My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)

[Raulmarrio2000]

Anyone who believes a religion or a branch of it is fake, is also bound to believe what they teach must be fake. If you already have decided that the whole Koran is fake, then you have no right to say who are the true Muslims. You have already declared Muhammad is not a prophet, so what's the sense of saying that terrorist are true Muslims, and those who are peacefull are no longer Muslims? Once you have declared it's fake, then you are bound to believe thay are all fake.
And those who believe in Koran...let them decide whay meaning they believe!
Up till 1965 all Catholic believed Jews are cursed, and rememeber that during the first milenia of Christianity, al Christians were Catholic, there was no Reform. Using the same arguments you should say that anyone who is not a "traditional" Catholic (Those who rejected Pope John 23's changes) are fake Christians.
Regarding Sarah, she's very young. She's come here and never said anything against the Jews. If she were a Jew-hater she would spend her time in anti-Semitic anti-Zionist forums, or perhaps she'd go to false peacefull forums which support Pals. and want to divide Jerusalem.
So better leave her in peace. It's cruel to storm her mind for a violent verses in the books of her parents.
I am always very carefull not to storm teens, even anti-semite teens, unless they really attack or offend Jews in that moment. If they only have a bad concept of Jews, or have been taught to dislike non Catholics (as it's the case here) I just leave them alone while thay are teens.
A long time ago when I hadn't even been interested in Judaism ( even if I had already abandoned paganism, I still didn't know about conversions or Noachidism) I used to listen to Kol Yisrael radio from Jerusalem. I was just a fan of Short Wave radios, epecially in English, as I was learning English. I wrote a letter to Kol Israel and they sent me plenty of magazines about Israel and Jerusalem.
A Catholic teen who came to my mother's house was amazed at those magazines from so far away, and asked how he could buy them. I told him that they were not sold in Argentina, that they were sent as a courtesy by Kol Israel to the listeners who wrote to them and commented on their programs. And the teen said "But Israelis are Jews, and Jews are evils who reject Jesus, how could I write to Israel?". I just replied that he should respect all religions. I was thinking to myself, it were the Catholic who were evil, burnt Jews and have taught your parents to hate, and so it was taught to you also. In fact it's you that is into evil without knowing!!! But I kept my thoughts to myself, why storming a teen?

[Lubab]

Muslims also say that Jews were cursed by G-d because they asked too many questions and that some even asked Moses to take them up mount sinai, to talk to G-d. G-d spoke to them and then questioned Him and asked to see Him, G-d blinded them.

I was once told that you had to believe in Islam before anybody could question it....

Ask her/him for one place in thver and e Bible where it says the entire Jewish people are cursed. What a lie. The Jewish people are said to be blessed in the Bible oover again. Not only that but it repeatedly says that the other nations are blessed through the blessing of the Jews. For saying that the Jewish people are cursed the Bible promises says that these Muslims will be cursed. That's the real truth. (bless them that bless thee..)


Are individual Jews sometimes punished? Of course they are but to say that because of that they are cursed as a people completely contradicts the Bible and is true heresy.

The Bible. Read it. Learn it. Live it. Read it yourself and stop swallowing these lies.

[newman]

Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.

Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?

If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?

Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.

[Dr. Dan]

Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.

Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?

If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?

Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.

Newman you bring up a very key issue with Islam and Muslims...None of them question the Koran..lest if some of them did, they woudl be beheaded!
however, Christians do it with their own scriptures..and Jews have been doing it since the beginning of time...And as a result, look at our wonderful Talmud...it's our way of understanding the hidden message.

But Islam is like the jealous sibling that wants to be number one and so he tries to beat up no the other siblings and prove to his parents that he's the best child...and look what Mohammed did...he copied our religion but just replaced Jews with muslims...and cut out all the stuff he didnt' like and made the Koran like it was the best thing since slice bread..but it reality is and always will be a fraudulant religion..I'm sad to see that humans have to do this to feel included...no humility..all pride...it's sick i tell you SICK! Want to just kick them all in the nuts!

[newman]

Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.

Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?

If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?

Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.

Newman you bring up a very key issue with Islam and Muslims...None of them question the Koran..lest if some of them did, they woudl be beheaded!
however, Christians do it with their own scriptures..and Jews have been doing it since the beginning of time...And as a result, look at our wonderful Talmud...it's our way of understanding the hidden message.

