What, in your opinion, made the Muslims reveal true and ugly aspects of Islam ?

[HiWarp]

It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?

Where do you get these 'facts' from ?

Al-Jazeera ?

Oh sure, the mooozie satanic savages were friendly to Jews. Absolutely.

Why Mohamhead was friendly enough to chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men, while making their women watch. He was so friendly, he didn't kill the women, just raped and enslaved them. He even let the males without pubic hairs live for awhile.(the sick bastard actually pulled their garments down and checked for pubic hairs to determine which males were to be beheaded and the others enslaved.)

Yup, Islam sure has been a bundle of joy for Jews from it's very inception.

Jews should be grateful for such wonderful friends.

From a gather of books that tells you about a lovly term name "History", ever heard of it ? What I am saying are facts, and there is no a slight chance that you will disproove tham. A freinly tip: don't even try.

I never said the Muslims were "freindly" to the Jews, what I said is basiclly that it was better for Jews to live under Muslim rule rether than a Christian one.

The ideas of "chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men" is nonesense, there are no evidences for those claims. Besides, acorrding the the bible the Jews destroyed a lot of people, the Christians, well, killed milions in the Crusades and Milions in prugrom and milions in the Holocauste. In a historical point of view, the Christians were pretty fanatic and evil in the past, even as the Muslims are today.

Yes, but what is your point?  That ALL cultures and religions have at one time or another in history done vicious and cruel things?  How does that relate to what is happening in the world today?

I know that, that's why I always remind to the gentiles here that say that the Muslims were always evil that the Christians were also evil, therefor this argumant can be disprooved easily, and it isn't a good idea to use such kind of arguements. And we are out of topic.

It depends on the context of that statement, Dexter.  What if I said Christians have done evil things in the past but are now peaceful whereas  Muslims have always been evil and still are today.  This is a valid statement and it doesn't weaken my argument.

Also remember that in many places the Koran sanctions this behavior while the Christian Bible is not chock full of passages telling it's followers to conquer or kill in the name of G-d and his prophet Jesus.

[Dexter]

It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?

Where do you get these 'facts' from ?

Al-Jazeera ?

Oh sure, the mooozie satanic savages were friendly to Jews. Absolutely.

Why Mohamhead was friendly enough to chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men, while making their women watch. He was so friendly, he didn't kill the women, just raped and enslaved them. He even let the males without pubic hairs live for awhile.(the sick bastard actually pulled their garments down and checked for pubic hairs to determine which males were to be beheaded and the others enslaved.)

Yup, Islam sure has been a bundle of joy for Jews from it's very inception.

Jews should be grateful for such wonderful friends.

From a gather of books that tells you about a lovly term name "History", ever heard of it ? What I am saying are facts, and there is no a slight chance that you will disproove tham. A freinly tip: don't even try.

I never said the Muslims were "freindly" to the Jews, what I said is basiclly that it was better for Jews to live under Muslim rule rether than a Christian one.

The ideas of "chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men" is nonesense, there are no evidences for those claims. Besides, acorrding the the bible the Jews destroyed a lot of people, the Christians, well, killed milions in the Crusades and Milions in prugrom and milions in the Holocauste. In a historical point of view, the Christians were pretty fanatic and evil in the past, even as the Muslims are today.

Yes, but what is your point?  That ALL cultures and religions have at one time or another in history done vicious and cruel things?  How does that relate to what is happening in the world today?

I know that, that's why I always remind to the gentiles here that say that the Muslims were always evil that the Christians were also evil, therefor this argumant can be disprooved easily, and it isn't a good idea to use such kind of arguements. And we are out of topic.

It depends on the context of that statement, Dexter.  What if I said Christians have done evil things in the past but are now peaceful whereas  Muslims have always been evil and still are today.  This is a valid statement and it doesn't weaken my argument.

Also remember that in many places the Koran sanctions this behavior while the Christian Bible is not chock full of passages telling it's followers to conquer or kill in the name of G-d and his prophet Jesus.

But the "peacefull" people you are talking about are seculer, only when I will see mighty religous Christian state that is peacefull, I could fully agree with you. And again, if you are looking in the past's prespective you will see that the Muslims were peacefull (IN RELETIVLY TERMS FOR GOD'S SAKE!) to the Jews and Christians who lived inside their empire.

There are some antisimetic verses in the Christian bible, the diffrent is, that TODAY'S christians don't do nothing about it, which is a good thing.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Dexter says:
"I know that, that's why I always remind to the gentiles here that say that the Muslims were always evil that the Christians were also evil, therefor this argumant can be disprooved easily, and it isn't a good idea to use such kind of arguements. And we are out of topic."


