What, in your opinion, made the Muslims reveal true and ugly aspects of Islam ?

[Dexter]

It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?

[kellymaureen]

When muslims ruled, any non muslim who hadnt been killed or converted, lived under dhimmi status.  This is where the myth of "peace" between muslims and non muslims comes from.  Living under dhimmi status is NOT peace, dhimmis were second class citizens, with no rights.  Dhimmis were "free" to practice their own religions, however could not do so in view of their muslim overlords, they could not build new houses of worship, could not repair existing houses of worship, they were subject to dress codes such as not wearing shoes or sandals, not using certain colors, wearing stars on their clothing(sound familiar?) so that they could not mix with muslims or even walk in some muslim areas of a city, dhimmis were subject to the whims of the ruling mullahs, dhimmis were beaten or killed for the smallest of infractions, some of which could be made up on the spot, since dhimmis could not testify against muslims there was no recourse.  Dhimmis were regularly subject to abuse, physical, sexual and mental, often were dehumanized and humiliated, were prohibited from working in most occupations, leaving the dhimmi population in severe poverty and were forced to the jizya tax, which was not really a tax, but a shakedown of the dhimmis for "protection".
The myth of "peace" or that muslims treated ANY non muslim has been carried down through the generations BY muslims, its only more or less recently that the truth has come out about the horrible life under islamic rule that non muslims were subject to.
Muslims havent revealed anything, their constant whining about how we silly infidels just "dont understand" their 'glorious religion' has prompted millions of people to read for themselves what they are taught and believe, now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, muslims are running defence, trying to tell us we misunderstand, or that we need to read it in arabic, and the famous "islamophobia" when all else fails.  It will not be as easy for them to conquer now, simply because too many people understand what it will mean for a non muslim under islamic rule, and more people will be willing to fight for their existence.

[Dexter]

When muslims ruled, any non muslim who hadnt been killed or converted, lived under dhimmi status.  This is where the myth of "peace" between muslims and non muslims comes from.  Living under dhimmi status is NOT peace, dhimmis were second class citizens, with no rights.  Dhimmis were "free" to practice their own religions, however could not do so in view of their muslim overlords, they could not build new houses of worship, could not repair existing houses of worship, they were subject to dress codes such as not wearing shoes or sandals, not using certain colors, wearing stars on their clothing(sound familiar?) so that they could not mix with muslims or even walk in some muslim areas of a city, dhimmis were subject to the whims of the ruling mullahs, dhimmis were beaten or killed for the smallest of infractions, some of which could be made up on the spot, since dhimmis could not testify against muslims there was no recourse.  Dhimmis were regularly subject to abuse, physical, sexual and mental, often were dehumanized and humiliated, were prohibited from working in most occupations, leaving the dhimmi population in severe poverty and were forced to the jizya tax, which was not really a tax, but a shakedown of the dhimmis for "protection".
The myth of "peace" or that muslims treated ANY non muslim has been carried down through the generations BY muslims, its only more or less recently that the truth has come out about the horrible life under islamic rule that non muslims were subject to.
Muslims havent revealed anything, their constant whining about how we silly infidels just "dont understand" their 'glorious religion' has prompted millions of people to read for themselves what they are taught and believe, now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, muslims are running defence, trying to tell us we misunderstand, or that we need to read it in arabic, and the famous "islamophobia" when all else fails.  It will not be as easy for them to conquer now, simply because too many people understand what it will mean for a non muslim under islamic rule, and more people will be willing to fight for their existence.

I was talking in reletively terms, of course Jews weren't equel, but they had better lives in Muslim state.

[kellymaureen]

Read Dhimmi by Bat Ye'or, its a great read and tells the real truth about living in the muslim state.

[Dexter]

Read Dhimmi by Bat Ye'or, its a great read and tells the real truth about living in the muslim state.

Again, I know that Jews were treaten un-equily as a commend that came out of the Koran, and also "Umar's Conditions" ducoment, that write the things that Jews aren't allowd to do.
The Jews had better thought about the Arabs than the Christians, until the 20th century. The Jews helped the Arabs take Judea out of the Romans, who were Christians as we all know. Jews were allowd to be in high ranks of goverments, as in the Fatimid Caliphate era. Jews basiclly preferd to live under Muslim rule.

[kellymaureen]

Well if things keep going the way they are, and we dont all get our act together, you may very well find out how well you'll be treated.  Muslims are outbreeding us, and have one common conviction, dar al islam...therefore if we do not learn how to fight this cancer, all of us may find out, and I can only speak for me, I would prefer death over living under islamic rule, no matter how well they may SAY they will treat us, I know better.

