Author Topic: Torah Question  (Read 4042 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Torah Question
« on: December 20, 2007, 04:25:03 PM »
The Torah was a revelation given to Moses was it not?

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2007, 04:27:49 PM »
Then, why in the Deutronomy is Moses's death mentioned? How could he be speaking of his own death, making reference to the number of years he lived?



Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2007, 04:46:07 PM »
The answer to your first question is, yes.

Moses mentions his death because G-d would not allow him to enter the land of Israel.  This was because during one instance when the Israelites were complaining, G-d told Moses to speak to the rock rather than striking it with his staff.  But Moses struck the rod. 

Therefore Moses knew he would not be entering the land of Israel.  Joshua would be the one leading them in his place. 

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007, 04:55:03 PM »
The answer to your first question is, yes.

Moses mentions his death because G-d would not allow him to enter the land of Israel.  This was because during one instance when the Israelites were complaining, G-d told Moses to speak to the rock rather than striking it with his staff.  But Moses struck the rod. 

Therefore Moses knew he would not be entering the land of Israel.  Joshua would be the one leading them in his place. 

So he knew he was going to pass away?

Offline shemtov

  • New JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2007, 05:06:38 PM »
The answer to your first question is, yes.

Moses mentions his death because G-d would not allow him to enter the land of Israel.  This was because during one instance when the Israelites were complaining, G-d told Moses to speak to the rock rather than striking it with his staff.  But Moses struck the rod. 

Therefore Moses knew he would not be entering the land of Israel.  Joshua would be the one leading them in his place. 

So he knew he was going to pass away?




Yes
If global warming is real, then why do I still need a blech on Shabbos?

Offline Sarah

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3341
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2007, 05:12:55 PM »
Though, Deuteronomy is made up of Moses's three sermons. So how is the entire Torah a revelation from God when it includes the spoken words of Moses?

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2007, 08:17:54 PM »
The Torah was a revelation given to Moses was it not?

The Torah was given in front of Millions of people.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dexter

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2005
  • צֶדֶק צֶדֶק, תִּרְדֹּף
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2007, 09:32:20 AM »
The Torah was a revelation given to Moses was it not?

The Torah was given in front of Millions of people.
1.2 Million, acorrding to the Torah.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline kahaneloyalist

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2007, 12:56:35 PM »
Devarim, is indeed Moshe speaking to the nation, but it was through Navua, all Navua takes a specific style tied into the Navi, but it is still divine.
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline OdKahaneChai

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1794
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2007, 01:54:49 PM »
Devarim, is indeed Moshe speaking to the nation, but it was through Navua, all Navua takes a specific style tied into the Navi, but it is still divine.
Also, in Devarim, Moshe Rabbenu lost every last bit of his ego, and the Shechina "was in his throat," so to speak.  So all of his words were literally divine.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, even though Moshe knew he was going to die, the last parts of V'zot Hab'racha (where Moshe Rabbenu dies) were written down by Yehoshua (as instructed by Hashem).  But I could be wrong...

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2007, 04:26:34 PM »
The Torah was a revelation given to Moses was it not?

The Torah was given in front of Millions of people.
1.2 Million, acorrding to the Torah.

no, 1.2 million families maybe. According to the Torah the only ones who were counted were men ages 20-60 (who qualify for the army) + double that for the women= 1.2 million + over 60 years old + children( which were many back then) I would estimate a minimum of 7 million Jews + the eruv rav (the egyptian's).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline jdl4ever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2000
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2007, 07:58:14 PM »
I've heard that Joshua wrote the last 8 verses of the Torah.
According to some commentaries Moses wrote the last several verses in code format and Joshua decoded them but every other verse was written by Moses.  According to my memory the commentary Ibn Ezra differs and says that Joshua wrote the last several verses in the Torah himself as well as a few other verses in the Torah that say things like "and the Cannanites were then in the Land".  It is irrelevent if Joshua wrote a few verses to complete the Torah since he was also a great Prophet and did so at the instruction of G-d as did Moses.  The Torah is called the "Torah of Moses" since the whole Torah was written by Moses except for the last verses and perhaps a few others according to the Ibn Ezra which Joshua completed.  The reason why G-d did this is probably symbolic that the Torah can't be completed until one enters the land of Israel.  G-d revealed the entire Torah to Moses and he transmitted it to Israel and to Joshua, everything about the Torah that Joshua knew was transmitted from Moses.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2007, 08:03:58 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Lubab

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
Re: Torah Question
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2007, 01:57:55 PM »
There are two opinion in the Talmud that deal with Sarah's question.

One says that Joshua wrote those verses. Another says that Moses wrote them with tears (knowing he would later be punished and die before going into the holy land).

According to the first opinion the Torah was not given compeletely on Sinai and was completed as the events actually happened.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.