Other Tanakhaic era books

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

I heard that there were other books about Avraham that didn't make it into the Torah, does anyone know where these were found and what they say?

[Dexter]

What about Sefer HaYessira ?

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

One is Sefer HaYashar.

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How do we know about this book? the Torah was given at mount sinai, but where was this book given?

[judeanoncapta]

Sefer HaYashar is a midrash written in the middle ages. People are confused and think that it is the Sefer HaYashar mentioned in the Book of Samuel.

It is not.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

Sefer HaYashar is a midrash written in the middle ages. People are confused and think that it is the Sefer HaYashar mentioned in the Book of Samuel.

It is not.

so most of these books are midrash and were not given at Sinai?

[jdl4ever]

Sefer HaYashar is a midrash written in the middle ages. People are confused and think that it is the Sefer HaYashar mentioned in the Book of Samuel.

It is not.

so most of these books are midrash and were not given at Sinai?

Nope.  The oldest Medrishim were attributed to the Tanaim, depending on the name of the Medrish.  Tanah D'vei Eliyahum is and Pirkei D'Rebbe Eliazer are the olderst Midrashim.  PDE was written in the 8th century and attributed to R' Eliezer ben Hyrcanus, the early Tanna of the first generation.  TDE was also said by a different Tana around the same time period and written down later on.  The intermediate ones are attributed to the Amoraim.  For example the Medrish Tanhuma which was said by R' Tanhuma bar Abba Israeli Amora of the 5th century.  Part of the Medrish Rabba was composed by an Amorah.  The newest ones were written much later.  Exodus Rabba, Numbers Rabbah and Esther Rabbah are believed to have been composed much after the Amoraim.

[q_q_]

Sefer HaYashar is a midrash written in the middle ages. People are confused and think that it is the Sefer HaYashar mentioned in the Book of Samuel.

It is not.

so most of these books are midrash and were not given at Sinai?

Nope.  The oldest Medrishim were attributed to the Tanaim, <snip>

Tenaim (It think) meaning human tape recorders.  (you may say that only refers to the way they memorised oral tradition)

do you think they midrashic books up?

I always learnt that midrashim are from sinai.
The reason why some midrashim contradict others, is because they were not as well preserved as the oral law. They emphasis was always on preserving the oral law. The rest of the oral tradition was still there though.

Infact.. I recall reading in the kuzari, he talks about a huge oral tradition including scientific knowledge... most of which was lost.

[q_q_]

And a classic thing in the kuzari, he talks about the length of the lunar month in jewish tradition, about being a really really accurately transmitted tradition going back to king david.

29 days 12 hours 793 chalakim   (a very accurate approximation)
that`s
29 days 12 hours 44 minutes 3 and a third of a second.

If you look at that in days 29.xxxxxx  it is accurate to 4dp.

the western world did not get it that accurate until NASA sent tools up there.. (then got it even more accurate. But we use the tradition even though we know it is an approximation, same with pi).

I am not sure if the babylonians had it that accurate, I don`t think they did.  I did have a book by dr jeffrey satinover that listed all the ancient peoples, and they did not have it that accurate..

of course, it is possible that peoples used the calculation we have via jewish tradition. Some Jews had a background in astronomy because of experience with the jewish lunar calendar..


 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And a classic thing in the kuzari, he talks about the length of the lunar month in jewish tradition, about being a really really accurately transmitted tradition going back to king david.

29 days 12 hours 793 chalakim   (a very accurate approximation)
that`s
29 days 12 hours 44 minutes 3 and a third of a second.

If you look at that in days 29.xxxxxx  it is accurate to 4dp.

the western world did not get it that accurate until NASA sent tools up there.. (then got it even more accurate. But we use the tradition even though we know it is an approximation, same with pi).

I am not sure if the babylonians had it that accurate, I don`t think they did.  I did have a book by dr jeffrey satinover that listed all the ancient peoples, and they did not have it that accurate..

of course, it is possible that peoples used the calculation we have via jewish tradition. Some Jews had a background in astronomy because of experience with the jewish lunar calendar..


