Author Topic: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)  (Read 7525 times)

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Offline takebackourtemple

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Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« on: November 20, 2006, 08:59:13 PM »
   In the ask JTF show for November 19th, Chaim gave answers to why women cannot be rabbis and cannot read from the torah. I've added preist to include the gentiles.

1. A rabbi/preist needs to have the proper ordination.
2. The first was that it would give men impure thoughts while they are praying and that while it would do the same for women, hashem trusts women more than they do men.
3. Women are impure during their period and it is a sin to touch something holy when you are impure.

   I have questions about all three things that were mentioned, but in my opinion feel that item #3 has the most merit. IF WE COULD LIMIT THIS POST TO ITEM #3 FOR NOW IT WOULD BE GREAT. I did a google search and found the most common source of discussion relates to Leviticus 15. http://www.mum.org/leviticu.htm. Does anyone have any other sources to this topic?

   One term I see here is "unclean". From what I read, a man can be clean or unclean just as a woman can. In the absence of items 1 and 2, would a woman be allowed to do rabinical duties when she was clean? Does this restrict a male rabbi from being able to do his job when he is "unclean". It sure sounds difficult to be clean under this passage. Looks like the word "impure" is used for the woman and not the man. Is it the "impure" and not the "unclean" that prevents the woman from performing rabinical duties?
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Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 09:20:58 PM »
Leviticus 12:2-5 also references "she shall not touch any consecrated thing, nor enter the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed".
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Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2006, 12:52:23 AM »
I appreciate your questions but they are hard to answer so briefly because you are missing a lot of critical information.  To start with, there are different levels of uncleanliness and each one has their own series of laws which are complex even from a biblical stand point.  Secondly, a woman's unleanliness is far greater than a man's uncleanliness (in fact, it is one of the highest forms of uncleanliness and can render sanctified food unclean simply by touching).

In my own opinion, this is not a good reason why woman are not allowed to be Rabbis, and if Chaim said this I disagree.  The second reason he gave is a good reason why women can't become Rabbis though.  There are two main reasons whey women can't become Rabbis in my view besides #2 that Chaim gave.  The primary is tradition.  Judaism was founded on oral tradition dating back to even before the bible was given.  Since the time of Abrahaim, who discovered an immense amount of information about G-d through his own intellect and through prophesy, Judaism was completely an orally based religion passed down from father to son for hundreds of years and that is what kept us together as a nation in Egypt.  After we left Egypt, an expanded oral law was given by Moses as well as a written law so that the oral law should not be forgotten.  In the bible, it is menchaned many times how vital it is to pass down the law from father to son and there are too many examples to list.  According to our ancient tradition, women can not become Rabbis.  To Jews, tradition has the same significance as if the bible says something outright.  Why is another question.  There are many theories, but what matters is that it is not allowed. 

The second reason is listed in the Gemara and it has to do with the way women think that make them incapable of making complex halachic decisions.  Over my experiences, I found that women think very differently than men do and are much more superficial, stubbern and incabable of being refuted or agrued with (they cry if you prove them wrong, get insulted very quickly if you present a different view then what they learned etc) which all make them unable to become Rabbis where this is required to study the Torah and amplify it through arguments and refutations.  I personally found that women's major problem is that they have a huge preselection bias which means that whatever view/opinion that they hear first they retain that view forever and are incabable of dropping it no matter how much proof you bring to the contrary.  This is the worst thing a Rabbi could have since they must always second guess themselves and drop interpuitations on a dime if they find proofs to the contrary.  They also are made to multi task which is good for taking care of children but it is bad for studying complex issues since for this you must be able to concentrate on one issue for many days to reach a decision and they have no patience for such things.  I am not saying anything bad about women, since G-d made both men and women with different strengths and weaknesses, but it is a fact that the qualities of women are not compadible with Rabbinal positions.  The qualities of women make them better at raising children and doing occupations that take advantage of their unique qualities. 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 12:58:21 AM by jdl4ever »
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Offline Donpeyote

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2006, 02:41:09 PM »
 OF the 3 Rabbis at my Temple (over last 6 Years i have been a member) The Lady Rabbi is a CLOSE SECOND to a very Famous longtime   Bay Area Rabbi from Brooklyn Who was with us the  last 2 years (Before Retirement) and He was as Good as it Gets! And I miss them both! :'(   

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2006, 09:26:25 PM »
Ok. Since my question wasn't answered I'll drop my request to keep this post limited to point #3. I'm still requesting that these point get addressed independent of each other if they can.

