One Thing Chaim Said About Animals . . .

[Ari]

that I'm not quite sure I agree with is that they don't have souls.  I'm pretty sure I heard Chaim say on an "Ask JTF" show a while back that only people have souls and can tell the difference between right and wrong.  I pretty much always agree with Chaim, but on this point wouldn't it mean that animals are pretty much completely oblivious creatures that just live life to satisfy only the most basic needs (food, reproduction, etc.).  I'm not saying they can tell the difference between morality the same way humans do, but on some level I would hope that animals do know right from wrong.  Isn't this seen in the way many animals care for their young.  What do you guys think of this?

[yeshuadisciple]

The only thing I can come up with is this ambiguous passage in Ecclesiastes 3:21:

Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes is a hard book to put into context since it's from the point of view of living a hedonistic and materialistic lifestyle.  I don't think the scriptures really comment that much on it, since it's not important to the narrative of man's redemption.  I do think though that it's not in God's nature to annihilate life that he has created; that would almost be like undoing a mistake and God does not make mistakes.   Animals are not moral free agents but I do believe they have a soul.  That's my 2 cents worth anyway.   

[newman]

The only thing I can come up with is this ambiguous passage in Ecclesiastes 3:21:

Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes is a hard book to put into context since it's from the point of view of living a hedonistic and materialistic lifestyle.  I don't think the scriptures really comment that much on it, since it's not important to the narrative of man's redemption.  I do think though that it's not in G-d's nature to annihilate life that he has created; that would almost be like undoing a mistake and G-d does not make mistakes.   Animals are not moral free agents but I do believe they have a soul.  That's my 2 cents worth anyway.   

I'm with you on that one.

Anybody who has a dog, cat or works with killer whales KNOWS animals have a soul. Maybe not the same level as ours, but a soul of some sort.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I'm with you on that one.

Anybody who has a dog, cat or works with killer whales KNOWS animals have a soul. Maybe not the same level as ours, but a soul of some sort.

I am inclined to agree with you. I don't know for sure but if a creature was made in G-d's image and said to be good, it's hard to see why this isn't possible.

[newman]

I'm with you on that one.

Anybody who has a dog, cat or works with killer whales KNOWS animals have a soul. Maybe not the same level as ours, but a soul of some sort.

I am inclined to agree with you. I don't know for sure but if a creature was made in G-d's image and said to be good, it's hard to see why this isn't possible.

I'm not referring to jelly fish or lizards.

But the love and concern that cats & dogs show us indicates a soul. I've heard of dogs saving the lives of complete strangers. Cats have saved whole families from house fires by waking them up when the cat could have just run. Even Killer whales who could smash small boats to pieces have NEVER harmed a human in all recorded history. In Twofold Bay, NSW they used to save whalers from sharks! Wild dolphins in Monkey Meyer regularly beach on the sand bar and take great delite in communing with humans. There is something in them more than blind instinct.

[yeshuadisciple]

I'm with you on that one.

Anybody who has a dog, cat or works with killer whales KNOWS animals have a soul. Maybe not the same level as ours, but a soul of some sort.

I am inclined to agree with you. I don't know for sure but if a creature was made in G-d's image and said to be good, it's hard to see why this isn't possible.

I'm not referring to jelly fish or lizards.

But the love and concern that cats & dogs show us indicates a soul. I've heard of dogs saving the lives of complete strangers. Cats have saved whole families from house fires by waking them up when the cat could have just run. Even Killer whales who could smash small boats to pieces have NEVER harmed a human in all recorded history. In Twofold Bay, NSW they used to save whalers from sharks! Wild dolphins in Monkey Meyer regularly beach on the sand bar and take great delite in communing with humans. There is something in them more than blind instinct.

True, as far as them not attacking humans in general, I chalk it up to God's word to Noah that the fear and dread of man would be upon animals.  Then I think of the Story of Balaam the prophet for hire riding his donkey towards the Israelites to curse them.  The donkey would not go through the narrow pass because he saw an Angel standing there with his sword drawn ready to slay Balaam.  The donkey had more sense than a man, not to mention God opened his mouth and he rebuked Balaam and then Balaams eyes were opened; his donkey saved his life.   I think animals  understand a lot more than we give them credit for, and for all our intellect we can be pretty stupid about spiritual things and pretty blind.   

[Iron Greek]

They have a brain and a spirit also instincts and intelligence
they dont have a soul

[Sarah]

Yes, they have naturally instincts that substitute for their less intelligent minds.

How about thinking? Can animals think about things or do they simply act.

[newman]

Yes, they have naturally instincts that substitute for their less intelligent minds.

How about thinking? Can animals think about things or do they simply act.

Cats think and plot like humans. That I can guarantee you.

[Kiwi]

I believe all living creatures have a soul. And we as humans are protectors of these creatures.

[Rubystars]

I believe anything that is alive and has ways to perceive the world around it has a soul. Some lizards such as bearded dragons and iguanas certainly display individual personalities, so don't be so quick to dismiss lizards.

