasn’t included in the minhag. This logic has also been suggested as a basis for permitting the consumption on Pesach of a grain called quinoa. The thinking is that since quinoa, which has only recently been introduced to the Northern Hemisphere from its native South America, was never considered kitnios, it remains permitted on Pesach even though logically it should be included in the minhag. While this logic is sound, it is noteworthy that quinoa is often packaged in plants that also package wheat and barley, and it is possible that those grains (i.e. chametz) could get mixed into the quinoa. Therefore, before using quinoa on Pesach, someone who knows how to distinguish between these grains should check the quinoa to ascertain that it doesn’t contain any wheat or barley. An important “exception” to the aforementioned rule that “new” vegetables aren’t included in the minhag, is corn/maize which Mishnah Berurah 453:4 and others rule is kitnios even though it was introduced to Europe after the minhag had already begun.

As a rule, spices are not considered to be kitnios and Rema 453:1 makes a point of noting that anise/dill and coriander are not kitnios. Taz 462:3 notes that all spices should be checked before Pesach to establish that no chametz-grains are mixed in, and elsewhere Taz (453:1) specifically notes that anise and coriander seeds should be thoroughly checked. In addition, Taz and Magen Avraham (453:3) discuss whether fennel, cumin and caraway seeds (i.e. three variations of “Kimmel” ) can possibly be checked (and used) for Pesach. Thus, as a rule, spices are not kitnios but require special care to guarantee that no chametz-grains are mixed into them. Some hashgochos consider fenugreek to be kitnios while others do not, and the surprising ramifications of this question will be noted towards the end of the article.

Derivatives of kitnios

The earlier Poskim, including Rema, clearly indicate that oil made from kitnios is forbidden on Pesach, but some of the later Poskim suggest that such oil may be permitted because some of the original reasons for the minhag don’t apply to the oil extracted from kitnios. It is generally accepted to follow the stricter opinion in this matter, but the lenient opinion is sometimes considered as one factor in a larger decision.

Therefore, on Pesach one may not use corn or soybean oil (a.k.a. “vegetable oil” ), and some do not use peanut oil either (see above regarding peanuts). Oil from olives, palm, coconut and walnuts are acceptable for Pesach use because the fruits they are extracted from is not kitnios. Minchas Yitzchok (III:138:2) suggests that cottonseed oil is kitnios, but in a subsequent teshuvah (IV:114:3) he reconsiders this position (see also Mikra’ai Kodesh, Pesach II:60:2); in the United States cottonseed oil is generally not considered to be kitnios but in Eretz Yisroel there are those who refrain from using it.

Canola oil was first approved for food use in the United States in 1985 and there are those who therefore suggested that it is a “new” item which shouldn’t be included in the minhag, as per Iggeros Moshe cited above. However, the fault with this line of reasoning is that “Canola oil” is actually “Rapeseed oil” (a.k.a. colza oil) which has been used for centuries in Europe. [“Canola oil” is rapeseed oil specially bred to have less erucic acid (a suspected cause of heart disease) and therefore only this better variation of rapeseed oil is approved for food use in the USA]. In fact, Avnei Nezer (373 & 533) and Maharsham (I:183) specifically mention rapeseed and its oil in their discussions of kitnios. It is also noteworthy that canola often grows near oats, and therefore even those who might argue that canola isn’t kitnios would agree that all of the oats must be removed before the oil is extracted from the canola.

In recent decades, scientists have learnt to manipulate microorganisms to create and convert all types of enzymes and foods. This has had dramatic effects on the world of kashrus, including kitnios. What happens if one takes bland-tasting corn, and uses enzymes to liquefy and sweeten it – does the resulting corn syrup remain forbidden as kitnios? Is the halacha possibly more lenient if one takes the aforementioned corn syrup and uses enzymes to convert it to sour-tasting ascorbic acid?

These questions depend on a machlokes Rishonim cited in Mishnah Berurah 216:7 regarding the kashrus of musk – a fragrant byproduct of blood which is found in the abdominal gland of the male musk deer. Some Rishonim hold that since blood is non-kosher, musk is also forbidden, but others holds that once the blood is nishtaneh – changed – it loses its original identity and becomes an innocuous kosher liquid. Mishnah Berurah rules that as relates to issurim d’rabannan one may be lenient.