2. It would give men impure thoughts while they are praying and that while it would do the same for women, hashem trusts women more than they do men.

   Wouldn't the best solution to this problem be completely separated services then? If this was the case, wouldn't we need women rabbis to lead the women's services and men rabbis for the men's services?

___________________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________
   I'll just include my personal belief for reference. I believe that a woman should be entitled to the same rights and responsibilities when it can be done in a responsible manner. I'm not against a congregation that holds different oral beliefs but share the same written torah. Christian faith is a good example. This is why I see point #3 to have merrit over the other two. In the case of a non-orthodox synagogue, I respect a potential woman rabbi who loves hashem, Israel and the Jewish people, but despise the majority that are hippies who turn the services into left wing politics and substitute prayers for songs written by artists such as Pete Seeger and the Beatles.
   The last time I went to a service led by a woman rabbi, it was a result of being invited through the JCC. I ended up driving in circles for a while before finding out that it actually was in the church that I was driving by. The kosher food that the JCC advertised turned out to be pot luck with whatever people decided to bring. They were making a big deal about some artwork(which looked like it was done by a third grader but was really done by a professional artist) to be put up on the beema. Turn! Turn! Turn! was one of their prayers. Another one(I think it was Aveenu Malkanu) had Save Darfur placed in it. Here is the website for anyone that wants to know more about this congregation. http://www.beittikvah.org/.
   Admin. I hope I'm not commiting lashon harah by talking about this so called rabbi. If so, will inviting her to this forum make it not lashon harah. Please delete this if it is.
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adam613

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 11:29:40 PM »
To be fair at this time we are all impure but during a week of every month during women's childbearing years you will be clearly impure. While it is true that a women will hear a man's voice in most shuls the women don't look at the men either.
In terms of prayer I do think men and women should pray in the same shul although they sit separately. 

I did want to mention a couple of other points that weren't mentioned if you don't mind. (I did not ask JTF yet so I only know what is said on this thread.) First of all, according to the Jewish Week in an article 2 weeks ago about 75% of the members of reform shuls are women and only 25% of men. So clearly this  doesn't attract an even balance. In terms of their mock conversions it is even worse for reform in which far more women convert then men. The other issue is the fact that as far as I know both Reform and Conservative dumbed down the requirements to be a Rabbi in order to attract women. This is affirmative action. Because being a pulpit Rabbi is very time consuming so they dumbed down the requirements to attract more women. . On that alone it is a ridiculous system. The reality is the Torah exempted women from certain obligations because there primary responsibility is being a mother and wife. However, conservative and reform want it both ways. They dumbed down the requirements for a Rabbi so a women can both be a Rabbi and a mother. Their is so need for a man in that kind of system and that is why reform and conservative are for all intensive purposes is a "women's club".

Offline Donpeyote

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 12:55:30 AM »
Mock & Dumbed Down?  in 20 Years you think Judaism in America will be like Unity or Religeous Science ? With 25to35% percent of Peoples in shul Recent Converts? (Like I will be?)

Offline LeChayim

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 02:02:28 AM »
A Rabbi's duties involve leading the congregation in fulfilling various religious obligations such as prayer, reading the Torah, Kiddish, and other things. In many cases, the Rabbi performs the task as a proxy for the individual members of the congregation. Another major role of a Rabbi is to serve as an authority when questions arise concerning Halachah (Jewish law). In that regard, the Rabbi studies Torah on behalf of the followers.

With very few exceptions, women are exempt from any positive commandments (as opposed to
prohibitive commandments) that are dependent on time (i.e.: Prayer, which can only be performed during assigned periods of the day, and Shaking a lulav, which can only be performed one week out of the year).

According to Jewish law, one can only perform a commandment on someone else's behalf if the person performing the commandment is under the same obligation as the one he's standing in for. For example, if I am going to listen to someone else read the Torah on my behalf, this can only be done if the reader is at least as obligated as I am to read the Torah.

