Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State

[judeanoncapta]

Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.

 Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.

Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.

I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefardi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefardi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.

That is our only identity.

 Yehudhi.

Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.

It's not good for you.

[OdKahaneChai]

im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).

I don't think this is a lot of good. The faggots are not threatening Israel with annihilation, and as offensive as it is, neither is the cremation site. A Kahanist government would fight to save Israel right now and would deal with the fags later.

But this is what so many people don't understand, this is saving Israel!  The Arabs would pose no threat, no threat whatsoever to the Jewish people if Jews weren't a threat to the Jewish people.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Odhahane is right, the problem is also that many only see the physical danger and not the deeper problems that are much greater then the problems with arabs. If people would realize russian non-jews in Israel for example caused and cause much more problems then the arabs. Things like prostitution, homosexuality, drugs and all the other gifts from the western world is destroying Jews and Israel a lot more then arabs with bombs.

[Dexter]

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

Intresting. I thought that the Yemenite Jews were the only Jews who didn't accepted that Herem about polygamy, could you provide a source ?

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sefardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

The Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate and original one.

[q_q_]

Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.

 Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.

Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.

I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefaradi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefaradi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.

That is our only identity.

 Yehudhi.

Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.

It's not good for you.

Our ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions go way back, and include not just customs (which I have heard from rabbi bar hayyim, can drop off rain off a raincoat if moving).  But they include pronounciation. 

Suppose people trade in their ashkenazi and Sefaradi differences(customs and pronounciation i guess). We cannot trade them in for the original, before the split, since we do not have the original.

It would be wrong for ashkenazim and Sefaradim to trade their customs for Ashkefadi. It is no better than what they had before. It would probably be a confused inconsistent mishmash.

We should not trade our pronounciation for the "Modern hebrew" pronounciation. That is just east european secular zionists throwing away their heritage by adopting a largely Sefaradi pronounciation, but not getting the details right, because they, those socialists, wanted to get rid of judaism anyway.

A solution may be what Rabbi Bar Hayyim has done.. to adopt a pronounciation which is probably like or equal to, yemenite.. Or based on descriptions from rav saadya gaon.  To research what one thinks is the most correct pronounciation.  And regarding customs, he, based on jewish sources, throws them off and adopts the ones of the place he lives - israel.

Though although they go way back. If  rabbi bar hayyim is developing minchag eretz yisroel, then it is very easy for him to suggest adopting it!!!

 

[judeanoncapta]

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

Intresting. I thought that the Yemenite Jews were the only Jews who didn't accepted that Herem about polygamy, could you provide a source ?

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sefardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

The Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate and original one.

The Entire Sefardic and Mizrahi world rejected the Herem of Rabenu Gershom and polygamy was universal in the Mizrahi world.

And true, the Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate although it has three mistakes. There is no Jimel in Hebrew so pronouncing a Gimel as a J sound is wrong and and the Quf should be  pronouced exactly as it is in Aramaic and Arabic not as a G like the Yemenites do and the Holem should be an O not an UI. Otherwise their pronunciation is flawless.

I have recently switched from my Ashkenazi pronunciation to the correct one and I suggest that all Jews do the same. In fact, the Torah requires it of them.

[judeanoncapta]

Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.

 Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.

Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.

I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefaradi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefaradi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.

That is our only identity.

 Yehudhi.

Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.

It's not good for you.

Our ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions go way back, and include not just customs (which I have heard from rabbi bar hayyim, can drop off rain off a raincoat if moving).  But they include pronounciation. 

Suppose people trade in their ashkenazi and Sefaradi differences(customs and pronounciation i guess). We cannot trade them in for the original, before the split, since we do not have the original.

It would be wrong for ashkenazim and Sefaradim to trade their customs for Ashkefadi. It is no better than what they had before. It would probably be a confused inconsistent mishmash.

We should not trade our pronounciation for the "Modern hebrew" pronounciation. That is just east european secular zionists throwing away their heritage by adopting a largely Sefaradi pronounciation, but not getting the details right, because they, those socialists, wanted to get rid of judaism anyway.