But Islam is like the jealous sibling that wants to be number one and so he tries to beat up no the other siblings and prove to his parents that he's the best child...and look what Mohammed did...he copied our religion but just replaced Jews with muslims...and cut out all the stuff he didnt' like and made the Koran like it was the best thing since slice bread..but it reality is and always will be a fraudulant religion..I'm sad to see that humans have to do this to feel included...no humility..all pride...it's sick i tell you SICK! Want to just kick them all in the nuts!

I agree.

I couldn't care less about filthy turd world arabs and other losers having their lives made miserable by iSSlam. But Sarah is so bright, lovely and gifted it's a vile crime for her to be consumed by this evil. The thought of her wearing a bag, living in a hovel and being treated like livestock by some muSSlim pig makes me want to butcher muSSlims wholesale!!

[Dr. Dan]

Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.

Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?

If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?

Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.

Newman you bring up a very key issue with Islam and Muslims...None of them question the Koran..lest if some of them did, they woudl be beheaded!
however, Christians do it with their own scriptures..and Jews have been doing it since the beginning of time...And as a result, look at our wonderful Talmud...it's our way of understanding the hidden message.

But Islam is like the jealous sibling that wants to be number one and so he tries to beat up no the other siblings and prove to his parents that he's the best child...and look what Mohammed did...he copied our religion but just replaced Jews with muslims...and cut out all the stuff he didnt' like and made the Koran like it was the best thing since slice bread..but it reality is and always will be a fraudulant religion..I'm sad to see that humans have to do this to feel included...no humility..all pride...it's sick i tell you SICK! Want to just kick them all in the nuts!

I agree.

I couldn't care less about filthy turd world arabs and other losers having their lives made miserable by iSSlam. But Sarah is so bright, lovely and gifted it's a vile crime for her to be consumed by this evil. The thought of her wearing a bag, living in a hovel and being treated like livestock by some muSSlim pig makes me want to butcher muSSlims wholesale!!

honestly, you are starting to sound a little bit "liberal" like me in regards to this...LOL..I guess I have that effect on hardcore righties.  Nevertheless, I would end this thread by telling Sarah, "We are here for her when she needs us anything we can do to help.  However, if you are not ready to leave, don't forget what we have told you..goodbye and good luck. We will pray for your strength to leave evil doers safely."  Honestly, I know of one Persian Muslim girl who secretly and truely converted to Judaism and after her parents found out almost kicked the living day lights out of her..Thank Gd she knew enough Takkiya to fool her parents that she gave it all up...but continues to secretly be Jewish.  Oddly enough, her name is Sara also.

[newman]

And consider this, Sarah............

All the people on this forum love you and care about you. Even if you do revert to Islam, we'll all keep you in our prayers and wish you only peace and happiness.

Those muSSlims you associate with and that you THINK care about you will all wish you dead if you leave iSSlam.

What's the more worthy faith?

[q_q_]

Let us use Truth as our yardstick

sarah mentions this idea that the jews are cursed,
(I see you are thinking about how islam claims to be a continuation of judaism.. what it claims. I asked myself the question of Does the Torah refute this idea)

Besides what I said about why islam is false..  (really there is no need to go further)

This idea islam claims also conflicts with the idea that is a continuation of judaism.

According to the Torah, the Jews are blessed when they follow the Torah, and cursed/punished, when they do not.

The torah says you cannot add or delete from it.   Islam deletes all the jewish commandments. And adds all of its own.   Islam does not follow the Torah.  Even muslims would agree with that.

So here is the clincher.
According to the Torah.  If Jews follow the Quran, then they are CURSED!!!!!!!

note- muslims claim, as usual, without evidence, that we "corrupted" the torah.  Besides the reasons for why they claim this, and the reasons why it is not.    They could in theory, say you corrupted it, so you do not follow it, so you are cursed.    One could respond, and say what is your evidence that it is corrupted. And they have none. BUT, this is all irrelevant, since   Following the Quran would for sure result in curses!!!

Sarah mentioned Elijah.  That is Eliyahu HaNavi who I mentioned in a previous post.  The Tenach mentions at the end of the books of prophets, that we should keep the torah, and eventually he will return and help bring us to Torah.    So, this is another thing that shows that according to the Tenach, the torah is eternal.   
Even if you try to read in some out of context interpretation that corroborates with islam, and pretend that only parts are eternal, like the eating of matza which it says is eternal, then islam does not require that that be done. Muslims do not do it.   

You do not need to go as far as this, in disproving islam. But you can..    

If everybody around you believed in little green martians, would you try to disprove it? Good luck? `cos they are invisible. You can`t smell them?  Didn`t I tell you that they don`t smell, they are very very clean.