Dex, I hate to break the news to you, but Mo was evil, and Islam is evil.

Always has been, always will be.

OK, so Christians have been evil and persecuted and massacred Jews as well.

Does that mean that mooozies aren't evil ?

You say it's not a good idea to use such arguments and that they can easily be disproved.

It's your argument that Islam isn't inherently evil that's being disproved.

It's being disproved on a daily basis today and it's clearly been disproved historically.

It's really amazing that people buy into the politically correct 'Islam has been hijacked' mantra our politicians and mass media continually repeat.

Islam hasn't been hijacked. It's never been a peaceful, tolerant religion.

Time to wake up and smell the jihad, dexter. And it's time to stop denying jihad is and always has been a central tenet of Islam.

Dex also says:
I wonder why you seem to be so angry, almost in any post of yours, any reason for that ?

Yes, there's a good reason.

I despise Islam.

And having people that know nothing about Islam, people that deny historical events actually happened, people that try to sugarcoat Islam, people that try to revise and whitewash the genocide Islam has perpetrated and is perpetrating, upset me greatly.

And when I get upset, I express my anger.

Your nonsense should be upsetting to anyone with a brain, and especially so since it's being posted on a forum that's dedicated to saving Israel and America from Islamic terrorism.

Hope that answers your question. 

[mord]

There are some antisimetic verses in the Christian bible

Thats true but that was one group of Jews argueing  with each other.It's kind of like the neuterai karta arguing with other Jews or one group of jews who follow one rabbi arguee with another.But these moslems saying things were outsiders so it was worse

[Dexter]

Dexter says:
"I know that, that's why I always remind to the gentiles here that say that the Muslims were always evil that the Christians were also evil, therefor this argumant can be disprooved easily, and it isn't a good idea to use such kind of arguements. And we are out of topic."


Dex, I hate to break the news to you, but Mo was evil, and Islam is evil.

Always has been, always will be.

OK, so Christians have been evil and persecuted and massacred Jews as well.

Does that mean that mooozies aren't evil ?

You say it's not a good idea to use such arguments and that they can easily be disproved.

It's your argument that Islam isn't inherently evil that's being disproved.

It's being disproved on a daily basis today and it's clearly been disproved historically.

It's really amazing that people buy into the politically correct 'Islam has been hijacked' mantra our politicians and mass media continually repeat.

Islam hasn't been hijacked. It's never been a peaceful, tolerant religion.

Time to wake up and smell the jihad, dexter. And it's time to stop denying jihad is and always has been a central tenet of Islam.

Dex also says:
I wonder why you seem to be so angry, almost in any post of yours, any reason for that ?

Yes, there's a good reason.

I despise Islam.

And having people that know nothing about Islam, people that deny historical events actually happened, people that try to sugarcoat Islam, people that try to revise and whitewash the genocide Islam has perpetrated and is perpetrating, upset me greatly.

And when I get upset, I express my anger.

Your nonsense should be upsetting to anyone with a brain, and especially so since it's being posted on a forum that's dedicated to saving Israel and America from Islamic terrorism.

Hope that answers your question. 

Mo?
Anyway, Islam was pretty evil, indeed. But let me re-arrange my basic idea: Islam was, in the past, the best between the worse between Islam and Christianety, In a Jewish prespective of course.
No, it doesn't means that Muslims are not evil today, of course not.

I wasn't talking about Islam, I was talking about Muslims, and there is a huge diffrent between tham. First of all, there can be a chance that the Muslims don't do everything that the Koran said, as in the past. Non of the Jews aren't following the torah complety, non!!

Islam was much more tolerent to the Jews than the Christians, it's a fact that one of the biggest Jewish philosopher ever lived lived in a Muslim state, and he was the Sultan's doctor. Maimonides. A lot of the biggest rebbies lived under Muslim rule, and not under Christian one. Only when the Muslims took south Iberia the "Golden Age" of the Sefardic Jews started, and it started BECAUSE of the Muslim rule, not from itself.

Originaly, Jihad was a war between the good and the bad in the human soul, but it changed quiqly when the Chalif Abu Bakar derclard Jihad on the non-Muslims, of course it is importent part in Islam, but it became stronger factor in the 20th century, and that is this whole topic about, WHY ?

You have the right to anger, but if you are angry and express this anger, there is no chance you could convince someone into your opinions. And if person that knows nothing about Islam, I'm not the one you are seeking for.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Dexter says:
"I know that, that's why I always remind to the gentiles here that say that the Muslims were always evil that the Christians were also evil, therefor this argumant can be disprooved easily, and it isn't a good idea to use such kind of arguements. And we are out of topic."