A solution may be what Rabbi Bar Hayyim has done.. to adopt a pronounciation which is probably like or equal to, yemenite.. Or based on descriptions from rav saadya gaon.  To research what one thinks is the most correct pronounciation.  And regarding customs, he, based on jewish sources, throws them off and adopts the ones of the place he lives - israel.

Though although they go way back. If  rabbi bar hayyim is developing minchag eretz yisroel, then it is very easy for him to suggest adopting it!!!

 

Thanks for the plug,

Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.

And who cares how old a minhag is?

When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Actually I heard from Rav Zamir Cohen that the Yeminite Pronounciation is the most correct one, and specifically the Jimmel. (it was mentioned in one of his lectures, hes a big Rabbi In israel who is actually launching T.V. broadcast of lectures to Israel T.V. sets.)

[q_q_]

Thanks for the plug,

are you rabbi bar hayyim?   ;-)

Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.

And who cares how old a minhag is?

When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.

different minhagim are not causing the disunity that causes problems today.  The problem in israel is between Jews and anti-jews.

Sephardim and Ashkenazim get on fine for the most part. Apart from some ashkenazim that sort of see sephardim as arabs!(though that is usually a joke i think) And some sephardim who think they have some kind of perfect judaism, and they are the real jews, and that jews from europe are not.   
But for the most part, relations are fine, there is marriage between them.  Infact, Rav Binyamin Kahane ztl hyd married a sephardi girl - Talia.  One needn`t look far.. And my sephardi friend`s sister married an ashkenazi.. It is very common. The ashkenazi led the service the sephardi way, ashkenazim came to the shul, it was very nice.
 
"Misnagdim" often look at Chassidim as following a different religion, but we don`t have such problems from it. As long as reform are around, the orthodox stick together!

Regarding pronounciation. 

Can Rabbi Bar Hayyim prove beyond doubt that his pronounciation is correct and others wrong. Or is it only a likelyhood thing?

Does he think he is pronouncing it exactly like Rav Saadya Gaon ? And how do we know that Rav Saadya Gaon`s tradition of pronounciation is better than the yemenites?

 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

qq is right, bad division does not come from the Torah, but because of the secular entity. Having and maintaining different Minhagim is like having a river (the Torah) with different streams (Askenazi, Sefardi, Yeminite, etc.). Thier were allways differeces between the tribes and also every family. Judaism is not communism where everybody has the same responsibility and way of doing. For example in the Temple the Kohanim have their job's, the Leviim theirs and the Israelites (regular Jews) their own. Everything should remain the way it is as long as it is in the confines of Torah. Making these Mahloket right now would only be counter productive becuase each group (rightfully so) will say that their tradition should be followed.

[q_q_]

qq is right, bad division does not come from the Torah, but because of the secular entity. Having and maintaining different Minhagim is like having a river (the Torah) with different streams (Askenazi, Sefaradi, Yeminite, etc.). Thier were allways differeces between the tribes and also every family. Judaism is not communism where everybody has the same responsibility and way of doing. For example in the Temple the Kohanim have their job's, the Leviim theirs and the Israelites (regular Jews) their own. Everything should remain the way it is as long as it is in the confines of Torah. Making these Mahloket right now would only be counter productive becuase each group (rightfully so) will say that their tradition should be followed.

I am not saying that all streams of orthodoxy are equally correct, just that it`s not the main problem, and we really do not have the tradition in perfect form as it was at sinai, or even as it was in talmudic times.  And if people took this idea seriously, then there would be more Rabbi David Bar Hayyims, and each would come up with his own idea of what is closest to the original.

[judeanoncapta]

Actually I heard from Rav Zamir Cohen that the Yeminite Pronounciation is the most correct one, and specifically the Jimmel. (it was mentioned in one of his lectures, hes a big Rabbi In israel who is actually launching T.V. broadcast of lectures to Israel T.V. sets.)

Well, Rav Saadia Gaon says specifically that there is no J sound in Hebrew so I would trust him over Rabbi Zamir Cohen.

