JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: WhiteWolf on October 11, 2007, 12:20:05 AM
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The term Nazi is a term that is used a lot on this board.
I'm interested to know what term means in the modern world.
How would you define the term NAZI?
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Nazi? Evil murdering fascists, that considers America, Jews, Israel, and the West/Europe as enemies, with the intention of slaughtering us and taking over the world.
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Nazi? Evil murdering fascists, that considers America, Jews, Israel, and the West/Europe as enemies, with the intention of slaughtering us and taking over the world.
The problem I have is this.
In England if you ask people who are the modern day Nazis they will say the British Nationalist Party.
A party that believes that Muslims want to take over the world and want to kick em out of Europe.
In America or Israel if you ask people who are the modern day Nazis they will answer Muslims.
Can they both be Nazis when they believe the exact opposite thing?
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A sadistic, sadomasochistic piece of excrement who hates Jewish people.
One who forms any alliance with other Jew-hating piece of excrement.
One who promotes Jew-hatred under the any guise, whether patriotism, facism, communism, equality, or any political viewpoint.
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A sadistic, sadomasochistic piece of excrement who hates Jewish people.
One who forms any alliance with other Jew-hating piece of excrement.
One who promotes Jew-hatred under the any guise, whether patriotism, facism, communism, equality, or any political viewpoint.
Well the BNP was the only British party who supported Israel in the war it had, about a year or so back.
So would you consider them a Nazi party?
See the N in Nazi does mean Nationalist.
But surely you're against Nationalism?
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A sadistic, sadomasochistic piece of excrement who hates Jewish people.
One who forms any alliance with other Jew-hating piece of excrement.
One who promotes Jew-hatred under the any guise, whether patriotism, facism, communism, equality, or any political viewpoint.
Well the BNP was the only British party who supported Israel in the war it had, about a year or so back.
So would you consider them a Nazi party?
See the N in Nazi does mean Nationalist.
But surely you're against Nationalism?
No, we would not consider the BNP as a Nazi party, that is unless the party espouses Nazi ideology. I'm not familiar enough with the group though.
A Nazi is someone who supports either political or religious fascism, has a concept superiority over other peoples and "leibenstraum" and has the desire to conquer and oppress inferior people in order to glorify their ideology whether it be based on race, religion, or something else. Nazis support cult of personality fascistic dictators, believe in Jewish conspiracy theories, and share the desire to exterminate the Jewish people who supposedly will prevent them from achieving their goals.
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Someone who hates another person for no reason whatsoever and wants to bring about their demise... This is a Nazi
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I would have said anyone who hates Jews for any reason, but Raise Your Fist has a point.
But... I don't think someone who hates blacks but not Jews (for instance) is a Nazi. So there are limits to his definition.
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Nazi is also used as slur used especialy by the left against it's oponents on right; just as a term fascist; which for radical leftist is anyboody beliving in judeo-chrsitian G-d, strong traditional familly and any form of patriotism. Nazi is soembody who belives master race, nation or religion, subjocation and extermination of other "lesser" people including but not exclusivly Jews, word conquest and regulated economy based on state and corporational monopolies he's aginst free maket; and as general rule is anti American and anti Israeli in broad sense not only current goverments; Today they're secular neonazis in the west and A-rab or Turkish nationalists ; and religius pisslamic nazis ewerywhere; some far leftists in their self hatred towards wetern culture and white people are nearing the old shool nazi from the other extreem.
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I think Ultra understood how the term is misused and asked for the real meaning.
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Re: "...How would you define the term NAZI?..."
A follower of a totalitarian ideology practicing extreme nationalism combined with socialism, to the exclusive benefit of only one ethnic/national group, about whom a completely false mythos (The Aryan Ubermensch--White Teutonic Superman member of the Aryan "Master Race") is believed and enforced as "religion"; overriding all previous accepted and documentable religious, historical, social, national, military, scientific, and academic thinking.
The "Aryan Mythos" is centered upon the demonization of the Jewish People, wherein all that is problematic in life throughout all of history is blamed solely on the Jew.
The success of the Nazi Movement, according to its doctrine, is possible only with the complete eradication of the Jew from the entire earth.
