Does Everything Happen For A Reason?

[Dr. Dan]

Nu where's you answer  . Next time please provide proof, instead of stating something false. What I posted is something that not I myself made up, but comes from a famous book, by a famous Rav (Rav Arush Slita) who brings text and proof from many places in Torah).
 Im not personally offended, but it really p*sses me off when people make statements and because they want some legitimacy state that the Rambam says it.

Savlanoot!!!!

Maimonides (1135-1204) simply said that we may not say that G-d does so and so because a human does so and so. This has been normative Judaism. There is no tit for tat in our religious belief system. Jews have become too Christianized in their theology.

 Right, and where does he say so?  Again no proof, just making some statement.
Rabbanim know a lot more that someone with an opinion, and no this isn't Judaism becoming cristianized, you should go learn some Torah and then speak, don't post things that are only convenient to you without the right proof and without having Daat- first learn Torah and then make an opinion.

So that's your arguement..you can't prove it wrong...nuf said... YOu cannot prove this statement is wrong..so sad..sooooo sad..Because it's a true statement to a certain degree.
Going back to your refute from my original refute:

When did I ever say that the Gadolim were not teaching something when talking about natural disasters... My worries is when any human being especially learned men equate the death of innocent people to natural disasters.  Yes, New Orleans was an evil place....But innocent people lived within it.  Young children died...they didn't go whoring themselves on Burbon Street!

And what about the 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah?  Well I supposed they were evil children and Gd killed them all...well gee....(Gd forbid!)...Come on Tzvi...get real! 

I'm sorry, I disagree with these Gadolim who say things like that...and btw, that is a real quote given to me by my rabbi when I had the same arguement you had about Katrina and other natural disasters.  This quote by Rambam, set me straight...No human, nor any Gadolim..even the biggest has a right to think for Gd.  Yes, they can teach us something about sin and how it's wrong to sin..and teach us the Jewish way of living..Yes...I respect that aspect of their authority...But how dare any mortal ever EVER say that a natural disaster took place because of the sinners of that city...when it turns out that innocent children were also affected..SO COLD...SOOOOOOO COLD! NO COMPASSION!!!  Where are you real Jewish roots without compassion!?

[Dr. Dan]

There is nothing we can say on this thread or anything that any Rabbi on this planet can tell you to explain the ways of G-d, the most they can do is guide you in the right direction.  Trying to understand G-d and his perfect ways is impossible for us to understand completely so we try our best but it can only be understood yourself by thinking about it on your own and looking into the Torah, no one can explain it to you since it is a hidden area that you must work on your own and feel the answers as best as you can by yourself.  It is lifelong quest that every individual has a different potential of understanding and no two people understand the same way but in the end not even the angels understand the ways of G-d to its entirety, only G-d himself understands his own oneness and perfection.  If you look into the Torah, live the Torah and think about it over many years, some answers will reveal themselves about the ways of G-d.

Amen!

[Dr. Dan]

Nu where's you answer  . Next time please provide proof, instead of stating something false. What I posted is something that not I myself made up, but comes from a famous book, by a famous Rav (Rav Arush Slita) who brings text and proof from many places in Torah).
 Im not personally offended, but it really p*sses me off when people make statements and because they want some legitimacy state that the Rambam says it.

Savlanoot!!!!

Maimonides (1135-1204) simply said that we may not say that G-d does so and so because a human does so and so. This has been normative Judaism. There is no tit for tat in our religious belief system. Jews have become too Christianized in their theology.

 Right, and where does he say so?  Again no proof, just making some statement.
Rabbanim know a lot more that someone with an opinion, and no this isn't Judaism becoming cristianized, you should go learn some Torah and then speak, don't post things that are only convenient to you without the right proof and without having Daat- first learn Torah and then make an opinion.

So that's your arguement..you can't prove it wrong...nuf said... YOu cannot prove this statement is wrong..so sad..sooooo sad..Because it's a true statement to a certain degree.
Going back to your refute from my original refute:

When did I ever say that the Gadolim were not teaching something when talking about natural disasters... My worries is when any human being especially learned men equate the death of innocent people to natural disasters.  Yes, New Orleans was an evil place....But innocent people lived within it.  Young children died...they didn't go whoring themselves on Burbon Street!

And what about the 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah?  Well I supposed they were evil children and Gd killed them all...well gee....(Gd forbid!)...Come on Tzvi...get real! 