 

That is impressive.  ...  But wouldn't we get more than just four decimal places if or more accurate pi if we were given this knowledge in prophesy?  Just wondering that.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Sefer HaYashar is a midrash written in the middle ages. People are confused and think that it is the Sefer HaYashar mentioned in the Book of Samuel.

It is not.

About the midrash written in middle ages.  How does this work match up (or not) with ancient records and biblical records?

[q_q_]

And a classic thing in the kuzari, he talks about the length of the lunar month in jewish tradition, about being a really really accurately transmitted tradition going back to king david.

29 days 12 hours 793 chalakim   (a very accurate approximation)
that`s
29 days 12 hours 44 minutes 3 and a third of a second.

If you look at that in days 29.xxxxxx  it is accurate to 4dp.

the western world did not get it that accurate until NASA sent tools up there.. (then got it even more accurate. But we use the tradition even though we know it is an approximation, same with pi).

I am not sure if the babylonians had it that accurate, I don`t think they did.  I did have a book by dr jeffrey satinover that listed all the ancient peoples, and they did not have it that accurate..

of course, it is possible that peoples used the calculation we have via jewish tradition. Some Jews had a background in astronomy because of experience with the jewish lunar calendar..


 

That is impressive.  ...  But wouldn't we get more than just four decimal places if or more accurate pi if we were given this knowledge in prophesy?  Just wondering that.

note- it was not in prophesy, it was transmitted by sinai... That doesn't change anything, But anyhow..

Since the torah's purpose is not to transmit mathematics, we would only need/use an approximation.

Infact, for example, in halacha, I think we use Pi=3 , which is of course an approximation. But it is what we use even if we have it more accurately. (I think the RAMBAM says that.. And I think the written torah has a calculation that uses it as 3)

I am not sure the purpose of such an exact measure of a lunar month is. Even as accurate as we have it (within a second!).   Since we count months in complete days.
Maybe in the days pre fixed(automated) calendar.  the sanhedrin used it somehow to check that the testimony of the witnesses was consistent with what is possible astronomically/mathematically.
Or maybe hillel made use of it to make the fixed(automated) calendar.  Over many years a difference between solar and lunar builds up, so an accurate figure for the month, is important for making predictions decades or hundreds of years in the future.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

And a classic thing in the kuzari, he talks about the length of the lunar month in jewish tradition, about being a really really accurately transmitted tradition going back to king david.

29 days 12 hours 793 chalakim   (a very accurate approximation)
that`s
29 days 12 hours 44 minutes 3 and a third of a second.

If you look at that in days 29.xxxxxx  it is accurate to 4dp.

the western world did not get it that accurate until NASA sent tools up there.. (then got it even more accurate. But we use the tradition even though we know it is an approximation, same with pi).

I am not sure if the babylonians had it that accurate, I don`t think they did.  I did have a book by dr jeffrey satinover that listed all the ancient peoples, and they did not have it that accurate..

of course, it is possible that peoples used the calculation we have via jewish tradition. Some Jews had a background in astronomy because of experience with the jewish lunar calendar..


 

That is impressive.  ...  But wouldn't we get more than just four decimal places if or more accurate pi if we were given this knowledge in prophesy?  Just wondering that.

note- it was not in prophesy, it was transmitted by sinai... That doesn't change anything, But anyhow..

Since the torah's purpose is not to transmit mathematics, we would only need/use an approximation.

Infact, for example, in halacha, I think we use Pi=3 , which is of course an approximation. But it is what we use even if we have it more accurately. (I think the RAMBAM says that.. And I think the written torah has a calculation that uses it as 3)

I am not sure the purpose of such an exact measure of a lunar month is. Even as accurate as we have it (within a second!).   Since we count months in complete days.
Maybe in the days pre fixed(automated) calendar.  the sanhedrin used it somehow to check that the testimony of the witnesses was consistent with what is possible astronomically/mathematically.
Or maybe hillel made use of it to make the fixed(automated) calendar.  Over many years a difference between solar and lunar builds up, so an accurate figure for the month, is important for making predictions decades or hundreds of years in the future.

what was pi used for? why was it mentioned in the torah? Maybe it had to do with the temple and the precise measurements