The "National Socialist Worker's Party" practices the "cult of personality", centered upon the "Der Fuhrerprinzip":
The entire nation is united upon the belief of shared "blood and soil" against any and all other nations, led by just one man who is the nation's leader, primary philosopher, military strategist, and dictator of the entirety of governmental, legal, and social order.
All actions and orders in Nazism are "from the top down" (Fuhrer's orders being carried out by subordinates in a typical pyramid structure downwards), and all responsibilities to the Fuhrer are "from the bottom upwards" (each subordinate directly accountable to his superior above).
Needless to say, in such a society dissent and alternative worldviews are punished with imprisonment and/or death. The Nazi Party owns and controls completely all media, news, government, churches, and schools.
While Nazism was a movement already growing in Germany during the 1920's, it was Adolph Hitler who consolidated and energized it into a mass movement centered entirely on his life and persona.
Now, WhiteWolf...are you satisfied that there's a Jew here who actually knows what the hell he's talking about?
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Re: "...How would you define the term NAZI?..."
A follower of a totalitarian ideology practicing extreme nationalism combined with socialism, to the exclusive benefit of only one ethnic/national group, about whom a completely false mythos (The Aryan Ubermensch--White Teutonic Superman member of the Aryan "Master Race") is believed and enforced as "religion"; overriding all previous accepted and documentable religious, historical, social, national, military, scientific, and academic thinking.
The "Aryan Mythos" is centered upon the demonization of the Jewish People, wherein all that is problematic in life throughout all of history is blamed solely on the Jew.
The success of the Nazi Movement, according to its doctrine, is possible only with the complete eradication of the Jew from the entire earth.
The "National Socialist Worker's Party" practices the "cult of personality", centered upon the "Der Fuhrerprinzip":
The entire nation is united upon the belief of shared "blood and soil" against any and all other nations, led by just one man who is the nation's leader, primary philosopher, military strategist, and dictator of the entirety of governmental, legal, and social order.
All actions and orders in Nazism are "from the top down" (Fuhrer's orders being carried out by subordinates in a typical pyramid structure downwards), and all responsibilities to the Fuhrer are "from the bottom upwards" (each subordinate directly accountable to his superior above).
Needless to say, in such a society dissent and alternative worldviews are punished with imprisonment and/or death. The Nazi Party owns and controls completely all media, news, government, churches, and schools.
While Nazism was a movement already growing in Germany during the 1920's, it was Adolph Hitler who consolidated and energized it into a mass movement centered entirely on his life and persona.
Now, WhiteWolf...are you satisfied that there's a Jew here who actually knows what the hell he's talking about?
I saw plenty of defintions that were perfectly suitable for the term "Nazi" from our other members.
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The evil White KKK people who may not have always hated jews but hated blacks are nazi's because they had no reason hate them...
and if they did it was for all the wrong reasons
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The IslamoNazism:
THE Past:
(http://www.geocities.com/arabracismandislamicjihad/Mufti-Hitler.jpg)
(http://www.patriot.dk/mufti.jpg)
The Present:
(http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/hezbollah_salute.jpg)
The Future:
(http://nordish.net/mohammed_image_archive/extreme_mohammed/101_24ef16e09eefd83e.jpg)
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The BNP are not nazis however some British members have said some of the BNP's economic policies tend to be socialist.I think there are a couple of BNP members on this forum.
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I would have said anyone who hates Jews for any reason, but Raise Your Fist has a point.
But... I don't think someone who hates blacks but not Jews (for instance) is a Nazi. So there are limits to his definition.
What you say doesn't really gel with me... someone who hates blacks for no reason but doesn't hates jews is still extremely evil...
i know what your trying to say about blacks being primarily evil but if someone were to attack Alan Keys for the same shortcomings as a black man that would be an act of evil...
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A nazi is the term I use when I want to say that my nose itches...as in, "I have these boogies, I need to scratch my 'nay-zee'"
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Re: "...the KKK which hates blacks but doesn't hate Jews..."
?
Really?
I'd love a clarification of this observation.
