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Author Topic: Why did God let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?  (Read 3227 times)

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Offline WestCoastJTF

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Why did God let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« on: November 29, 2007, 11:31:48 PM »
Did we already have this Ask JTF question?

I was wondering about Chaim's opinion on why God allowed the holocaust happened.  (I realize God Himself didn't do it, the Nazis did, but still, it happened to the Jewish people with whom God has an eternal covenant).
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Offline ItalianZionist

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 12:20:07 AM »
Quote from: WestCoastJTF on November 29, 2007, 11:31:48 PM
Did we already have this Ask JTF question?

I was wondering about Chaim's opinion on why G-d allowed the holocaust happened.  (I realize G-d Himself didn't do it, the Nazis did, but still, it happened to the Jewish people with whom G-d has an eternal covenant).
not sure, but I think that chaim might say that the jews did not keep their covenant with God...Also evil people have free will and we don't know all the ways of God yet..
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 01:28:50 AM »
I heard that rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu said that the Holocaust was Gog uMagug.
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Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
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Offline White Israelite

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 01:33:01 AM »
The holocaust cannot be changed, yes it is a sad event but we must realize a holocaust can happen to anyone for any reason. Many people were killed. 13 million slaughtered (6 million Jews), We must do what we can to prevent another one, physically.
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Offline Trumpeldor

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 01:35:38 AM »
There are many wonderful books on this topic.
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Offline yeshuadisciple

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 02:32:08 AM »
Quote from: ItalianZionist on November 30, 2007, 12:20:07 AM
Quote from: WestCoastJTF on November 29, 2007, 11:31:48 PM
Did we already have this Ask JTF question?

I was wondering about Chaim's opinion on why G-d allowed the holocaust happened.  (I realize G-d Himself didn't do it, the Nazis did, but still, it happened to the Jewish people with whom G-d has an eternal covenant).
not sure, but I think that chaim might say that the jews did not keep their covenant with G-d...Also evil people have free will and we don't know all the ways of G-d yet..

I agree with that and also, Genesis 50:20

Quote
As for you,  you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Joseph's brother's intended to kill him and eventually sold him into slavery, but God ultimately used it to rescue him and his family from the coming famine.  Although evil men exercised their free will, I believe God used the holocaust to restore the nation of Israel.  The only reason the UN passed the resolution on the formation of Israel was the collective guilt the nations felt over the holocaust.   That resolution would never pass today, nor at any other time in history. 
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And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 12:9-10

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.  "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.  "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.  "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
Daniel 9:24-27




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Offline Husar

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 03:07:38 AM »
I asked myself this question SO MANY TIMES...

 :-[
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"HUSSARORUM ALIAS RACOW"
"Hussar alias Rac (Serb)"

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_hussars.html
"Hussar or gussar originally meant "a robber" in Serbian. These horsemen served not only under the Polish and Lithuanian colors but also under those of the Holy Roman Emperor;"
http://www.husaria.jest.pl/rys.html
"Bardzo prawdopodobne, że początek swego istnienia husarze zawdzięczają Serbom. Po klęsce na Kosowym Polu w roku 1389 wszędzie szukali okazji do pomsty na Turkach.
Jan Długosz zapisał pod rokiem 1463, że w bitwie nad Sawą bił się Cohors Raczanorum (oddział Raców - Serbów). Po śmierci króla Macieja Korwina Serbowie udali się do Polski, aby kontynuować walkę z Turkami po usarsku."
http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/WingedHussar.html
"The hussar concept began in Serbia, near the end of the 14th century. In the 16th century, painted wings or winged claws began to appear on cavalry shields. Wings were originally attached to the saddle and later to the back. In 1645, Col. Szczodrowski was said to have used ostrich wings.
In 1500, the Polish Treasury books make reference to hussars. Early on, they were foreign mercenaries, and were called Racowie from "Rascia" a word meaning "of Serbia." They came from the Serbian state of Ras."
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armiesofthefanatici/DarrenBuxbaum/LaterSerbs/
"Serbian Gussars"
http://ac.bondurand.com/liste332.htm
"Les serbes avaient reconnu la nécessité d'une cavalerie légère, (...) ils développèrent leur propre cavalerie légère, les GUSARS ou USARS, d'où sont venus les hussards."
http://www.armae.com/contemporain/144epeesetdagues.htm
"Originaires de Serbie, les hussards furent des cavaliers d'élite, connus surtout en Hongrie puis en France, et imités par la suite partout en Europe."
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/1b772/a9330/
"The area around the present Zorinsk (Ukrainia) belonged to the Serb Hussar Major Vuyich at the end of the 18th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenije_III
" Arsenije III (...) was inaugurating new Serb infantry and hussar regiments that were sent to the ongoing war."
http://www.gatago.com/pl/sci/historia/19850502.html
"Jan Długosz pod rokiem 1463 napisał, że w bitwie nad Sawą, biły się
"Cohors Raczanorum" / Początki husarii w bitwie na Kulikowym Polu
w 1389 r."
--

CcCc

raiseyourfist

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 05:18:29 AM »
To the jews, Chaim commented on the reason was G-d punished them for not living in Israel and so Hashem destroyed 1/3rd of the jewish population...

sounds cruel? well thats G-d covenant with the jewish people for you...

This is why Israel needs to be kept safe from being taken over by the Arabs who are taking over the country little by little... to the jews out there i would say, to be zionistic which now isn't so much a case of now living in Israel (although that would be ideal) , supporting the country as best one can will help the country's plight from being taken over.. that can also include funding the heroic kahanist jews living in Judea Samaria that are in threat from losing their land..