[HiWarp]

Well if things keep going the way they are, and we dont all get our act together, you may very well find out how well you'll be treated.  Muslims are outbreeding us, and have one common conviction, dar al islam...therefore if we do not learn how to fight this cancer, all of us may find out, and I can only speak for me, I would prefer death over living under islamic rule, no matter how well they may SAY they will treat us, I know better.

Well said.  You will basically have three choices:

1) Convert to Islam and enjoy everything a Muslim enjoys.
2) Refuse to convert and live as a dhimmi, paying your taxes and if you're not a troublemaker (as defined by your Muslim masters) and you pay your jizya, you may be able to practice your religion in a dark basement out of view of other Muslims.
3) Die.

[kellymaureen]

1) Convert to Islam and enjoy everything a Muslim enjoys

Since I dont enjoy murder, rape, molesting children, rioting, blowing people and buildings up, hijacking planes, wearing a bag, bowing to a fake god or any of the other activities enjoyed in islam I have to vote a big NO on this choice.

2) Refuse to convert and live as a dhimmi, paying your taxes and if you're not a troublemaker (as defined by your Muslim masters) and you pay your jizya, you may be able to practice your religion in a dark basement out of view of other Muslims

I wouldnt even entertain this "choice"

3) Die.

Other than FIGHT, this is the only choice.

[Dexter]

Well if things keep going the way they are, and we dont all get our act together, you may very well find out how well you'll be treated.  Muslims are outbreeding us, and have one common conviction, dar al islam...therefore if we do not learn how to fight this cancer, all of us may find out, and I can only speak for me, I would prefer death over living under islamic rule, no matter how well they may SAY they will treat us, I know better.

You know better ?
Ever lived under Muslim rule ? Some of my family's members did, they have the actual right to talk about it.
It's a FACT, no metter what you will say, that the Jews lived better in the Muslims states, and that the Muslims were much more advenced culturaly than Europe until the 15th century, and the Muslims stuck on this era.

HiWarp -
Muslims didn't converted Jews or Christian generally, there were only few cases that the Muslims actually converted tham. The Muslims let the Christians and Jews to do their religion, and yes, it was, basiclly "In a dark basement", now, lets compare it to the Jews in the Christian states, well, the Jews were killed. heh.

[HiWarp]

1) Convert to Islam and enjoy everything a Muslim enjoys

Since I dont enjoy murder, rape, molesting children, rioting, blowing people and buildings up, hijacking planes, wearing a bag, bowing to a fake G-d or any of the other activities enjoyed in islam I have to vote a big NO on this choice.

2) Refuse to convert and live as a dhimmi, paying your taxes and if you're not a troublemaker (as defined by your Muslim masters) and you pay your jizya, you may be able to practice your religion in a dark basement out of view of other Muslims

I wouldnt even entertain this "choice"

3) Die.

Other than FIGHT, this is the only choice.

I'm with you.  Fight is a choice when they are attempting to take over, i.e. NOW.

[kellymaureen]

No I obviously havent lived under islamic rule, however my brother has spent most of the last 15 years in islamic countries and assures us we would NOT want to live like that, and i would take his opinion over anyones.  What he was seeing was the way muslims live under sharia, he says iraqi christians are more or less dhimmis, and they do not live in an islamic utopia by any means.
If islamic rule is so appealing, and you think you will be treated so well, perhaps immigrating to any of the glorious muslim countries and giving it a try would be a good idea;)...oh wait, these muslims who treat you so well, how many of their countries would even let you in with your passport?

What HiWarp said is sanctioned in the koran, those ARE your only choices, if you want to call them choices, convert, live as a dhimmi, or die.  Many dhimmi children and women were kidnapped and forced to convert under islamic rule.

We live in an age of electronic media, I have eyes, one only needs to turn on the computer or TV to see images coming from muslim countries to make me KNOW i wouldnt want to live that way.

[Dexter]

No I obviously havent lived under islamic rule, however my brother has spent most of the last 15 years in islamic countries and assures us we would NOT want to live like that, and i would take his opinion over anyones.  What he was seeing was the way muslims live under sharia, he says iraqi christians are more or less dhimmis, and they do not live in an islamic utopia by any means.
If islamic rule is so appealing, and you thing you will be treated so well, perhaps immigrating to any of the glorious muslim countries and giving it a try would be a good idea;)

What HiWarp said is sanctioned in the koran, those ARE your only choices, if you want to call them choices, convert, live as a dhimmi, or die.  Many dhimmi children and women were kidnapped and forced to convert under islamic rule.

