Defending Torah Secrets

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

www.koshertorah.com/PDF/ekev-defending_torah_secrets.pdf

- I was asked by someone I know to find me something about the Rambam and Torah secrets, I found it, and thought why not share it also with the rest of you guys here. - This essay has a lot of things,- Torah secrets the Kabbalah, and also reincarnation, and Rambam.

[q_q_]

www.koshertorah.com/PDF/ekev-defending_torah_secrets.pdf

- I was asked by someone I know to find me something about the Rambam and Torah secrets, I found it, and thought why not share it also with the rest of you guys here. - This essay has a lot of things,- Torah secrets the Kabbalah, and also reincarnation, and Rambam.

Regarding that koshertorah site
I asked 2 scholars.. about his references,  one scholar was a maimonidean, another - a prof philosophy phd mathematical deduction.  They both said his references do not support that the RAMBAM was a kabbalist.

The rabbi on that site also wrote a very friendly, but ignorant shiur about rav kahane..

Infact, the rambam was such a rationalist, I think he even believed that the magic used by pharoh`s magicians in egypt, was illusion.


I did since find a reference to a claim that the rambam became a kabbalist later..

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.culture.jewish.moderated/browse_frm/thread/1303a07364994067/9a5aa1d79e10b44e?hl=en&lnk=st&q=q_q_anonymous+rambam+kabbalist#9a5aa1d79e10b44e

[email protected] wrote:
> This might be of interest.

> http://www.rabbiullman.com/07.htm


>  it mentions the Ritva and R Eliya chaim saying they saw documents
> saying he learnt secrets of kabbalah later in life. It gives refs to
> the statements of those rabbis.

The Ritva is not Rabbi Yom Tov ibn Ashvili, the famous commentator on
the Talmud, but rather Rabbi Shem Tov ben Avraham a Spanish kabbalist
the author of the Migdal Oz a commentary on Maimonides. The acronym
Ritva is an error whose source is a misprint in the title page of the
1524 edition of Maimonides.

toichen

[judeanoncapta]

True, the Rabbi on Kosher Torah had a whole shiur about Rabbi Kahane that made ti obvious that he had never heard most of Rabbi Kahane's speeches.

And the idea that Rambam was a kabbalist is ludicrous.

[q_q_]

True, the Rabbi on Kosher Torah had a whole shiur about Rabbi Kahane that made ti obvious that he had never heard most of Rabbi Kahane's speeches.

And the idea that Rambam was a kabbalist is ludicrous.

Well, it is not that "out there" because the author of the migdal oz says he saw evidence that he became one. The evidence may have been a forgery. He may have misread the evidence, ... It is a drop in the ocean of facts we know from what the RAMBAM Has written, which have no mysticism.



 

[jdl4ever]

The Rambam was the exact opposite as a mystic, as far away from one as you could get.  He was a rationalist like myself.  Yes, he wrote that the Egyptions didn't have real magic, but used tricks.  He writes that there is no such thing as magic and those who believe in this are fools; it is just tricks and illusions.  He writes that the Torah prohibition against Sorcery applies to anyone attempting practicing Sorcery since it is foolishness and has nothing to do with an effective magical spell which is impossible.  He also writes that astrology is nonsense and those who believe in it are fools. 

Although it depends what you mean about "Torah Secrets".  I was reading recently Tz'avah Harivash and surprisingly the fundamental concepts The Baal Shem Tov talks about are actually similar to what the Rambam wrote and I previously derived much of what he wrote from the Rambam's words before reading this Sefer even. 

[judeanoncapta]

Actually, jdl4ever if you listen to the Kabbalah and Galuth shiur that I put up. The Rambam wrote a letter to the Hakhamim of Marseilles where he speaks about astrology. It is worth hearing.

[jdl4ever]

Actually, jdl4ever if you listen to the Kabbalah and Galuth shiur that I put up. The Rambam wrote a letter to the Hakhamim of Marseilles where he speaks about astrology. It is worth hearing.

