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21

General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Binyamin Yisrael on September 13, 2025, 10:59:25 PM »

To repent for an extremely grave sin, such as murder, God forbid, the person should change his name, implying that he is no longer the same person as the one who did the sin, and he should exile himself to another place. It is taught in the Hebrew Bible that exile absolves one from sin, because it chastens a person and causes him to become humble and self-effacing.

Under The Noahide Laws, murderers are given the death penalty, as are any Non-Jew who violates any of the seven.

A place of refuge is only for a Jew who committed unintentional man slaughter.

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Chaim Ben Pesach on September 13, 2025, 09:08:16 PM »

Repentance is one of the seven things God created before He created the world. It has a supernatural power to change a person.

בס''ד

There are sins in Judaism that are unforgivable even after repentance. I brought some obvious examples earlier in this thread which you are ignoring.

Another prominent example is King David, the most righteous king in history. The Mashiach (Messiah) will come from the lineage of David. David repented intensely after the sin of Bat Sheva and Uriyah the Hittite. David tore his clothes, sat on the floor and fasted 7 days. David begged Hashem to forgive him and begged Hashem to spare the life of the baby boy that was conceived as a result of his relations with Bat Sheva. But David's action caused the death of Uriyah and Hashem refused to forgive. David's baby boy died. And that was just the beginning of the punishment. Because of this terrible sin, David was unable to give a moral example to his children. David's son Amnon raped Tamar. David's other son Avshalom rebelled against him, removing David from the throne and causing a civil war in which 20,000 Jews were killed. David's son Avshalom was also killed in the battle. None of these terrible things happened until the Bat Sheva-Uriyah sin. Before the sin, everything David did was incredibly successful. Even at the end of his life, David paid a tremendous price. David became ill in his sixties and died at the age of 70, even though a righteous king like him should have lived a very long and healthy life.

I could give many other examples of how Hashem will not forgive a sin like intentional murder without punishing the murderer.

Once again, if what you are suggesting is correct, then Hitler could repent and be forgiven for murdering 6 million Jews (G-d forbid!). A god that would do that would be a monster.

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Hrvatski Noahid on September 13, 2025, 04:49:17 PM »

I have seen some bad threads on this forum during my time here ( which is from the very start) but this one takes the cake... There is no escape of punishment for willful murder in Christian doctrine... Its considered a mortal sin... There will be a price to pay I don't see how moving and a person changing their name could absolve a sin like willful murder no mater any amount of repentance.

Repentance is one of the seven things God created before He created the world. It has a supernatural power to change a person.   

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by cjd on September 13, 2025, 04:23:56 PM »

I have seen some bad threads on this forum during my time here ( which is from the very start) but this one takes the cake... There is no escape of punishment for willful murder in Christian doctrine... Its considered a mortal sin... There will be a price to pay in the so called next world... Lesser sins might be absolved but as Chaim pointed out murder is not one of them... I don't see how moving and a person changing their name could absolve a sin like willful murder no mater any amount of repentance.

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Hrvatski Noahid on September 12, 2025, 03:21:36 PM »

Again, don't go around advertising this, just like you should not go around and advertise the halacha that one is permitted to kill a man who commits adultery with the specific intention of desecrating G-D's name.

If Chaim's video claims there is no forgiveness for murder, it is appropriate to mention the actual law.

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Dovid_2 on September 12, 2025, 03:14:51 PM »

There is no sequence of earlier and later incidents in the Torah, as Rashi explains on Exodus 19:11.

My goodness!  How you misunderstand Rashi and apply such a coarse interpretation to the entire Torah!  Rashi is speaking of chronology when it comes to explaining rote, per se.  Heaven forbid one should apply this interpretation and introduce anachronisms into the most basic Biblical narratives.

But the murderer can ask for forgiveness from the victim's soul.

Again, don't go around advertising this, just like you should not go around and advertise the halacha that one is permitted to kill a man who commits adultery with the specific intention of desecrating G-D's name.

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Hrvatski Noahid on September 12, 2025, 03:03:31 PM »

Do I need to point out the obvious that verse 7 in Chapter 4 comes before the next verse in which Cain murders Abel?  G-D is telling Cain in verse 7 to improve himself and if he does he will be successful.

There is no sequence of earlier and later incidents in the Torah, as Rashi explains on Exodus 19:11.

My worry is the major codifications of Noahide law teach there is no blemish of sin that cannot be washed away. It is true that sins against people will not be forgiven by God until the one who committed the sin makes restitution to the victim and asks for his forgiveness. But the murderer can ask for forgiveness from the victim's soul.