Dex, I hate to break the news to you, but Mo was evil, and Islam is evil.

Always has been, always will be.

OK, so Christians have been evil and persecuted and massacred Jews as well.

Does that mean that mooozies aren't evil ?

You say it's not a good idea to use such arguments and that they can easily be disproved.

It's your argument that Islam isn't inherently evil that's being disproved.

It's being disproved on a daily basis today and it's clearly been disproved historically.

It's really amazing that people buy into the politically correct 'Islam has been hijacked' mantra our politicians and mass media continually repeat.

Islam hasn't been hijacked. It's never been a peaceful, tolerant religion.

Time to wake up and smell the jihad, dexter. And it's time to stop denying jihad is and always has been a central tenet of Islam.

Dex also says:
I wonder why you seem to be so angry, almost in any post of yours, any reason for that ?

Yes, there's a good reason.

I despise Islam.

And having people that know nothing about Islam, people that deny historical events actually happened, people that try to sugarcoat Islam, people that try to revise and whitewash the genocide Islam has perpetrated and is perpetrating, upset me greatly.

And when I get upset, I express my anger.

Your nonsense should be upsetting to anyone with a brain, and especially so since it's being posted on a forum that's dedicated to saving Israel and America from Islamic terrorism.

Hope that answers your question. 

Mo?
Anyway, Islam was pretty evil, indeed. But let me re-arrange my basic idea: Islam was, in the past, the best between the worse between Islam and Christianety, In a Jewish prespective of course.
No, it doesn't means that Muslims are not evil today, of course not.

I wasn't talking about Islam, I was talking about Muslims, and there is a huge diffrent between tham. First of all, there can be a chance that the Muslims don't do everything that the Koran said, as in the past. Non of the Jews aren't following the torah complety, non!!

Islam was much more tolerent to the Jews than the Christians, it's a fact that one of the biggest Jewish philosopher ever lived lived in a Muslim state, and he was the Sultan's doctor. Maimonides. A lot of the biggest rebbies lived under Muslim rule, and not under Christian one. Only when the Muslims took south Iberia the "Golden Age" of the Sefardic Jews started, and it started BECAUSE of the Muslim rule, not from itself.

Originaly, Jihad was a war between the good and the bad in the human soul, but it changed quiqly when the Chalif Abu Bakar derclard Jihad on the non-Muslims, of course it is importent part in Islam, but it became stronger factor in the 20th century, and that is this whole topic about, WHY ?

You have the right to anger, but if you are angry and express this anger, there is no chance you could convince someone into your opinions. And if person that knows nothing about Islam, I'm not the one you are seeking for.

That's a reasonable enough response.

However, I find the inference that Islam should be given any countenance because there were times when their persecution and subjugation of the Jews wasn't as severe as the worst atrocities Christians commited against the Jews to be highly objectionable.

Any accurate assessment of Islam must clearly state that it is and always has been a hostile, intolerant and genocidal retrograde ideology-not only to Jews-but to all non-moooozies.

And yes, when I say 'Mo', I'm referring to the mass murderer, pedophile, misogynist terrorist that the mooos call the 'final prophet' (urine be upon the sewer rat).

[Ehud]

I don't know why you guys are having such a hard time following Dexter's argument.  First of all, never did he mention the inherent "goodness" of Islam itself.  He's talking about how life was for Jews under Islamic rule, and it WAS much better.  Anyone who attempts to argue that it was just as good under Christianity needs to read about the history of Jews in Europe.  There were actually MULTIPLE German holocausts against Jews, and mini-Holocausts all over Europe persistently throughout the last thousand years and more.  Dexter wasn't talking about the time of Mohammed, he was talking about life in Muslim countries after that time, and Jews had it relatively good.  They were able to practice whichever profession they wanted to, and they took part in mainstream society in those countries for the most part.  Whether they had to worship in basements or not is irrelevant, the point of his post is that it was WORSE in Christian countries.

Also, talking about who hates us now is besides the point, this thread is intended to be a Historical thread.   

[Muck DeFuslims]

I don't know why you guys are having such a hard time following Dexter's argument.  First of all, never did he mention the inherent "goodness" of Islam itself.  He's talking about how life was for Jews under Islamic rule, and it WAS much better.  Anyone who attempts to argue that it was just as good under Christianity needs to read about the history of Jews in Europe.  There were actually MULTIPLE German holocausts against Jews, and mini-Holocausts all over Europe persistently throughout the last thousand years and more.  Dexter wasn't talking about the time of Mohammed, he was talking about life in Muslim countries after that time, and Jews had it relatively good.  They were able to practice whichever profession they wanted to, and they took part in mainstream society in those countries for the most part.  Whether they had to worship in basements or not is irrelevant, the point of his post is that it was WORSE in Christian countries.