Since a woman is exempt from so many of the tasks that a Rabbi regularly performs, she cannot carry out those tasks on behalf of the congregation. Thus she is disqualified from being a Rabbi.

There is an added dimension to all this. We are forbidden from making arbitrary changes to the religion. In a pure technical sense, it is perfectly fine for a group of women to get together and form a prayer group. They can even read from the Torah, and all that other good stuff. But only if it is done out of a legitimate desire to please and serve G-d, and only if it does not create the appearance of an attempt innovate the rules. We are forbidden from creating an actual female congregation with a female Rabbi (or even the impression of one), because such a thing does not exist within the confines of Judaism, and thus to create one would be mocking the Torah.

Also, Judaism does not allow for us to make changes based on our preception of fairness and equality. The laws are followed because we place G-d's perfect wisdom above of our limited understanding. If the Torah dictates differences between men and women, so be it. Whether we like it or not. Whether we understand it or not.

It is not by accident that most of the congregations with female Rabbis also bear closer resemblance to a new age feel-good club, then a Jewish institution. It is because they have chosen their own logic over the laws of G-d. And, as Rav Kahane said, once you do that, you are no longer following Judaism. If your name is Cohen, you're following Cohenism. If Your name is Green you're following Greenism, etc.

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2006, 07:28:30 AM »
   The other issue is the fact that as far as I know both Reform and Conservative dumbed down the requirements to be a Rabbi in order to attract women. This is affirmative action.

   Interesting point. Of course I'm against affirmative action. While dumbing down the requirements is usually wrong, I don't know if I would categorize it as such. Using gender to appoint a woman over a man would be, and I'm sure there are many cases where it is affirmative action. Most of the dumbing down of the requirements are gender nuetral from my observations.
   In most cases the orthodox synagogues are much closer to the real religion than the conservative and reform, but in my opinion all three have their strengths and faults.
   As for the faults of the orthodox. While most of what they practice is real Judiasm, they often also practice Yiddish instead. Changing the language from Hebrew to something of our enemies is wrong. As a note, "shul" is incorrect. The proper term that should be used is "beit knesset". Dressing as an 18th century polish antisemite is wrong. Making a cult out of the religion where strict European traditions are practiced instead of the real religion is wrong. The Samar or Saint Mary cult is an example of Jews that don't practice the real religion, but practice Yiddish Nazism instead. The typical modern orthodox beit knesset is probably the closest to doing everything correct, but has been corrupted to some degree by this evil.
   I can't particularly say anything good about the conservative or reform movements since most of what I've seen is wrong. They often do at least read the prayers correctly when they read in Hebrew. I've gone to a few services where my prayers were more meaningful because some of them were in English and I was able to understand them. Reading the prayers in English while the rest of the congregation does something else doesn't quite have the same meaning.
   Getting back to the topic of the discussion, I'm not against the congregation giving equal rights to woman, but at a very minimum, the rules of the written torah must apply.
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adam613

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2006, 07:17:13 PM »
>While dumbing down the requirements is usually wrong, I don't know if I would categorize it as such. Using gender to appoint a woman over a man would be, and I'm sure there are many cases where it is affirmative action. Most of the dumbing down of the requirements are gender nuetral from my observations.

I have to say most dumbing down has to do with catering to a special interest group whether it is gays, blacks, or women or other self interest group.  People don't dumb down requirements to make a job which was difficult and challenging to attain for no reason. But, yes, I have read that they have allowed certain flex schedules and other laxity of certain requirements specifically to attract women which made the position a less serious position. .

>I'm not against the congregation giving equal rights to woman

What do you mean by equal rights? Every person has equal dignity but what do you mean by equal rights?

A younger person has more leverage then an older person in many jobs. Is that equal rights? I don't support androgyny and think it is a blatant violation of the Torah. You also have the command a man shouldn't wear women's clothes and a women should not wear men's clothing. I would tend to believe it isn't just talking about clothing like many commands likely also means in other area's as well.  Furthermore, laws should take into account that men and women aren't the same and in some cases should favor a women and some laws have. But you can't have it both ways and have special rules forr women but any special rule fo a man is struck down is sexist.