HELP US BECOME A MASS MOVEMENT IS PROBABLY THE BEST SOLUTION AT THIS TIME BECAUSE THE MORE MEMBERS THE BETTER
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Offline Merkava

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 05:44:36 AM »
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!
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Offline JTFFan

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 05:45:28 AM »
Quote from: Merkava on November 30, 2007, 05:44:36 AM
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!

We need to bomb Iran to stop another holocaust! O0
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 05:51:16 AM »
Quote from: JTFFan on November 30, 2007, 05:45:28 AM
Quote from: Merkava on November 30, 2007, 05:44:36 AM
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!

We need to bomb Iran to stop another holocaust! O0
Why to go so far while you have real Nazis right near your border ?
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Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline JTFFan

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 06:09:01 AM »
Quote from: Dexter on November 30, 2007, 05:51:16 AM
Quote from: JTFFan on November 30, 2007, 05:45:28 AM
Quote from: Merkava on November 30, 2007, 05:44:36 AM
When someone says they will kill you - you better beleive them. Holocaust happened and a 2nd one is in the making. WE MUST STOP IRAN NOW !!!

We need to bomb Iran to stop another holocaust! O0
Why to go so far while you have real Nazis right near your border ?

That's also true, it's a very mixed and amalgamated situation with also nazis near the border.
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 06:43:28 AM »
Can't speak for Gd, but I can give you my answer:

So jews love each other more and to wake up Jews to the reality in the world.
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Offline WestCoastJTF

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2007, 01:16:39 AM »
Quote from: Trumpeldor on November 30, 2007, 01:35:38 AM
There are many wonderful books on this topic.

Care to recommend one?
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Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2007, 01:38:02 AM »
Quote from: Dr. Dan on November 30, 2007, 06:43:28 AM
Can't speak for Gd, but I can give you my answer:

So jews love each other more and to wake up Jews to the reality in the world.
Well you do have a point.  My grandfather hinted to me that he thought part of the reason was for what you stated.  He told me a story he witnessed that there was a Jewish boy in his town in Poland who had a Jewish Girlfriend from a poor family in the same town.  They were hanging out together for a while so the girl's mother asked the boy's mother "it isn't right for them to hang out for so long, let them get married" and she responded in anger that she won't let them get married until she gets a dowry.  They had a custom in those days that the girl's family usually gave a sum of money to the boy's family as a wedding present or a dowry.  So the two never got married.  Then the Holocaust happened and they were both killed. 

Then he told me another story about a Misnagad Rabbi who died and his first born was a Chassidish Rabbi who took over the inheritance of a large area of Europe.  His brother was a Misnagad Rabbi who could not make a living since his brother took over the Rabbinical position and no one would take him as a Rabbi so he went to my grandfather's town which was mostly Misnagid and he was well liked by the town and became the Rabbi of this small town.  Well, his brother was jealous because he was supposed to control every town in that large area of Europe and didn't care if his own brother starved.  He got into a feud with his brother and the Chassidsh one informed on my grandfather's father to the Polish gov't and put him in jail because he was the Gabbi of the Shul and said "may the Rabbi get up to the Torah" to the Misnagad Rabbi.  The Polish Judge heard the case and said it was a religious matter and he didn't want to get involved so he released my great grandfather.  This generated a lot of hatred between the Chassidim and the Misnagdim in this town and they bitterly hated each other.  Well, in the Holocaust the Misnagad Rabbi Zs'l was killed and the Chassidish one YSV lived.  After the Holocaust this hatred abated and my grandfather married a Chassidish women from the same town, something they never would have done before the Holocaust.  You can't explain these things.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 01:42:00 AM by jdl4ever »
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2007, 02:14:10 AM »
I mean...Jews in general woudln't be as much who we are today if it hadn't been for the Shoah...but still...we have a lot of work to do. I think the bottom line is that the what we consider self hating today isn't half as bad of what might have existed in Europe before the Shoah...what do you guys think?
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Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2007, 02:21:22 AM »
Self hate today is the worst it has ever been and hatred between Jews is also greater.  Also Torah wisdom has declined as well to it's lowest level in Jewish History I think.
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"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2007, 02:25:59 AM »
Quote from: jdl4ever on December 02, 2007, 02:21:22 AM
Self hate today is the worst it has ever been and hatred between Jews is also greater.  Also Torah wisdom has declined as well to it's lowest level in Jewish History I think.


I mean it's not like I"m 80 and lived during the time of the Shoah...but i assume that self-hatred isn't as bad it was back then.  The problem with most Jews today is that we are TOO NICE...  I think that if Arabs started attacking Jews, immediately left wing and right winged Jews would fight back and stand together to stay alive.  But when a threat isn't that eminent, Jews will be at each others' throats.

albiet..there are some nuts out there that will side with Arabs even at a time of war...but much much much less than back then.. Back then, Jews were so blind that 6 million allowed for themselves to be murdered. Today, maybe, GD forbid, 500,000 are willing to be murdered.
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If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Why did G-d let the Holocaust (Shoah) happen?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2007, 02:31:48 AM »
Self hatred and being pacifists are two separate things.  Today Jews are not as pacifist like as they were in Europe since they learned from the Shoah.  However, Jews today are more self hating and have less pride in themselves then they did in Europe and Torah wisdom is also very low today.  In Europe, Jews would generally only go to Yeshiva until the age of 14 and after that they would become an apprentice and get a job.  Even so the education method was so incredible that these people know more Torah and more about Judaism than many Jews who learn in Yeshiva for 20 years today.  I have over 100 years of wisdom on my shoulders since I absorbed the Tradition and stories from my grandparents. 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 02:34:03 AM by jdl4ever »
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"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD
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