Accordingly, some hashgochos hold that since kitnios is merely a minhag (i.e. even less than an issur d’rabannan) one can be lenient and certify kitnios which was truly nishtaneh. In order to qualify as “nishtaneh” the kitnios must go through a significant change in taste; therefore in the cases noted above, they would certify the ascorbic acid due to the dramatic change in taste from sweet to sour but wouldn’t permit the corn syrup since it isn’t changed/nishtaneh “enough” from the corn which it came from. This rationale is the basis for some hashgachos’ certification and/or acceptance of certain productions of MSG, aspartame and xanthan gum for Pesach. Some argue that Mishnah Berurah’s ruling is limited to cases of b’dieved and doesn’t justify the l’chatchilah creation/certification of such an item, and others argue that nishtaneh may be limited to cases where the forbidden item becomes inedible in the middle of its conversion to the “new” item. We will see below that even those who take the strict position in this matter generally agree that foods created with these ingredients are b’dieved permitted on Pesach.

Halachos of kitnios

The minhag to not eat kitnios begins on Erev Pesach at the same time that one may not eat chametz (Shevet HaLevi III:31 citing Chok Yaakov 471:2 and others). Although one may not eat kitnios, one may own and derive benefit from kitnios. Therefore, on Pesach one may keep cans of sweet corn in their property or feed millet to their parrot. Additionally, children, people who are ill, and people whose diet is otherwise restricted and must eat kitnios, are excluded from the minhag and may do so after consulting with a Rav. This halacha is quite relevant to baby formulas and nutritional supplements (e.g. Ensure) which invariably contain kitnios, and are usually used by people who have few non-kitnios choices, if any. When such foods are used on Pesach they should be prepared in special non-Pesach and non-chametz utensils, which should not be washed with the Pesach dishes. [It must be noted that although the halacha is quite lenient in permitting children and the infirm to consume kitnios, the halacha is quite strict regarding the consumption of chametz, and one must therefore be sure that the product is truly chametz-free before consuming it. The subject of determining whether an item is merely kitnios or if it possibly contains chametz is beyond the scope of this article and will IY”H be dealt with separately].

Kitnios is batel b’rov, which means that if someone accidentally put kitnios into their Pesach food, the food is b’dieved permitted assuming the food contains more non-kitnios than kitnios (Rema 453:1 as per Mishnah Berurah 453:9). This means that although the food may have a pronounced taste of kitnios, the food is permitted (unless there are recognizable pieces of kitnios which haven’t been removed). Therefore, if a beverage is sweetened with aspartame made of kitnios shenishtaneh, even those people who hold that aspartame is forbidden (as explained above) may drink the beverage because the aspartame is batel b’rov in the other ingredients. Similarly, we have seen that there is a disagreement as to whether fenugreek is kitnios. Nonetheless, even those who follow the strict approach may consume maple syrup which is flavored with fenugreek (as it often is) because it is batel b’rov. Thus, although we’ve seen a number of disagreements as to whether certain foods are or aren’t kitnios, those disagreements are limited to one who wants to consume the actual item (or a hashgachah certifying someone else who is intentionally putting the ingredient into a food), but these disagreements rarely affect consumers.

Other Minhagim

In addition to the well-known minhag of not eating kitnios, the Rema (467:8) cites customs to not eat honey, raisins, dried fruit, sugar, saffron and cloves, and other Poskim cite numerous other customs from specific communities. Many of these minhagim are limited to cases where the person doesn’t know for sure that the product doesn’t contain chametz, and therefore many of these minhagim are not practiced nowadays because the hashgachah on the food guarantees that it is chametz-free. As with all matters of halacha, one who is unsure as to whether a family or community custom remains in effect, should consult with their Rav.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 26, 2014, 06:46:53 PM
Quote from: ChabadKahanist on March 26, 2014, 07:58:45 AM
To all you Kitnyot bashers I know for fact that Rabbi Kahane,ZT"L,HY"D,ZYA did NOT eat kitnyot.


We don't bash kitniyot. We eat it.

Maybe you mean bashing the anti-kitniyot stance.