We live in an age of electronic media, I have eyes, one only needs to turn on the computer or TV to see images coming from muslim countries to make me KNOW i wouldnt want to live that way.

Of course, you compare Iraq under sdam's rule to MUSLIM STATE OF THE 10th CENTURY, that's sounds very reasnoble.
Muslim rule WAS better than the CHRISTIAN rule in since the days of the Chaliphot untile the 20th century. Hitler was catholic and he destroyed 12 Milions of people, half are Jews, Hitler wanted to destroy the Jews that were in Morroco (My family, for exemple), but guess what, Morroco's king, Mohammed V of Morocco saved tham. When the Jews from Morroco came to Israel they wanted to call a street on his name, the goverment refused, and than there was a lot of mess; Wadi Salib events, Black Panthers (Israel) etc'

First of all, I want a proove it's in the Koran. Besides of that, the fact (seemingly) that it was in the Koran (De jure), doesn't mean they followd it (De facto), and they didn't.

[kellymaureen]

Islam has been evil from its conception, it was spread BY THE SWORD by a child molesting warlord.  Islam's hatred of non muslims is written right into it's texts, its there for anyone who cares to see it.  Muslims only offer truces (which are never kept) or extend their hand to non muslims IF IT BENEFITS them at the time.  The goal of islam is now and has been since it was invented, to rule the world under islamic law.  I fail to see why these things are so difficult to understand, I am not making them up, there are plenty of books written on the subject, some muslims will even admit it, or anyone who is interested can go right to the source, the koran, haidth, and sura and check it out for themselves.  One can go to any of the numerous sites for ex muslims, who WILL tell the truth about islam.

[Dexter]

Islam has been evil from its conception, it was spread BY THE SWORD by a child molesting warlord.  Islam's hatred of non muslims is written right into it's texts, its there for anyone who cares to see it.  Muslims only offer truces (which are never kept) or extend their hand to non muslims IF IT BENEFITS them at the time.  The goal of islam is now and has been since it was invented, to rule the world under islamic law.  I fail to see why these things are so difficult to understand, I am not making them up, there are plenty of books written on the subject, some muslims will even admit it, or anyone who is interested can go right to the source, the koran, haidth, and sura and check it out for themselves.  One can go to any of the numerous sites for ex muslims, who WILL tell the truth about islam.

The one problem is that you seems to think that Muslims were the ultimate evil, that all Muslims are evil, and ALL Islam is evil. You seems to ignore the facts that the Christians were MUCH worse than the Muslims, than the low argument of "There were always evil!!" is lost and can be disprooved easily by any Muslim, or a reasnoble person. The actual arguement, that is relevent to our days is that: "The Muslims are fanatics, they are close minded and are barberian, they have no mentally abillity to control thamselvs, they need Imams to control tham and manipulate tham to kill savagly, thing that serve their own intrest" and etc'.

[kellymaureen]

Look, youre a smart kid, you can read, the best way to understand it is to read it all for yourself, the koran isnt difficult to read (other than it isnt in any chronological order, and in many places seems like the ramblings of a madman) I read it in one night. You also must read the sura and haidth.  I have spent the last 6 years, reading any book i could on islam, also belonging to many forums for ex muslims, they are a courageous group of people, and WILL tell you the truth, and most of them have lived under sharia.
My brother also spent a year in saudi, which is run under "pure sharia" (their description) no civil human being would voluntarily live under that rule.
Also interestingly enough, he said that he has never seen as much openly homosexual activity than he did in islamic countries, for people who are supposed to be against it, they certainly dont seem to mind practicing it.
The koran is acted out daily, just check the 6pm news....what you see is the koran in action.
I could post hundreds of quotes, but that is just me telling you, its best to learn it for yourself, thats what i did.

[Dexter]

Look, youre a smart kid, you can read, the best way to understand it is to read it all for yourself, the koran isnt difficult to read (other than it isnt in any chronological order, and in many places seems like the ramblings of a madman) I read it in one night. You also must read the sura and haidth.  I have spent the last 6 years, reading any book i could on islam, also belonging to many forums for ex muslims, they are a courageous group of people, and WILL tell you the truth, and most of them have lived under sharia.
My brother also spent a year in saudi, which is run under "pure sharia" (their description) no civil human being would voluntarily live under that rule.
Also interestingly enough, he said that he has never seen as much openly homosexual activity than he did in islamic countries, for people who are supposed to be against it, they certainly dont seem to mind practicing it.
The koran is acted out daily, just check the 6pm news....what you see is the koran in action.
I could post hundreds of quotes, but that is just me telling you, its best to learn it for yourself, thats what i did.