[judeanoncapta]

Thanks for the plug,

are you rabbi bar hayyim?   ;-)

Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.

And who cares how old a minhag is?

When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.

different minhagim are not causing the disunity that causes problems today.  The problem in israel is between Jews and anti-jews.

Sefaradim and Ashkenazim get on fine for the most part. Apart from some ashkenazim that sort of see Sefaradim as arabs!(though that is usually a joke i think) And some Sefaradim who think they have some kind of perfect judaism, and they are the real jews, and that jews from europe are not.   
But for the most part, relations are fine, there is marriage between them.  Infact, Rav Binyamin Kahane ztl hyd married a Sefaradi girl - Talia.  One needn`t look far.. And my Sefaradi friend`s sister married an ashkenazi.. It is very common. The ashkenazi led the service the Sefaradi way, ashkenazim came to the shul, it was very nice.
 
"Misnagdim" often look at Chassidim as following a different religion, but we don`t have such problems from it. As long as reform are around, the orthodox stick together!

Regarding pronounciation. 

Can Rabbi Bar Hayyim prove beyond doubt that his pronounciation is correct and others wrong. Or is it only a likelyhood thing?

Does he think he is pronouncing it exactly like Rav Saadya Gaon ? And how do we know that Rav Saadya Gaon`s tradition of pronounciation is better than the yemenites?

 

First of all, you are in a dream world. There is fierce hatred on both sides. I have met alot of Ashkenazim who despise Sefaradim and plenty of Sefaradim who hate Ashkenazim. They do not get along fine together. Every single city has both an ashkenazic and sephardic beth din, in direct contradiction of what the Torah states. That in and of itself is a sign of complete disunity.

And no need to put intermarriage between Ashkenazi and Sefaradi as some sort of sign of goodwill. I am married to a sefardic girl. I wouldn't have it any other way. But that is no proof of unity.

There is deep disuinity in the Jewish people as a result of the Galuth. We need to wipe the Galuth off of us and we can start off by changing minhagim that are only in existence because of the Galuth.

Ashkenazi and Sefaradi are NOT different tribes they are different place where we were exiled to because of our sins.

That is NOT SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tzvi, that is not something that a Yehudhi should say he hopes never goes away.

Tzvi, when you say that you hope your identity as a Bukharian never goes away, that means that you hope the Galuth never goes away.

What a terrible thing to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.

Yes, sir.

Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.

[OdKahaneChai]

No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one.  Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefardi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim.  One should follow what his fathers followed.

[q_q_]

And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.

Yes, sir.

Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.

for a start..

I heard that every letter is meant to be distinct.

According to Rabbi Bar Hayyim,
Regarding the BGDKFT letters (the 6 letters with hard and soft pronounciations. bet,gimel,daled,kaf,peh,taf)
What is the difference between  Taf without a dot, and Daled without a dot. I heard that they are both meant to be "th" like "the" or "seth".

And if it is not Gimmel and Jimmel, then what is a gimmel without a dot pronounced like?
 

[judeanoncapta]

No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one.  Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefaradi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim.  One should follow what his fathers followed.

That is completely incorrect.

None of the pronounciations are based on the words of ANY posqim.

And one should NOT follow an incorrect custom or pronunciation simply because his father did so.

[judeanoncapta]

And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.

Yes, sir.

Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.

for a start..

I heard that every letter is meant to be distinct.

According to Rabbi Bar Hayyim,
Regarding the BGDKFT letters (the 6 letters with hard and soft pronounciations. bet,gimel,daled,kaf,peh,taf)
What is the difference between  Taf without a dot, and Daled without a dot. I heard that they are both meant to be "th" like "the" or "seth".

And if it is not Gimmel and Jimmel, then what is a gimmel without a dot pronounced like?
 

The letter Taf that you refer to should actually be pronounced Taw and without a dot it should pronounced "TH" like BaTH.

The Letter Daled should be pronounced Daleth and without a dot, it should be pronounced "TH" as in weaTHer or GaTHer.

