Should Jews Participate In Senior Proms?

[DownwithIslam]

Well I guess we just have to differ on this. I don't think their is anything wrong with proms or things of that nature. Lets look at the bright side that these people arent gay. So many people are queer these days so we have to take what we get.

[Daniel]

Ya know, I'm now reminded of a great line from Ferris Bueller's Day Off where Ferris says, "Cameron is so tight, you can take a lump of coal and shove it up his butt and in a week you'd have a diamond." I'm now thinking we should take this line and replace "Cameron" with "Yakov."

There's a big difference between being righteous and being puritanistic! I think all these polls are an outlet for his latent feelings of misogyny and social insecurities.

[White Israelite]

In Israel people just go to dance clubs and dance to horrible loud noise.

You mean techno music? Yeah a lot of queers go there and have pacifiers in their mouth.

[Lisa]

Yacov is not a misogynist. 

[Mishmaat]

Ya know, I'm now reminded of a great line from Ferris Bueller's Day Off where Ferris says, "Cameron is so tight, you can take a lump of coal and shove it up his butt and in a week you'd have a diamond." I'm now thinking we should take this line and replace "Cameron" with "Yakov."

There's a big difference between being righteous and being puritanistic! I think all these polls are an outlet for his latent feelings of misogyny and social insecurities.

 

Tight? Maybe. Misogynist? No.

[Daniel]

Yacov is not a misogynist. 

Perhaps that's not the best word. But he has posted polls proposing banning everything from eyeliner and makeup to dancing in public. Perhaps that's not misogyny. I suppose that's just the "Jewish way."

[White Israelite]

Yacov is not a misogynist. 

Perhaps that's not the best word. But he has posted polls proposing banning everything from eyeliner and makeup to dancing in public. Perhaps that's not misogyny. I suppose that's just the "Jewish way."

Ban banning threads, and muslims.

[Daniel]

Yacov is not a misogynist. 

Perhaps that's not the best word. But he has posted polls proposing banning everything from eyeliner and makeup to dancing in public. Perhaps that's not misogyny. I suppose that's just the "Jewish way."

Ban banning threads, and muslims.

So you want me to make a poll asking if Muslims should be banned? 

Sure, if only Muslims can simply be banned by posting a poll. The Muslims all over the world will see our polls and say, "Hey, if the JTF polls say we've gotta be banned, who are we to object?" which will then be followed by them severing their own heads off screaming "Allah Akh *gurgle gurgle glub* bar!"

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

Yacov is not a misogynist. 

I agree 100% with you Lisa 

I am not quite sure how someone would think that of him 

[JTFFan]

In Israel people just go to dance clubs and dance to horrible loud noise.

I hate that too Yacov!

Dance clubs/night clubs are only "sexual" and completely immoral and abominable

[Dominater96]

I don't think male-female interdancing is prohibited for Gentiles so this question is strictly for Jews.

I think they should be banned and I'm very grateful I never went to the one my high school had. I was never into that nonsense even when I did believe in male-female interdancing. I knew I'm Jewish and that "proms" are not a Jewish thing.

Why do u keep wanting to ban things? Serriously grow up. It looks like u want to infringe on alot of our civil liberties, and be "big brother"

Aren't you a religious Jew? Would Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef whom you love so much approve of immodest male-female relations?

Yes I am a religious Jew. But I wont force religion on someone by banning something that they want to do. Ill tell them its wrong, but if they dont listen I wont stop them. Kiruv 101, dont force anything on anyone, let them realize with time what is wrong and right. And I dont understand, are you a fully practicing Jew? If you arent, then how would you like it if I came to your home on Shabbat and took your Television away, or something that you want to do on Shabbat but is Asur? You explain clearly why it is Asur, then if they dont want to do it you let it go, and slowly, gradually, hopefully they will become Jewish, through understanding, and philosophy. This is a problem that I have with some of the Kiruv Yeshivot, the ones that take troubled kids after high school. They either force it on the kid and he follows the rules, but then when he leaves Yeshiva after a year he is back to how he was before. Judaism isnt a dictatorship, or a cult. We dont ban things, let people not do them on their own. It may take time and understanding, but eventually they will realize the truth. And it isnt a cult either. We dont brainwash someone to become religious, he should realize it eventully no matter how long it takes. Rambam writes that you have to keep on trying to help you fellow Jew become more observant through talking nicely, and soft to him, not by yelling at him and embarrasing him.

[Dr. Dan]

Ya know, I'm now reminded of a great line from Ferris Bueller's Day Off where Ferris says, "Cameron is so tight, you can take a lump of coal and shove it up his butt and in a week you'd have a diamond." I'm now thinking we should take this line and replace "Cameron" with "Yakov."

There's a big difference between being righteous and being puritanistic! I think all these polls are an outlet for his latent feelings of misogyny and social insecurities.

Despite this whole thread, Yaacov is a good kid...

These views however are very Puritanical. I wouldn't mind an 80 year old man saying what Yaacov says..but a 20 something year old says to me what you said.  I used to think similar to Yaacov when I was maybe 18-19 years old.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

In Israel people just go to dance clubs and dance to horrible loud noise.

I hate that too Yacov!

Dance clubs/night clubs are only "sexual" and completely immoral and abominable

Thats around 3am 

[Just Erica]

In Israel people just go to dance clubs and dance to horrible loud noise.

I hate that too Yacov!

Dance clubs/night clubs are only "sexual" and completely immoral and abominable

That's not true, FTF. lol Dance clubs/ night clubs don't equal brothels. There are people who actually go to dance clubs JUST TO DANCE. Now if we were talking Strip clubs, I'd agree 100%.

[Dr. Dan]

I used to think similar to Yaacov when I was maybe 18-19 years old.