I prefer to learn Arabic and THAN read the Kuran, that will be more fair and no one will tell me that I misunderstood it because I'v read it in the translated version.

[kellymaureen]

Fine, christians had their moments, but lets deal with the issues at hand...who is more likely to kill you today?  

We need to live in the PRESENT and deal with the here and now, if we expect to live at all.
Is Christianity or islam the greatest threat to the world today?

I havent seen any chrisitan suicide bombers, any christians flying planes into buildings, any christians screaming praise to their god while sawing a mans head off lately...but maybe im just not looking hard enough;)

Yes, all islam is evil

[kellymaureen]

Well my ex muslim friend Niala, assures me that its the same in arabic as it is translated.  She understands arabic, and speaks it a little, her father was an imam.  She said what is being said in mosques in the US in arabic is terrifying, and once in a while they get caught, but its so quickly forgotten that we will never learn.

[Dexter]

Fine, christians had their moments, but lets deal with the issues at hand...who is more likely to kill you today?  

We need to live in the PRESENT and deal with the here and now, if we expect to live at all.
Is Christianity or islam the greatest threat to the world today?

I havent seen any chrisitan suicide bombers, any christians flying planes into buildings, any christians screaming praise to their G-d while sawing a mans head off lately...but maybe im just not looking hard enough;)

Yes, all islam is evil

That's exectly what I'm saying, you shouldn't go to the past and say that the Muslims were evil, because they will show you the clear facts, that the Christian were "less nice" to the Jews. And of course Muslims are more dangoures in general.

~*Mills*~
Indeed, Mohammad angerd that the Jews and the Christians refused to accept his claims and than he planted antisimete messeges.

[Muck DeFuslims]

It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?

Where do you get these 'facts' from ?

Al-Jazeera ?

Oh sure, the mooozie satanic savages were friendly to Jews. Absolutely.

Why Mohamhead was friendly enough to chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men, while making their women watch. He was so friendly, he didn't kill the women, just raped and enslaved them. He even let the males without pubic hairs live for awhile.(the sick bastard actually pulled their garments down and checked for pubic hairs to determine which males were to be beheaded and the others enslaved.)

Yup, Islam sure has been a bundle of joy for Jews from it's very inception.

Jews should be grateful for such wonderful friends.

[Dexter]

It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?

Where do you get these 'facts' from ?

Al-Jazeera ?

Oh sure, the mooozie satanic savages were friendly to Jews. Absolutely.

Why Mohamhead was friendly enough to chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men, while making their women watch. He was so friendly, he didn't kill the women, just raped and enslaved them. He even let the males without pubic hairs live for awhile.(the sick bastard actually pulled their garments down and checked for pubic hairs to determine which males were to be beheaded and the others enslaved.)

Yup, Islam sure has been a bundle of joy for Jews from it's very inception.

Jews should be grateful for such wonderful friends.

From a gather of books that tells you about a lovly term name "History", ever heard of it ? What I am saying are facts, and there is no a slight chance that you will disproove tham. A freinly tip: don't even try.

I never said the Muslims were "freindly" to the Jews, what I said is basiclly that it was better for Jews to live under Muslim rule rether than a Christian one.

The ideas of "chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men" is nonesense, there are no evidences for those claims. Besides, acorrding the the bible the Jews destroyed a lot of people, the Christians, well, killed milions in the Crusades and Milions in prugrom and milions in the Holocauste. In a historical point of view, the Christians were pretty fanatic and evil in the past, even as the Muslims are today.

[HiWarp]

It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?

Where do you get these 'facts' from ?

Al-Jazeera ?

Oh sure, the mooozie satanic savages were friendly to Jews. Absolutely.

Why Mohamhead was friendly enough to chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men, while making their women watch. He was so friendly, he didn't kill the women, just raped and enslaved them. He even let the males without pubic hairs live for awhile.(the sick bastard actually pulled their garments down and checked for pubic hairs to determine which males were to be beheaded and the others enslaved.)

Yup, Islam sure has been a bundle of joy for Jews from it's very inception.

Jews should be grateful for such wonderful friends.