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 26, 2014, 06:52:24 PM
Quote from: ChabadKahanist on March 26, 2014, 07:58:45 AM
To all you Kitnyot bashers I know for fact that Rabbi Kahane,ZT"L,HY"D,ZYA did NOT eat kitnyot.
I am not a Sephardi & I will continue not to eat it,however I do let me wife prepare it in seperate Keilim for her family if they come Pesach.


Does she eat it? Doesn't a wife have to take her husband's customs?

What about a divorced woman? My mom is Ashkenazic and my dad is Sfardic and they're divorced. My mom isn't religious and says she eats kitniyot. Is she allowed to eat it or does a divorced women have to go back to her original customs from before she was married?

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Sveta on March 27, 2014, 12:16:32 AM
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael on March 26, 2014, 06:52:24 PM
My mom is Ashkenazic and my dad is Sfardic and they're divorced. My mom isn't religious and says she eats kitniyot. Is she allowed to eat it or does a divorced women have to go back to her original customs from before she was married?

I heard once you got Sfardic, there is no going back.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: ChabadKahanist on March 27, 2014, 12:36:39 AM
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael on March 26, 2014, 06:52:24 PM


Does she eat it? Doesn't a wife have to take her husband's customs?

What about a divorced woman? My mom is Ashkenazic and my dad is Sfardic and they're divorced. My mom isn't religious and says she eats kitniyot. Is she allowed to eat it or does a divorced women have to go back to her original customs from before she was married?
No she doesn't & your mom can revert tp hir original customs once divorced.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Sveta on March 27, 2014, 12:45:58 AM
I'm sorry, I guess my source was wrong. I heard this from an Ashkenazi man who decided to follow the Sfardic customs. He told me he was not able to go back anymore once he chose Sfardic customs.

My apologies
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 27, 2014, 11:33:34 AM
Quote from: ChabadKahanist on March 27, 2014, 12:36:39 AM
No she doesn't & your mom can revert tp hir original customs once divorced.


Is a divorced Ashkenazic woman that was married to a Sfardic man allowed to continue eating kitniyot?

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: ChabadKahanist on March 28, 2014, 12:20:47 AM
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael on March 27, 2014, 11:33:34 AM


Is a divorced Ashkenazic woman that was married to a Sfardic man allowed to continue eating kitniyot?
This I am not sure but it is quite possible.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 12:23:01 AM
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael on March 27, 2014, 11:33:34 AM


Is a divorced Ashkenazic woman that was married to a Sfardic man allowed to continue eating kitniyot?

 Yes, as can an Askenasi women married to an askenasi man.  ;)
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael on March 27, 2014, 11:33:34 AM


Is a divorced Ashkenazic woman that was married to a Sfardic man allowed to continue eating kitniyot?

If she wants to be accepted back in the Ashkenazi community she should again keep the minhagim of the Ashkenazi. I believe this is the rule concerning just about every minhag there is, including the nusach to daven with...

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 12:31:32 AM
Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 12:23:01 AM
Yes, as can an Askenasi women married to an askenasi man.  ;)

Why would they? Ashkenazi do not eat Kitniyot, and no matter how much you want them to, they will not...

Tag, I gotta say I am very glad you are not among my community... You would not fit in with your constant harping on these kinds of thing.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 12:34:46 AM
If you don't believe me, read what Machon Mamre says about it...


http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/halakhah.htm

Minhag:  A Custom with the Status of Law

A minhag is a custom that evolved for worthy religious reasons and has continued long enough to become a binding religious practice.  For example, the second, extra day of holidays was originally instituted as a gezeirah, so that people outside of Israel, who were uncertain about the exact date of a holiday, would not accidentally violate the holiday's mitzvot.  After the mathematical calendar was instituted and there was no doubt about the days, the added second day was not necessary.  The rabbis considered ending the practice at that time, but decided to continue it as a binding custom (minhag).

It is important to note that these "customs" are a binding part of halakhah, just like a mitzvah, a takkanah, or a gezeirah.

