Noahide Korbanot

[Raulmarrio2000]

I have read that (pure) Noahides are theoretically allowed to offer Korbanor to Hashem un their own countries (providing they know how to do). Also Jews can guide them, but cannot take part in the Korban ( since a Jew is forbidden to do a Koeban outside EY). Have anyone heard if some Noahide org has ever tried to restablish that practise of Hevel and Noah?

[Dexter]

Korbanot = sacrifices

[Raulmarrio2000]

Korbanot can be translated as sacrifices, exactly. But the meaning is a bit different. Korban in Hebrew means "to bring near". Korbanot are the offerings to G-d ancient Noahide made, and also the offering of the Israelites in the Tabernacle and the Temple. Today Jews cannot do it since they still haven't rebuilt the Temple. Noahides had abandoned the practise long ago, since original Noahides were gradually led ashtray by paganism. But now Noahides are returning.....

[jdl4ever]

It's definitely allowed.  See Noah, Haval, Avimelech and the other Gentiles in the Bible all brought sacrifices.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Wasn't Avimelech evil though? I don't think he was a Noahide. I think you have him mixed up with Malkitzedek who was really Shem.

Avimelch was a Noahide by name, and he feared Hashem, but not a good Noahide. We can compare him to a secular Jew. Many Jews in the Bible also brought Korbanot but were sinners, that's why the prophets warn that a Korban without a clean hart is invalid

[OdKahaneChai]

Wasn't Avimelech evil though? I don't think he was a Noahide. I think you have him mixed up with Malkitzedek who was really Shem.

Malchitzedek was a Kohen, so I would put him in a different category...

[jdl4ever]

Wasn't Avimelech evil though? I don't think he was a Noahide. I think you have him mixed up with Malkitzedek who was really Shem.

He wasn't evil as far as I remember, in fact my impression from reading the Torah was that he was a righteous guy as he let Avraham stay in his land, gave him gifts and made a treaty with him.  But according to the commentaries G-d didn't like that Avraham made a peace treaty with him to give away land from Israel so that may be where you are taking this from but that doesn't mean anything since we are not allowed to give away parts the land even to a friendly nation.  In any case, the man was a Noahide. 

[Raulmarrio2000]

Avimelech did in fact violate one of the Noahide Laws, he took Sarah to his palace (Gezel-Theft/kidnapping) and even has the intention of raping her. He believed in the Noahide Laws and was afraid of the punishment for adultery when he knew Sarah was married. Just a non-observant Noahide!!! He only knew the Laws. Like Olmerts who is Jew by name, he may celebrate the Feast but not the Laws about the Land of Yisrael.

Bur I was asking about possible Noahide congregations who may consider the possibility of re-starting the Noahide Korbanot. Do you know any?

[jdl4ever]

Hmm.  I never thought about it that way, I always thought Sarah went willingly since she was afraid of the king, but the Torah doesn't give details so your explanation sounds plausible.  What do you care if the Noahide congregations are offering sacrifices yet or not, it is up to you to do what's right in G-d's eyes so if you want to offer a sacrifice to G-d then go ahead, just make sure it's a Kosher animal like a pigeon. 

[Raulmarrio2000]

Hmm.  I never thought about it that way, I always thought Sarah went willingly since she was afraid of the king, but the Torah doesn't give details so your explanation sounds plausible.  What do you care if the Noahide congregations are offering sacrifices yet or not, it is up to you to do what's right in G-d's eyes so if you want to offer a sacrifice to G-d then go ahead, just make sure it's a Kosher animal like a pigeon. 

No, a korban has many details. Only a congregation under the supervision of Ravs could perhaps do it now. Goyim have completely forgotten the rules. Some say Ravs still know how to teach Noahides. And you are right regarding Kosher animals. Gentiles were taught the laws of kashruth just for korbanot, since they are not bound to keep in their diet.

[jdl4ever]

Oh well, in that case go find a Rabbi to show you how to do it. 

[jdl4ever]

But then why not bring a Sacrifice made from produce like Cain did?  That's not complicated. 

[Raulmarrio2000]

But then why not bring a Sacrifice made from produce like Cain did?  That's not complicated. 

Cain knew the rules, he surely built an altar according to the Law. However his Sacrifice was not accepted, since he was not perfectly righteous. Hevel's was accepted instead.
Perhaps if some perfectly righteous Noachidim could do it now, and a miracle occured, like many times in the Bible when fire came from Heaven, the world would change. That's why I was asking if some Noahides had already thought of it.