From a gather of books that tells you about a lovly term name "History", ever heard of it ? What I am saying are facts, and there is no a slight chance that you will disproove tham. A freinly tip: don't even try.

I never said the Muslims were "freindly" to the Jews, what I said is basiclly that it was better for Jews to live under Muslim rule rether than a Christian one.

The ideas of "chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men" is nonesense, there are no evidences for those claims. Besides, acorrding the the bible the Jews destroyed a lot of people, the Christians, well, killed milions in the Crusades and Milions in prugrom and milions in the Holocauste. In a historical point of view, the Christians were pretty fanatic and evil in the past, even as the Muslims are today.

Yes, but what is your point?  That ALL cultures and religions have at one time or another in history done vicious and cruel things?  How does that relate to what is happening in the world today?

[Dexter]

It's a fact that Islam and Muslims, in generall, were more freindly to Jews than the Christians. But in the 20th-19th they reveald some dark aspects of Islam that made tham so antisimetics.
What in your opinion made tham reveal those aspects ?

Where do you get these 'facts' from ?

Al-Jazeera ?

Oh sure, the mooozie satanic savages were friendly to Jews. Absolutely.

Why Mohamhead was friendly enough to chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men, while making their women watch. He was so friendly, he didn't kill the women, just raped and enslaved them. He even let the males without pubic hairs live for awhile.(the sick bastard actually pulled their garments down and checked for pubic hairs to determine which males were to be beheaded and the others enslaved.)

Yup, Islam sure has been a bundle of joy for Jews from it's very inception.

Jews should be grateful for such wonderful friends.

From a gather of books that tells you about a lovly term name "History", ever heard of it ? What I am saying are facts, and there is no a slight chance that you will disproove tham. A freinly tip: don't even try.

I never said the Muslims were "freindly" to the Jews, what I said is basiclly that it was better for Jews to live under Muslim rule rether than a Christian one.

The ideas of "chop the heads off of 900 Jewish men" is nonesense, there are no evidences for those claims. Besides, acorrding the the bible the Jews destroyed a lot of people, the Christians, well, killed milions in the Crusades and Milions in prugrom and milions in the Holocauste. In a historical point of view, the Christians were pretty fanatic and evil in the past, even as the Muslims are today.

Yes, but what is your point?  That ALL cultures and religions have at one time or another in history done vicious and cruel things?  How does that relate to what is happening in the world today?

I know that, that's why I always remind to the gentiles here that say that the Muslims were always evil that the Christians were also evil, therefor this argumant can be disprooved easily, and it isn't a good idea to use such kind of arguements. And we are out of topic.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Listen up, Dex.

You clearly said moozies were 'more friendly' to Jews than Christians were.

Your words.

Don't try denying them because they're there for all to see.

Maybe you meant to say 'less hostile'. But you didn't. You said 'more friendly'.

And as far as the chopping off the heads of 900 Jewish men being nonsense...it's obvious you know nothing of Islam and haven't read Islamic source material.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can take the word of the mooozies themselves. The historical incident is documented in the numerous accounts of Mo's life which comprise the hadith. The head chopping, raping and counting of pubic hairs are there to read, but you'll have to pull your head out of your colon to do so. Try Bukhari or Muslim.

You want to talk 'facts' ?

You better get yours straight before you try spreading mooozie propaganda and disinformation on this forum. 

[Dexter]

Listen up, Dex.

You clearly said moozies were 'more friendly' to Jews than Christians were.

Your words.

Don't try denying them because they're there for all to see.

Maybe you meant to say 'less hostile'. But you didn't. You said 'more friendly'.

And as far as the chopping off the heads of 900 Jewish men being nonsense...it's obvious you know nothing of Islam and haven't read Islamic source material.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can take the word of the mooozies themselves. The historical incident is documented in the numerous accounts of Mo's life which comprise the hadith. The head chopping, raping and counting of pubic hairs are there to read, but you'll have to pull your head out of your colon to do so. Try Bukhari or Muslim.

You want to talk 'facts' ?

You better get yours straight before you try spreading mooozie propaganda and disinformation on this forum. 

No, what I said was 'Less "Freindly"..' aha, now it gets much more diffrent meaning.

And instead of claiming that I don't know nothing about Islam and the Arab history (here you can see page I wrote myself about the Arab rule in the land of Israel (Hebrew): http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%94_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C and about Muslim cult name Karamatim: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9D), just give me prooves, of history books.

If we want to be moral, lets not lie to ourselfs about history, agreed ?
I wonder why you seem to be so angry, almost in any post of yours, any reason for that ?