I must have been reading the wrong KKK literature and listening to speeches at the wrong KKK rallies.
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Re: "...I saw plenty of defintions that were perfectly suitable for the term "Nazi" from our other members..."
I didn't.
Many claiming membership in the new JDF & its splinter groups, as well as innumerable "mainstream American Jews", publicly denounce Rabbi Meir Kahane and Chaim Ben Pesach as "nazis".
Just because you personally happen to disapprove or disagree with someone else, does not in and of itself define them as a "nazi".
I refer those who practice this kind of thinking to read the last paragraph of my current post regarding Ann Coulter's opinions about Jews.
In short...ARE YOU A KAHANIST?...
AND, IF YOU ARE, WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT MEAN?
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The term Nazi is a term that is used a lot on this board.
I'm interested to know what term means in the modern world.
How would you define the term NAZI?
The term NAZI or National Socialism is simply a title for an ideology that combines Germanic Paganism with economic principles of Socialism. There was really nothing whatsoever "Nationalist" about National Socialism since the first thing Herr Schickelgruber did was invade Rhineland, Czeck, Austria, France and then Poland with desires of expanding his empire Eastward into the Russian oil fields. This is all, of course, stated within his Mein Kempf.
The Germanic Paganism side was the teachings of peoples like Alfred Rosenburg's Thule Society and Houston Stewart Chamberlain's promulgation of Theosophic teachings of Madam Blavatsky. This is the foundation of the "religious" side of Nazism. Most of the top Nazis were Homosexuals including Adolf himself. This is perhaps why the Arab culture has embraced Nazism and the Nazis embraced the Islamist, Hajj Amin Al Hussaini with open arms.
It too is no secret that the Nazis sent scientists into India and Thebet to study the pagan Hindu texts and Guru teachings with that of the Dhali Lama to refine their Germanism. "Hitler's Preistess" is a very good book on this subject as is "The Rainbow Swastika" by Hannah Newman (found for free on the net) to see the foundations and promulgation of the teachings that composed Nazism then and today.
People often forget that the Muslism sided with the Germans during WWI and with the "peaceful" Buddhists and Hindus sided with the Axis against the Allies in WW2....
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Re: "...the KKK which hates blacks but doesn't hate Jews..."
?
Really?
I'd love a clarification of this observation.
I must have been reading the wrong KKK literature and listening to speeches at the wrong KKK rallies.
You misquoted him. This is something you do quite a bit.
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Re: "...the KKK which hates blacks but doesn't hate Jews..."
?
Really?
I'd love a clarification of this observation.
I must have been reading the wrong KKK literature and listening to speeches at the wrong KKK rallies.
You misquoted him. This is something you do quite a bit.
The KKK hate the Jews first and foremost.
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Re: "...the KKK which hates blacks but doesn't hate Jews..."
?
Really?
I'd love a clarification of this observation.
I must have been reading the wrong KKK literature and listening to speeches at the wrong KKK rallies.
You misquoted him. This is something you do quite a bit.
The KKK hate the Jews first and foremost.
Not so. They hate Jews, blacks and Christians equally. Their beliefs have grown over time to expand their hatred.
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A nazi, is some one that believes Jews are a inferior people and want them murdered. In some cases, they won't actually murder them, but just say on National TV that they want Jews too be "Perfected."
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I think a Nazi is someone, who agrees, even if only partially, with the statements of the original Nazi-teachings. If the person has read it or not, is not important. Important is his oppinion. One identifying feature is the believe in the total maliciousness of Jews and that Jews are behind all evil in the world. Onother point is his believe in a socialist total state, where the individual is nothing and the so called society is all. In his oppinion is free market economy evil and christian religion is a slave ideology. The christian confessions he hate at most are first the catholic church and second bible believing christs of different protestant confessions, because they take the "Tanach" seriously. The Nazis don't believe, that Jesus is a Jew, but a Aryan. In the time of Nazi-Terror they builded a own church, that called "German christs". In this church they teached, that Adolf Hitler is the Savior (Messias).