[jdl4ever]

As far as I know there is no law with regard to an alter (not in the temple).  It can be made out of a slab of rock. 

[Raulmarrio2000]

Noahides have reborn with an amazing quickness. And it is the only faith that has been at least teoretically declared official in countries which separate religion and State. USA has santioned the 7 Laws (although they don't reinforce them by law yet), It's said that even the UN has accepted them. Other faiths have struggled for centuries to become sanctioned by the State with no succes. Does it mean that Redemtion is coming?

[Dexter]

Korbanot can be translated as sacrifices, exactly. But the meaning is a bit different. Korban in Hebrew means "to bring near". Korbanot are the offerings to G-d ancient Noahide made, and also the offering of the Israelites in the Tabernacle and the Temple. Today Jews cannot do it since they still haven't rebuilt the Temple. Noahides had abandoned the practise long ago, since original Noahides were gradually led ashtray by paganism. But now Noahides are returning.....

No, it doesn't. "To Bring near" is "Lekarev".

[OdKahaneChai]

Korbanot can be translated as sacrifices, exactly. But the meaning is a bit different. Korban in Hebrew means "to bring near". Korbanot are the offerings to G-d ancient Noahide made, and also the offering of the Israelites in the Tabernacle and the Temple. Today Jews cannot do it since they still haven't rebuilt the Temple. Noahides had abandoned the practise long ago, since original Noahides were gradually led ashtray by paganism. But now Noahides are returning.....

No, it doesn't. "To Bring near" is "Lekarev".

It actually does, Dexter.  You need to shape up on your Biblical Hebrew! 

[shemtov]

Noachide Korban - this is going to keep me up nights!

By general rule, the Noachide korban cannot replicate the Jewish korban, but it would have to be carried out in a similar manner. There's matters of the mizbe'ach and it's construction.

Looking in the Torah I find in Bereishis 8:20 - Then Noach BUILT a mizbe'ach to G-d and took of every kosher animal and kosher bird and made burnt offerings on the mizbe'ach. I put an emphasis on "built" because this would compare to Bereishis 9:20-21 "Noach, the man of the Earth, debased himself and PLANTED a vineyard. He drank of the wine and became intoxicated..."

In both cases Torah refers to the preparation to the act. If you know anything about wine making, there is a considerable effort in cultivating grapes to produce wine. By the same token, the act of building the mizbe'ach is mentioned and one can infer that Noach's mizbe'ach took a significant effort to built. If it was merely a flat rock, the act of building a mizbe'ach would not be mentioned.

It would be a chillul Hashem to make a copy of either the copper or gold mizbe'ach, but the mizbe'ach would have to be something constructed in a manner similar to the way they were constructed and you have to consider things like the prohibition against striking the stones with iron. Good luck finding a shamir!   

Assuming you can figure out how to build a mizbe'ach, your next challenge is that you would have to learn to be a shochet. An animal improperly slaughtered would be piggul.

At this point, one would think it would be wise start with small animals like kosher birds. There's another wrinkle there since birds were slaughtered using a technique called melikah where the kohen used his thumbnail to to puncture the back of the bird's neck and cut through to the front.

In the case of Noach, the Torah specifies a burnt offering. Burnt offering in the Jewish korban were not eaten, but burnt entirely on the outer mizbe'ach of the Beis Hamikdash.

I'm going to have to study this some more.

[shemtov]

Update:

This is only preliminary research. I'm going to have to discuss this with rabbonim.

The Noachide mizbe'ach would have to be specially constructed for the only purpose of korbanot and no other use.

It should be constructed of naturally occurring materials (rocks).

It's dimensions are not critical, but gematria should be considered in dimensions. An access ramp would not be needed so long as there is no chance of "offerer" accidentally exposing himself.

Above I mentioned melikah. This is outlined in Vayikra 5:8 and since it is specifically Jewish, a Noachide "offerer" would probably only have to perform shechita.

The offering itself can be any kosher animal. It could be eaten, but only within close proximity to the mizbe'ach. I don't see any particular reason for the meat to not be refridgerated and eaten at a later time, so long as some of it is eaten immediately and it does not leave the close proximity of the mizbe'ach.

I would define close proximity as a "Talmud mile" or 2000 amah, which would be 3000'.

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