Also, talking about who hates us now is besides the point, this thread is intended to be a Historical thread.   

Fine.

If you want to give the mooozies some sort of credit or kudos because Jews had it worse in Europe in Christian countries than they did under Islamic rule, go right ahead.

That's probably historically accurate.

But before we break our arms patting the mooozies on the back, let's not forget how Islamic rule was established.

And since this is a historical thread, let's not deny the head chopping obsession Mo had, or the genocidal atrocities he and the mooozies commited - and which continue to this day - to establish Dar al Islam.

I just don't like anything which can be construed as portraying Islam in a positive light.

But that's just me. I wouldn't urinate on a moozie if he was on fire.

[kellymaureen]

I would site my 2 main sources as Bat Ye'or and Robert Spencer.  I am sure that poor Bat Ye'or, who is recognized as a world renowned authority on dhimmitude and islamic history, who has been asked to speak on the subject by governments all over the world, who was asked by the UN to address the subject and who fled her native Egypt after seeing its decline as it fell more and more under islamic influence, who has spent years and years of her life pouring over historical documents and researching carefully the validity of said documents and who DOES speak, read and write fluent arabic would be absolutely crushed to find out that she knows NOTHING of islamic history and dhimmitude according to  the author of this thread, because her views are completely opposite.
I do have some good news however, Mr Robert Spencer, who is also recognized as an authority on islamic history, has a masters degree in religious study and has been studying islamic theology, law, and history in depth since 1980, so for more than a quarter of a century, has published 7 books on the subject, 2 of which are still on the NY times best seller list, hundreds of articles and is in demand as a lecturer on the subject of islam and islamic history and jihad.....would be more than willing to debate you on this subject, either via email or on his forum, jihadwatch.org, where he regularly posts (he has had some interesting debates with muslim apologists, people who do not believe that islam is evil and muslims which he posts for comment)....he is obviously far more equip to debate since none of us on this forum seem to know what we are talking about, goodness, Ive wasted 6 years reading and researching myself!  I would be interested to see his reply to the life of Jews under dhimmitude.  Perhaps I will myself copy this thread over and see what he has to say on the subject, Im rather curious...Yacov, do i need special permission to seek Mr. Spencers educated opinion on this subject, I think it would be great to have an opinion from someone like Mr Spencer?

Muck, I ALWAYS love your posts, you are always right on!

[kellymaureen]

This is a quote from a site for apostates, who for the most part were born muslims, raised muslims, taught the koran, lived as muslims and LEFT islam....regarding mohammad, are they wrong?  Note how they agree with Muck about how violent mo was

Why Mohammed was not a prophet:

One who claims to be a messenger of G-d is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of G-d must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their “right hand possessions” (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.

what the apostates say about the koran, are they wrong?  They have been made to study it all their lives, and as we all know, there is no greater sin in islam than to question the truth of islam, after all allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116).

Why Quran is not from G-d:

Muhammad produced no miracles and when pressed he claimed that his miracle is the Quran. Yet a cursory look at the Quran reveals that this book is full of errors. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself. There is nothing intelligent in this book let alone miraculous. Muhammad challenged people to produce a “Surah like it” or find an error therein, yet Muslims would kill anyone who dares to criticize it. In such a climate of hypocrisy and violence truth is the first casualty

[kellymaureen]

Here is a copy of the email i sent to Mr Spencer:

Dear Mr Spencer,

I am debating on another forum with a young person, here is his statement
"It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?"

I argued against this, and stated the deplorable conditions of dhimmis, and that muslims were never friendly to the Jews or any other non muslim, and that they Jews were not better off under islamic rule than any other rule.  I also argued that muslims did not 'reveal' any dark aspects, its just that more people are educated about islam, so they were more or less outed, and are now on the defensive trying to convince us we are all wrong or misunderstanding.  I would appreciate your opinion when you have a moment, Ive read all of your books which are absolutely wonderful, and I am certain that I am right, but I would love to have your take on the situation,

Thank you for your time.

Kelly

I will post his reply when I receive it.

[Dexter]

kellymaureen -
Are you sure he will answere you ?

[kellymaureen]

Yes, he is really great, even though he is busy and in demand as a lecturer, he regularly posts on his forum at jihadwatch.org, and answers emails.  There is also a man named Hugh Fitzgerald, who has published hundreds of articles on the same subject, and has nearly the same credentials, he may have more time to answer, but Ill wait for Roberts take, I am interested to know.  The bottom line here for both you and I is that I hope we never have to find out what islamic rule is really like   Ive belonged to that forum since 9-11-01