I'm sorry, I disagree with these Gadolim who say things like that...and btw, that is a real quote given to me by my rabbi when I had the same arguement you had about Katrina and other natural disasters.  This quote by Rambam, set me straight...No human, nor any Gadolim..even the biggest has a right to think for Gd.  Yes, they can teach us something about sin and how it's wrong to sin..and teach us the Jewish way of living..Yes...I respect that aspect of their authority...But how dare any mortal ever EVER say that a natural disaster took place because of the sinners of that city...when it turns out that innocent children were also affected..SO COLD...SOOOOOOO COLD! NO COMPASSION!!!  Where are you real Jewish roots without compassion!?

nuff said...i'm waiting for your reply Tzvi....you're asking your rebbi..I"ll sit and wait for HIS answer.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
 One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
 Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
 When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.

[Dr. Dan]

I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
 One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
 Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
 When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.

Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me!  We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).

The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a  really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.

Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens.  Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward..  SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment.  The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation.  It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabb-t is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
 Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefardi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefardi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefardim).

[OdKahaneChai]

I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
 One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
 Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
 When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.

Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me!  We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).

The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a  really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.

Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens.  Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward..  SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment.  The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation.  It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.

Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept.  Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.

[Dr. Dan]

Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabbat is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
 Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefaradi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefaradi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefaradim).

Let's be honest..I am a Jew like you Tzvi..shame on you!  No, reincarnations is not Judaism...no way no how..it's not Judaism.  The other two, yes Judaism.

I do not compare rabbis to priests and imams..I compare these specific things about what they might have said or implied to be very similar to Imams and Priests who have no compassion whatsoever for the innocent!

Tzvi, you need to grow up and think for yourself than just to follow without criticism...Don't be surprised..I'm much older than you and have therefore lived more and longer than you to know better than you.  To study and know Torah, you have to live in this world than stick your nose in the books 24/7.  But hey, that's my opinion. I guess to you I'm going to hell because I'm not as jewish as you...What a sham!!! This isn't Judaism which you preach..it's fundamentalism which ruins Judaism and all decent people in this world!

[Dr. Dan]

I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
 One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
 Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
 When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.

Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me!  We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).

The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a  really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.

Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens.  Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward..  SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment.  The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation.  It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.

Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept.  Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.

Oh come on!  We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach!  Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!!  Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!!  Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...

Come on..reincarnation by butt!

[jdl4ever]

Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabbat is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
 Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefaradi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefaradi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefaradim).

I'm in agreement with Dr. Dan and don't think that reinarnation is part of Judaism.  Also, Tzvi your answers are oversimplified with a false sense of understanding and incomplete.  Punishment happens sometimes without sin and there are some possible reasons that you can give about select cases some that Tzvi stated. A few other cases only a few people uncover the answer since it is secret and requires an elevated state to perceive and you usually understand only partially one aspect of the reason.  But other cases you can't possibly understand the reason.

I'm not going to try and reveal anything about this hidden area of the Torah since you can't explain it with words but have to understand it by yourself.  All that I can say is the basics, that when G-d punishes the wicked of an area and some righteous people are mixed in with the wicked, he may punish the righteous of that area as well if they are small in number.  This is derived in the Torah from the incident with Abraham and the city of Sodom when Abraham prayed for the city.  G-d also holds a group of people accountable as a whole and punishes them as a whole if they committed a big sin.  What Tzvi said is correct that some times righteous people of a group suffer for the sins of the wicked for this reason. For example, Israel was punished by G-d in the Bible for sinning even though there were many righteous people who were punished as well.  Similarly, G-d punishes the children usually up to 3 or 4 generations down the line for the sins of a father if he committed a sin as it says in the Torah.  But if a nation sins a very great sin like the golden calf, then future generations are punished for this sin even after 4 generations, the same applies to murder according to my opinion.  If you ask why does G-d do all these things, this is a infinitely deep matter that you must try to uncover yourself the best as you can but it is impossible for a mortal to understand all the reasons about G-d's ways.  Sometimes G-d punishes you for your benefit, as a test.  G-d knows that you are capable of passing the test, and if you pass the test, you get great reward in this world or the world to come.  See the story of Abraham in Genesis.  Sometimes G-d punishes a group of people or an individiual and it doesn't fit into any of these categories, but they are completely righteous and they or their ancestors never made any proportional sin in the past; as G-d made the ancient Jews slaves in Egypt of a few hundred years and the worse sin they did was the selling of Joseph, which is disproportionate punishment.  This is the most difficult case that no one understands and those who know something about it can't reveal it since they discovered it when they were in a certain elevated state which is required to receive the "flash of lightning" (as the Rambam says) that is necessary to mentally absorb such an understanding so you must try to uncover as much as you can by yourself over the years and usually when people get older or concentrate on this question over several years they begin to understand more.

