Author Topic: The New Girl Order  (Read 7659 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gruzinit

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 425
The New Girl Order
« on: December 06, 2007, 01:05:29 AM »
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_4_new_girl_order.html

Wonderful article on the effects of female narcissism and how its creating a demographic dead end. Unfortunately, this new girl order will eventually become the old spinsters club...


The New Girl Order
The Carrie Bradshaw lifestyle is showing up in unexpected places, with unintended consequences.

Kay S. Hymowitz

After my Lot Airlines flight from New York touched down at Warsaw’s Frédéric Chopin Airport a few months back, I watched a middle-aged passenger rush to embrace a waiting younger woman—clearly her daughter. Like many people on the plane, the older woman wore drab clothing and had the short, square physique of someone familiar with too many potatoes and too much manual labor. Her Poland-based daughter, by contrast, was tall and smartly outfitted in pointy-toed pumps, slim-cut jeans, a cropped jacket revealing a toned midriff (Yoga? Pilates? Or just a low-carb diet?), and a large, brass-studded leather bag, into which she dropped a silver cell phone.

Yes: Carrie Bradshaw is alive and well and living in Warsaw. Well, not just Warsaw. Conceived and raised in the United States, Carrie may still see New York as a spiritual home. But today you can find her in cities across Europe, Asia, and North America. Seek out the trendy shoe stores in Shanghai, Berlin, Singapore, Seoul, and Dublin, and you’ll see crowds of single young females (SYFs) in their twenties and thirties, who spend their hours working their abs and their careers, sipping cocktails, dancing at clubs, and (yawn) talking about relationships. Sex and the City has gone global; the SYF world is now flat.

Is this just the latest example of American cultural imperialism? Or is it the triumph of planetary feminism? Neither. The globalization of the SYF reflects a series of stunning demographic and economic shifts that are pointing much of the world—with important exceptions, including Africa and most of the Middle East—toward a New Girl Order. It’s a man’s world, James Brown always reminded us. But if these trends continue, not so much.

Three demographic facts are at the core of the New Girl Order. First, women—especially, but not only, in the developed world—are getting married and having kids considerably later than ever before. According to the UN’s World Fertility Report, the worldwide median age of marriage for women is up two years, from 21.2 in the 1970s to 23.2 today. In the developed countries, the rise has been considerably steeper—from 22.0 to 26.1.

Demographers get really excited about shifts like these, but in case you don’t get what the big deal is, consider: in 1960, 70 percent of American 25-year-old women were married with children; in 2000, only 25 percent of them were. In 1970, just 7.4 percent of all American 30- to 34-year-olds were unmarried; today, the number is 22 percent. That change took about a generation to unfold, but in Asia and Eastern Europe the transformation has been much more abrupt. In today’s Hungary, for instance, 30 percent of women in their early thirties are single, compared with 6 percent of their mothers’ generation at the same age. In South Korea, 40 percent of 30-year-olds are single, compared with 14 percent only 20 years ago.

Nothing-new-under-the-sun skeptics point out, correctly, that marrying at 27 or 28 was once commonplace for women, at least in the United States and parts of northern Europe. The cultural anomaly was the 1950s and 60s, when the average age of marriage for women dipped to 20—probably because of post-Depression and postwar cocooning. But today’s single 27-year-old has gone global—and even in the West, she differs from her late-marrying great-grandma in fundamental ways that bring us to the second piece of the demographic story. Today’s aspiring middle-class women are gearing up to be part of the paid labor market for most of their adult lives; unlike their ancestral singles, they’re looking for careers, not jobs. And that means they need lots of schooling.

In the newly global economy, good jobs go to those with degrees, and all over the world, young people, particularly women, are enrolling in colleges and universities at unprecedented rates. Between 1960 and 2000, the percentages of 20-, 25-, and 30-year-olds enrolled in school more than doubled in the U.S., and enrollment in higher education doubled throughout Europe. And the fairer sex makes up an increasing part of the total. The majority of college students are female in the U.S., the U.K., France, Germany, Norway, and Australia, to name only a few of many places, and the gender gap is quickly narrowing in more traditional countries like China, Japan, and South Korea. In a number of European countries, including Denmark, Finland, and France, over half of all women between 20 and 24 are in school. The number of countries where women constitute the majority of graduate students is also growing rapidly.