 
 

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Dovid_2 on September 12, 2025, 02:25:15 PM »

I disagree, Chaim. It is Christianity which teaches that sincere repentance is not accepted and you need Jesus. You can ask the victim's soul for forgiveness and you can bring the victim back to life with reincarnation and resurrection.

It is the church which sold "indulgences" for any sin, not Judaism.  Did one necessarily require Jesus for the allowance?  No.  You only needed to pay someone who was recognized as an authority by the church.  Christianity will try and muddy the waters of debate on what exactly an "indulgence" was.  But the fact is, at its very common denominator, it was payment for permission to commit a sin, and even if that's not what its original intention was, that's what it became, and it was approved by the Church even in its final form.  And the only reason why they curtailed it is because it's embarrassing to them.

Cain was an intentional murderer. But God came to him and said to him, "if you will improve yourself, you will be forgiven" (Genesis 4:7). As an eternal lesson for all generations, God instructed Cain about the ability to repent, which is in the hands of every person: to repent and return to God at any time one desires and makes the decision to do so, and God will forgive him.

Do I need to point out the obvious that verse 7 in Chapter 4 comes before the next verse in which Cain murders Abel?  G-D is telling Cain in verse 7 to improve himself and if he does he will be successful.  Cain was born with bad ethical faculties (I drew this inference from Ibn Ezra on this verse, who states that Cain committed sins), Abel had good ethical faculties.

I won't go into great detail, but the Student states that those born with bad ethical faculties "die young" and are "...cast out from the midst of man".  But Judaism is not Calvinist Christianity (lehavdil elef havdalot) and we do not believe in predeterminism.  Even one who is "cast out" (i.e. born with bad ethical faculties) is told by G-D to try hard.  What precisely the mechanism of salvation is for such a person is beyond our knowledge.  In medieval times, Jews adopted the theory of the "gilgul" (transmigration of souls).  Not everyone accepts this theory, and this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

To conclude, G-D is not forgiving Cain for the sin, to the contrary, G-D goes on to curse him in the following verses.

Out of respect for Chaim I have held back my acerbic disposition and my acid tongue in my refutation, but please study your sources carefully next time before writing blindly.

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Hrvatski Noahid on September 12, 2025, 04:22:53 AM »

בס''ד

Murder cannot be corrected - you can't bring the murder victim back to life. Therefore murder must be punished.

I disagree, Chaim. It is Christianity which teaches that sincere repentance is not accepted and you need Jesus. You can ask the victim's soul for forgiveness and you can bring the victim back to life with reincarnation and resurrection.

Cain was an intentional murderer. But God came to him and said to him, "if you will improve yourself, you will be forgiven" (Genesis 4:7). As an eternal lesson for all generations, God instructed Cain about the ability to repent, which is in the hands of every person: to repent and return to God at any time one desires and makes the decision to do so, and God will forgive him.

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General Discussion / Re: Many blacks support murderer of white woman on Charlotte train (JTF video)

« Last post by Chaim Ben Pesach on September 12, 2025, 01:49:13 AM »

You are conflating Jewish law and Noahide law. Jewish law is more restrictive. Rightly, because a nation of priests must have a more restrictive standard. If Gentiles repent sincerely, God forgives them for their sins and does not punish them for the past. We find this exemplified by the city of Nineveh.

בס''ד

G-d forbid! You mean if Hitler repented for murdering 6 million Jews, the holocaust would go unpunished? And Hitler would have eternal life, G-d forbid? In Christianity, that is how it works because Christianity is a man-made religion with man-made laws. But in Judaism, when Jew or Gentile does wrong, they must try to correct the harm that they have done. Murder cannot be corrected - you can't bring the murder victim back to life. Therefore murder must be punished.

As far as Nineveh is concerned, the Assyrians did even sincerely repent. They "repented" only because they were afraid that G-d would destroy them. Jonah the prophet tried to escape from delivering the prophesy to them because he knew that they would return to their evil ways and destroy Israel (which is what happened). That's why Jonah boarded a ship to avoid prophesizing to them. The ship hit very turbulent waters while Jonah was on it, but when Jonah was thrown overboard, the waters immediately calmed down. The terrified Assyrians on the ship reported this when they got to Nineveh and so all of the Assyrians were petrified of what would happen if they ignored Jonah's warnings. G-d was willing to let the Assyrians escape immediate destruction because He wanted to use them to punish Israel. But in the end, the Assyrians were destroyed permanently.