So you didn't go to the prom when you were 18?

I did go to the prom...but it wasn't in a limo or anythign fancy shmancy..I didn't kiss girls or hook up with them..I didn't do drugs...nor ever will..I never drank...

But I looked down on anyone that had a good time and didn't focus on their studies and on their future.  I made my personal life a little more puritanical...And I look back and I regret that I didn't loosen up..BUT...at the same time, am very happy that I didn't go hooking up wtih random girls and smoke and drink etc etc. I'm glad that I focused on my studies...and generally people who get to know me like what I'm made out of and not a total degenerate loser like the rest of the people who smoked pot in my highschool.

[Nic Brookes]

Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?

In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?

You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?

There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.

This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.

Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.

I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

[Vito]

We never had them, but who cares, its not a religious thing, of course Jews should go.

I only went to once "dance" in my lifetime and it was from Hebrew School. I didn't have a good time anyway because all the girls had dates so I had no one to dance with anyway.

I went to my prom without a date, ended up going with my friend and his date. I was very shy to dance with girls then anyway.

My mother's pastor is VERY stringent against dancing. Which my mother has a problem with because she loves swing dancing hehe

[Sarah]

All our events are girls only, a lot more fun. No smelly boys to ruin it.

That's a positive part of Nazi Islam, the modesty. But it is still a death cult.

Even at events that aren't just muslims Yacov. I have christian cousins, and they're modest too.

[Sarah]

All our events are girls only, a lot more fun. No smelly boys to ruin it.

That's a positive part of Nazi Islam, the modesty. But it is still a death cult.

Even at events that aren't just muslims Yacov. I have christian cousins, and they're modest too.

Are they Right Wing Christians? Maybe they would like JTF.

Not really, just practicing Christians.

Yacov, how about when the person sticks their hand out first would you refuse it if they were attractive?

[Nic Brookes]

Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?

In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?

You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?

There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.

This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.

Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.

I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

Dancing with a woman is sexual in Judaism so it should not be done with anyone except between a husband and wife in private.

When I was immodest, I just wanted to dance with women so I could hug them. If you're married, you can always hug your wife so it wouldn't be a big deal to dance with a woman. Anything involving hugging, dancing, or kissing should not be done between a Jew and Gentile of the opposite gender. The most lenient position is that it is okay to shake hands and that is what Chaim holds by and what Rabbi Kahane held by. I am more strict and wouldn't want to shake hands with an attractive women because I am a man and it is immodest. Chaim's sister holds by the more strict position and doesn't shake hands with men at all.

OK, thanks for clearing that up

Out of interest, why is it immodest in Judaism, and why is shaking hands immodest?

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

In Israel people just go to dance clubs and dance to horrible loud noise.

I hate that too Yacov!

Dance clubs/night clubs are only "sexual" and completely immoral and abominable

That's not true, FTF. lol Dance clubs/ night clubs don't equal brothels. There are people who actually go to dance clubs JUST TO DANCE. Now if we were talking Strip clubs, I'd agree 100%.

My brother dated a stripper, she was really a nice person, but never sleep with the clients. Funny thing was she was short and well  a little fat, but earnt 1500 a week. 

[Sarah]

All our events are girls only, a lot more fun. No smelly boys to ruin it.

That's a positive part of Nazi Islam, the modesty. But it is still a death cult.

Even at events that aren't just Muslims Yacov. I have Christian cousins, and they're modest too.

Are they Right Wing Christians? Maybe they would like JTF.

Not really, just practicing Christians.

Yacov, how about when the person sticks their hand out first would you refuse it if they were attractive?

My cousin in Israel kissed everyone in the room and asked if it was okay to shake my hand because she knows I don't like people to kiss me and I said it wasn't okay because she's a woman.

I used to kiss my cousins when i greeted them too, boys but my mum told me it wasn't good so now i just punch them on the shoulder and dash away to escape it.

My non related uncles don't shake my hand either, just nod.

[Just Erica]

In Israel people just go to dance clubs and dance to horrible loud noise.

I hate that too Yacov!

Dance clubs/night clubs are only "sexual" and completely immoral and abominable

That's not true, FTF. lol Dance clubs/ night clubs don't equal brothels. There are people who actually go to dance clubs JUST TO DANCE. Now if we were talking Strip clubs, I'd agree 100%.

My brother dated a stripper, she was really a nice person, but never sleep with the clients. Funny thing was she was short and well  a little fat, but earnt 1500 a week. 

That's a lot of money.  

[Just Erica]

Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?

In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?

You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?

There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.

This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.

Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.

I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

Dancing with a woman is sexual in Judaism so it should not be done with anyone except between a husband and wife in private.

When I was immodest, I just wanted to dance with women so I could hug them. If you're married, you can always hug your wife so it wouldn't be a big deal to dance with a woman. Anything involving hugging, dancing, or kissing should not be done between a Jew and Gentile of the opposite gender. The most lenient position is that it is okay to shake hands and that is what Chaim holds by and what Rabbi Kahane held by. I am more strict and wouldn't want to shake hands with an attractive women because I am a man and it is immodest. Chaim's sister holds by the more strict position and doesn't shake hands with men at all.

OK, thanks for clearing that up

Out of interest, why is it immodest in Judaism, and why is shaking hands immodest?

It is immodest because men are attracted to women and when men touch a woman, he can feel a sexual feeling if the woman is attractive. It's even worse because it can lead to more.

That's not true for everyone, Yacov.

[Lisa]

Erica, Yacov and Chaim's response would probably be that you wouldn't want to risk it anyway.  (However, Chaim does shake hands with women.  Yacov doesn't.)

Here's how I understand the whole issue of touch.  If men and women don't go around casually touching each other, then when they are with their spouses, it will be all the more special.