On this picture you can see on the left a German Christ and on the right a member of the confession church. They make promotion for their groups shortly before the election of a church council.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/b/b5/Deutsche_Christen_Bekennende_K.jpg)
Jesus as a Aryan in the Nazi-Terror-Newspaper Sturmer:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fa/Stuermer1934.gif)
A short explanation of the Nazi-religion you can read of wikipedia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians)
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity)
Here is a Prayer to Hitler of this insane sect:
Prayer to Hitler
In Nazism, Adolf Hitler was occasionally compared with Jesus, or revered as a savior sent by G-d. A prayer recited by orphans at orphanages runs as follows:[15] This could be used as an indication that Nazism was a political religion or for the political messianism of Hitler.
Führer, mein Führer, von Gott mir gegeben, beschütz und erhalte noch lange mein Leben
Du hast Deutschland errettet aus tiefster Not, Dir verdank ich mein tägliches Brot
Führer, mein Führer, mein Glaube, mein Licht
Führer mein Führer, verlasse mich nicht
This translates roughly as:
Leader, my Leader, given to me by G-d, protect me and sustain my life for a long time
you have rescued Germany out of deepest misery, to you I owe my daily bread
Leader, my Leader, my belief, my light
Leader my Leader, do not abandon me
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_Religion#Prayer_to_Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_Religion#Prayer_to_Hitler)
All about Nazi-ideologie you find in this two Nazi-books:
I. Adolf Hitler: Mein Kampf
(http://www.bilderhoster.net/safeforbilder/t3235kjl.jpg)
II. Alfred Rosenberg: Der Mythos des 20. Jahrhunderts
(http://www.bilderhoster.net/safeforbilder/kpfwnx93.jpg)
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The term Nazi is a term that is used a lot on this board.
I'm interested to know what term means in the modern world.
How would you define the term NAZI?
The term NAZI or National Socialism is simply a title for an ideology that combines Germanic Paganism with economic principles of Socialism. There was really nothing whatsoever "Nationalist" about National Socialism since the first thing Herr Schickelgruber did was invade Rhineland, Czeck, Austria, France and then Poland with desires of expanding his empire Eastward into the Russian oil fields. This is all, of course, stated within his Mein Kempf.
The Germanic Paganism side was the teachings of peoples like Alfred Rosenburg's Thule Society and Houston Stewart Chamberlain's promulgation of Theosophic teachings of Madam Blavatsky. This is the foundation of the "religious" side of Nazism. Most of the top Nazis were Homosexuals including Adolf himself. This is perhaps why the Arab culture has embraced Nazism and the Nazis embraced the Islamist, Hajj Amin Al Hussaini with open arms.
It too is no secret that the Nazis sent scientists into India and Thebet to study the pagan Hindu texts and Guru teachings with that of the Dhali Lama to refine their Germanism. "Hitler's Preistess" is a very good book on this subject as is "The Rainbow Swastika" by Hannah Newman (found for free on the net) to see the foundations and promulgation of the teachings that composed Nazism then and today.
People often forget that the Muslism sided with the Germans during WWI and with the "peaceful" Buddhists and Hindus sided with the Axis against the Allies in WW2....
The SS has sent a special research group to india or tibet in the late thirties of 20. century. But i don't know for what thing they are looking for in Asia.
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A Nazi is anyone who believes that he is always right and that anyone who disagrees with his views is always wrong and evil and calls that person a Nazi and believes that he needs to do everything he can to impose his absolutist views on those who disagree with him and to ban the thoughts and behaviors of those who disagree with him or are in opposition to his world views and opinions.
Remember the catch phrase from Star Wars, Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Just replace "Sith" with "Nazi"
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A nazi, is some one that believes Jews are a inferior people and want them murdered. In some cases, they won't actually murder them, but just say on National TV that they want Jews too be "Perfected."
I can't belive you call Ann Cullter a nazi only becouse her words were twisted by liberal self hating kike like Donny Deutsch; she did more for Israel and Jews than me or you; and what kind of jew has such name: Deutch=German and is working on sabath? Now he's jewishness is hurt! He is just another hipocrite and bigot ask him what he think about Chaim or Rabbi Kahane I bet that he woud call them terrorist and nazim.