The word "minhag" is also used in a looser sense, to indicate a community or an individual's customary way of doing some religious thing.  For example, it may be the minhag in one synagogue to stand while reciting a certain prayer, while in another synagogue it is the minhag to sit during that prayer.  Even in this looser sense, it is generally recommended that a person follow his own minhag, even when visiting another community.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 12:44:17 AM
Muman- yea, all true. I am not against Minhagim but their are 2 issues involved. 1) If the Minhag to begin with is valid and 2) and bigger issue is when is a minhag a minhag?- Meaning what defines a Minhag, family tradition or the PLACE of one's local. If you really check the sources, REAL MINHAG means the minhag of the locality- Minhag HaMakom. Check it in the Talmudh where it is discussed. This is the Halacha essentially. And we aren't supposed to even have "Askenasi, Sefardi, Teimani etc." all living in one location (say city or town) and all having different Beit Din's and minhagim. This is the real way in actuality.
 About the 2 day Yom Tov or wearing a head covering for example these are Minhagim of the WORLD and almost every community. Therfore it is binding upon us (also more details involved).
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 12:45:18 AM
Here is what Talmud mesechet Pesachim 50 (no coincidence) says about what I am talking about:

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Pesachim.pdf

C H A P T E R I V
 
 MISHNAH. WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM TO DO WORK ON THE EVE OF PASSOVER UNTIL MIDDAY ONE MAY DO [WORK]; WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM NOT TO DO [WORK], ONE MAY NOT DO [WORK]. HE WHO GOES FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK, ON FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO WORK, WE LAY UPON HIM THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHENCE HE DEPARTED AND THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHITHER HE HAS GONE;

AND A MAN MUST NOT ACT DIFFERENTLY [FROM LOCAL CUSTOM] ON ACCOUNT OF THE QUARRELS [WHICH WOULD ENSUE]. SIMILARLY, HE WHO TRANSPORTS SABBATICAL YEAR PRODUCE FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED OR FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED,1 IS BOUND TO REMOVE IT.2 R. JUDAH SAID: ‘DO YOU TOO GO OUT AND BRING [PRODUCE] FOR YOURSELF.3
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 12:47:28 AM
+ Muman, I was actually kidding around in the last part. Didn't you see the wink. I was kinda poking fun so relax.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 12:48:50 AM
The local custom in most Shuls where I live is Ashkenazi based... I know some Sephardic Jews who keep their own customs (my friend Davens from his fathers Sepherdic siddur)...

I am saying that at least where I am the custom of the majority of the community is according to Ashkenazic custom. So it would be against the spirit of Pesachim 50 to eat kitniyot (according to my understanding)...

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 12:49:30 AM
Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 12:47:28 AM
+ Muman, I was actually kidding around in the last part. Didn't you see the wink. I was kinda poking fun so relax.

I get it now..
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 01:02:50 AM
From what you quoted- 


C H A P T E R I V
 
 MISHNAH. WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM TO DO WORK ON THE EVE OF PASSOVER UNTIL MIDDAY ONE MAY DO [WORK]; WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM NOT TO DO [WORK], ONE MAY NOT DO [WORK]. HE WHO GOES FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK, ON FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO WORK, WE LAY UPON HIM THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHENCE HE DEPARTED AND THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHITHER HE HAS GONE;

AND A MAN MUST NOT ACT DIFFERENTLY [FROM LOCAL CUSTOM] ON ACCOUNT OF THE QUARRELS [WHICH WOULD ENSUE]. SIMILARLY, HE WHO TRANSPORTS SABBATICAL YEAR PRODUCE FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED OR FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED,1 IS BOUND TO REMOVE IT.2 R. JUDAH SAID: ‘DO YOU TOO GO OUT AND BRING [PRODUCE] FOR YOURSELF.3

 This in actuality proves that its the Minhag of the place and not of the father necessarily. UNLESS perhaps one can make the claim that today the Minhag of the place is to follow one's father's minhag. Or its the custom of this or that place to follow one's father's custom.


 Also another issue is if it was correct in the first place to establish this custom (assuming so because a custom made by the people isn't necessarily on par then with a custom made by the Hachamim and the question would be if more Hachamim agreed to it or more Hachamim disagreed to it, which if I remember the video claimed that more or the majority were opposed to this custom and the Rav quotes a number of Askenasi Hachamim who opposed it)  if it is binding upon a local (say America) over which this custom was not established in, but carried over. And would or does such a thing carry on from a different local or not.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 01:11:44 AM
+ another issues especially in Eress Yisrael. And this is known especially with Rav Ovadia Yosef ZTL and his sons who say that at the very least those who are Baal Tishuva should follow "Sefardic" (meaning Shulhan Aruch) customs. This also happened to a large extent to the greater Sefardi or Mizrachi communities. Halachot of the Ben Ish Chai for example aren't followed (as much although their still are people who do) and others as well including local minhagim (of different localities) but instead people adopted the Shulhan Aruch and its rulings over time in Eress Yisrael more strongly and in Hutz Laaretz as well especially unto "Sefardi" or Mizrachi communities all under 1 banner of being "Sefardim".