Even in the workplace the women have better rights. That is the scam the feminist play that they want "equal rights". The women want "superior rights". Companies have to pay higher health insurance for childbearing women and they get paternity leave. A man doesn't. The reason is obvious but that is the whole point. That isn't equal at all. Women all want equality when it is bad for them. When it is good for them it is OK to discriminate against men. They have been shutting down male sport teams in colleges because men like sports more then women do and this is giving women "unequal rights". Yet when a male athlete wanted to take a benefit given to women and used title IX which the women use to shut down male sport teams that was not allowed. These feminists are full of crap. Then you have sexual harassment in which some women think that work is about being nice to anyone. I've read how men sometimes treat men in some jobs  and the way they talk to them. I don't think it's a good thing or right some times but now the women want special rules just for them and call this "equality". The fact that the men curse each other out is OK but if a guy curses a women out it isn't ok. No matter how you look at that (and whether you think it is right for a man to treat another man like this) this is not "equal rights" at all. This is double speak.

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2006, 11:13:11 PM »
   What I mean is equal rights in its true form. This means not appointing or barring someone soley because of their gender or ethincity. Affirmative action is not equal rights. With the equal rights comes equal responsibility. This means not taking the chance of getting blood on the torah, but also means not taking the chance of getting semen on it. Hopefully I'm not out of line, but I see the blood as the greatest danger of having a woman on the beema with the torah.
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Offline LeChayim

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2006, 10:15:16 AM »
   What I mean is equal rights in its true form. This means not appointing or barring someone soley because of their gender or ethincity. Affirmative action is not equal rights. With the equal rights comes equal responsibility. This means not taking the chance of getting blood on the torah, but also means not taking the chance of getting semen on it. Hopefully I'm not out of line, but I see the blood as the greatest danger of having a woman on the beema with the torah.


This is not an issue of equal rights. It is an issue of Halachah (Jewish law). The Torah does not perscribe equal rights to us all. This may not seem fair to you and me, but G-d is smarter than us, and He said that there should be different roles and different responsibilities and different rights, between people. Sometimes we understand His reasons, sometimes we don't. But He's always right.

There is a man in my Shul (synagogue), who always gets the first aliyah (ascendance to the Torah). I think it would be nice if perhaps they would give it to someone else once in a while. But they don't. He is a Cohen. So, he gets the first aliyah, and then I have to wait for the Levi, and then the rest of us can get in line.

Is that equality? Of course not. It's Halachah.

This has nothing to do with getting blood on the Bimah (the platform holding the Torah), how ridiculous. It's about a woman's role in life versus a man's role in life. G-d, Who designed us and made us, says that there are differences between us, and assigned us different roles.

There are also differences between Jews and Gentiles. The Torah says we are a holy people, and a chosen people. And while we can keep the Shabbat (the Sabbath), Gentiles can not. And only a Jew can get an aliyah, and only a Jew can enter into the Covenant (the act of circumsision alone will not do it), and eat the Passover Sacrifice, and perform kosher slaughter, and be King in Israel (actually, only a paternal descendant of King David), and a whole bunch of other things.

Equality? Of Course not. Halachah.

Did you ever see a football game, where the Safety decided he was going to play Defensive End, and the Left Tackle decided he was going to be the Kicker? Sure it can be done, but then it won't be football. It'll be more like a circus.

Same here. You want equality? It can be done, but it won't be Judaism. It will be "takebackourtemple-ism."

adam613

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2006, 02:27:35 PM »
Like I said. Forcing equality causes more "inequality." and is always a scam anyway. If they did allow women Rabbi's they wouldn't be treated the same way as male Rabbi's (and the requirements woudln't be the same) and to pretend that they would is more silly impossible "what-if" possibilities.

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 01:21:44 PM »
LeChayim,

   I guess you are right and I am wrong. My apologies. As a non-religious Jew I am less educated in the religion. I am often untrusting of the spoken law, because much of the oral law as practiced today has been corrupted by European cult philosophy. I see myself as a Jew rather than a Yid. I am proud of my biblical heritage, but ashamed of my European one. The problem is that I need to separate what is Jewish from what is European and sometimes I don't know how to tell.
   When something is argued verbally and different people argue different things, it is difficult to know what is correct and what is not. When something is stated clearly in the written torah, it is indisputable. So far I am convinced that a woman cannot perform rabbinical duties during her period. Whether she can be a rabbi at all, I don't know if it is Jewish law or tradition. I do believe, however, that women did not serve the duties of priests in the days of the temples. That is why I'm asking for solid references based on the written torah and no other source.