That educated women are staying single is unsurprising; degreed women have always been more likely to marry late, if they marry at all. But what has demographers taking notice is the sheer transnational numbers of women postponing marriage while they get diplomas and start careers. In the U.K., close to a third of 30-year-old college-educated women are unmarried; some demographers predict that 30 percent of women with university degrees there will remain forever childless. In Spain—not so long ago a culturally Catholic country where a girl’s family would jealously chaperone her until handing her over to a husband at 21 or so—women now constitute 54 percent of college students, up from 26 percent in 1970, and the average age of first birth has risen to nearly 30, which appears to be a world record.

Adding to the contemporary SYF’s novelty is the third demographic shift: urbanization. American and northern European women in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries might have married at 26, but after a long day in the dairy barn or cotton mill, they didn’t hang out at Studio 54 while looking for Mr. Right (or, as the joke has it, Mr. Right for Now). In the past, women who delayed marriage generally lived with their parents; they also remained part of the family economy, laboring in their parents’ shops or farms, or at the very least, contributing to the family kitty. A lot of today’s bachelorettes, on the other hand, move from their native village or town to Boston or Berlin or Seoul because that’s where the jobs, boys, and bars are—and they spend their earnings on themselves.

By the mid-1990s, in countries as diverse as Canada, France, Hungary, Ireland, Portugal, and Russia, women were out-urbanizing men, who still tended to hang around the home village. When they can afford to, these women live alone or with roommates. The Netherlands, for instance, is flush with public housing, some of it reserved for young students and workers, including lots of women. In the United States, the proportion of unmarried twentysomethings living with their parents has declined steadily over the last 100 years, despite sky-high rents and apartment prices. Even in countries where SYFs can’t afford to move out of their parents’ homes, the anonymity and diversity of city life tend to heighten their autonomy. Belgians, notes University of Maryland professor Jeffrey Jensen Arnett, have coined a term—“hotel families”—to describe the arrangement.

Combine these trends—delayed marriage, expanded higher education and labor-force participation, urbanization—add a global media and some disposable income, and voilà: an international lifestyle is born. One of its defining characteristics is long hours of office work, often in quasi-creative fields like media, fashion, communications, and design—areas in which the number of careers has exploded in the global economy over the past few decades. The lifestyle also means whole new realms of leisure and consumption, often enjoyed with a group of close girlfriends: trendy cafés and bars serving sweetish coffee concoctions and cocktails; fancy boutiques, malls, and emporiums hawking cosmetics, handbags, shoes, and $100-plus buttock-hugging jeans; gyms for toning and male-watching; ski resorts and beach hotels; and, everywhere, the frustrating hunt for a boyfriend and, though it’s an ever more vexing subject, a husband.

The SYF lifestyle first appeared in primitive form in the U.S. during the seventies, after young women started moving into higher education, looking for meaningful work, and delaying marriage. Think of ur-SYF Mary Richards, the pre-Jordache career girl played by Mary Tyler Moore, whose dates dropped her off—that same evening, of course—at her apartment door. By the mid-nineties, such propriety was completely passé. Mary had become the vocationally and sexually assertive Carrie Bradshaw, and cities like New York had magically transformed into the young person’s pleasure palace evoked by the hugely popular TV show Sex and the City. At around the same time, women in Asia and in post-Communist Europe began to join the SYF demographic, too. Not surprisingly, they also loved watching themselves, or at least Hollywood versions of themselves, on television. Friends, Ally McBeal, and Sex and the City became global favorites. In repressive places like Singapore and China, which banned SATC, women passed around pirated DVDs.

By the late 1990s, the SYF lifestyle was fully globalized. Indeed, you might think of SYFs as a sociological Starbucks: no matter how exotic the location, there they are, looking and behaving just like the American prototype. They shop for shoes in Kyoto, purses in Shanghai, jeans in Prague, and lip gloss in Singapore; they sip lattes in Dublin, drink cocktails in Chicago, and read lifestyle magazines in Kraków; they go to wine tastings in Boston, speed-dating events in Amsterdam, yoga classes in Paris, and ski resorts outside Tokyo. “At the fashionable Da Capo Café on bustling Kolonaki Square in downtown Athens, Greek professionals in their 30s and early 40s luxuriate over their iced cappuccinos,” a Newsweek International article began last year. “Their favorite topic of conversation is, of course, relationships: men’s reluctance to commit, women’s independence, and when to have children.” Thirty-seven-year-old Eirini Perpovlov, an administrative assistant at Associated Press, “loves her work and gets her social sustenance from her parea, or close-knit group of like-minded friends.”

