I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF

[takebackourtemple]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

[OdKahaneChai]

I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story

You've obviously never heard of Israeli politics.  How do you think the leftists blackmail people?  They just threaten to have a woman (usually a former employee) come out with a story - and even if they can't prove a damn thing, it can still ruin the guy's career.   Trust me, when Chaim IY"H makes it to Israel and is running for (or already is in) Knesset, there will be at least one woman who'll come out and say he sexually harassed and/or raped her.

[newman]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You can bet the Chaim Fan, tuchas licker, wouldn't want his assssssssssss fried for a false rape charge and conviction.  He's ok with it for other guys. hahahaha

Strong words for a baby-butcher. 

[OdKahaneChai]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Looks like I'm the only person who agrees with Chaim then--so be it. I think rape is a worse crime than murder, myself. I would be willing to bet good money that the number of men in prison right now on false rape charges in America can be counted on half of one hand, if it's that high. It's hard enough to get a conviction for real rape when the suspect's semen is present and woman's vagina is obviously torn and she is bloody and bruised--it's vastly more common for slimeball attorneys to convince juries that the poor victim "wanted it".

As for all the guys here who think rape is no big deal and is being overly punished--I invite them to spend the night with Bubba in jail.  

[newman]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Newman, I understand your POV, but I seriously doubt aborting a rape-baby will help a rape victim feel anything more than a very fleeting relief. The odds are she will regret this later in a huge way.

I have yet to meet ONE proponent of abortion as a means to help rape victims who believes rapists should be executed or thrown in prison forever. Not ONE.

[OdKahaneChai]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

[newman]

Newman, I understand your POV, but I seriously doubt aborting a rape-baby will help a rape victim feel anything more than a very fleeting relief. The odds are she will regret this later in a huge way.

I have yet to meet ONE proponent of abortion as a means to help rape victims who believes rapists should be executed or thrown in prison forever. Not ONE.

I know heaps.

I've seen anti-abortion activists shouting abuse at a 14 year old girl (who was raped) outside a clinic. They're scum.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

Amen

[newman]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.

[OdKahaneChai]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.

When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.

How can a pregnancy make someone suicidal? That sounds like the typical tripe baby-butcher advocates invent to scare us into supporting infanticide.

[newman]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.

When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?

Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?

[OdKahaneChai]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.

When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?

Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?

How is she risking her life?  Unless the baby itself is going to kill her, abortion is completely out of the question.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?

Newman, I don't want to diss you, but these arguments are rather silly. I would expect this on a feminazi forum, not from someone as hardcore-right as I know you are. I really think you should spend less time listening to black- and Muslim-worshipping feminazis.

The only way to heal the trauma of rape for these poor victims will be when society begins hanging these bastards from their nuts.

[newman]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.

When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?

Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?

How is she risking her life?  Unless the baby itself is going to kill her, abortion is completely out of the question.

Women die in childbirth all the time. It might be one in 1,000 but it's still a risk. Why should a rape victim endure that risk? And you still have not addressed the question of phsycological trauma or possibility of suicide.

Secondly, you assume that banning abortion will end abortion. It won't. They'll go to Canada or Mexico or a backyard operator if they're determined to get one.

[Daniel]

I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF. 

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

2)I don't agree for putting a man to death for rape, unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it happened!  Chaim is a little too quick to pull the switch on the guy. I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story

3) I have some other large Philosophical issues where  I totally disagree with Chaim's belief system, or torah, but I dont want to go into it here.

Putting all these things aside, I would throw my vote in for Chaim.

I know the Jews would be better off if Chaim was Prime Minister of Israel.  I do have some serious reservations, however, I think I could put them aside.

You and I think a lot alike, along with Merkava.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Newman, by this logic every single woman should abort because pregnancy might end in death. I myself DO believe in overpopulation and am not terribly fond of pregnancy, but this is just way too big of a stretch.

As to the second point, SOME women will seek illegal abortions. I don't think most people will go through the trouble.

[newman]

Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?

Newman, I don't want to diss you, but these arguments are rather silly. I would expect this on a feminazi forum, not from someone as hardcore-right as I know you are. I really think you should spend less time listening to black- and Muslim-worshipping feminazis.

The only way to heal the trauma of rape for these poor victims will be when society begins hanging these bastards from their nuts.

Until such time as you graduate as a phsycologist, you're not in a position to say.

I didn't say this would be the case 100% of the time. Just in SOME cases.

Answer this:

If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

[newman]

Newman, by this logic every single woman should abort because pregnancy might end in death. I myself DO believe in overpopulation and am not terribly fond of pregnancy, but this is just way too big of a stretch.

As to the second point, SOME women will seek illegal abortions. I don't think most people will go through the trouble.

How do you know. When abortions were illegal there were no records kept of abortions. Women also died from backyard or self attempts.

Irish girls go to other EU countries for them all the time.

[Lisa]

As I've gotten older, I've become more pro-life. 

But if I was ever raped, I would not want that rapists child growing inside me.  Now I've read of cases where surgery has been done on fetuses.  So I would think and hope that in the future, doctors could remove the fetus from the woman (without killing it) and have it gestate someplace else.  That would make everyone happy if such a thing could ever happen.

[OdKahaneChai]

1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion.  I believe in woman's right to choose.

   The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
   Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.

If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.

I don't think so...

A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief?

Correct.  Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.

According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.

When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?

Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?

How is she risking her life?  Unless the baby itself is going to kill her, abortion is completely out of the question.

Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?

With that logic, Women should never have children.  It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?

And you still have not addressed the question of phsycological trauma or possibility of suicide.

Like I said, unless the baby itself is going to kill her...

Secondly, you assume that banning abortion will end abortion. It won't. They'll go to Canada or Mexico or a backyard operator if they're determined to get one.

If they're that intent on murdering an innocent child - then obviously we can't do anything about it.  But it should certainly not (CV"S) be legal.

[Dr. Dan]

I think in this country, abortion rules shoudl not be up to politicians, but between the mother and maybe the father and the medical doctor. However, the medical doctor has to be bound by proper eithics...and maybe throwing in a spiritual leader in the mix may help in helping the mother make the proper and most ethical decision.