Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
What I hope to happen is for the Haredim to develope zealousness against fighting our externel enemies (mainly the arabs, u.n. etc.), and the National Religious/ Sefardim to develope and help in the campaign of fighting the internel enemies (Immodesty, evil gay culture, the selling of pork, etc.) We cant have one without the other.
No Arabs, No Pork - ;)
Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
Kahanism agrees with this comprehensive plan completely, but right now the greatest emergency is Israel's survival!
Dominater96:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on November 29, 2007, 02:56:32 AM ---There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
--- End quote ---
Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Dominater96 on November 29, 2007, 06:05:34 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on November 29, 2007, 02:56:32 AM ---There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.
I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.
The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.
The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.
If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.
You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.
The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.
They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!! Why aren't we doing it?"
And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?
That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?
It's the truth, but it is hard to take.
Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.
A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.
B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.
C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.
D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.
I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.
Yes, I do.
The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.
The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!
If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.
Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.
--- End quote ---
Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?
--- End quote ---
Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.
טז כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה. וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע. וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.
Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?
Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.
יד [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד: אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.
טו כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.
And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.
His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.
And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.
If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.
NO ONE.
machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.
Merkava:
Geez......Excellent Video !!!
No disrespect to anyone in the forum but this video reminded me why my sister who is Israeli dislikes the ultra orthodox:
1) They are easily except of the military service
2) The live off benefits & state handouts
No disrespect to anyone in the forum (I know all you super religious right wingers will hate me for this)
I admire the ultra orthodox who work, contribute and serve in the military (just like the lady in the documentary) but the ones who beat that woman up in the bus and don't work should be slapped around with a huge pork chop. YOU DON'T HIT A WOMAN. (unless she is holding a gun to your head!)
I agree that certain parts in Jerusalem should be kept discrete - we still have to preserve our identity but I would not like to see Israel turn into an Ultra Orthodox State. The only positive aspect of the video was the burning of the crematorium.
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