Sure sounds similar to this July’s Time story about Vicky, “a purposeful, 29-year-old actuary who . . . loves nothing better than a party. She and her friends meet so regularly for dinner and at bars that she says she never eats at home anymore. As the pictures on her blog attest, they also throw regular theme parties to mark holidays like Halloween and Christmas, and last year took a holiday to Egypt.” At the restaurant where the reporter interviews them, Vicky’s friends gab about snowboarding, iPods, credit-card rates, and a popular resort off the coast of Thailand. Vicky, whose motto is “work hard, play harder,” is not from New York, London, or even Athens; she’s from the SYF delegation in Beijing, China, a country that appears to be racing from rice paddies to sushi bars in less than a generation—at least for a privileged minority.

With no children or parents to support, and with serious financial hardship a bedtime story told by aging grandparents, SYFs have ignited what The Economist calls the “Bridget Jones economy”—named, of course, after the book and movie heroine who is perhaps the most famous SYF of all. Bridget Jonesers, the magazine says, spend their disposable income “on whatever is fashionable, frivolous, and fun,” manufactured by a bevy of new companies that cater to young women. In 2000, Marian Salzman—then the president of the London-based Intelligence Factory, an arm of Young & Rubicam—said that by the 1990s, “women living alone had come to comprise the strongest consumer bloc in much the same way that yuppies did in the 1980s.”

SYFs drive the growth of apparel stores devoted to stylish career wear like Ann Taylor, which now has more than 800 shops in the United States, and the international Zara, with more than 1,000 in 54 countries. They also spend paychecks at the Paris-based Sephora, Europe’s largest retailer of perfumes and cosmetics, which targets younger women in 14 countries, including such formerly sober redoubts as Poland and the Czech Republic. The chain plans to expand to China soon. According to Forbes, the Chinese cosmetics market, largely an urban phenomenon, was up 17 percent in 2006, and experts predict a growth rate of between 15 and 20 percent in upcoming years. Zara already has three stores there.

The power of the SYF’s designer purse is also at work in the entertainment industry. By the mid-1990s, “chick lit,” a contemporary urban version of the Harlequin romance with the SYF as heroine, was topping bestseller lists in England and the United States. Now chick lit has spread all over the world. The books of the Irish writer Marian Keyes, one of the first and most successful chick-litterateurs, appear in 29 languages. The Devil Wears Prada was an international hit as both a book (by Lauren Weisberger) and a movie (starring Meryl Streep). Meantime, the television industry is seeking to satisfy the SYF’s appetite for single heroines with Sex and the City clones like The Marrying Type in South Korea and The Balzac Age in Russia.

Bridget Jonesers are also remaking the travel industry, especially in Asia. A 2005 report from MasterCard finds that women take four out of every ten trips in the Asia-Pacific region—up from one in ten back in the mid-1970s. While American women think about nature, adventure, or culture when choosing their travel destinations, says MasterCard, Asian women look for shopping, resorts, and, most of all, spas. Female travelers have led to what the report calls the “spa-ification of the Asian hotel industry.” That industry is growing at a spectacular rate—200 percent annually.

And now the maturing Bridget Jones economy has begun to feature big-ticket items. In 2003, the Diamond Trading Company introduced the “right-hand ring,” a diamond for women with no marital prospects but longing for a rock. (“Your left hand is your heart; your right hand is your voice,” one ad explains.) In some SYF capitals, women are moving into the real-estate market. Canadian single women are buying homes at twice the rate of single men. The National Association of Realtors reports that in the U.S. last year, single women made up 22 percent of the real-estate market, compared with a paltry 9 percent for single men. The median age for first-time female buyers: 32. The real-estate firm Coldwell Banker is making eyes at these young buyers with a new motto, “Your perfect partner since 1906,” while Lowe’s, the home-renovation giant, is offering classes especially for them. SYFs are also looking for wheels, and manufacturers are designing autos and accessories with them in mind. In Japan, Nissan has introduced the Pino, which has seat covers festooned with stars and a red CD player shaped like a pair of lips. It comes in one of two colors: “milk tea beige” and pink.

