Does Everything Happen For A Reason?

[jdl4ever]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

You didn't read what I said, I said that Gilgul is based on Idolatry.  So that means that these Rabbis who believe in Gilgul in my opinion, are wrong on this issue and have a belief based on Idolatry.  G-d forbid they are actually practicing idolatry!  They just are wrong on this issue and people have a right to be wrong, no one is perfect.  Tzvi, you have a faulty belief that most Charedim have, that a Rabbi must be perfect to be considered "Holy" or a "Gadol Hador" or a "Tzadik" or Saint.  The truth is that you do not have to be perfect to be a Holy Saint, in fact no person is perfect or right on everything and everyone sins sometimes.  The stories that survive the generations of Rabbis that died a long time ago are only the greatest miraculous stories about the Rabbi (sometimes exaggerated), none of the mundane stories survive of the mortal aspects of these Rabbis or how they weren't born a Gadol Hador but were regular people that made themselves great.  If you want to see real unedited stories about the great Tzadikim than read the Torah and the Tanach where it lists frequently the sins of the greatest of leaders but that did not stop them from being considered in G-d's eyes the greatest of Tzadikim.  That "hint" from the Talmud is no "hint" in my opinion, and you are seeing something that is not there simply because you want to see it.

My tradition passed down from my father and grandfather has no existence of Gilgul in it.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

[Dr. Dan]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

cut and paste the talmudic quote...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point  

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

cut and paste the talmudic quote...

 Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

[Dr. Dan]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

cut and paste the talmudic quote...

 Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.

I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

[jdl4ever]

Forget about it.  We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this.  Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

cut and paste the talmudic quote...

 Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.

I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?

I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.

[OdKahaneChai]

Forget about it.  We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this.  Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.

Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?

[jdl4ever]

"Based on Avodah Zarah" does not equal "Avodah Zarah".  No, I don't think they are practicing idolatry.  But I don't think it is a valid belief as the Vilna Goan didn't consider certain things about the Chassidim to be valid and as the Rabbis that argued in the Talmud didn't consider the other opinion to be valid frequently.  And as the Rambam didn't consider believing in astrology to be valid, and had a lot of trouble with Rashi implying that he believed in it so much that he refused to let himself believe that Rashi really believed in astrology but wrote that we should judge him favorably that he didn't believe in it.

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

[Dr. Dan]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

cut and paste the talmudic quote...

 Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.

I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?

I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.

you don't understand Tzvi..no offense to the guy..he's very boring...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

  , are you a lawyer?
  And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.

[Dr. Dan]

Forget about it.  We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this.  Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.

Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?

let me ask you...in this prayer that the words of reincarnation is quotes, you believe that just because it is written here that it can exist?

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

  , are you a lawyer?
  And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.

No i'm a periodontist..but thanks for the complement.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Forget about it.  We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this.  Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.

Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?

let me ask you...in this prayer that the words of reincarnation is quotes, you believe that just because it is written here that it can exist?

 Yea but this isn't the only place, their are whole books written and explaining this (ex- Shaare Hagilgulim), you just wanted one example and posted it yourself.

[jdl4ever]

Tzvi, I already stated that I don't believe in Gilgul despite some Rabbis believing in it.  That includes anyone from the Vilna Goan to R' Kahane himself.  And just because I don't accept a few things a Gadol says doesn't mean that I don't generally follow that Gadol on other issues.  Also I believe that the Zohar was a forgery despite it being the minority opinion among Rabbis today since I believe it is the truth.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

  , are you a lawyer?
  And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.

No i'm a periodontist..but thanks for the complement.

  , I hope its not what I think it is, it sounds like something as bad as lawyers.

[Dr. Dan]

Forget about it.  We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this.  Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.

Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?

let me ask you...in this prayer that the words of reincarnation is quotes, you believe that just because it is written here that it can exist?

 Yea but this isn't the only place, their are whole books written and explaining this (ex- Shaare Hagilgulim), you just wanted one example and posted it yourself.

and i already said that this doesn't prove of its existence...

furthermore..let's just say for arguments sake that it did...how are human being supposed to know what innocent child that was killed by natural disaster was reincarnated from something else? IT's a sorry excuse to be cold...

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

  , are you a lawyer?
  And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.

No i'm a periodontist..but thanks for the complement.

  , I hope its not what I think it is, it sounds like something as bad as lawyers.

no i save teeth and make new teeth straight to the jaw bone.

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

"Based on Avodah Zarah" does not equal "Avodah Zarah".  No, I don't think they are practicing idolatry.  But I don't think it is a valid belief as the Vilna Goan didn't consider the Chassidim to be valid.

But the Vilna Gaon believed in Gilgulim...

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

cut and paste the talmudic quote...

 Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.

I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?

I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.

you don't understand Tzvi..no offense to the guy..he's very boring...

 For how long did you listin? You dont understand, thats its a very good lesson, I know in the beginning he is talking about correcting oneself, and the satan fights hard to make Jews not to listin to it, but if you just fight that and go agains't it, then you will learn a lot and have joy by listining. - + you ask how can this or that, but if you want to start to understand then you have to learn Torah, so I request that you listin to this lecture.
 http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
 "Practical Essence of Tikkun"
 Also Im posting it again for other Jews to see and G-d willing (also according to their will, and wanting to do a Mitzva Gedola), learn.