[Dr. Dan]

Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabbat is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
 Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefaradi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefaradi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefaradim).

I'm in agreement with Dr. Dan and don't think that reinarnation is part of Judaism.  Also, Tzvi your answers are oversimplified with a false sense of understanding and incomplete.  Punishment happens sometimes without sin and there are some possible reasons that you can give about select cases some that Tzvi stated. A few other cases only a few people uncover the answer since it is secret and requires an elevated state to perceive and you usually understand only partially one aspect of the reason.  But other cases you can't possibly understand the reason.

I'm not going to try and reveal anything about this hidden area of the Torah since you can't explain it with words but have to understand it by yourself.  All that I can say is the basics, that when G-d punishes the wicked of an area and some righteous people are mixed in with the wicked, he may punish the righteous of that area as well if they are small in number.  This is derived in the Torah from the incident with Abraham and the city of Sodom when Abraham prayed for the city.  G-d also holds a group of people accountable as a whole and punishes them as a whole if they committed a big sin.  What Tzvi said is correct that some times righteous people of a group suffer for the sins of the wicked for this reason. For example, Israel was punished by G-d in the Bible for sinning even though there were many righteous people who were punished as well.  Similarly, G-d punishes the children usually up to 3 or 4 generations down the line for the sins of a father if he committed a sin as it says in the Torah.  But if a nation sins a very great sin like the golden calf, then future generations are punished for this sin even after 4 generations, the same applies to murder according to my opinion.  If you ask why does G-d do all these things, this is a infinitely deep matter that you must try to uncover yourself the best as you can but it is impossible for a mortal to understand all the reasons about G-d's ways.  Sometimes G-d punishes a group of people or an individiual and it doesn't fit into any of these categories, but they are completely righteous and they or their ancestors never made any proportional sin in the past; as G-d made the ancient Jews slaves in Egypt of a few hundred years and the worse sin they did was the selling of Joseph, which is disproportionate punishment.  This is the most difficult case that no one understands and those who know something about it can't reveal it since they discovered it when they were in a certain elevated state which is required to receive the "flash of lightning" (as the Rambam says) that is necessary to mentally absorb such an understanding so you must try to uncover as much as you can by yourself over the years and usually when people get older or concentrate on this question over several years they begin to understand more.

Thank you JDL4ever...actually, I heard today that it was 7 generations and not 4 generations...Nevertheless, my point really is none of us really know.  We should try to avoid as much as we can to say unrelated A became unrelated B...

Also you imply hidden meanings that you won't reveal in what you wrote in the beginning..I assume you meant the Kabbalah.  Once again, we all agree that you have to be a Torah and Talmud scholar over the age 40 be married and have at least one child...My friends, I'm not that, nor is Tzvi...

[OdKahaneChai]

I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
 One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
 Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
 When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.

Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me!  We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).

The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a  really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.

Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens.  Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward..  SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment.  The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation.  It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.

Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept.  Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.

Oh come on!  We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach!  Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!!  Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!!  Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...

Come on..reincarnation by butt!

Look in your siddur.  You can't just deny this with any evidence supporting your argument.

[Dr. Dan]

I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
 One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
 Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
 When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.

Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me!  We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).

The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a  really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.

Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens.  Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward..  SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment.  The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation.  It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.

Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept.  Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.

Oh come on!  We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach!  Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!!  Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!!  Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...

Come on..reincarnation by butt!

Look in your siddur.  You can't just deny this with any evidence supporting your argument.

which siddur what page...i'll be sure to look it up...

btw, siddur isn't Torah...if it is a teeny tiny passage of poetry, it's poetry...

I was told by a learned ORthodox Rabbi once that if I saw somethign from nature that was unusual and it especially reminded us someone who passed...such as a moth that just wouldn't go away (and that it was the spirit of a loved one who passed), the best thing to do is light a candle...what he meant to say was, "Hey, this reincarnation thing is not our thing..however, whatever might move you to think about someone who has passed on, light a candle in their memory."  I take what he said as a true reality...

And if reincarnation were true, you tell me, how the HECK do any of us know that any of those 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah were reincarnated from something else?!  Please spare me!!! It makes me sick that none of you can't accept this coldness! IT's a damn shame!!!!  This is not what I want to expect from fellow Jews especially Gadolim who allegedly implied or said these things!