 In theory they advocate that all Jews adopt the Shulhan Aruch especially in Israel because the Rav Yosef Karo is the "Marah daAtra" of the locality. In theory they would be correct and have a strong basis, but in actuality this is not what happened and Askenasim for the most part have kept their customs from their localities from Europe.
 Perhaps (and I hope this happens), the different Rabbanim and Hachamim and communities get together and at least on the bigger issues work to have a unified Beit Din where their is 1 central court instead of what we have today with many little one's and a whole mess. In total actuality under that circumstances would then a Minhag that they proclaim would be binding.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 01:24:19 AM
My original point in this was that a woman who was originally of Ashkenazic origin, who was divorced from a Sephardic man whom she adopted his customs according to the 'rules of minhag', and she wanted to return to the Ashkenazic community, she should return to observing the custom of not eating Kitniyot... That was my point.

I originally davened (and when I daven at home I davened) from the Artscroll Ashkenazi siddur. But since I have been spending more time with Chabad, I have become accustomed to davening according to Chabad custom. Obviously for the most part they are the same, but there are some things which are different.

Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Binyamin Yisrael on March 28, 2014, 01:28:08 AM
I usually pray the Ashekenazic prayers because I use the ArtScroll siddur at synagogue. But my own ArtScroll siddur is Sefarad (Thought not really Sfardic but similar to Chabad. Chabad says Nusach HaAri is for all Jews, like a 13th tribe. They said all Jews prayed according to tribe but now we don't know which tribe we are in so they pray Nusach HaAri.).

I do the Mizrachi Kiddush from a siddur from Shas with Rabbi Kaduri on the front cover. But I use an Ashkenazic ArtScroll bencher for Birkat HaMazon because that's what I learned from and if I use the Sfardic one, I will take longer because the Asheknezic one is like reading the Shema, where the words guide me but I can say parts without looking at the page. I also use the ArtScroll Hagaddah because it's user friendly. Before that I used the Kahanist Hagaddah by Rabbi Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane printed by HaIvri.

But for what I can eat on Passover, I go by the Sfardic custom and also regarding when to get a haircut or shave during the Omer, meaning only after Lag B'Omer, not on the day itself. But I'll eat whatever kosher meat there is while some only will eat Bet Yosef meat.

Generally I think Jews are Jews and we shouldn't care as much about differnet customs. I guess because I'm biologically half and half and grew up in the US were the Ashkenazic community is dominant. But I don't speak their Hebrew and I don't pronounce words like an American either. I pronounce it with a correct Israeli accent. I also like that Sfaradim lead the service outloud and you can say Amen while Ashkenazim magically read a whole page in a few seconds and then say the last words out loud. I doubt if they really say every single word or if they are just pretending.

I also like the Sfardic high holiday tunes but the Sfardic minyan near me is too far to walk to in a reasonable amount of time but sometimes I go there for Selichot. Also, it's outside of the my eruv but you can connect to their eruv if you walk in a tunnel under the tracks in a train station. Both eruvs are bordered by the tracks.


Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on March 28, 2014, 01:29:22 AM
Rabbi Brovender gives a short discussion of changing nusach...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RczxTA1Bmgo
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 10:37:14 AM
I daven "Sefardi" but mostly out of convenience and not because it is inherently better (or worse) then the other Nusuhaot. If I happen to be at a place that doesn't have a Sefardi Siddur or something I would and do take an Askenasi siddur be it the regular Askenasi one's or "Sefarad" which is mainly Hassidis siddur that somewhat combines Sefardi and Askenasi.

 I will probably switch to Nusah Eress Yisrael in the future (Would like and need to get a copy first and possibly translation as well because I like to know what I am saying).