Japan presents a striking example of the sudden rise of the New Girl Order outside the U.S. and Western Europe. As recently as the nation’s boom years in the 1980s, the dominant image of the Japanese woman was of the housewife, or sengyoshufu, who doted on her young children, intently prepared older ones for the world economy, and waited on the man of the house after his 16-hour day at the office. She still exists, of course, but about a decade ago she met her nemesis: the Japanese SYF. Between 1994 and 2004, the number of Japanese women between 25 and 29 who were unmarried soared from 40 to 54 percent; even more remarkable was the number of 30- to 34-year-old females who were unmarried, which rocketed from 14 to 27 percent. Because of Tokyo’s expensive real-estate market, a good many of these young single women have shacked up with their parents, leading a prominent sociologist to brand them “parasite singles.” The derogatory term took off, but the girls weren’t disturbed; according to USA Today, many proudly printed up business cards bearing their new title.

The New Girl Order may represent a disruptive transformation for a deeply traditional society, but Japanese women sure seem to be enjoying the single life. Older singles who can afford it have even been buying their own apartments. One of them, 37-year-old Junko Sakai, wrote a best-selling plaint called The Howl of the Loser Dogs, a title that co-opts the term makeinu—“loser”—once commonly used to describe husbandless 30-year-olds. “Society may call us dogs,” she writes, “but we are happy and independent.” Today’s Japanese SYFs are world-class shoppers, and though they must still fight workplace discrimination and have limited career tracks—particularly if they aren’t working for Westernized companies—they’re somehow managing to earn enough yen to keep the country’s many Vuitton, Burberry, and Issey Miyake boutiques buzzing. Not so long ago, Japanese hotels wouldn’t serve women traveling alone, in part because they suspected that the guests might be spinsters intent on hurling themselves off balconies to end their desperate solitude. Today, the losers are happily checking in at Japanese mountain lodges, not to mention Australian spas, Vietnamese hotels, and Hawaiian beach resorts.

And unlike their foreign counterparts in the New Girl Order, Japanese singles don’t seem to be worrying much about finding Mr. Right. A majority of Japanese single women between 25 and 54 say that they’d be just as happy never to marry. Peggy Orenstein, writing in the New York Times Magazine in 2001, noted that Japanese women find American-style sentimentality about marriage puzzling. Yoko Harruka, a television personality and author of a book called I Won’t Get Married—written after she realized that her then-fiancé expected her to quit her career and serve him tea—says that her countrymen propose with lines like, “I want you to cook miso soup for me for the rest of my life.” Japanese SYFs complain that men don’t show affection and expect women to cook dinner obediently while they sit on their duffs reading the paper. Is it any wonder that the women prefer Burberry?

Post-Communist Europe is also going through the shock of the New Girl Order. Under Communist rule, women tended to marry and have kids early. In the late eighties, the mean age of first birth in East Germany, for instance, was 24.7, far lower than the West German average of 28.3. According to Tomáš Sobotka of the Vienna Institute of Demography, young people had plenty of reasons to schedule an early wedding day. Tying the knot was the only way to gain independence from parents, since married couples could get an apartment, while singles could not. Furthermore, access to modern contraception, which the state proved either unable or unwilling to produce at affordable prices, was limited. Marriages frequently began as the result of unplanned pregnancies.

And then the Wall came down. The free market launched shiny new job opportunities, making higher education more valuable than under Communist regimes, which had apportioned jobs and degrees. Suddenly, a young Polish or Hungarian woman might imagine having a career, and some fun at the same time. In cities like Warsaw and Budapest, young adults can find pleasures completely unknown to previous generations of singles. In one respect, Eastern European and Russian SYFs were better equipped than Japanese ones for the new order. The strong single woman, an invisible figure in Japan, has long been a prominent character in the social landscape of Eastern Europe and Russia, a legacy, doubtless, of the Communist-era emphasis on egalitarianism (however inconsistently applied) and the massive male casualties of World War II.

Not that the post-Communist SYF is any happier with the husband material than her Japanese counterpart is. Eastern European gals complain about men overindulged by widowed mothers and unable to adapt to the new economy. According to The Economist, many towns in what used to be East Germany now face Frauenmangel—a lack of women—as SYFs who excelled in school have moved west for jobs, leaving the poorly performing men behind. In some towns, the ratio is just 40 women to 100 men. Women constitute the majority of both high school and college graduates in Poland. Though Russian women haven’t joined the new order to the same extent, they’re also grumbling about the men. In Russian TV’s The Balzac Age, which chronicles the adventures of four single thirtysomething women, Alla, a high-achieving yuppie attorney, calls a handyman for help in her apartment. The two—to their mutual horror—recognize each other as former high school sweethearts, now moving in utterly different social universes.