I spoke to a muslim once that believed that little demons (jinn) were hanging onto people and whispering in their ears, and that is why you have homosexuals and the like.   Muslims believe the quran was given to mankind and jinn.    But they believe in jinn because they believe in islam.  And islam has as much evidence for it, as invisible little green martians.

[q_q_]

my answers to these 2 questions you asked, have been very complete.

I understand your questions, because I asked myself those questions when muslims were "inviting me to islam".

I do not know how you want to play this at your school... I suggest you do not show knowledge of the torah.  Muslims will be suspicious of you..  The number one thing is that you should be safe.

remember that the punishment for apostacy in islam, is death.   
now, in britain, there was a program on recently, on how a muslim became christian, and had has had to move home, he had his windows smashed, he has not been killed - this is britain still!!!  He was beaten up, and so was his sister.  They were beaten up together.

Jews do not encourage people to become jewish.    Your life would be all the harder if you did..   Judaism does not say that you need to be jewish to be saved.  Better than being a muslim. You could be a noachide, and your friends could just think you are a bit secular, or a lapsed muslim. 

Put your safety first, and do not let muslims suspect that you are considering other religions.
They will be friendly when you ask them questions about What they believe.  But if you start coming to them with quotes from the Tenach, they won`t just not like it. They will be suspicious of you, they make you feel uncomfortable, who knows what would happen..   You are in a muslim environment, and you are from a muslim family.. So be smart about your safety.



 

[Zelhar]

Muslims also say that Jews were cursed by G-d because they asked too many questions and that some even asked Moses to take them up mount sinai, to talk to G-d. G-d spoke to them and then questioned Him and asked to see Him, G-d blinded them.

I was once told that you had to believe in Islam before anybody could question it....

I can't recall a single accurate quote of Jewish lore in the Quran, they are all completely corrupt and distorted, out of malice and ignorance. And specifically regarding the above quote, There is Talmudic  Midrash which tells how the jews said "We shall Comply and we shall hear" in that order, when Moses asked them if they would accept the Torah, and in the Quran this story is completely corrupted, and in surah  2:93 The Israelites supposedly tell God in mount Sinai as He gives them the torah: "We shall hear and we shall defy".

And moreover, it is said that had the Israelites refused the Torah, then God would have crush them beneath the mountain.

[Lubab]

Great posts by zelhar and q_q.

I find that a fascinating and very telling corruption of the Torah that you mention Zelhar. I hope you are paying attention Sarah.

Here's Surah 2:93: 

We made a covenant with you, as we raised Mount Sinai above you, saying, "You shall uphold the commandments we have given you, strongly, and listen." They said, "We hear, but we disobey." Their hearts became filled with adoration for the calf, due to their disbelief. Say, "Miserable indeed is what your faith dictates upon you, if you do have any faith."

And here is the orignal verse and I"m going to use King James translation here just to bend over backwards to be neutral:

Exodous 24:7:

And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.[/
---
Yet another of the ample examples of Koranic corruption of the truth in the effort to demonize the Jews just as all Amalekites have done before Mohammed (YSVZ) and after him.

[Sarah]

Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.

Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?

If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?

Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.

Because there are some verses that very good, I cannot believe they were written simply by a scribe. As for the others I do not Ignore them.

There are many intelligent people that think the Quran is spectacular, not just muslims but scientists and scholars. Why do they?
I fear that I will make a wrong decision. In fact, I know this sounds weird, but i'm scared of the Quran.

I tried breaking out of the habit of following Islam today. Just to see  if it made a difference. We had a Quran test today, where we have to recite some verses that we memorise. I couldn't even say them, I wanted to, but my mouth wouldn't even let me.

The bible is a lot more complicated then the Quran, you're right.
 

[ftf]

The good bits of the Quran are generally things copied from the Bible or the Talmud, I can source most of them if you want me too... Though it would take hours and I don't have that time right now, on Friday I should have some time, if you give me a shortish list of "good" Quranic quotes I'll find where they've been copied from for you.

[Sarah]

Thank you.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Sarah,

Why are you continuing to struggle with this? You know that the culture in which you have been raised is evil. Everybody here is right--if there are parts of the Koran that look good, it is because it was copied from the Judeo-Christian Bible!

None of the "good" parts of the Koran are ever lived out!

[Dr. Dan]

Sarah,

Why are you continuing to struggle with this? You know that the culture in which you have been raised is evil. Everybody here is right--if there are parts of the Koran that look good, it is because it was copied from the Judeo-Christian Bible!