   Since you brought up the point of Cohenim and Levim, I thought I would mention a dream that really shook me several years ago. In this dream hashem gave me the chance to be a Cohen or a Levy. This is something that he normally doesn't do, but being all powerful gave me the choice. The catch was that if I made the choice, I would be bound by all the laws of it. I felt it would be an irresponsible decision to take and didn't do so. My feeling about most women who call themselves rabbis, whether hashem gave them such a choice or not, is that they made an irresponsible choice. The link I posted to beit tikva is one such example.
   I have yet to see one that is worthy of such a position, but have not ruled out hashem's power to allow such a thing. Remember the Cohenim and Levim have earned their place with hashem through rightous deeds. While people are not equal in the torah, everyone has the chance to earn a better place.
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Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2006, 01:53:12 PM »
I take offense to you calling European traditions cult like.  My grandparents come from Europe and when they were in their towns, they practiced authetic Judaism for a thousand years until they were driven out by the nazis.  There is nothing more pure to judaism than the traditions of your european ancestors since what they practiced is what Judaism is all about and was relatively unchaned for about a thousand years since they were relatively isolated in their communities.  I take pride in my heritage and I have absorbed all of my grandparents stories and teachings that were passed down to him by his father for generations.   Those who break the chain of tradition are those who destroy.  It is the reform and conservative Jews who messed things up and maybee the Chassidim had a little to do with it as well. 

Also I think you are not educated in the oral law.  To the novice it appears that there are too many arguments to get a clear picture but this is not true.  To the learned person, it is apparent when reading the Mishna for example that 99% of the time all the Rabbis agreed on a general concept but only argue on the specifics of this concept.  I suggest you study the Mishna and you will find that it is very clear and almost all the time the Rabbis agree with certaintly that a specific issue was handed down through Moses.  For example, all agree that reading the Shema is a positive commandment and must be read in the morning but they have different opinions of when the latest time is that you can read the Shema.    Similarly, the Gemara spends dozens of confusing pages arguing back and forth to find the correct law via logical deruvation so it seems confusing, but when proof is finally reached, the law is clearly established and it is no longer confusing most of the time. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 01:55:52 PM by jdl4ever »
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-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2006, 03:59:47 PM »
   I take offense to you calling European traditions cult like. 

   My goal is to save Israel and not to appease everyone. I'm sorry that you and probably millions of others are offended, but I strongly believe that we have been corrupted by our antisemitic enemies in Europe. I'm sure bad things have been done by our Arab enemies to the Sephardic even though they appear to be closer to the real Judiasm. Am I? I admit that I'm far from being a saint, but I hold strong that our experience in Europe has corrupted us and to return to real Judiasm we need to get rid of this corruption.
   Chaim had mentioned on one of his shows, that Europeans are superior. I believe this is the case genetically, but spiritually all merit that we have comes from Israel. Chaim also mentioned how Europe should suffer because of all the evil that they have done to the Jews.

    My grandparents come from Europe and when they were in their towns, they practiced authetic Judaism for a thousand years until they were driven out by the nazis. 

   Did they move to Israel? Did they stand up to the Nazis? If they did, I'm proud of them. If they did not, I'm not. My great grandparents fall into the second category.


   There is nothing more pure to judaism than the traditions of your european ancestors since what they practiced is what Judaism is all about and was relatively unchaned for about a thousand years since they were relatively isolated in their communities. 

   We did not dress as 18th century polish antisemites in the temple days. The prayer Ashray does not have an entry for the letter tes. Don't tell me the religion has been unchanged. The dress and the language are two suspicians that Chaim has confirmed for me. It is too bad he is not a rabbi, because I see him as the most ideal Jew that I can think about.

  It is the reform and conservative Jews who messed things up and maybee the Chassidim had a little to do with it as well. 

