Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
q_q_:
--- Quote from: shimon on January 04, 2008, 02:59:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 03, 2008, 07:22:50 PM ---No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one. Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefaradi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim. One should follow what his fathers followed.
--- End quote ---
is this a joke i am ashkenaz but i know there are many flaws in our hebrew. such as ashkenazim say o as oy as in gemarah some ashkenazim say gemoyrah. and there more and how come ashkenziam say gut shabbos that is not even close to hebrew its shabot shalom
--- End quote ---
well, Gut is obviously Yiddish. The word itself is yiddish
You have really got totally confused
It is not even a hebrew word pronounced in yiddish . That is plain yiddish.
there are other examples.. Of hebrew words spoken in Yiddish. Yaakuv is yiddish. SuhCus is yiddish. Correct ashkenazi hebrew, there is no uh there, in either of the words. it should be SueCose, and YaaKove. Ask any lainer. The cholem sound has variant traditions though - depending on place in europe the ashkenazim were from, .. Ai,Oy,ow
But don`t go saying ashkenazy hebrew is so wrong, andas if sephardi is right. That is just false. I mentioned about the taf. And I am sure sephardim have variations too.. Not just yemenites and the rest.
judeanoncapta:
No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.
But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?
Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?
And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."
That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.
That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on January 06, 2008, 11:29:05 AM ---No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.
--- End quote ---
I don`t know to whome you are referring your statement to.
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on January 06, 2008, 11:29:05 AM ---But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?
Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?
And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."
That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.
That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.
--- End quote ---
it is difficult enough to switch from the Ivrit/modern hebrew/secular zionist pronounciation taught in modern orthodox schools and many shuls. Into our father`s ashkenazi or sephardi pronounciation.
But to change to a pronounciation that only Rabbi Bar Hayyim and his students know, that is just unfeasible. And if he is so sure, then he should write an article that proves it beyond any doubt. Proving not just that neither ashkenazi nor sephardi can be right. But proving that his pronounciation is right. And then that can be put to expert rabbis with different positions, and we can see the arguments against. And then we can decide what is correct.
jdl4ever:
It is irrelevant if the Hebrew letters sound exactly like they did 1000 years ago since regional variations are considered acceptable ever since the Biblical Era. I remember in Shoftim it says that a certain tribe pronounced the Shin as a Sin.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on January 06, 2008, 01:14:35 PM ---It is irrelevant if the Hebrew letters sound exactly like they did 1000 years ago since regional variations are considered acceptable ever since the Biblical Era. I remember in Shoftim it says that a certain tribe pronounced the Shin as a Sin.
--- End quote ---
I am not sure where it is there, but
I heard it as they *couldn`t* pronounce it. So they pronounced it as sin. It was a mistake to do so!
http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=2091 <-- excuse the website!
in this portion the word shever meaning rations or food is used several times. Torah teaches that one of the southern tribes of Israel, Ephraim, could not pronounce the "sh" sound and always pronounced it as an "s." The word shever then became sever which means hope. The midrash explains that not only was there food in Egypt, but hope as well. When is food like hope? Have you and your family ever participated in feeding the hungry? If you have, did it feel like you were spreading hope? (Genesis Rabbah 91.1)
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Furthermore, modern hebrew pronounciation is man made. Don`t put that on the same level as our traditions.
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