 The bencher I use many times is the Nusah Eress Yisrael one. And I know and focus (many times) on its meaning as opposed to the regular Sefardi one that is long and I don't know its meaning (hard to focus).
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Sveta on April 11, 2014, 12:26:52 AM
Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on March 28, 2014, 10:37:14 AM
I will probably switch to Nusah Eress Yisrael in the future

Hmm, I never heard of this. I daven Ashkenaz (Artscroll) although I was thinking of going Tehillat Hashem. How is Eress Yisrael? Where can I look into it?

I'm just so used to Artscroll.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on April 11, 2014, 12:44:52 AM
Quote from: IsraeliHeart on April 11, 2014, 12:26:52 AM
Hmm, I never heard of this. I daven Ashkenaz (Artscroll) although I was thinking of going Tehillat Hashem. How is Eress Yisrael? Where can I look into it?

I'm just so used to Artscroll.

Why switch Nusach?
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: ChabadKahanist on April 11, 2014, 12:46:55 AM
Quote from: IsraeliHeart on April 11, 2014, 12:26:52 AM
Hmm, I never heard of this. I daven Ashkenaz (Artscroll) although I was thinking of going Tehillat Hashem. How is Eress Yisrael? Where can I look into it?

I'm just so used to Artscroll.
I think he means Nusach Eretz Yisrael.
That is put together by Rabbi Bar Chayim of the Machon Shilo.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Sveta on April 11, 2014, 01:05:47 AM
Quote from: muman613 on April 11, 2014, 12:44:52 AM
Why switch Nusach?

Not necessarily switch in a way. I am too used to Artscroll to just switch, I love my Artscroll. But I usually go to two shuls and one is a Chabad shul where they use Tehillat Hashem. I feel very out of place when I use Artscroll there. I use Artscroll in the other shul without any problems.

As for why look into getting another siddur, I actually have 5, two of those are siddurim for women, one is a  Persian one that I have as a collector for my library. I want to have as many as possible, not just siddurim  but several books.
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on April 11, 2014, 01:38:44 AM
Quote from: IsraeliHeart on April 11, 2014, 01:05:47 AM
Not necessarily switch in a way. I am too used to Artscroll to just switch, I love my Artscroll. But I usually go to two shuls and one is a Chabad shul where they use Tehillat Hashem. I feel very out of place when I use Artscroll there. I use Artscroll in the other shul without any problems.

As for why look into getting another siddur, I actually have 5, two of those are siddurim for women, one is a  Persian one that I have as a collector for my library. I want to have as many as possible, not just siddurim  but several books.

Cool,

I use Artscroll Ashkenazi at home... But I usually spend Shabbat with my Chabad minyan, and use their Tehillat Hashem siddurim.

Aside from some minor differences (for instance I notice we don't say Adon Olam at Chabad), and the addition of 'l'chai olamim' at Chabad) I have no trouble saying the tefillah.

Haderet v'haemunah l'chai olamim.
Habinah v'habracha l'chai olamim.
Hagavah v'hag'dulah l'chai olamim.
Hadeah v'hadibur l'chai olamim.
Hahod v'hehadar l'chai olamim.
Haviud v'havatikut l'chai olamim.
Hazach v'hazohar l'chai olamim.
Hachayil v'hachosen l'chai olamim.
Hateches v'hatohar l'chai olamim.
Hayichud v'hayir'ah l'chai olamim.
Haketer v'hakavod l'chai olamim.
Ham'lucha v'hamemshalah l'chai olamim.
Hanoi v'hanetzach l'chai olamim.
Hasigui v'hasegev l'chai olamim.
Haoz v'ha'anavah l'chai olamim.
Hap'dut v'hap'er l'chai olamim.
Hatz'vi v'hatzedek l'chai olamim.
Hak'riah v'hak'dushah l'chai olamim.
Haron v'harom'mut l'chai olamim.
Hashir v'hashevach l'chai olamim.
Hat'hilah v'hatif'eret l'chai olamim.[/quote]
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: muman613 on April 11, 2014, 01:40:20 AM
I like the tune of this tefillah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_8U17X9078
Title: Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
Post by: Sveta on April 11, 2014, 02:17:29 AM
Quote from: muman613 on April 11, 2014, 01:40:20 AM
I like the tune of this tefillah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_8U17X9078

Awesome!!