   We agree here, but I am not against a jewish group that follows the biblical religion, but has different rabbinical laws.

   Also I think you are not educated in the oral law. 

   I thought I already stated that. The problem is that every time I try to study religion, the rabbis try to impose Yiddish on me and then I give keep giving me. I will take your advise and pick up a book on Mishna. I thank you for it.

   For the time being, I have not yet been presented with an answer to my questions based on the written torah.
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Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2006, 04:31:14 PM »
if they are trying to impose Yiddish on you you are going to the wrong rabbis......you need to remember that there are 70 paths within the Torah to Hashem. If you want to learn the purest Hebrew and Jews who follow the Torah without fear of the Goyim learn with the Taimanim. Or even better go to the Zilberberg Yeshiva in Yerushalayim it a kahanist yeshiva with very high learning standards
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Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2006, 08:15:44 PM »
Takebackour temple, tradition is the essense of Judaism and I am shocked that because one or two things have been corrupted in the exile, you chose to reject your sacred traditon.  What other nation has been in existance as long as Judaism has and retained its tradition for 3400 years? One or two things that may have changed do not make any difference.  (Yes, the exiled should have been more agressive returning to Israel but you can't blame them on this since this debate started in Ezra's time by the Yeminites and was continued in the Talmud so they were just following the texts so you can't blame them.  Plus, once a Jewish state is established I don't think it is required for those living abroad to return and I have some biblical sources for this although our great leader R' Kahane holds diffrently)  Firstly, I do not know what you are talking about when you say that European Jews wear 18th century garb.  I or my ancestors did not do that.  I think you are referring to the Chassidim, so ask them this and don't accuse the Misnagdim such as myself of doing this since we do not wear Chassidik 18th century garments.   YOU who do not follow the oral law are accusing US of not being true Jews?  It is the other way around.  First, go to your grandparents or elders and absorb your traditions and then do some studying of the Torah and you will find out what authentic Judaism is about!

Secondly, Yiddish has been the major language of Jewry for 950 years, almost as long as hebrew was spoken by the Jewish people as the main language (Hebrew was the main language after the Torah was given for 1100 years until the first exile and then Aramaic was the main language and hebrew was secondary).  Therefore do not mock Yiddish, since sown into that language are the traditions of your ancestors and many ancient stories and melodies come from Yiddish. 

Thirdly, Chaim is an Askenazic European Jew since his father was a polish Jew. R' Kahane was also of European Askenazic decent (Why are all the great Kahanists Askenazic Misnagdim?). This should show you what kind of people us Misnagdim are.  Also if you mock the Europeans you are mocking the Sephardim since they were also in exile for the same length of time. 

Also you should know that my grandparents worked their whole lives but know more Torah than the average Kollel student since nothing compares to the teaching methods of old Europe where Torah was the way of life.  Also both of my grandparents speak fluent Hebrew PURELY since they learned it before Israel was founded so it is the pure hebrew unaltered by the secular state.  Someone who spoke modern hebrew and lived in Israel for a short time had a conversation with my grandfather in Hebrew (who is 95 years old now but very sick) and he was SHOCKED at how pure his hebrew was and how biblical it sounded.  So before you mock such giants, you should know who you are mocking. You have no clue the sacrifice that the previous generations suffered for us so you should think before making fun at such people who you would not be able to handle 10% of the tests that they went through.   Would you have risked your life to raise Frum children in the soviet union, would you have kept your faith after almost being killed by fleeing the nazis and serving in the Russian army in WWII.  Would you have hired a secret Rabbi to teach your son Torah in the Soviet Union under then penelty of being shipped off to Siberia and killed?  I think not, you arrogent son of a gun.  Why don't you speak with my grandparents and find out what true Jews are really about.  BTW, my grandparents went where ever they got in to.  But my grandfather's aunt WALKED to Israel from Europe in the early 1900's and their decendants are there today.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 01:54:04 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2006, 08:44:15 PM »
if they are trying to impose Yiddish on you you are going to the wrong rabbis......you need to remember that there are 70 paths within the Torah to Hashem. If you want to learn the purest Hebrew and Jews who follow the Torah without fear of the Goyim learn with the Taimanim. Or even better go to the Zilberberg Yeshiva in Yerushalayim it a kahanist yeshiva with very high learning standards

I agree that you should stay away from most of the Galut Yeshivot since I too had bad experiences with some of them. 
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline LeChayim

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2006, 11:54:50 PM »
takebackourtemple,

First of all, no need to apologize. That’s what (I presume) this forum is all about – sharing ideas, disagreements, etc.