I already read the Rambam's letter previously.  I remember he had problems with what Rashi wrote about astrology and wrote that we must judge Rashi favorably and not let ourselves accept that he believed in astrology and gave a fuzzy answer to reread Rashi.  If you ask me I think and the Rambam really thought that Rashi believed in astrology and the Rambam thinks that Rashi was wrong but he doesn't want to say that he argues with Rashi.

[judeanoncapta]

Actually, jdl4ever if you listen to the Kabbalah and Galuth shiur that I put up. The Rambam wrote a letter to the Hakhamim of Marseilles where he speaks about astrology. It is worth hearing.

I already read the Rambam's letter previously.  I remember he had problems with what Rashi wrote about astrology and wrote that we must judge Rashi favorably and not let ourselves accept that he believed in astrology and gave a fuzzy answer to reread Rashi.  If you ask me I think and the Rambam really thought that Rashi believed in astrology and the Rambam thinks that Rashi was wrong but he doesn't want to say that he argues with Rashi.

The best part of that letter is when he says that reason for the collapse of the first Jewish commonwealth AND the reason our exile has lasted so long is because our forefathers put their trust in astrology instead of concentrating on learning warfare and military strategy.

That statement alone is enough to put any Charedi into a tailspin.

[jdl4ever]

Wow, I'm glad you posted that!  The Charedi site I read the letter from left out that part of the letter .... I wonder why   

[judeanoncapta]

Wow, I'm glad you posted that!  The Charedi site I read the letter from left out that part of the letter .... I wonder why   

Being a Charedi means never having to hear the other side.

The Other side is censored.

[jdl4ever]

Being a Charedi means never having to hear the other side.

The Other side is censored.

That's a good one!    The Charedim also tend to hate when a layman learns the Rambam.  My Rabbi tells me "the Halacha isn't like the Rambam, go learn the Shulchan Aruch instead".  I think the Rambam's works are far superior and far well written and supported than the S.A. by a long shot. 

[jdl4ever]

www.koshertorah.com/PDF/ekev-defending_torah_secrets.pdf

- I was asked by someone I know to find me something about the Rambam and Torah secrets, I found it, and thought why not share it also with the rest of you guys here. - This essay has a lot of things,- Torah secrets the Kabbalah, and also reincarnation, and Rambam.

Tzvi, every paragraph in that essay was complete nonsense without any Torah proof whatsoever to base his assumptions on.  This is why I will never be a Kabbalist since they write essays like this one full of nonsense without even one decent Torah argument.  The best he can do is say that R' Sadyah Goan didn't really mean it when he said that reincarnation is nonsense?  Well, give me some proof if you are going to make a wild assumption like that.  Also prove that the Rambam knew the Zohar like he claims (which was never from R' Shimon Bar Yochai).  It was actually the forger of the Zohar who copied from the Rambam the names of the 10 angels, not the other way around. 

[judeanoncapta]

Being a Charedi means never having to hear the other side.

The Other side is censored.

That's a good one!    The Charedim also tend to hate when a layman learns the Rambam.  My Rabbi tells me "the Halacha isn't like the Rambam, go learn the Shulchan Aruch instead".  I think the Rambam's works are far superior and far well written and supported than the S.A. by a long shot. 

Truer words were never spoken.

[q_q_]

www.koshertorah.com/PDF/ekev-defending_torah_secrets.pdf

- I was asked by someone I know to find me something about the Rambam and Torah secrets, I found it, and thought why not share it also with the rest of you guys here. - This essay has a lot of things,- Torah secrets the Kabbalah, and also reincarnation, and Rambam.

Tzvi, every paragraph in that essay was complete nonsense without any Torah proof whatsoever to base his assumptions on.  This is why I will never be a Kabbalist since they write essays like this one full of nonsense without even one decent Torah argument.  The best he can do is say that R' Sadyah Goan didn't really mean it when he said that reincarnation is nonsense?  Well, give me some proof if you are going to make a wild assumption like that.  Also prove that the Rambam knew the Zohar like he claims (which was never from R' Shimon Bar Yochai).  It was actually the forger of the Zohar who copied from the Rambam the names of the 10 angels, not the other way around. 

that is absurd.. The RAMBAN(with a nun) was a great rabbi, and a kabbalist. 