None of the "good" parts of the Koran are ever lived out!

perhaps i can articulate the way I think Sarah feels...Imagine if the truth, Gd forbid, was that Gd really never existed and your whole life this was the truth you only knew to understand.  But by the evidence the other person was showing it coudl possibly be true!  Can't you imagine how hard that woudl be break out of that habit of beleiving Gd?! 

So perhaps to Sarah, the Koran is like her Gd her truth and no matter what we might say to prove to her that it isn't truth.  It's not easy for her. I feel for her...and the right thing to do is for those who can on this forum to help her understand..and if she can never get away from it at the age of 15, then we can only pray that she will have the strength to break free.

In a way, what Sarah is goign through reminds me of the way Abraham was as a child or teenager when he was realizing what Gd really was...and not some sort of idol. Since Sarah seeks the truth, she will find her answer with her own udnerstanding and we should do our best within reason to help her.

[Lubab]

The good bits of the Quran are generally things copied from the Bible or the Talmud, I can source most of them if you want me too... Though it would take hours and I don't have that time right now, on Friday I should have some time, if you give me a shortish list of "good" Quranic quotes I'll find where they've been copied from for you.

I will also make a similar challenge. Find me the quotes you think are "good" and I'll tell you how they are found in the Torah in a more accurate and even better fashion. Every religion has some good in it or else nobody would ever convert to it.

But remember: a half-truth is a whole lie.

If even one word in the Koran is found to go against the true original Bible, that means the entire thing can't be trusted.

[newman]

Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.

Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?

If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?

Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.

Because there are some verses that very good, I cannot believe they were written simply by a scribe. As for the others I do not Ignore them.

There are many intelligent people that think the Quran is spectacular, not just muslims but scientists and scholars. Why do they?
I fear that I will make a wrong decision. In fact, I know this sounds weird, but i'm scared of the Quran.


 

Anything based on and copied from Torah will have good parts.

There are schollars who wax lyrical about the teachings of the Buhdda and Bagavad Gita, too.

How can you make a wrong decision? All you're doing differently by leaving islam is rejecting terror, female subjugation, Jew-hatred and sharia cruelty. Noachidism is Torah for gentiles OR islam with the evil removed. You don't have to tell your family immediately. Just pretend your busy with study and not so observant. Sounds like some of your family aren't real observant, either.

[yeshuadisciple]

Mohamed was also in contact with Christians who were considered heretical in their beliefs which just adds more confusion to the Koran. 

[Ralph1]

Sarah, I know you don't think infidels must be exterminated but do you believe all non-Muslims will burn in hell forever or at best non-Muslims will be unable to earn a place in Heaven? Even someone like mother Teresa? Please be honest. I bet there are also Christians on this forum that believe this.

[newman]

Sarah, I know you don't think infidels must be exterminated but do you believe all non-Muslims will burn in hell forever or at best non-Muslims will be unable to earn a place in Heaven? Even someone like mother Teresa? Please be honest. I bet there are also Christians on this forum that believe this.

We all know she doesn't think that, but islam does (or dhimitude/slavery). The point is that if she disagrees with this, she CAN'T be a muslim.

[q_q_]

Because there are some verses that very good, I cannot believe they were written simply by a scribe. As for the others I do not Ignore them.

There are many intelligent people that think the Quran is spectacular, not just muslims but scientists and scholars. Why do they?
I fear that I will make a wrong decision. In fact, I know this sounds weird, but i'm scared of the Quran.

I tried breaking out of the habit of following Islam today. Just to see  if it made a difference. We had a Quran test today, where we have to recite some verses that we memorise. I couldn't even say them, I wanted to, but my mouth wouldn't even let me.

The bible is a lot more complicated then the Quran, you're right.

You should have read more carefully. Remember when I said islam stands on a mountain of hoaxes?
like the scientific hoaxes?
The scientist thing IS A HOAX.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/DGolden/touting_science.htm

I could elaborate alot on this subject.  Most muslims do believe in it.   But I hope it is not necessary to elaborate.

And "scholars"? There are many christian scholars and muslim scholars and jewish and buddist scholars. That does not make them all correct. 

Nice verses!!!
note- Putting aside whether islam has nice verses or not.

Every religion has nice verses, infact, I recall a guy on a website complaining that he wanted to find bad passages, in sikhism like other religions, but he could not find it in sikhism. It has equality of the sexes , and many concepts which agree to western values and ethics. And was written long ago.   

It is not about verses you find "nice" and verses you find "not nice", that does not make something true or false.

Man is capable of writing nice things.  (sometimes for bad reasons). Do you now think that every religion had G-d write the nice verses, and a man invent the rest ?  By the reasoning you apply to the quran, yes !