Allow me to disagree with you once more. It is not the Oral Law that has been corrupted by the European cult philosophy. For that matter, I disagree with you that there is a European cult philosophy. Some European Jews, though not all, have corrupted Halachah by injecting their own thoughts into it, and claiming it to be Torah. But...

A) The Oral Law is not easily corrupted, because it has been solidly codified in the form of the Gemara, and various other works over the past two thousand years. Various “more-frum-than-the-Torah” Jews may claim certain things as Halachah, but we can almost always refer to the Oral Law (or a trustworthy authority) to verify.

B) Much of the corrupting (perhaps most) occurred in the post European era, when “Rabbis” started popping up on every street corner, thus creating a competition, in who’s the most religious.

C) This corrupting is not limited to Ashkenazic/European Jews.

D) The most corruption of Jewish Law was and is committed by the Reform and Conservative movements, who falsely call what they practice Judaism.

E) European Jews (while in Europe) had the greatest likelihood of keeping Judaism authentic, because they were not allowed to live among the Gentiles.

And as long as you prefer “Jew” to “Yid,” you might find it ironic that the word “Yid” is far closer to the original “Yehudi,” which was Europeanized to form “Jew.”

Do not be ashamed of the heritage of your ancestors during their stay in Europe (I don’t believe in referring to it as European heritage). Many Jews did many great things while in Europe. Need I remind you that many giants of our history lived in Europe?

I think what you’re trying to say is a lot of stuff has been made up, and disguised as Judaism, and I agree that sometimes it’s hard to tell what’s authentic, and what’s not. Here’s a tip: If the Orthodox believe in it, and the Reform don’t, chances are, it’s authentic.

On another note... What tells you that Sephardim appear to be closer to the real Judaism? I agree with Chaim that the Europeans should suffer for what they’ve done to us. But that doesn’t mean European Jews have strayed from Judaism more than Sephardic Jews.

You ask did they (jdl4ever’s European grandparents) move to Israel? Many European Jews did. Ask also how many Sephardic Jews went to Israel during the Expulsions?

Did they stand up to the Nazis? Many did. And like you, I am not proud of the fact that so many didn’t. How many Sephardim would have?

You’re right, we did not dress as 18th century Polish anti-Semites in the Temple days. We also didn’t dress like Arabs. As long as we’re on the topic, we didn’t congratulate each other with “mabrook,” and we didn’t worship the hand of Fatima.

Btw, the Ashrei prayer is from Psalm 145 – verbatim. It doesn’t have an entry for a “nun” (and the Ashkenazim didn’t add one).

Language? I lived in an Ashkenazic community where many spoke Yiddish. I disagree with it. It is a language developed and necessitated by the galut. But it is not a European language per se. On the other hand, I have also lived in a Sephardic community, where they almost exclusively speak Arabic, and they cling to that as their heritage.

My point is the galut has done a number on us all. Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Yemenite, even (perhaps especially) Israelis. Obviously, if you are a “Kahanist” (i.e., Torah believing) Jew, you must realize that. But there are many good Jews coming back to our Jewish senses. A major step is to stop identifying ourselves and each other by the venue of our exile. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And don’t delude yourself that one is better and the other is worse. A lot of good Jews were Sephardim. A lot of good Jews were Ashkenazim. It’s hard to tell, because you’d never hear them speaking in those terms.

Back to the female “rabbis”…

The Torah does not state explicitly, that women cannot be Rabbis. But the closest thing to a Rabbi at the time (an authority appointed to address questions on religious law) was limited strictly to men (Exodus 15:25-26).

Additionally, you must keep in mind that the personalities in the Talmud were the foremost experts on Jewish law. Whatever they said was based on their vast understanding of the Torah. And they ruled unequivocally that (a)women are not bound by positive commandments dependent on time, and (b) one who is not bound by a commandment cannot be appointed to carry it out on another’s behalf.