Rav Yosef Karo accepted Kabbalah.  The RAMCHAL was a kabbalist and great rabbi..  The Maharal.

They don`t just write nonsense like those websites.

I did actually speak to a Maimonidean that rejected RAMBAN completely, as well as any other rabbi that dealt in kabbalah.. infact he rejected most ashkenazi rabbis, and alot of sephardi ones. He even rejected the well loved sephardi "Ben Ish Chai".  If you are really of that position, then fine. But to say you won`t be a kabbalist because they write rubbish essays, is just ridiculous on many levels.  Firstly, chances are you would not be a kabbalist even if you wanted to be.. and that is not an insult.. but there really are not many kabbalists. Secondly, using them as examples of kabbalists, to reject kabbalah, is ridiculous.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

First of all those who reject the Kabbalah could be in the category of Kofrim, its funny (mostly sad) how some "rationalists" reject allmost every other opinion and vagly find something to prove their point from the Rambam. They are usually the ones who turn to haskallah, reform and conservative, because they are too proud of themselves and cant submit to those who are smarter then them and the tradition that is recieved.

[q_q_]

First of all those who reject the Kabbalah could be in the category of Kofrim, its funny (mostly sad) how some "rationalists" reject allmost every other opinion and vagly find something to prove their point from the Rambam. They are usually the ones who turn to haskallah, reform and conservative, because they are too proud of themselves and cant submit to those who are smarter then them and the tradition that is recieved.

Don`t change the subject to discussing a Maimonidean.

You posted a stupid website to start the thread.  That is the discussion. 

[jdl4ever]

www.koshertorah.com/PDF/ekev-defending_torah_secrets.pdf

- I was asked by someone I know to find me something about the Rambam and Torah secrets, I found it, and thought why not share it also with the rest of you guys here. - This essay has a lot of things,- Torah secrets the Kabbalah, and also reincarnation, and Rambam.

Tzvi, every paragraph in that essay was complete nonsense without any Torah proof whatsoever to base his assumptions on.  This is why I will never be a Kabbalist since they write essays like this one full of nonsense without even one decent Torah argument.  The best he can do is say that R' Sadyah Goan didn't really mean it when he said that reincarnation is nonsense?  Well, give me some proof if you are going to make a wild assumption like that.  Also prove that the Rambam knew the Zohar like he claims (which was never from R' Shimon Bar Yochai).  It was actually the forger of the Zohar who copied from the Rambam the names of the 10 angels, not the other way around. 

that is absurd.. The RAMBAN(with a nun) was a great rabbi, and a kabbalist. 

Rav Yosef Karo accepted Kabbalah.  The RAMCHAL was a kabbalist and great rabbi..  The Maharal.

They don`t just write nonsense like those websites.

I did actually speak to a Maimonidean that rejected RAMBAN completely, as well as any other rabbi that dealt in kabbalah.. infact he rejected most ashkenazi rabbis, and alot of Sefaradi ones. He even rejected the well loved Sefaradi "Ben Ish Chai".  If you are really of that position, then fine. But to say you won`t be a kabbalist because they write rubbish essays, is just ridiculous on many levels.  Firstly, chances are you would not be a kabbalist even if you wanted to be.. and that is not an insult.. but there really are not many kabbalists. Secondly, using them as examples of kabbalists, to reject kabbalah, is ridiculous.

Yes, you are correct.  That was rash of me to do.  I wouldn't accept much of Kabbalah anyways regardless of this essay.  As a defense to the Ramban, I think he was fooled into accepting the Zohar since there is a story that 2 witnesses went to him and swore that they saw R' Lion's manuscript and it was written by R' Shimon Bar Yochai and that is the only reason why he accepted it since originally he didn't believe that there was really such a manuscript.  In reality, the witnesses lied.

[q_q_]

Sources I have heard/read, (not primary sources) say that the RAMBAN was skeptical of the zohar.

I read that on the net, and heard it in a shiur from rav bar hayyim.

I can try and find sources.

Anyhow, The RAMBAN was a kabbalist despite the zohar. So your argument that the RAMBAN was fooled into believing in the zohar, is not relevant.