Anyhow. If you do not accept the totality of the quran then you are not a muslim.
Similarly, religious jews - if they are honest - would accept the totality of Torah.

You know there are sects of jews that do not accept the totality of torah.. The truth is they do not accept any of it. They just take what they like.  Nowadays, around 50% of reform conservative and liberal rabbis admit they do not believe in G-d !!  In Rabbi Kahane`s time it was 30%, and he thought that was outrageous.

You should see sense that islam is not divinely revealed from G-d. It is false.

And then have the sense, not to say that in your islammic school !! Because if you want to be safe, you are going to have to be smart - like you can be.

In your school, if you are in danger from not reciting some text from the quran, then just recite it. The Quran is worthless. But your life is valuable.   A school is somewhere you have to go back to every day. (unless you change school, and you are reliant on your parents). So be careful..

I would be able to recite a horrible verse. Just accept that mohammed said it.  Don`t fool yourself into believing mohammed was a saint

And do not seriously accept this idea of accepting some of islam and not others. Because doing that, to any religion, is even more stupid. Since the religion makes a divine claim, on its totality.  And that is the basis for its belief or rejection.  We know that any man or woman can produce nice verses. (or horrible verses).




 

[Ralph1]

We all know she doesn't think that, but islam does (or dhimitude/slavery). The point is that if she disagrees with this, she CAN'T be a muslim.

She said she doesn't agree with the killing of innocent people but I don't think I read any post saying she doesn't think non-Muslims will go to hell or it's possible for them to earn a place in Heaven. And also, Sarah, when Muhammad insults infidels calling them apes, devils dogs and pigs (hey guys type in devils dogs pigs and koran in google and JTF is the first search result  ) and deaf dumb and blind do you agree with this?

[q_q_]

you say you are scared of the quran. 

islam has some extreme threats.. A thorny plant shoved down your throat. That your skin will be burnt and replaced with a new skin that will be burnt e.t.c.   72 virgins if you follow it, No virgins if you do not! 
 
lots of religions can give threats..  I think some forms of christianity say that a person goes to hell unless they believe in jesus as lord and saviour.

You cannot accept both.

But, you are only hearing and questioning the things you hear about islam From Muslims.

I know that, because I recognise the questions you have asked..


Mohammed himself as you must know had sex with a 9 year old girl.  (apparently she had hit puberty, bubt she still played with dolls. She was still a 9 year old girl.  )
Actually, mohammed in the quran writes about marrying and having sex with and divorcing little girls too young to menstruate.   Quran 65:4 , see tafsir.
Mohammed taught that heaven will be filled with 72 virgins and then in the hadith, they are described.  You know how they are described?   Amongst other things, they will be *like a she camel in heat*. A camel in heat is happy, but what is distinct about a she camel, is that her vagina swells up in the heat. Obviously mohammed and the arab men he wrote for, had watched that and "loved" that. To the extent they even knew what he was referring to when he said "she camel in heat".   

You are only shown islam through a simple framework that covers up the problematic bits.
The Quran is complex- in that it is a mess.  The first verse "revealed to mohammed" is in 96:1 , and one of the last verses given to mohammed is in chapter 3. That is what islam itself claims, though muslims do not voice that when they try to convince you.  There is no logical reason for that order, i.e. it is jumbled up. The chapters, and even the verses within the chapters.  (unlike the torah which is thousands of years in chrological order)
You can learn all this FROM EX MUSLIMS. You would never hear this from muslims.
http://www.youtube.com/user/iceyyy  - she has some videos from "investigateislam", and some videos she did herself, such as the one about the she camel.

Once you see this. It will be so obvious who mohammed was, what he was,  and what he was not. You would have to be insane to even consider the possibility that he was a prophet.  (besides the fact that he made no prophesies) , that his teachings are from G-d. He was a very perverted arab man in a desert, writing for desperate arab men in a desert.  Men who understand sex and violence.  And the sex is so perverted, little girls, comparisons to horses and camels.  This is written by a disgusting man.

One can say beyond any doubt, not just "I do not believe islam".  But "I believe islam is false".
Either way, one is not a muslim!

And just being scared of islam`s threats in hell, is no reason to consider it.. Since other religions also make threats. like as I said, some forms of christianity say one goes to hell if one does not accept jesus as lord and saviour.  You cannot believe both.



 

[mord]

Sarah look at this orthodox Jewish scientist from the top U.S. university he turned Famous British atheist into beleiving in G-D and creation                  http://www.geraldschroeder.com/index.html