[jdl4ever]

I am not talking about the Kabalah of the Zohar or any Kabalah as modern people call it and refer to, something that is written in books that fools brag "I read this book so I know secrets of the Torah".  No.  I am talking about the hidden areas of the Torah (the REAL Kabalah that the Rambam talks about) that their are no books to consult, no one to ask on the matter to reveal it, and no two people understand the secret the exact same way from the exact same angle.  The only way to learn this is to uncover it yourself by studying the written and Oral Torah, sometimes if you are lucky you can find a few pieces in books written by great Rabbis as well, and thinking about it over several years with no help from anyone but G-d himself.  And if you are lucky G-d will reveal something to you usually by temporarily elevating your mind above this world. The secret is frequently never fully revealed but is a lifelong quest where you pick up more pieces as you go on.  See the Rambam's guide to the perplexed and he says similar to what I am saying.  Sometimes if you are worthy and know something about the secret you can cheat and ask someone for hints as the Rambam says.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

[OdKahaneChai]

I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
 One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
 Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
 When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.

Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me!  We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).

The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a  really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.

Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens.  Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward..  SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment.  The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation.  It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.

Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept.  Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.

Oh come on!  We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach!  Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!!  Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!!  Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...

Come on..reincarnation by butt!

Look in your siddur.  You can't just deny this with any evidence supporting your argument.

which siddur what page...i'll be sure to look it up...

btw, siddur isn't Torah...if it is a teeny tiny passage of poetry, it's poetry...

I was told by a learned ORthodox Rabbi once that if I saw somethign from nature that was unusual and it especially reminded us someone who passed...such as a moth that just wouldn't go away (and that it was the spirit of a loved one who passed), the best thing to do is light a candle...what he meant to say was, "Hey, this reincarnation thing is not our thing..however, whatever might move you to think about someone who has passed on, light a candle in their memory."  I take what he said as a true reality...

And if reincarnation were true, you tell me, how the HECK do any of us know that any of those 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah were reincarnated from something else?!  Please spare me!!! It makes me sick that none of you can't accept this coldness! IT's a damn shame!!!!  This is not what I want to expect from fellow Jews especially Gadolim who allegedly implied or said these things!

In any Siddur in a lot of places.  For example, look in the first paragraph of Kiryas Shema al Hamitah.

Whether you like it or not, gilgul is almost universally accepted, by both Chasidim and Misnagdim.  This is Yiddishkeit.

[jdl4ever]

The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion, and I think they are concepts of recent onset derived from idolatry.  A lot of Rabbis accept "Gilgul" so if you want to believe in it I can't stop you.  But I'm going to write my opinion about it, that it is nonsense.

[OdKahaneChai]

The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion

That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

[jdl4ever]

The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion

That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?

Correct.  He was one of the greatest Rabbis who ever lived and if it was Judaism he would have wrote about it when he talked about heaven and hell.

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sephardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my God, and God of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

[OdKahaneChai]

The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion

That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?

Correct.  He was one of the greatest Rabbis who ever lived and if it was Judaism he would have wrote about it when he talked about heaven and hell.

Show me where he talks aboiut Zionism (not living in Eretz Yisrael, ZIONISM).  Or a Mechitza (not separating men and women, A MECHITZA).  Or any of the things that are in Shulchan Aruch that aren't in the Rambam.  To say something "isn't Judaism" because the Rambam didn't write about it is silly.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion

That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?

Correct.  He was one of the greatest Rabbis who ever lived and if it was Judaism he would have wrote about it when he talked about heaven and hell.

 Thats the same type of thinking as those who claim that the Oral Torah wasn't given by G-d, but made up by the Rabbi's say( G-d forbid). Their was allways, and allways will be a link by Rabbi to student, and so on, telling the Torah for generations, then their came a time when things were written down, at one time the Talmud, then another the Zohar, etc, but in addition to that even with the books their is allways a tradition and a link, one cannot say when asked who is your Rabbi- for him to say that its the Rambam, each Jew and expecially serious Torah scholar needs a link of where to get the Tradition, so where one learns from his Rav, who learned it from his Rav, etc. All the way back to Mt. Sinai.
  If you maake such claims, then tell me who is your Rabbi, and what link and tradition that he has which tell him soo with proof?

[Dr. Dan]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

[Dr. Dan]

just wanted to say, "I love you guys..."