And a Gimmel without a dot is pronounced gh. There is no sound in english to use for comparison but the closest sound is a French "R". Or somewhere between a French "R" and a KH sound.

[judeanoncapta]

judeanoncapta, I am very interested in what you said about the proper pronunciation of Hebrew. Are there any books or tools that you suggest I use?

Not that I have found.

I learned it from from my Rav, Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim.
He taught me.

But I can make a video for you teaching the right pronunciation if you like. I have been thinking about doing one for a long time.

[Hail Columbia]

And a Gimmel without a dot is pronounced gh. There is no sound in english to use for comparison but the closest sound is a French "R". Or somewhere between a French "R" and a KH sound.

As in the Greek letter gamma, and as in the Dutch letter G?

[shimon]

No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one.  Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefaradi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim.  One should follow what his fathers followed.

is this a joke i am ashkenaz but i know there are many flaws in our hebrew. such as ashkenazim say o as oy as in gemarah some ashkenazim say gemoyrah. and there more and how come ashkenziam say gut shabbos that is not even close to hebrew its shabot shalom

[q_q_]

No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one.  Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefaradi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim.  One should follow what his fathers followed.

is this a joke i am ashkenaz but i know there are many flaws in our hebrew. such as ashkenazim say o as oy as in gemarah some ashkenazim say gemoyrah. and there more and how come ashkenziam say gut shabbos that is not even close to hebrew its shabot shalom

well, Gut is obviously Yiddish. The word itself is yiddish

You have really got totally confused

It is not even a hebrew word pronounced in yiddish . That is plain yiddish.

there are other examples.. Of hebrew words spoken in Yiddish. Yaakuv is yiddish.  SuhCus is yiddish. Correct ashkenazi hebrew, there is no uh there, in either of the words. it should be SueCose, and YaaKove.  Ask any lainer. The cholem sound has variant traditions though - depending on place in europe the ashkenazim were from, .. Ai,Oy,ow

But don`t go saying ashkenazy hebrew is so wrong, andas if sephardi is right. That is just false.  I mentioned about the taf.  And I am sure sephardim have variations too.. Not just yemenites and the rest.

[judeanoncapta]

No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.

But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?

Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?

And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."

That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.

That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.

[q_q_]

No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.

I don`t know to whome you are referring your statement to. 

But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?

Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?

And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."

That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.

That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.

it is difficult enough to switch from the Ivrit/modern hebrew/secular zionist  pronounciation taught in modern orthodox schools and many shuls. Into our father`s ashkenazi or sephardi pronounciation. 

But to change to a pronounciation that only Rabbi Bar Hayyim and his students know, that is just unfeasible.  And if he is so sure, then he should write an article that proves it beyond any doubt. Proving not just that neither ashkenazi nor sephardi can be right. But proving that his pronounciation is right.   And then that can be put to expert rabbis with different positions, and we can see the arguments against. And then we can decide what is correct.

[jdl4ever]

It is irrelevant if the Hebrew letters sound exactly like they did 1000 years ago since regional variations are considered acceptable ever since the Biblical Era.  I remember in Shoftim it says that a certain tribe pronounced the Shin as a Sin.

[q_q_]

It is irrelevant if the Hebrew letters sound exactly like they did 1000 years ago since regional variations are considered acceptable ever since the Biblical Era.  I remember in Shoftim it says that a certain tribe pronounced the Shin as a Sin.

I am not sure where it is there, but

I heard it as they *couldn`t* pronounce it. So they pronounced it as sin. It was a mistake to do so!


http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=2091 <-- excuse the website!
in this portion the word shever meaning rations or food is used several times. Torah teaches that one of the southern tribes of Israel, Ephraim, could not pronounce the "sh" sound and always pronounced it as an "s." The word shever then became sever which means hope. The midrash explains that not only was there food in Egypt, but hope as well. When is food like hope? Have you and your family ever participated in feeding the hungry? If you have, did it feel like you were spreading hope? (Genesis Rabbah 91.1)
--

Furthermore, modern hebrew pronounciation is man made. Don`t put that on the same level as our traditions.