So, this is not a question of tradition. It is law. This is not a reference directly from the written Torah. But without the Oral Law, the Torah is indecipherable.

I believe the reason the female “rabbis” you have encountered are all irresponsible, is because the act of becoming a female “rabbi” can only be done by someone irresponsible. On the one hand she wants to be in an authoritative religious position, and yet on the other hand, she defies the religion itself by taking the position. That’s irresponsible.

Yes, the all Powerful Omnipotent G-d can give a woman this choice, if He wants to. But being an honest and perfect G-d, He doesn’t change what He wrote in the Torah. Thus, He doesn’t offer choice, even though He has the ability to do so.

Yes, people can earn a better place. Preferable doesn’t always mean better. And it must always be within the bounds of the Torah.

Offline androbot2084

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2006, 03:02:31 AM »
This debate reminds me of reading about Deborah in the book of Judges who was a woman who led the armies of Israel to victory.  Obviously the Torah does not command or force women to enter military service nor does the Torah allow women to be drafted. Nevertheless the written Torah does not expressely forbid women from volunteering for  military service and since no man wanted to accept the responsibility of a leadership role Deborah became the leader.  I am sure that the traditions of that day made it forbidden for a women to enter military service simply because up until then there was no provision in Torah nor was there any historical evidence of women in military service.  But I do not think that the Torah prohibits the establishement of a precedent as there very well is a first time for everything as long at it is does not violate the law. Deborah simply found a loophole in Torah and she took advantage of the opportunity. If anyone had a problem with it they would have to blame Moses for not writing in Torah expressely forbidding women from entering military service which I doubt would ever have been included in Torah because women naturally have the right to defend themselves.

adam613

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Re: Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2006, 11:58:50 PM »
Actually, while I agree that women should learn self defense (although to be fair I have never learned any self defense due to my upbringing) I think the Torah clearly does say that women should not be in combat.

In Deuteronomy 20 1-10 it discusses what we should do before engaging an enemy. It also discusses MEN who should not fight. The whole chapter uses the hebrew word Ish which means man in the gender way unlike the hebrew word Adom which just means man in the generic form. The hebrew word for women is Isha. The whole chapter is discussing what the men should do which obviously that there were only men who were in the army. Otherwise, the Torah wouldn't use the term. It discusses a man who just got married to a women in their first year or a man that is building a home or a man that is scared they should not fight. The whole topic is to the men.

Also, to be honest, in America Readers Digest had an article about how in order to get women in the military they dumbed down the requirements and women who did 10 pushups was equal to a man that did 30. Furthermore, certain jobs that used to take 2 men would now take 4 people in order to make up for the fact that the women were less physically strong. Also, certain equipment they would exempt the women from carrying. This would demoralize the men who don't appreciate the double standard here.  These are not good for an army. On top of this the feminists would train men with video's of women being raped or beaten to understand that they may happen and they shouldn't overreact to this because you shouldn't show favoritism to anybody or put one person above anybody else. It is a normal male instinct to protect a women but in the army that normal instinct could be used by the enemy to take advandage of this.

Finally, I used the example of Lot's daughters having relations with him their father because they did not hear the prophecy and really thought the world was destroyed with Sodom and Gomorrah and they were the only survivors. Obviously, this does not mean that in normal circumstances this is OK as under normal circumstances it is a very serious sin. Clearly, the Torah states that only men should be in the army regardless of women want to fight or not. (and I think generally even women in their own unit without their being mixed fighting units would do more harm then good). If g-d forbid it must be done having women in the military I still think it is an abomination and that would mean that most of the men have been killed and murdered so we should never be in a situation like that.

The Torah does say a women shouldn't wear male clothing and a man shouldn't wear women's clothing and it is an abomination. I don't think this was JUST referring to clothing. Women should not assume a mostly male type role and a man shouldn't assume a mostly female type role. That is what I think and Torah is not about loopholes. There is a spirit behind laws and one of the reason why the Jews were sent into exile was because while they may have technically fullfilled certain Mitzvahs deep down it was all a game and they treated other Jews very badly. G-d did not approve of this. Check out Issiah 58 about what g-d thought of insincere fasting.