There’s much to admire in the New Girl Order—and not just the previously hidden cleavage. Consider the lives most likely led by the mothers, grandmothers, great-grandmothers, and so on of the fashionista at the Warsaw airport or of the hard-partying Beijing actuary. Those women reached adulthood, which usually meant 18 or even younger; married guys from their village, or, if they were particularly daring, from the village across the river; and then had kids—end of story, except for maybe some goat milking, rice planting, or, in urban areas, shop tending. The New Girl Order means good-bye to such limitations. It means the possibility of more varied lives, of more expansively nourished aspirations. It also means a richer world. SYFs bring ambition, energy, and innovation to the economy, both local and global; they simultaneously promote and enjoy what author Brink Lindsey calls “the age of abundance.” The SYF, in sum, represents a dramatic advance in personal freedom and wealth.

But as with any momentous social change, the New Girl Order comes with costs—in this case, profound ones. The globalized SYF upends centuries of cultural traditions. However limiting, those traditions shaped how families formed and the next generation grew up. So it makes sense that the SYF is partly to blame for a worldwide drop in fertility rates. To keep a population stable, or at its “replacement level,” women must have an average of at least 2.1 children. Under the New Girl Order, though, women delay marriage and childbearing, which itself tends to reduce the number of kids, and sometimes—because the opportunity costs of children are much higher for educated women—they forgo them altogether. Save Albania, no European country stood at or above replacement levels in 2000. Three-quarters of Europeans now live in countries with fertility rates below 1.5, and even that number is inflated by a disproportionately high fertility rate among Muslim immigrants. Oddly, the most Catholic European countries—Italy, Spain, and Poland—have the lowest fertility rates, under 1.3. Much of Asia looks similar. In Japan, fertility rates are about 1.3. Hong Kong, according to the CIA’s World Factbook, at 0.98 has broken the barrier of one child per woman.

For many, fertility decline seems to be one more reason to celebrate the New Girl Order. Fewer people means fewer carbon footprints, after all, and thus potential environmental relief. But while we’re waiting for the temperature to drop a bit, economies will plunge in ways that will be extremely difficult to manage—and that, ironically, will likely spell the SYF lifestyle’s demise. As Philip Longman explains in his important book The Empty Cradle, dramatic declines in fertility rates equal aging and eventually shriveling populations. Japan now has one of the oldest populations in the world—one-third of its population, demographers predict, will be over 60 within a decade. True, fertility decline often spurs a temporary economic boost, as more women enter the workforce and increase income and spending, as was the case in 1980s Japan. In time, though, those women—and their male peers—will get old and need pensions and more health care.

And who will pay for that? With fewer children, the labor force shrinks, and so do tax receipts. Europe today has 35 pensioners for every 100 workers, Longman points out. By 2050, those 100 will be responsible for 75 pensioners; in Spain and Italy, the ratio of workers to pensioners will be a disastrous one-to-one. Adding to the economic threat, seniors with few or no children are more likely to look to the state for support than are elderly people with more children. The final irony is that the ambitious, hardworking SYF will have created a world where her children, should she have them, will need to work even harder in order to support her in her golden years.

Aging populations present other problems. For one thing, innovation and technological breakthroughs tend to be a young person’s game—think of the young Turks of the information technology revolution. Fewer young workers and higher tax burdens don’t make a good recipe for innovation and growth. Also, having fewer people leads to declining markets, and thus less business investment and formation. Where would you want to expand your cosmetics business: Ireland, where the population continues to renew itself, or Japan, where it is imploding?

And finally, the New Girl Order has given birth to a worrying ambivalence toward domestic life and the men who would help create it. Many analysts argue that today’s women of childbearing age would have more kids if only their countries provided generous benefits for working mothers, as they do in Sweden and France. And it’s true that those two countries have seen fertility rates inch up toward replacement levels in recent years. But in countries newly entering the New Girl Order, what SYFs complain about isn’t so much a gap between work and family life as a chasm between their own aspirations and those of the men who’d be their husbands (remember those Japanese women skeptical of a future cooking miso soup). Adding to the SYF’s alienation from domesticity is another glaring fact usually ignored by demographers: the New Girl Order is fun. Why get married when you can party on?