Animals are lucky in a way, they only have to follow their natural instincts, and deal with surviving and producing young, whereas we humans have to deal with surviving and have the moral burdens and responsibilities that come with being human.

If a lion kills a three year old human child and eats them, then the lion has not committed a sin and is not evil. It is no different to the lion that it killed a human child or a baby gazelle. If a human were to do such a thing, the terrible moral burden of the murder would demand the death penalty or at the very least, long incarceration.

[Kiwi]

Ruby you reminded me of something with Loins.

A Zulu hunter once told my mother, when a Lioness hunts, and yes its the female Loin that hunts for the pride for those who don't know.

You have a window when you can go up to her and take some of the meat from her pray. She will allow it once, because they say the soul of the Lion is their family members long ago.

This is apart of their passage of rights to adulthood.

If animals were souless beings how could this happen? An unarmed human V's a Lioness nearly 4 times their weight.

[Boeregeneraal]

the lions are amused at these silly monkeys doing what they do best...steal 

[newman]

Ruby you reminded me of something with Loins.

A Zulu hunter once told my mother, when a Lioness hunts, and yes its the female Loin that hunts for the pride for those who don't know.

You have a window when you can go up to her and take some of the meat from her pray. She will allow it once, because they say the soul of the Lion is their family members long ago.

This is apart of their passage of rights to adulthood.

If animals were souless beings how could this happen? An unarmed human V's a Lioness nearly 4 times their weight.

Good grief!

Even the lions have to give the blacks welfare!

[Shlomo]

In Judaism, all living creatures have souls. There are plant, animal, and human souls.

1. All plants have a plant soul.
2. All animals have a plant and animal soul.
3. All humans have a plant (i.e. the living chemical process and cell growth), animal (i.e. our instincts and animal behavior), and human soul (i.e. the intellect to understand we exist and can make choices).

The animal soul is just as distant from the plant as the human is from the animal. The human soul is the soul that would exist in the World to Come. Most sin comes from the struggle between the animal and human soul.

When an animal makes a decision, it is based completely on how it feels. As humans, we take information on how we feel and then process it through another layer of logic (through the human soul) and decide if it is right or wrong (at least some do).

This may seem quite foreign or strange to Christians but has been a part of Judaism since the beginning. So most of you are correct.

[Kiwi]

Good grief!

Even the lions have to give the blacks welfare!

But unlike us the loins only allow one off payments 

[Kiwi]

the lions are amused at these silly monkeys doing what they do best...steal 

You would of seen the Zulu's in SA no?

Its funny as mum get older she can remember even how to speak it.

[Boeregeneraal]

In Judaism, all living creatures have souls. There are plant, animal, and human souls.

1. All plants have a plant soul.
2. All animals have a plant and animal soul.
3. All humans have a plant (i.e. the living chemical process and cell growth), animal (i.e. our instincts and animal behavior), and human soul (i.e. the intellect to understand we exist and can make choices).

The animal soul is just as distant from the plant as the human is from the animal. The human soul is the soul that would exist in the World to Come. Most sin comes from the struggle between the animal and human soul.

When an animal makes a decision, it is based completely on how it feels. As humans, we take information on how we feel and then process it through another layer of logic (through the human soul) and decide if it is right or wrong (at least some do).

This may seem quite foreign or strange to Christians but has been a part of Judaism since the beginning. So most of you are correct.

wow! That's most interesting!
Is there perhaps reference to this in the Torah?

[Ambiorix]

Ruby you reminded me of something with Loins.

A Zulu hunter once told my mother, when a Lioness hunts, and yes its the female Loin that hunts for the pride for those who don't know.

You have a window when you can go up to her and take some of the meat from her pray. She will allow it once, because they say the soul of the Lion is their family members long ago.

This is apart of their passage of rights to adulthood.

If animals were souless beings how could this happen? An unarmed human V's a Lioness nearly 4 times their weight.

Good grief!

Even the lions have to give the blacks welfare!

 

[JTFFan]

Ruby you reminded me of something with Loins.

A Zulu hunter once told my mother, when a Lioness hunts, and yes its the female Loin that hunts for the pride for those who don't know.

You have a window when you can go up to her and take some of the meat from her pray. She will allow it once, because they say the soul of the Lion is their family members long ago.

This is apart of their passage of rights to adulthood.

If animals were souless beings how could this happen? An unarmed human V's a Lioness nearly 4 times their weight.

Good grief!

Even the lions have to give the blacks welfare!

 

lol

[mord]

  They have a yom kippur for animals

[Ari]

This has turned into a very interesting topic.  I always thought Judaism preached that all living things have souls, but I'm certain Chaim, who knows a ton more about Judaism than I do, has mentioned a number of times on the "Ask JTF" show that indeed they do not.  Oh well, let the debate continue. 

[Shlomo]

Well animals do not have human souls, obviously. I think this is what Chaim is talking about. The concept of soul is really deep and complex and isn't what most think it is.

[Dr. Dan]

They have a yom kippur for animals

Do they fast?

[Kiwi]

They have a yom kippur for animals

Do they fast?

I think some have no choice in that.