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A Nazi is anyone who believes that he is always right and that anyone who disagrees with his views is always wrong and evil and calls that person a Nazi and believes that he needs to do everything he can to impose his absolutist views on those who disagree with him and to ban the thoughts and behaviors of those who disagree with him or are in opposition to his world views and opinions.
Remember the catch phrase from Star Wars, Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Just replace "Sith" with "Nazi"
OK guys we can close this thread: The Nazis are Siths. ::) :::D
And btw you're wrong you just gave the definition of zeelot fanatic not nazi; all nazis are fanstics; but not all fanatics are nazis.
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The term Nazi is a term that is used a lot on this board.
I'm interested to know what term means in the modern world.
How would you define the term NAZI?
The term NAZI or National Socialism is simply a title for an ideology that combines Germanic Paganism with economic principles of Socialism. There was really nothing whatsoever "Nationalist" about National Socialism since the first thing Herr Schickelgruber did was invade Rhineland, Czeck, Austria, France and then Poland with desires of expanding his empire Eastward into the Russian oil fields. This is all, of course, stated within his Mein Kempf.
The Germanic Paganism side was the teachings of peoples like Alfred Rosenburg's Thule Society and Houston Stewart Chamberlain's promulgation of Theosophic teachings of Madam Blavatsky. This is the foundation of the "religious" side of Nazism. Most of the top Nazis were Homosexuals including Adolf himself. This is perhaps why the Arab culture has embraced Nazism and the Nazis embraced the Islamist, Hajj Amin Al Hussaini with open arms.
It too is no secret that the Nazis sent scientists into India and Thebet to study the pagan Hindu texts and Guru teachings with that of the Dhali Lama to refine their Germanism. "Hitler's Preistess" is a very good book on this subject as is "The Rainbow Swastika" by Hannah Newman (found for free on the net) to see the foundations and promulgation of the teachings that composed Nazism then and today.
People often forget that the Muslism sided with the Germans during WWI and with the "peaceful" Buddhists and Hindus sided with the Axis against the Allies in WW2....
The SS has sent a special research group to india or tibet in the late thirties of 20. century. But i don't know for what thing they are looking for in Asia.
Yes to india and tibet the nazis were crazy did you ever see the photos the people in tibet look mongol not European
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The SS has sent a special research group to india or tibet in the late thirties of 20. century. But i don't know for what thing they are looking for in Asia.
Yes they went to India and Thebet in search of the mystical beliefs/origins of the Aryan man and the Aryan mythological religion. If anyone is interested in a VERY good read on this stuff you will look for a book called: "The Occult and the Third Reich: The Mystical Origins of Nazism and the Search for the Holy Grail" by Jean-Michel Angebert
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Yes they went to India and Thebet in search of the mystical beliefs/origins of the Aryan man and the Aryan mythological religion.
Yes but look what the USA presidents are involved with when no one is watching, Bohemian Grove.
(http://www.informationliberation.com/files/290905pp140304cremationpic.jpg)
(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/cremation_of_care.jpg)
(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/bohemian_grove.jpg)
(http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00158/images/bgmeeting.jpg)
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You make a very good point.... You know, you will love the book by Hanah Newman called "The Rainbow Swastika" it is on the net for free... it gets into all of this stuff.... O0
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Yes they went to India and Thebet in search of the mystical beliefs/origins of the Aryan man and the Aryan mythological religion.
Yes but look what the USA presidents are involved with when no one is watching, Bohemian Grove.
(http://www.informationliberation.com/files/290905pp140304cremationpic.jpg)
(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/cremation_of_care.jpg)
(http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/bohemian_grove.jpg)
(http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00158/images/bgmeeting.jpg)
What exactly are we looking at here? How does the last picture with Nixon and Reagan relate to the first two KKK pictures? Who is the speaker in the third picture?
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After looking at the pictures closer what I thought were kkk pictures seemed wrong. I dug around and found out what this place was myself. Its a rich mans playground. The few articles I read claims that sitting presidents are not allowed to attend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove
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Yes this is another example of elitism at its finest. If you wish to research Bohemian Grove's European historical counterpart you might read about the Hellfire Club.