That raises an interesting question: Why are SYFs in the United States—the Rome of the New Girl Order—still so interested in marriage? By large margins, surveys suggest, American women want to marry and have kids. Indeed, our fertility rates, though lower than replacement level among college-educated women, are still healthier than those in most SYF countries (including Sweden and France). The answer may be that the family has always been essential ballast to the individualism, diversity, mobility, and sheer giddiness of American life. It helps that the U.S., like northwestern Europe, has a long tradition of “companionate marriage”—that is, marriage based not on strict roles but on common interests and mutual affection. Companionate marriage always rested on the assumption of female equality. Yet countries like Japan are joining the new order with no history of companionate relations, and when it comes to adapting to the new order, the cultural cupboard is bare. A number of analysts, including demographer Nicholas Eberstadt, have also argued that it is America’s religiousness that explains our relatively robust fertility, though the Polish fertility decline raises questions about that explanation.

It’s by no means certain that Americans will remain exceptional in this regard. The most recent census data show a “sharp increase,” over just the past six years, in the percentage of Americans in their twenties who have never married. Every year sees more books celebrating the SYF life, boasting titles like Singular Existence and Living Alone and Loving It. And SYFs will increasingly find themselves in a disappointing marriage pool. The New York Times excited considerable discussion this summer with a front-page article announcing that young women working full-time in several cities were now outearning their male counterparts. A historically unprecedented trend like this is bound to have a further impact on relations between the sexes and on marriage and childbearing rates.

Still, for now, women don’t seem too worried about the New Girl Order’s downside. On the contrary. The order marches on, as one domino after another falls to its pleasures and aspirations. Now, the Singapore Times tells us, young women in Vietnam are suddenly putting off marriage because they “want to have some fun”—and fertility rates have plummeted from 3.8 children in 1998 to 2.1 in 2006.

And then there’s India. “The Gen Now bachelorette brigade is in no hurry to tie the knot,” reports the India Tribune. “They’re single, independent, and happy.” Young urbanites are pushing up sales of branded apparel; Indian chick lit, along with Cosmopolitan and Vogue, flies out of shops in Delhi and Mumbai. Amazingly enough, fertility rates have dropped below replacement level in several of India’s major cities, thanks in part to aspirant fashionistas. If in India—India!—the New Girl Order can reduce population growth, then perhaps nothing is beyond its powers. At the very least, the Indian experiment gives new meaning to the phrase “shop till you drop.”

« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 01:14:36 AM by Gruzinit »
The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money. – Alexis de Tocqueville

Communism is like prohibition, it's a good idea but it won't work. - Will Rogers

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 01:33:28 AM »
You know... I'm probably going to get in trouble with a lot of JTFers, but I'm not really sure that this is a problem at all. So women want to better their lives? So what. I think the human race wants to better its lot.

None of the above would be a problem if third-world creatures were kept where they belong and could not overrun Western society.

Even the so-called problem of lots of elderly people to take care of could be largely avoided if people made more of an effort to lead healthy lives in their youth.

Chaimfan

newman

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 09:28:55 AM »
The cost of family sized homes in the west is now at rediculous levels. As is the cost of raising & educating children. Ask a young college graduate.."Would you prefer a 1 room efficiency unit in the city, a sports car and plenty of bar/resteraunt/resort time, ....or........ a 3 room house in the burbs, a mini-van and life on a budget?"...........the answer is a no-brainer.

Offline RationalThought110

  • Moderator
  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 4813
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 10:17:23 AM »
"The New York Times excited considerable discussion this summer with a front-page article announcing that young women working full-time in several cities were now outearning their male counterparts."

Why is it that some people often claim that women are discriminated against with wages? 


newman

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 10:22:11 AM »
"The New York Times excited considerable discussion this summer with a front-page article announcing that young women working full-time in several cities were now outearning their male counterparts."

Why is it that some people often claim that women are discriminated against with wages? 


The feminazi groups are like the ADL. They have to raise alarm over nothing to keep the $$ rolling in.

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 03:42:41 PM »
Quote
You know... I'm probably going to get in trouble with a lot of JTFers, but I'm not really sure that this is a problem at all. So women want to better their lives? So what. I think the human race wants to better its lot.

None of the above would be a problem if third-world creatures were kept where they belong and could not overrun Western society.

Even the so-called problem of lots of elderly people to take care of could be largely avoided if people made more of an effort to lead healthy lives in their youth.

Chaimfan

I agree completely with Chaimfan.  There's no way educated people can outbreed girls who first get knocked up as teenagers.  Most responsible people want to be able to provide good lives for the children they do have, rather than going on the dole.  That's the opposite of what the Third Worlders do, which is one reason why they continue to be Third Worlders. 

