Israel > The JTF Hebrew Club
The Correct Pronunciation of Hebrew
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 01:04:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on January 06, 2008, 11:29:05 AM ---No, Ashkenazi Hebrew is not sooooo wrong and sefaradi hebrew soooo wrong.
--- End quote ---
I don`t know to whome you are referring your statement to.
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on January 06, 2008, 11:29:05 AM ---But since our sages, mainly, Rav Saadia Gaon but also Rabbi Yaakov Emden, Rashi and the Ibn Ezra have been so kind as to explain to us how to pronounce hebrew, Why are we even having this discussion?
Just switch to the correct pronounciation. What's the problem?
And don't tell me, "I must continue doing whatever my father did."
That is a untenable position. Continuing a mistake just because your father did so ensures that nothing will ever be corrected.
That cannot be what G-d wants from us. Absolute fidelity to incorrect pronunciation.
--- End quote ---
it is difficult enough to switch from the Ivrit/modern hebrew/secular zionist pronounciation taught in modern orthodox schools and many shuls. Into our father`s ashkenazi or Sefaradi pronounciation.
But to change to a pronounciation that only Rabbi Bar Hayyim and his students know, that is just unfeasible. And if he is so sure, then he should write an article that proves it beyond any doubt. Proving not just that neither ashkenazi nor Sefaradi can be right. But proving that his pronounciation is right. And then that can be put to expert rabbis with different positions, and we can see the arguments against. And then we can decide what is correct.
--- End quote ---
First of all, he already wrote such an article. It was on his previous website. Torahlight.com but he shut down that site and did not carry the article over to machon shilo.
But I would suggest that you read the perush of Rabbi Saadia Gaon to the Sefer Yetzirah in which he says that hebrew and arabic are identical except for the fact that Hebrew has no J sound, no palatial D and no Palatial DH and Arabic has no P, no G and no V.
Otherwise the consonants are identical.
Therefore let's take a look and the Hebrew and Arab Alphabets so that we figure out the identical letters.
The most common Abjad sequence is (from left to right):
أ ب ج د ﻫ و ز ح ط ي ك ل م ن س ع ف ص ق ر ش ت ث خ ذ ض ظ غ
This is pretty much identical to the sequence in Hebrew alphabet but the Alphabet that is completely identical to the Hebrew Alphabet is the Aramaic Alphabet. Take alook.
Letter name Letter form Equivalent Hebrew Sound value
Ālaph
Bēth
Gāmal
Dālath
Hē
Waw
Zain
Hēth
Tēth
Yudh
Kāph
Lāmadh
Mim
Nun
Semkath
‘Ē
Pē
Sādhē
Qoph
Rēsh
Shin
Tau
As any of you can see this is identical to Hebrew.
After all, Part of the Tanakh was written in Aramaic so an identical alphabet makes perfect sense.
So the matter is actually quite simple. Listen to an Arabic or Aramaic speaker pronounce a Sadi and you will see how to pronounce it.
This is quite simple. The correct way to pronounce the consonants is well known.
The vowels are a little harder, but knowable.
Every single Jewish community pronounces a Hiriq and a Shva and Patah and a Shubuk the same.
I am choosing to not including the Polish and Hungarian for consideration because it so wildly incorrect.
The only vowels that are contested are segol, tsere, Kametz and Holem.
Rabbi Yaakov Emden says clearly that Sefaradim are incorrect in pronouncing a Kametz and a Patah and in pronouncing a Tsere and a segol the same so the question is how do these nekudot differ.
Are the ashkenazim correct in pronouncing a tzere and ay?
Of course not. How why in the world would a yudh be continually added to words whose nikud is a tzere. It makes no sense. The yudh would be redundant if you are supposed to pronounce it as an ay. the Same goes for the CHoylem that ashkenazim say oy instead of o. It make no sense. One can safely say that tzere and holem should be pronounced the way sefaradim do.
Therefore, how is a segol different from a tzere?
Rashi calls a segol a patah katan. a small A sound.
Therefore the yementie way of prouncing segol like the a in rat cat bad and mad makes perfect sense and should be followed.
Now the Kametz. Well, we know that it must be different from a patah and the yemenite and ashkenazi kametz is the same so we should pronounce it like the a in father.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---
Regarding the Taf with a dot. Do you give it a generic name with or without a dot? or 2 different names?
--- End quote ---
Two different names. Taw and Thaw.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---
When you say Taw/Tau, do you mean as in ouch?
--- End quote ---
Close. But since the niqudh is a kametz, it should be a as in father followed by a w sound. Kind of like in American slang people say Naaaw as a form of No. That is the correct sound.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---Looking at T with dot.
Gen 1:24 Tohtzay haaretz
with Tohtzay, the "Taw" is in the beginning.
It is followed by a vav acting as a silent vowel-letter, it has a cholem on it.
How do you pronounce the first syllable?
starts with t, then
ou as in ouch(like couch) ,
O (like boris),
?
--- End quote ---
O like boris. since as you said the vav is acting not as a consonant but as a silent vowel letter.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---How about
Gen 16:32
HeAchaltee
How are you pronouncing that - the tee part?
T with dot, followed by yud with chirik
Do you pronounce it the same, or does it get some kind of "ow" sound ?
--- End quote ---
No, it gets no ow sound because there is no waw in sight. The tee pronunciation is correct. Taw is the name of the letter which gives a t sound you don't add an aw whenever it is used just as you don't add a leph everytime an aleph is used.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---I wonder if maybe we should start a new thread for this?
--- End quote ---
Done.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---Are you willing to detail further how to pronounce it, in the sense of how it differs from ivrit or ashkenazi ? It looks like quite a job..
--- End quote ---
Sounds like a Job For............................Judeanoncapta!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---If I can understand it, I will happily explain to others how you and rabbi bar hayyim pronounce it.. with some posts on usenet too, so it is archived properly(one trusts Google`s usenet archive!).
--- End quote ---
Sounds great.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---And regearding the T without a dot. When you say Bath. Do you mean like somebody with a lisp trying to say The. A better example.. the word Thermal. So the Th is softer than the word The.
--- End quote ---
I was not aware that there is a difference between the TH in Bath and the TH in Thermal. Please educate me as to the difference.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---So, Gen 1:2. Tohu VaVohu , the Tohu is actually Thohu where the Th is as in Thermal ?
--- End quote ---
Yes.
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 06, 2008, 09:10:31 PM ---thanks
--- End quote ---
Just doing my job.
Dexter:
So where can someone study how to pronounce Hebrew correctly. I know I don't pronounce correctly the letters:
Kuf
Tsadik
Tav and Tet
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Dexter on January 07, 2008, 11:55:07 AM ---So where can someone study how to pronounce Hebrew correctly. I know I don't pronounce correctly the letters:
Kuf
Tsadik
Tav and Tet
--- End quote ---
ﻕ = Kuf
ﺹ = Tsadik
ت = Tav
ط = Tet
Ask the guy who is teaching you Arabic how to pronounce these Arabic letters and you will know.
But to be brief, a Kuf is a Uvular K. A tsadik is a palatial S. A Tav is a Simple T sound and a Tet is a Palatial T.
Dexter:
What is "palatial" T ?
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