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I would have said anyone who hates Jews for any reason, but Raise Your Fist has a point.
But... I don't think someone who hates blacks but not Jews (for instance) is a Nazi. So there are limits to his definition.
Most folks who hate Jews hate blacks too ( and vice-versa ).
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I would have said anyone who hates Jews for any reason, but Raise Your Fist has a point.
But... I don't think someone who hates blacks but not Jews (for instance) is a Nazi. So there are limits to his definition.
Most folks who hate Jews hate blacks too ( and vice-versa ).
I don't know about the vice-versa. The worse thing Liberal Jewish folks ever did was to get involved with blacks and their civil rights problems. If it wasn't for Jewish brain power blacks would still be picking cotton and driving Miss Daisy. ;)
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Re: Bohemian Grove
I must be missing the point...I have looked repeatedly at all of those pictures, and I don't see any black people at all.
So...what's the problem with the Presidents?
And...if that's what they do "when no one's looking", then how is it that pictures of their activities exist?
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Re: Bohemian Grove
I must be missing the point...I have looked repeatedly at all of those pictures, and I don't see any black people at all.
So...what's the problem with the Presidents?
And...if that's what they do "when no one's looking", then how is it that pictures of their activities exist?
Read the wickidpedia link I put in my post its not bad it explains a lot.
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I would have said anyone who hates Jews for any reason, but Raise Your Fist has a point.
But... I don't think someone who hates blacks but not Jews (for instance) is a Nazi. So there are limits to his definition.
Most folks who hate Jews hate blacks too ( and vice-versa ).
I think this is right, but why are some black people so gravitated towards islam, even if they are christians? We Christians have to stand together for our religion and against racism.
Look here:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9551.0
I can't understand this, because the central council of the Jews in Germany always fight against racism.
But I have to be fair: There are in Germany a lot of "white" Christians too, who are Dhimmis [People who surrender to Islam]. This Dhimmi-problem is not only a problem of black Germans.
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I would have said anyone who hates Jews for any reason, but Raise Your Fist has a point.
But... I don't think someone who hates blacks but not Jews (for instance) is a Nazi. So there are limits to his definition.
Most folks who hate Jews hate blacks too ( and vice-versa ).
I don't know about the vice-versa. The worse thing Liberal Jewish folks ever did was to get involved with blacks and their civil rights problems. If it wasn't for Jewish brain power blacks would still be picking cotton and driving Miss Daisy. ;)
The worst thing conservative Jewish folls ever did is to allow such a tuchas licker as yourself to hide behind to sling their racist filth. Please explain the connection between Jewish brain power and slavery CJ.
You think antisemites like Richard Nixon would have any more love for Jews if their political orientation was more compatible with white racists and KKK? You've gotta be out of your bubbie schupping mind if you think anyone here buys that.
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Most folks who hate Jews hate blacks too ( and vice-versa ).
This is very true brother. VERY true.. Very good point...
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Most folks who hate Jews hate blacks too ( and vice-versa ).
Not true at all, lots of Jews hate Blacks.
The problem Jews have is they have connected themselves to the races relations movement.
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Most folks who hate Jews hate blacks too ( and vice-versa ).
Not true at all, lots of Jews hate Blacks.
The problem Jews have is they have connected themselves to the races relations movement.
You mean that lot's of blacks hate Jews? becouse they're envy lazy b... influenced either by comunism or islam. Jews even those from liberal pro civil right crowd will be in the end hated becouse they're still Jews just like KKK types hate all Jews too even rightwingers.
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NAZI means National Socialist. The term was created by "Hitler", Ymach Shemo Wezichro, even though he was neither Nationalist ( he wanted to join Aryans and erase nationals borders, so where was his love for Germany?) nor Socialist.
Due to the heinous crimes committed by those who called themselves Nazis, now the term is used to name those who kill or hate for racial reasons, or those who support cruel experiments, or those who want to kill the sick, disabled or old people.
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I agree with the OP that the term is over-used. When I say nazi, I mean a person who believes in the general ideology of Adolf Hitler. For instance, Ron Paul and Iranian President are not truly nazis, though they are opposition in their own right.