A few years ago, I saw a documentary on television about a family in India.  The mother was saying that it was good to have lots of children.  She said something like "Oh, they will help me heap the cow dung."  It obviously never crossed her mind that she wouldn't be heaping cow dung if she had bothered to get an education. 

Unfortunately, we reward these reward these floozy Third Worlders with open borders and welfare payments for farting out kids they can't/won't support.  Meanwhile hard working, educated middle class families are taxed relentlessly.  Thus, both the husband and wife have to work like dogs to support their families.  And the women are lucky to get any maternity leave benefits. 

Now don't get me wrong I am NOT saying the government should not be making laws on maternity leave.  Nor should there be government day care, as the feminists constantly advocate. 

But something is very wrong when good hardworking middle class people are penalized for being married and having good jobs, investing their money in stocks, and perhaps passing their assets on their heirs. 

For example, a few years ago, I saw a television debate with that windbag William Buckley and some feminist.  The feminist was going on about how jobs are held for men who return from wars.  So do you know what that senile gasbag William Buckley had to say to that? 

"If I fall and trip on a banana peel, why should the government owe me?" 

Now what does tripping on a banana peel have to do with anything?  Here we are rewarding illegal aliens and other drek, while we penalize our own people for being successful. 



Offline kahaneloyalist

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1959
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 03:50:31 PM »
religious Jewish women who are well educated still have many children
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 03:58:41 PM »
Quote
religious Jewish women who are well educated still have many children.

True.  But they are an exception. 

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1728
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 04:23:10 PM »
religious Jewish women who are well educated still have many children
The Left wants to have more abortions and birth control to kill Jewish Children and if they do that there will be even less Jewish Children
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 04:23:23 PM »
Thanks for supporting me, Lisa.

I realize I probably wasn't clear in my original post. I don't advocate that anyone lead shallow, materialistic lives. But both men and women do that. It's a sign of the times.

If someone's whole life revolves around shopping and vacations and casual sex, obviously that is very wrong. However, there's nothing wrong with wanting to get educated and not be poor and have an enjoyable job, for either gender. I do not think we should tell people how many kids they should have, besides to emphasize that abortion is always an abominable crime.

Chaimfan

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 04:30:34 PM »
As the years pass most women are working full time, and would rather wait to acheive qualifications before getting married and having children. This a good thing, with a higher standard of education they can provide better for their entire family along with their husbands.

Also, with the standard prices of most things increasing and especially the cost of housing, there has to be a two-way income in normal families usually. That requires the women having to go out and work and spending less time domestically, and having less children helps. Despite having more children, being a good thing.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2007, 04:33:07 PM »
Despite having more children, being a good thing.
I do not agree that this is always a good thing. I think that besides being a matter of what peoples' preferences are, it should be a matter of how much people are able to afford their families.

I think Kahanism should advocate adoption on a large scale. No country is short of people. All countries are short of quality homes and G-dly upbringing for children.

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2007, 04:42:11 PM »
Despite having more children, being a good thing.
I do not agree that this is always a good thing. I think that besides being a matter of what peoples' preferences are, it should be a matter of how much people are able to afford their families.

I think Kahanism should advocate adoption on a large scale. No country is short of people. All countries are short of quality homes and G-dly upbringing for children.

Yes of course it depends in which situation you are living under e.g. its not a good thing for suffering families in Africa to worsen the situation by having more children but it is good for a able good family.

People are aware of adoption Chaimfan, they don't always opt for it not because they are mean but they wish to experience having their own children in preferance.

Quote
All countries are short of quality homes and G-dly upbringing for children.

It is very sad.

Offline New Yorker

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2694
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2007, 05:29:43 PM »
Nuke the arabs till they glow, then shoot them in the dark.

newman

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2007, 08:55:27 PM »
Noah's family did not procreate on the ark but waited until the flood ended and they could be on land and make a living.

Also, Joseph (who came from a large family) on had 2 children because Egypt was in famine.

This tells us that multiplying is not an absolute mitzvah but should only be done when there are adequate resourses to raise the children.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2007, 09:01:16 PM »
Don't forget also that Christians tend to interpret mitzvot differently than Jews, or at least most Jews...

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2007, 09:05:33 PM »
I read someplace that according to Jewish law, there are certain circumstances under which Jews (who are married to one another) are prohibited from intimate relations.  And it's not just during the wife's time of the month. 

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I believe one of them is when there is a famine. 

newman

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2007, 09:07:15 PM »
I read someplace that according to Jewish law, there are certain circumstances under which Jews (who are married to one another) are prohibited from intimate relations.  And it's not just during the wife's time of the month. 

Now correct me if I'm wrong but I believe one of them is when there is a famine. 
Correct. See my last post. I'm paraphrasing a Rabbi I saw on a documentary about population.

newman

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 09:09:28 PM »
Don't forget also that Christians tend to interpret mitzvot differently than Jews, or at least most Jews...
There's a good reason for that.

Christians don't believe in the Oral Law (Talmud). Any Rabbi will tell you the Bible CANNOT be interpreted properly WITHOUT the Oral Law.

Kiwi

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 09:24:26 PM »
I think I am one of the rare exceptions, that I was born in a culture where women are not seen as being less than a man, and women learn from an early age to be an individual and do what you want to do with your life.

If you want kids, or career or both, its totally expectable.

New Zealand was the first country to give women the vote, and see that women are human beings as much as any man.

Freedom is something that is a right not a privilege.

I could never see how any woman, can live under rules of being sub human. And I think many modern women are now seeing their own self worth. And so they should.


newman

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2007, 09:27:02 PM »
I think I am one of the rare exceptions, that I was born in a culture where women are not seen as being less than a man, and women learn from an early age to be an individual and do what you want to do with your life.

If you want kids, or career or both, its totally expectable.

New Zealand was the first country to give women the vote, and see that women are human beings as much as any man.

Freedom is something that is a right not a privilege.

I could never see how any woman, can live under rules of being sub human. And I think many modern women are now seeing their own self worth. And so they should.


New Zealand was progressive with women's rights because they have sheep to use as sex toys. :D

Kiwi

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2007, 09:55:03 PM »
I think I am one of the rare exceptions, that I was born in a culture where women are not seen as being less than a man, and women learn from an early age to be an individual and do what you want to do with your life.

If you want kids, or career or both, its totally expectable.

New Zealand was the first country to give women the vote, and see that women are human beings as much as any man.

Freedom is something that is a right not a privilege.

I could never see how any woman, can live under rules of being sub human. And I think many modern women are now seeing their own self worth. And so they should.


New Zealand was progressive with women's rights because they have sheep to use as sex toys. :D

And because Aussie's wouldn't let them tie their Kangaroo down sport  ^-^


Nothing like good old fashion Aussie bondage  :::D

newman

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2007, 10:08:09 PM »
I think I am one of the rare exceptions, that I was born in a culture where women are not seen as being less than a man, and women learn from an early age to be an individual and do what you want to do with your life.

If you want kids, or career or both, its totally expectable.

New Zealand was the first country to give women the vote, and see that women are human beings as much as any man.

Freedom is something that is a right not a privilege.

I could never see how any woman, can live under rules of being sub human. And I think many modern women are now seeing their own self worth. And so they should.


New Zealand was progressive with women's rights because they have sheep to use as sex toys. :D

And because Aussie's wouldn't let them tie their Kangaroo down sport  ^-^


Nothing like good old fashion Aussie bondage  :::D
Mind out of the gutter!

We have legitimate reasons for tieing our kangaroos down, taking our koalas back, keeping our cockatoos cool AND nailing our fallen comrades' hides to the shed! >:(

Kiwi

  • Guest
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2007, 10:21:10 PM »
I think I am one of the rare exceptions, that I was born in a culture where women are not seen as being less than a man, and women learn from an early age to be an individual and do what you want to do with your life.

If you want kids, or career or both, its totally expectable.

New Zealand was the first country to give women the vote, and see that women are human beings as much as any man.

Freedom is something that is a right not a privilege.

I could never see how any woman, can live under rules of being sub human. And I think many modern women are now seeing their own self worth. And so they should.


New Zealand was progressive with women's rights because they have sheep to use as sex toys. :D

And because Aussie's wouldn't let them tie their Kangaroo down sport  ^-^


Nothing like good old fashion Aussie bondage  :::D
Mind out of the gutter!

We have legitimate reasons for tieing our kangaroos down, taking our koalas back, keeping our cockatoos cool AND nailing our fallen comrades' hides to the shed! >:(

 :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The New Girl Order
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2007, 10:38:30 PM »
Newman, I was not trying to pit Judaic and Christian theology against one another. Christians don't despise the Talmud/oral Torah. We say that it is brilliant rabbinic commentary, but not necessarily divinely inspired. Some Jews also say that. I don't think you can always say that Christian biblical interpretations are in error and that all Jewish understandings are incontrovertible.